Transcript
Speaker: Do you know who helps recruitment agencies recruit, Adele? It's Wingman Recruitment, flexible recruitment support built by recruiters for recruiters. More capacity, less pressure, better results.
Speaker: Learn more at wingmangroup.com.au and visit the services tab. Welcome to Recruitment News Australia for the 25th of August, 2026. We've got a slightly varied format today because Ross Klenner is away on leave for his big birthday. And so I'm running solo.
Speaker: We've recorded a question of the week that's an extended version that we think you'll really enjoy. Question of the week. Adele, how did your pre-recruitment life help your recruitment career?
Speaker: this is an interesting one to discuss, Ross, if you think about things like family and school, hobbies, interests, friends, prior jobs, all of those things had a huge contribution to any any of us and our character and definitely contributed to you know how we became as recruiters.
Speaker: Well, I ask because, i mean, I've known you quite a long time and we've been working together on ah RNA for more than three years. And we've had some of these conversations, but I think there's a lot more that you haven't told me. And frankly, I'm interested to know. and but Maybe some of the RNA listeners are as well. So should we start at the beginning? Why don't you just share a bit about your ah your family upbringing and what aspects there you think were important?
Speaker: with the benefit of hindsight, very important or influential in your choice of recruitment as a career and your success, really, in recruitment? It's almost a little bit of a this is your life story, right? Kind of, yes.
Speaker: I think for me, when I think about this, the first thing that comes to mind is my migrant parents. So what some people may or may not know is that I was born in Australia, but both of my parents were migrants to Australia And all of my family family heritage is overseas. My nationality is Anglo-Indian.
Speaker: And I think that's had a really big effect because they came, as many migrants do, ah back in the you know late 60s, early 70s, with very little money, ah very little assets, and had to work from the ground up, even after having somewhat established careers overseas. So having you know lived and worked and started to develop their own careers, having to kind of start again from the bottom in a new country.
Speaker: And that shaped me because I had to see them work really hard, you know, in some cases really physical jobs in order to pay the bills and get ahead and build themselves back up again. There's a level of resilience that any migrant child will recognise in me saying that.
Speaker: Yep. Well, I'm the complete opposite because on both sides of my family, the yeah the ancestors of mine came out from the UK in like the 1850s, like literally both of my mother's and father's side. So I couldn't have been, i couldnt I can't be much further from that. I think I'm a fifth generation, or was it sixth? I think I'm a fifth generation Australian. So Although my parents worked hard, certainly not in the way that your parents would have worked hard and you would have seen them working hard. I mean, my father ah had a public service job, like he was home by 4.30 every day. so
Speaker: ah I'm sure that wasn't your father's experience. So although my parents were influential, certainly it wasn't the same sort of influence that you've just described. But you did ah live and work overseas as well. I think that has a big impact, right? Well, yes, certainly. ah Let's talk about living first because my father took a job with the Fijian government at the end of 1976. So he and mum and myself, my three sisters, then moved to Suva, the capital of Fiji, where dad's job was. And I went to a local school, not an international school, in Suva in 1977 and 1978. So I turned 11 and 12 in those two years, year six and year seven at school.
Speaker: And that was incredibly influential because I went from living in mid-70s Hobart, where everyone looked like me, you know, whitey, and I went to Suva where I was the ethnic minority. You were a minority, yeah. Yes, completely. And so it was the ethnic Fijans, Melanesian, and then the Pajans,
Speaker: ethnic Indians whose ancestors or descendants had come from India to Fiji to cut the sugar cane. And so that was a very different environment. I mean, again, all the teachers I'd had in Hobart were all whiteys like me. And my first teacher in Fiji, Mr. Kong, was a Chinese Indian. And so, that's yeah, so it That was a massive, massive difference for me. And certainly I learned very early on to just treat people at face value. I didn't think of my schoolmates as, know, Australians or Fijians or I just treated them as friends. And certainly i had many more, let's say, non-white friends at school than I had white friends.
Speaker: Okay. We're talking about kind of those primary school years. For me, I actually moved a lot. So my parents separated and my both parents remarried and and there was quite a bit of movement. So I went to ah lots of different primary schools. I settled down by the time I went to high school, but I went to four, I think, different primary schools in that six years. and that that has a level of, again, resilience. But also I think I learned how to
Speaker: readjust and fit in again to things. You know, there's ah there's an existing kind of culture when you go to a school and and existing friendship groups and you have to break into that and you have to find a way to align yourself, keep keep true to yourself but find the group, find your tribe, so to speak. And yeah I feel like that's what I learnt from those early years of having to change schools often was to find a way to, you know, re-fit in and readjust into an ah existing ecosystem.
Speaker: h Yeah, ah you know, to me, I never really had that problem. It was pretty easy in Fiji because there were so many expat kids that went to that school that my classmates seemed like that was sort of fairly normal. When I returned to Australia at the beginning of 1979, I was in a school, not a school i've been to before because it was a high school, But certainly there were friends there from primary school. So it was you know it was never really an issue for me. I think it was when I went to university that where I was with different groups and I started being involved with extracurricular activities like theatre that that I really sort of expanded myself in terms of different groups of people with different interests.
Speaker: So on the stage stuff you're doing, like live theatre? Yes. Yeah. I mean, this all started in Fiji that I was Willy Wonka in the stage version of Willy Wonka. Sorry, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. i love that. Yeah. So that was that that gave me a lot of confidence. And then when I returned to Australia, I got involved in theatre. And when I went to uni, got very deeply involved. So The on-campus theatre group at the University of Tasmania is called the Old Nick Company. So I was heavily involved, uni reviews, theatre of the absurd, ah all all sorts of theatres. think I was involved in like four productions a year, whether it was on stage or backstage. I finished up being elected to the committee the Old Nick Company. I was president for two years. So I can say pretty confidently that I spent more time involved with Old Nick compared to paying attention to my studies. And I think ultimately, even though I did finish up ah graduating with a Bachelor of Economics, I put more of my career success in
Speaker: however you define it, down to really what I learnt in the old Nick company more so than what I learnt in lecture halls and tute rooms. Well, it's funny. We have this one in common, actually, you and I, because I also did live stage theatre. I also did ah dance and I did, you know, other elements to kind of, um you know, in that physical drama sense. And i think this one,
Speaker: Actually, I have a little thought process about this with recruiters. I actually think that recruiters are frustrated actors. I think actually what we do in many cases is a performance. There's a performance element to what we do in our role, whether that's trying to win business with a client or, you know, trying to win a candidate over into a job. I really think there is a performance element and it's why there's a lot of extroverts, I think, in the industry as well. You come across naturally more extroverts. But, yeah, this is an interesting one that I think does build confidence. I think you're right. Being on a stage and, and you know, having that theatre um exposure builds that confidence for you. it builds the ability ability, though, to think on your feet. Like I definite clearly remember those exercises and skills of, you know, theatre sports where you're thrown in and you don't know what's going to happen and you have to think really quickly how to respond to that and come up with an answer and a solution in a positive way to keep the conversation going. So, I think, you know, theatre for both of us, that's ah that's a huge impact to me.
Speaker: Yes, it certainly gave me confidence to speak in front of people, to learn how to articulate myself, to be clear, like all of those things that are important on stage, I think definitely helped me when I was on the phone in London, like at the age of 22, didn't know anything really about London or about working in an office. It was my first office job. And I think...
Speaker: kind of scraped by because I could sound more confident and capable on the phone than I really was, thanks to my theatre training. There you go I think the other thing at that time, you know, of of our lives, I think, is kind of working or starting those kind of part-time jobs.
Speaker: We've talked about this before on the podcast and how critical it is for young people to get part-time work, but I truly believe that that's a massive influence on, you know, setting your work ethic early, getting you to understand responsibility and and cause and effect. You know, if I don't do this, this doesn't happen. I started my career early part-time jobs in retail, which often had ah targets, you know, sales targets for the day of what you needed to reach. So I feel like that also influenced my skills and abilities in recruitment to work to a target, to be able to you know, have that goal and keep pushing hard to try and achieve it. You know, the drive, it came that that's where that came from. See, with my casual work, it it it definitely wasn't that because I worked casually at a Mitre 10 retail store.
Speaker: And when I started, I was 15. And everyone who I interacted with, whether they were another staff member or whether they were a customer, they were older than me. So what I did learn across the seven years I worked in that job was I learned how to deal with adults. And as a 15 and a half year old, when I started that job, I'd only ever dealt with adults in a sort of family or social setting. I'd never dealt with them in a more, let's say, formal setting like work or a hierarchical setting. And that
Speaker: Like I learned a lot in terms of um just not assuming anything, learning quickly, asking, because I knew nothing, of course, when I started, asking the customer to explain a little bit more about what they were looking for. So definitely that um that seven-year stretch doing that job, I think, was very, very important in particularly starting as a 22-year-old in recruitment where, Certainly most of my candidates were older than me and certainly all my clients were much older than me.
Speaker: What was the strangest request for an item at Mitre 10 that you got? oh I don't know. Come on Adele, that was like four decades ago. i i Well, what I do remember is this this was in the days before any structured OH&S. So, i mean, I think I got one lesson in how to use the docking saw and I almost sliced my finger off because because I was handling, not sorry, not on the docking saw, but I was handling guttering and I mishandled it and I didn't have gloves on it cut my finger really badly. So,
Speaker: Yeah, i was probably lucky I didn't have greater damage given all the potential ah ah dangerous type of situations that there were. or Yes, potentially. I won't say like i ever felt like it was dangerous, but potentially dangerous if you were misusing equipment around the store.
Speaker: Okay. And then the draw of, you know, having lived overseas as a child drew you back again. You lived in London and worked in London as well. Yeah, ah I mean, that that to me was a big factor. I mean, I ah i did get my first recruitment job within a month of arriving, which um which I was, I think, fairly lucky.
Speaker: But the urge to travel, think, point back to that stint in Fiji and feeling confident that I could operate in another country. I mean, obviously, there's not huge differences between England and Australia, so it wasn't exactly a massive cultural shock. But certainly what was a shock was moving out of home and me having to do all my own shopping and cooking and washing and everything that my mother still had done for me while I was a university student. So that was a shock.
Speaker: Did you think about coming home at any stages? Like how many times did you want to kind of quit and go home? No, I mean, I do remember being a bit homesick when my cousin, who I'm very close to and still close to, got married and I couldn't be there for the um for the wedding. And that was, i think, four months after I got to the UK. So certainly, i i do remember that. But I don't ever recall thinking I need to go home, mainly because i was only on a two-year visa. And I knew i started in January 89. I knew, well, the end of 1990 is it. I finished up leaving in September. So there was always this end in sight. And I just said to myself, we'll just stick it out.
Speaker: Yeah. I think travel is hugely significant. Obviously, our listeners would you know understand that anyone who's done and even a little bit of travel, the benefits for you as a person in general, for you as an employee, and obviously for you as a recruiter are immense. But For me, it's about the the cultural understanding, you know, understanding different cultures coming from a migrant background, a different background is one thing, but then knowing what it feels like to be uncomfortable in a new place, understanding, you know, how difficult it might be to communicate, ah what it's like to be understood, just to get your message across and to to function and feel normal and not not scared and not frightened and all of those things, you know, that's what I think travel teaches you as well. Yes, ah the without doubt. And I positively discriminated in favour of people who I interviewed that were interested in being a recruiter if they'd got outside their comfort zone with travel. Now, it may have just...
Speaker: meant that they moved from, don't know, country New South Wales to Sydney. Like it didn't necessarily have to be overseas, although that was a plus, but people that weren't just coming from mummy and daddy's house in Mossman to be a recruiter in George Street. So I think that, you know, those those were the things that I looked at.
Speaker: um What about the sort of second half of your career, becoming a leader, moving from being a recruiter to being ah a leader, I think we both became parents at roughly the same time in our recruitment careers. So what what impact did that have, would you say, on your post-parent, or you're not post-parent because you're still a parent, but once you've returned to work? Yeah. I think this is the one I probably underestimate the most in some ways because, Before I was a parent, and anyone listening to this who's not a parent will probably think something similar. you you don't really understand what you learn as a parent. Like you just kind of go, yeah, some people are parents and some people are not parents. You don't think about the impact to your career.
Speaker: But it was probably the most significant change, I would say. the the The most significant difference to me as a person came after I became a parent because i was – perhaps like many recruiters, very much what they call a control freak. I was very much in control of everything and very organized and structured. And parenting taught me i have no control.
Speaker: You have no control over some things. And some things are going to happen regardless of how well you plan and organize things. And you just have to deal with it. So again, this idea that I now no longer have full control over something, I can organize and structure and strategize, but the end of the day, it is what it is. And then I'm going to adapt and adjust to that ah and do that on very little sleep, obviously, as a parent. So becoming a parent for me became a really significant change in my view of the world, of my view of other parents, of my view of kind of that letting things go a little bit to back off and see where things will lie. I didn't need to control every little thing.
Speaker: And that made me a good leader because I wasn't trying to then control every little thing. I wasn't trying to control everything that every person did in my team. I was able to let go, let them grow, let them make their mistakes and just be there to guide them in the same way you do as a parent.
Speaker: So did you also find that you were less stressed because like you've you've got responsibility along with obviously your husband for two little people and work kind of, you just got a kind of more, a greater reality check? Like work is important, you want to do well, but at you know, at the end of the day it's still just work and it's not the end of the world.
Speaker: I'm not sure I had that myself. i had a different purpose. Yeah, you definitely had something to come home to, i think. You know, that that's the thing. You were, you know, pre-children, I would have worked, you know, easily, you know, 10-hour days without every day without fail. And I didn't think, you know, of it for a minute. But once you have a family, you obviously, you know, have a different perspective of that. Yes. That's what you mean.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, i that was certainly my experience. as As a recruiter, my regular hours were 7.45 to to So i and I was pretty much working a pretty long day.
Speaker: And once I became a father, I was certainly much more conscious of getting out of the office um you know on time and you know ultimately that that was the big decision for me when i went through my divorce because then not coming home to my my kids every night I needed or wanted to um see them all. And ultimately, that meant that I gave up being an employee and chose to become self-employed as a as a trainer. So if if I hadn't had that marriage breakdown, i'd you know i really don't know whether I would have gone out on my own, whether I would have stayed as an employee, whether I might have stayed for longer and then gone out to become a recruitment agency owner. I don't know. It's kind of a bit of a fascinating what if when I consider that part of my life
Speaker: Well, that's a really significant impact, actually. You know, like you're saying, a marriage or family breakup and then making that decision to kind of work on your own. But, yeah, that real kind of sliding doors moment as well. Maybe that's our next conversation, you know, the what ifs, if we'd made different decisions. But this has been a good chat, Ross. Good to get to know you a bit more and share that with our listeners. Yes, it's some you know it's not not something that I think a lot about, but overall, I don't think I'd change anything. Like ultimately, it's it's worked out. And although there's some things, yeah, probably with hindsight, probably wasn't the best choice. Like I made the choice that I made and things worked out how they worked out. And ultimately, I'm satisfied with my life.
Speaker: Good to hear. Well, thanks for sharing. Good to chat. you too.
