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Why Does America Need Winners and Losers? | Rev. Michael Thompson
16 Plays6 days ago
What if the same theology that makes people fear God also makes them afraid to see a doctor? This week's guest, Reverend Michael Thompson — an ordained Episcopal priest and corporate attorney based in Boston — joins us to trace the through-line between punishing religious frameworks, political authoritarianism, and a public health crisis hiding in plain sight.
We cover a lot of ground: from the "dad-in-a-bad-mood God" that conditions people to expect judgment, to the zero-sum logic that makes Americans think someone has to go to hell for heaven to mean something. We talk about why cancer patients hide their diagnoses, why depression is still shameful, and why the pediatrician who makes kids go home whistling might be practicing the most important medicine of all.
And we ask: can love — as a choice, a practice, a civic and biochemical act — be the path out?
Chapters:
- 00:00 — Introduction
- 01:36 — When people act against their own interests
- 02:07 — The punishing God and fear-based faith
- 07:31 — Love as a biochemical reality
- 10:18 — Divide and conquer: how fear destroys community
- 15:25 — Why authoritarianism is tempting
- 16:31 — America's need for losers
- 19:25 — Grace and why Americans can't accept it
- 20:20 — What facing mortality clarifies
- 28:49 — Spirituality and physical health
- 29:50 — Trust as the foundation of medical care
- 33:50 — Two Bostons: cancer care and the inequality of fear
- 37:59 — Addiction, depression, and the "just fix yourself" culture
- 39:13 — The hardest kind of love
Tags: public health, theology, Episcopal, faith, mental health, cancer, trust, community health, democracy, grace, love, stigma, fear, authoritarianism, wellness
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Transcript
Introduction of Reverend Michael Thompson
00:00:06
Speaker
So I am thrilled as always have my friend and colleague, Reverend Michael Thompson um to talk about ah interesting intersections of his career and life with public health.
Michael's Career and Public Health Intersection
00:00:25
Speaker
And ah Michael is very interesting because he is both an ordained Episcopal priest in Boston and a corporate attorney in Boston. So the two identities ah conflict and reinforce in fascinating ways that make him a very interesting and thoughtful person.
Impact of Stress on Civic and Religious Life
00:00:43
Speaker
And I'm very grateful for your ideas as always. So we've been talking for a long time about the current political stresses of the moment and also the impact on civic life, religious life, public health, and kind of a as with stress as an underlying factor that ties these things together, both the
00:01:08
Speaker
the stress on society, but also the internal stress that people are feeling, the misalignment with culture and
Self-Harming Behaviors and Societal Misalignments
00:01:15
Speaker
values. And you're an expert on all of these things. um So ah where shall we go this? I'm not sure how expert I am. You are you are you are an expert. ah So what so ah what is at the top of your list of things that you most worry about that or that you anticipate will become really possibly dangerous or chronic?
00:01:39
Speaker
strains on people that you see emerging? Well, I think well what we're seeing is a lot of folks who are really supporting things that are against their own interests. They're really working against themselves. And there's ah there's a lot of sort of strange, ultimately self-harming behavior that I think folks think they're doing the right thing. They're doing what they're supposed to they're supposed to do, but they're not realizing that they're they're hurting themselves. what's What's a good example? What do you what do you have in mind? Well, I mean, I think from ah from a kind of religious theological perspective, this idea of...
00:02:25
Speaker
a a God who is sitting there waiting to kind of punish anyone for whatever bad thing they've done, or a God that wants us to sit there and sort of stare at each other and say, oh, well, you're bad because of this and you're bad because
Contradictions in Religious and Societal Behaviors
00:02:40
Speaker
of that. Is this Old Testament God?
00:02:42
Speaker
No, I mean, i the did doctrinally, God is the same God in both books. um I think it's it's really more about how humans understand God than it is who God is or God changing. But they you know where we're we're in the Easter season, so we're reading a lot of now that a lot of the texts are actually Jesus's last conversation with his disciples in the Gospel of John. And the whole thing is about love each other.
00:03:11
Speaker
And then we turn around and it's like, well, you're not really American. You don't belong in this country. So we're going after immigrants, even though that that you want to talk Old Testament, New Testament, the Bible is actually clear in both that you're supposed to welcome the stranger.
00:03:27
Speaker
um but A lot of these these ideas of condemnation punishment the weakness of compassion the ah weakness of showing love i think all of these ideas are one they're just against christianity but they're also just they're self-harming it's why would you want to be people who are not compassionate why would you want to foster that does Do you think that that arises because too many people were raised with toxic
Perception of God: Punitive vs. Loving
00:04:01
Speaker
dads? It sounds like dad in a bad mood. Dad in a bad mood is all about don't do this, don't do that. You'll get punished for this, you'll get punished for that.
00:04:10
Speaker
Sit up straight, eat rituals. <unk> that That's the God you're talking about. Yeah, that's interesting because ah that's an interesting way of putting it because it it it also um puts the spotlight right on this idea of God the Father. And...
00:04:25
Speaker
God the Father is sitting in judgment. And it really is like God is kind of a boogeyman waiting behind every corner. For a gotcha moment. Yeah, to be like, you did that. And that's not, that's not.
00:04:40
Speaker
One, that's not who I want God to be. That's not a that's not a God that I want to worship. A God who's who's waiting to celebrate you tripping up? Right. that That doesn't seem like a healthy God. It's unworthy behavior of God. well it's god's god it's yeah God didn't go to after-school programs enough.
00:04:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, it's not who we're told God is yeah in the Bible. I mean, we're told God is love. And then Paul writes, love is patient, love is kind. love Love does not rejoice in wrongdoing. Like God's not sitting there waiting for you to screw up so that he can punish you for it.
Trust and Love in Society's Health
00:05:19
Speaker
Mm hmm. i think I think God is actually trying every possible conceivable way to love us, to view us, to it in to have us view ourselves as the precious beloved people God views us as.
00:05:38
Speaker
We just have a lot of trouble with that. And you think if we did, ah our stress levels would go way down because we wouldn't be worried about, oh if I make a mistake, then I will be arrested, ejected, bundled into a black van, you know. Yeah. Have my ventilator disconnected, right?
00:05:57
Speaker
We could have trust. We could trust because then if we remove from the equation, What one person's trying to get from another, or if we remove this idea of um being constantly on guard to for doing something wrong and being punished for it, then we're actually truly free to love, which is the thing we're commanded to do, love one another.
00:06:25
Speaker
as I has have loved you, so you should love one another. where That stuff actually frees us to love because then we can trust that the are the people who are providing care for us have our best interest in heart and are not beholden to some insurance company. right um We can trust that the the leaders in power will use their power in a way that is just and fair and oriented toward all the things that this country is was founded on and is supposed to honor. Well, and i would argue love is also biochemical. It's you know all the endorphins of a great hug, you know or a kiss with somebody you care about is
00:07:11
Speaker
it transforms your day and lowers your stress levels and your heart rate and your blood pressure and everything. It's a medical thing to be loved by someone. And conversely, to be constantly on alert that you might be arrested, shot, deported, leaves you unable to have all the goodies, the biochemical goodies. And you end up either depressed or anxious or constantly second guessing yourself, lacking confidence, right?
00:07:39
Speaker
this This is what you're talking about. It's a whole country on edge. Well, now you've got me on one of my favorite topics. Here we go. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay. So you're right. That that type of love, um you know the affection, all of those things are things we need, community, and at the core of every type of love,
Division, Othering, and Community Undermining
00:08:00
Speaker
if it is truly love.
00:08:01
Speaker
Whether it's your family love, whether it's romantic love, whether it's sexual love, if it's truly love, at the core of it is that universal love that Jesus is talking about that's all throughout the Bible. um It's that love...
00:08:17
Speaker
that honors the dignity of each person that sees God in each person. And what you're talking about are ways that that becomes manifest and gets expressed. And that's the thing that we're, we should be driving toward is not seeing, not looking for uh,
00:08:40
Speaker
other people who are enemies or who are them versus an us, but looking for the divine, the beauty, God, whatever you want to, however you want to describe it in each person.
00:08:53
Speaker
Well, and it also works against fear of the other. so So what you're describing too is a fearful culture where everyone's afraid that someone else, an other, different race, different language, something else is a threat.
00:09:08
Speaker
Or in our community, we don't want those people in our community because they're going to corrupt the children or something. or um it's a kind of uh hatefulness that people thrill to also like uh let's generate some fear in people and see what that looks like it's like pulling wings off butterflies it's just enjoying the cruelty and i think there's been a big uptick in that just the the sadism of it all Well, and they reinforce each other. So if, if I know that my, my baser instincts will lead me to prioritize my self-interest over my neighbor and view them as the enemy. then I'm also conditioning myself for them to view me the same way. And so there's no trust. There is no love there. There can't be. Because right now, where we're viewing each other as enemies.
00:10:02
Speaker
And if everyone's an enemy, that's awfully lonely.
Civil Society and Relational Interactions
00:10:07
Speaker
And it's not relational, it's transactional. Well, and it's anti-democratic and anti-American.
00:10:15
Speaker
it's It's the very opposite of community. It's let's not see what we have in common either politically, economically, or any other way, and just divide, it's divide and conquer, right?
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it, it, it the whole fundamental, the, everything that stands at the core, the, these Lockean ideas that they're, you know, there's a state of nature and a state of war, and so because of those things, we choose to live in civil society,
00:10:44
Speaker
And choosing to live in civil society, by definition, is choosing a
Alignment of Political Principles with Religious Teachings
00:10:48
Speaker
community. We're choosing rules that we're going to abide by in and a way that we're going to relate to each other. That's intended to be relational. That's how civil society works. So it's not just, um I mean, you know, I'm i'm on about the the theological pieces of it. And, you know, Jesus says love each other, but it's also actually at the core of the political principles that this country is founded on and those political principles separate from religion. Because as you know well, I hate to hear yeah the United States is a Christian nation. It's getting louder and louder that voice.
00:11:24
Speaker
um But do you think um that also this this idea works against um DEI, the idea that ah there's one right way, which is white male, but unless a patriarchal dominant white male, and everybody else better fall in line in the hierarchy and take the orders that you're given?
00:11:46
Speaker
Otherwise, there's going to trouble. And so people who are ah different in so in on any dimension represent a threat to that view.
00:11:57
Speaker
Well, you can't you can't have power dynamics and love. You can't have them both. So this is another thing that that's evident, that's at least evident to me throughout the Bible, is God is relational. There are tons of of times where God is God. God can do anything and chooses to do otherwise or chooses to relate or limit in some way to be in relationship. This is actually the whole core of Christianity, that God chose to limit God's self
00:12:31
Speaker
God's divine bigness and put that, constrain that within a human so that God could be in relationship with with us. That's that. So if God, the the most powerful being in the universe, the creator of everything, if God can be humble, God can limit God's self, then we ought to be able to do the same, you would think.
Influence of Blame Culture
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:00
Speaker
Well, and I think also um it's these are also ah cultural lessons that children pick up. So they when they see love and inclusion demonstrated, they mimic.
00:13:13
Speaker
and Likewise, when they see exclusion and hatred and othering demonstrated, they mimic that too. so i you know There've been playground games of like let's attack the brown kid or like that kid's clearly Latino, let's like draw a circle around them and like maybe pelt them with some rocks. you know It's happening all over.
00:13:35
Speaker
Kids know what kind of culture they live in. Oh, yeah. I mean, these are the same messages. These are the religious messages we give to kids. We give we give them a God yeah who is dad who's waiting for you to screw up so he can punish you. right We give them a God who's a disciplinarian. And so that that's a God to be feared. yeah not not the Not the God that you run to when you say, Dad, I'm in trouble. I need your help.
00:14:03
Speaker
And why is that? is that Is it that there's a new level of insecurity in America, that people need this kind of paternal, disciplinary figure because they're increasingly afraid? Or is it that...
00:14:19
Speaker
you know American values like courage have just gone out the window and it's it's every it's everyone for themselves. and Then we need an enforcer. right We need you know the great white man in the White House to be the enforcer. right yes right because yeah There's some parallels here. yeah i mean i'm not sure i think the expression is new. I'm not sure. that the the cause is new necessarily um nor is it do i think it's particularly american i think it's it's a really religion and politics and all these things get really difficult when there aren't black and white yes or no answers and there isn't do this and don't do that
00:15:05
Speaker
that's that that That type of religion I'm always speaking
Societal Structures and Zero-Sum Mentality
00:15:09
Speaker
against. It's not like God's got a list of things you need to do and a list of things you need to not do, and they're fixed lists that are true in all circumstances. It's more complicated than that because relationships are complicated. The point is to be in relationship, in conversation with God about what one should do or not do.
00:15:32
Speaker
It's the same thing with with politics. The democracy sounds great. We all want freedom. That sounds wonderful. But to have freedom, you need to have civics, you you need people engaged, you need people to vote, you need people to pay attention, you need people to care about what's going on in other parts of the country and other parts of the world. Now that starts to sound like a lot of work.
00:15:53
Speaker
That's a lot of work. Isn't it easier if someone just tells me? And so you get folks who are like, yeah, you know, a dictator for a day whatever. Years or forever might not be such a bad idea because at least it's someone I don't have to think. I don't have to engage. i don't have to research whether this thing is true or that thing is true. i don't have to think critically.
00:16:17
Speaker
Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Yeah. I also see a role for blame because this culture is built on winners and losers. ah Other countries are not necessarily um the idea that there's a safety net, that everybody gets universal healthcare, care everybody gets a certain basic education. And in America, those are all commodities and optional and you can get them if you have money. But also the system, the American idea requires losers. It requires there to be people who can point to the losers and go, I'm so glad I'm not that.
00:16:51
Speaker
Right. ah And that's where that piece of blame is also part of the structure that props up authority. Right. Like, let's let's find some people to kick to the curb and then we can all feel better. Right.
00:17:05
Speaker
Well, that then infects religion. Yeah, exactly. did No one will say this, I don't think, or not many people will say this. But there is this sort of weird underlying notion that for me to get into heaven, someone's got to go to hell.
00:17:19
Speaker
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. That's interesting. Do you encounter that? Do you encounter that? Like I said, it's sort of built into how people talk about it Like there there's some sort of... Americans, you mean? You hear it elsewhere. Well, I would say Americans. um Yeah.
00:17:37
Speaker
yeah I mean, the i just couldn't say one way or another out outside of America on this particular issue. But the idea that my entrance into heaven is somehow cheapened if God gives it to everyone.
00:17:54
Speaker
Well, why can't God just say, all right, there is no hell. Everyone goes to heaven. People don't like that idea because there's there's that need for a zero sum. for Someone's got to get punished. Someone's got to lose. someone It's a game show. It's game show.
00:18:09
Speaker
I need to be told that I'm good. i did what I was supposed to do. i am holy. And that person is not. Right. Or answer the question correctly. and I get the $10,000 gift. yeah Right. Yeah.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this also reminds me of the Calvinist idea of the elect, you know, like people are wealthy because they're good and they're good because they are wealthy and the poor, therefore, are sinful. It's the whole idea of debt, debt, both spiritual debt and financial debt.
00:18:39
Speaker
To be in debt is to be in sin, right? Like in some ways. It's an entirely self-congratulatory religion. Like American Christian, main i don't mean mainstream, I mean the televangelist Christian religion, so-called Christian, is all about you know financial success.
Facing Mortality and Life's Priorities
00:18:59
Speaker
Like, be like me, holy like me, and you too can have a private jet. yeah And you know if you if you buy this spirit water, bed yeah exactly then you'll get into heaven. Yeah.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so what are these overly simple solutions to this problem of fear and other? Is that what that is? I think so. I mean, they they're
00:19:24
Speaker
probably Americans in particular. really struggle with the concept of grace. We talk about a lot. I mean, it's especially the Christian context, it's all about grace.
00:19:36
Speaker
But grace is you can't earn it You can't buy it. It has to be freely given from the person who provides the grace. That's the whole point. god god God's graciousness is God freely gives to us, not because we've done anything right, not because we've earned it, not because we paid for it, just because God is God and God wants to. That's that's the whole thing.
00:20:03
Speaker
o That does not sit well with, I think, how people view our political system, how people view our economic system. ah There's gotta be winners and losers.
00:20:16
Speaker
And Grace doesn't have that. I happened to come across a James Van Der Beek's last recording last night. I watched it.
00:20:27
Speaker
And in his ah terminal illness, he came to realize that all of his previous identities meant nothing, either as an actor, as a husband, as a caretaker of the land. what What he learned was that he's simply worthy of love and that It was enormously simplifying for him just to know that he's because he exists, that's enough.
00:20:53
Speaker
um and that you know To be worthy of love because you exist is plenty. ah and i'm I'm seeing this also in cancer survivors, people who have done the work of surviving cancer.
00:21:06
Speaker
Many are the most clear people spiritually. They are gentle, graceful, kind, clear, unworried, unbothered.
00:21:20
Speaker
They simply have simplified everything about their life. And this whole winners and losers things to them seems silly. Like it's not it. They're just happy that they are here for yet one more day.
00:21:31
Speaker
And ah would you like um some sugar with that? You know, like, yeah you know, ah how is your coffee? That's it. And that just the simple pleasures of being alive, waking up and going, yet it's another day. oh and like, it's kind of cloudy to today.
00:21:45
Speaker
That's the joy of that alone is made possible by the the cancer experience, like seeing your mortality face to face and going,
00:21:56
Speaker
how i have been living up to this point is meaningless it's silly there there is a clear eyedness that comes from facing your own mortality that just cannot be paralleled and we we One way we try to approximate it is that's that's the idea on Ash Wednesday, that you come face to face with your mortality. That's why some clergy person or priest or other puts dirt on your head and says basically says, you're going to die. that's When we say, remember you are dust and to dust you shall return, it's remember you're going to die.
00:22:29
Speaker
Maybe we should have that. Maybe every day should be asked Wednesday or, or at least, uh, some piece of meditation in the morning would help, would help.
00:22:40
Speaker
Uh, I mean, just to clarify your, your purpose today is not to create winners and losers necessarily. Well, you're talking about right sizing everything.
00:22:51
Speaker
It's that, and I've, I'm guilty of this too. Someone cuts you off in traffic and it seems like. The worst thing that could happen, revenge must be taken. We live in the Boston area. You have been a passenger in my vehicle and you've seen me swear.
00:23:10
Speaker
There you go. like when they When they have a picture of a Boston driver in the criminal manual, they have my my it's my picture. There's a reason I pray so much. Yeah, it's ah I'm terrible. Yeah, and there's that...
00:23:23
Speaker
um That... that
00:23:28
Speaker
knee-jerk reaction in that moment, it seems like it's this big issue. But taking the time you're talking about, I mean, I hope you don't have to face your mortality a real way to get there. Unfortunately, some people have. But taking the time to really figure out, well, what's important What's really important? And you start to realize it's not all the things you think are important. it's It's not traffic. It's not how much money you have. It's not all of these things that we think we need for status, for whatever. It's not about earning. It's about being. And it's about
Universal Love and Relationships
00:24:04
Speaker
receiving. And to the point about belovedness, that's the thing we're receiving.
00:24:09
Speaker
the The message is God loves you. God wants you to know that God loves you. And that also means God loves everyone else, even when it's very hard for us to love them.
00:24:22
Speaker
So what's the barrier there? what's Is this a cognitive barrier? Is this habitual? is that how do Why why is this so hard for people to get to that place? I think this...
00:24:34
Speaker
thing people struggle with most in that equation is actually accepting the love for themselves and that prevents them from accepting the love for others oh that's nice i like that you know you have to you have to first be fully accept that you are fully beloved warts and all basically that that God, the universe, spirituality, the forces, whatever you want to call it, are in your corner cheering you on. They want you to succeed.
00:25:10
Speaker
And then you can start to, when you when you own that, you're there's there are no threats. You don't have to worry about anything. You have to earn anything. You don't have to do anything. And so that frees you to see, well, actually, if the universe, God, the forces are all doing that for me,
00:25:27
Speaker
They're doing that for Jerry and they're doing for that for Tom over there and anyone else. So what do you this this is a great description of sort of our current baseline, um but what do you see as future paths? And what are the, I guess I'm saying risk benefit, like what are the opportunities and the threats for how this all might evolve over the next year or five?
00:25:57
Speaker
um i mean, you're a visionary in a lot of ways. What what do what do you envision? Well, you know, from our conversations, one of my ah concepts that keeps ringing in my head is love is a choice.
00:26:11
Speaker
And that's that's one of the
Societal Divisions and Historical Comparisons
00:26:15
Speaker
paths. We can choose to love. We can choose a path that says, well, compassion isn't weak. It's the thing that we're called to do.
00:26:25
Speaker
we We have an opportunity where we could actually reverse course, even though it looks... looks real challenging and it looks like that's not the direction folks want to go.
00:26:37
Speaker
But it is a choice that we can make. um the The other extreme is continuing to let this stuff eat at us, and it eats at individual souls, and it it eats at the collective soul. We're really just harming ourselves by doing it. By supporting, you know, I'm gonna report my neighbor and have ice come cart them away. By supporting violence like this, by supporting needless war, all we're doing is harming ourselves.
00:27:10
Speaker
It's, it's, yes, there, the, the first, the initial harm you see is the harm that's being created toward others, but that harm really comes back and hurts you. It's, it is horrific. It is unexcusable. It, there is no justification for bombing a school and killing children.
00:27:29
Speaker
That was a horrific thing to do to them. And that kills our soul for having done it. Mm-hmm. Well, and it's there's no shortage of that in history either. You know, in the French Revolution, people turned on their neighbors and denounced them as anti-revolutionary. Same thing in Russia. um Same thing in Germany. Like, you know, that Jewish neighbor of ours, i don't know. You know, I think we should, you know, report them and anonymously.
00:28:00
Speaker
Right. Next thing you know, they disappear. And I will own right up front that the church has not frequently, has frequently landed on the wrong side of all of
Spirituality, Health, and Vulnerable Individuals
00:28:14
Speaker
those issues. I remember seeing pictures of churches where in Nazi Germany, where the altar frontal was a giant swastika.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:31
Speaker
I wonder if you have questions for me about how do I think about all this or or should push me to think about, it's like from a medical slash public health angle, what am I, am I missing something? but What am i am I thinking about the right things here? i i think so. um I'm,
00:28:49
Speaker
I'm more curious about the, the kind of the soul piece of it. Um, however, whatever terminology you want, you want to use for that, but really the, the health of, of one's spirit, spirituality, and soul, um, as a driver for, for physical health and mental law, mental health, I think is an easier jump to get there, but, um, you think it's pretty well established now that, um,
00:29:17
Speaker
prayer, some sort of spiritual life is beneficial for people, whether that's some external, like God is doing something or if it's just beneficial for the the person to do the exercise. But um yeah, I'm kind of kind of curious about where the spiritual piece fits into the health component for you. Well, for me, it's about um people who are vulnerable in whatever on whatever dimension.
00:29:43
Speaker
And I think first of children who are frightened or who broke a finger and you know are scared. And what does it mean? And to have an adult take them seriously and say, show me your finger, how did this happen? To ask gently, what can we do now? you know how What are you feeling like? you know one What we do? How can I help you? That's a start.
00:30:07
Speaker
um But that also extends to people who are vulnerable in all kinds of ways. People who are afraid to go to the ER because, you don't know what they're gonna put in me. Like when I go to that hospital, like i'm gonna come home with syphilis.
00:30:19
Speaker
ah um And the lack of trust that comes from feeling vulnerable. Like, I don't know if someone's out to get me or not. like So that's the first place that I go that that my calling as a medical person is to,
00:30:34
Speaker
address the people who are most vulnerable and who are most in need of sometimes even just really basic care. They don't need a $50,000 advanced antibody therapy for their tumor. What they want is someone to hold their hand and say, it'll be o okay.
00:30:51
Speaker
Right. And ah like, we're here to take care of you. ah I am with you. Yes. And like, and do you believe it or not? Like, or do you look at me like, I'm not so sure.
00:31:02
Speaker
Right. There's that. ah and that And that really translates into us rather than them. So when a caregiver genuinely cares for someone, one that makes that person us, right? it's They're no longer them. It's us.
00:31:19
Speaker
we are here We are here to take care of you. yep That's the whole point of health and hospitals. It should be. Yeah. Right? Well, that made those that hits on all the issues we talked about earlier. Trust yeah the... the that that crystal, that clarity that comes when you're facing your mortality, that the thing that matters is relationships and not all the other stuff.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah. i keep I often tell the story of my favorite pediatrician who treats little girls with asthma, right? And they come in terrified. It's the glint of needles and the smell of the rubbing alcohol, right? They don't want to be there.
00:31:58
Speaker
But they go home whistling and singing because they're not afraid anymore. Like their doctor they their doctor has befriended them and a trust bond has been established. And even though asthma or whatever they're in there for is not necessarily better that day, they go home.
00:32:17
Speaker
unafraid and the doc can't wait to come back to work the next day for the same reason like it's the relationship like the the building of trust with a person who was previously fearful is that's as good as an opiate right there and it happens often in the smallest moments i mean i think about um One thing that I'm sensitive to is that children are often afraid of God because we tell them to be afraid of God. And that extends to areas of the
Disparities in Medical Literacy and Access
00:32:51
Speaker
church. And um so when I interact with children, i want to make sure that they feel safe and loved and that they're not afraid. And I think of one of the things that... um
00:33:02
Speaker
So some of our our ushers do is if there's a if there's a kid in the service, they're usually in the back. And when the time comes up to bring up the collection, they'll grab one of the kids and say, do you want to come with me?
00:33:14
Speaker
That's nice. Minor, minor thing. But the act of going with someone who's very young, very small up to the altar, which is this sort of big imposing table. There's a guy standing behind it and all kinds of dresses and things. There's music happening. That's really intimidating.
00:33:31
Speaker
And to create that space that says you belong here too. So it's safety it's safety and trust and inclusion and you're okay as you are and you don't have to do anything. yeah Just be here. Yeah.
00:33:44
Speaker
and we're happy you're here yeah it's ah It's good for us that you're here. Yeah. Well, so i think also about ah medical literacy in Boston. So there's a bimodal distribution.
00:33:58
Speaker
um a lot of people in Boston are very educated and rather wealthy and somewhat privileged. And should they have a cancer diagnosis, I've seen kind of shocking behaviors like they march into their oncologist's office, waving the clinical trial on which they are demanding to be enrolled because for them, ah it's a commodity and they're going to buy it.
00:34:21
Speaker
Yep. ah And there's a lot of people like that in Boston. and And we, you know, they are the drivers of medical innovation.
00:34:32
Speaker
Like we are generating very expensive therapies that will never have widespread utility because they're far too expensive, but they're tailored. Oh, God, they're they're bespoke. They are custom cancer therapies for that person. and i'm goingnna cost them million bucks I'm sick, I'm sick, I'm rich. Heal me. Yeah. It's going to cost a million bucks, so it's definitely going to work.
00:34:52
Speaker
There's that. and Then conversely, there are people who are terrified. um They've heard the word cancer and that's all they know. ah and they know that they've got a lump and it's growing and it's possibly hurting and they are in denial perhaps, or their family members are telling them, you got to be seen for that. And they're like, no, I can't, I can't.
00:35:14
Speaker
on And there's a lot of people like that and they are not in the news. They are ah voiceless and overlooked and ignored.
Blame Culture in Healthcare and Trust Building
00:35:23
Speaker
And there's a lot of people in America like that.
00:35:26
Speaker
who go with untreated cancers or who are too afraid ah because it's just they're going to get blamed. Yep. Or their friends will drop them like, oh, God. Oh, yeah. You deserve that, didn't you?
00:35:42
Speaker
yeah Without saying so. But there's a definite like, what did you do? What did you do? or Or you need too much and I didn't sign up for this. Yes, exactly. ah Or you make me think about my own mortality way too much. yeah And so could we just like...
00:35:58
Speaker
you know, can we cool it for a while? I'll call i'll call you. I'll call you that. um And so no wonder it's terrifying for people because it it leads to social isolation and it leads to shame and stigma. And that's the reason people don't get cancer screening in the first place yeah because they're going to get blamed. It's a whole culture of blame for my health. I am blamed for having obesity. I am blamed for having cancer. It's like, it's the blame again. yeah Right?
00:36:25
Speaker
And so I see both. I see both the opportunity to heal people through trust and and you know making it okay just to be as you are, who you are.
00:36:37
Speaker
ah And I see also the the damage to people who experience medical judgment. They experience ah medical trauma from being told they're fat Yep. And you got to lose weight, even if they don't necessarily need to for clinical reasons, just like you're not thin enough.
00:36:58
Speaker
And doctors do this. Oh, yes, they do. And they do it to children. Yes. Right. So people grow up in fear of that. And so kind of what you're asking is a bit of a heavy lift, like changing the culture to have more trust and inclusion and just, you know, the sort of come as you are, you'll be fine. Yeah.
00:37:18
Speaker
That's a, we are not there. I mean, that's it that's similar to the the God the Father who is, I don't want to tell them because I'll get in trouble. And the God the Father that's like, I need to tell him because he can help.
00:37:34
Speaker
Yeah. I don't want to run to the doctor because I'm going to get blamed. I'm going to get bad news. They're not going to care that and my friends are going to leave me. All of these reasons. Versus...
00:37:47
Speaker
I'm having an issue. i I need help. I need someone to walk this path with me. And i can, I can trust that there are people and I, and there are people who will walk the path of me.
00:37:59
Speaker
And I've mentioned cancer, but it's the same thing for um addiction or depression. These are very stigmatized diagnoses. Like the idea that I'm taking an antidepressant may be something I want to conceal from even my closest friends because they'd be like, oh yeah, you need that, don't you?
00:38:18
Speaker
the The judgment, they're like, oh, you've got a problem. Right? And it's it's the solution is work the problem harder.
00:38:30
Speaker
So to snap out of it or um pray harder, whatever, whatever, ways whatever it was that would just sort of fix your, fix you. It's your problem that you're not praying hard enough. Yeah. Yeah. So there, there, there's always a, there's something wrong with you and why don't you go off and fix that and then come back and then I'll deal with you.
00:38:54
Speaker
But that's commodifying people too. Like you're fun to be around as long, as long as you're fun. Like, I like having you around as long as you're no trouble to me personally. Like, I don't owe you anything and you should be here to entertain me.
00:39:06
Speaker
Like, you used to be so much more fun, right? like Before you started drinking, you were such a nice person, right? You can hear it.
Loving the Hard to Love
00:39:16
Speaker
Well, there's this fellow I talk about sometimes. His name is Jesus. um he was He was talking about how it's easy to love someone who loves you. Yeah, of course. Love someone who hates you. Exactly. no exactly That's the challenge.
00:39:28
Speaker
Like, yeah, it's easy to be someone's friend when everything's light and everything's going great in everyone's lives and we're healthy and rich and beautiful. And it's much harder when someone comes to you and says, I've been diagnosed with cancer and I'm scared.
Conclusion and Invitation for Future Discussions
00:39:53
Speaker
You've been listening to The Fifth Column, a series of podcasts documenting the intersecting stresses of our time. I'm Gerry Dennis. Please tune in again soon.