Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Write-ish, the one-stop shop on your writer journey where we discuss everything writing related from shiny new ideas through publication and marketing.
Speaker: Whether it's on the indie or traditional path and the ish of life that feels and sometimes gets in the way of our creative pursuits.
Speaker: I'm Zara, a self-published author of Young Adult and New Adult Fiction, an alumni of the NYU Masters in Publishing Program, and the founder of Inimitable Books, LLC, a new book publisher dedicated to uplifting marginalized voices without forcing authors to spotlight their trauma.
Speaker: And I'm Kelly, a genre-hopping writer, trier of hobbies, and debuting author this year.
Speaker: My book, Down the Well, comes out in September 2023.
Speaker: Be sure to add it on Goodreads or Zara's favorite alternative, Book Hype.
Speaker: Links will be in the show notes.
Speaker: In today's episode, we're talking to a screenwriter, award-winning film director, composer, and fabulous home cook, even though he'll say it's just a hobby.
Speaker: He may have never written a story in prose like a short story or a novel, but he knows about storytelling, so let's get into it.
Speaker: Thank you so much for coming on, Shay.
Speaker: Is there anything else you'd like to add that people should know about you right out of the gate?
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: And no, I think you did a nice job there.
Speaker: So I guess I'll just start off our questions here.
Speaker: I wanted to know if this career path was something that you always knew you wanted to do, or did you just somehow like find your way here?
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Well, I started out in music and for, I would say, 20, 25 years was going along in that direction.
Speaker: But while that was happening, I was involved in a production of a musical where I was asked to sing, which I did.
Speaker: And so the director of that musical said, wow, you're a pretty good actor too.
Speaker: So I said, really?
Speaker: So he goes, I want to put you in some Shakespeare.
Speaker: I was like, okay.
Speaker: So he did.
Speaker: He put me in Midsummer Night's Dream and I played puck.
Speaker: And yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker: And so from there, I was like, oh, I really like this acting thing.
Speaker: I'll get into it.
Speaker: And I took it pretty seriously.
Speaker: I went to East 15 acting school, where it was a really serious, dramatic school.
Speaker: And when I left there, I then went to Berkeley.
Speaker: So I had the music and the acting kind of going side by side all the time.
Speaker: But I dropped out of the acting because I discovered filmmaking.
Speaker: And I thought, this is more fun than, you know, I'd rather be behind the camera.
Speaker: And what I'm going to do is I will write films, make them, and write their soundtracks.
Speaker: While I was doing that, I met a music supervisor in New York City.
Speaker: Her name's Susan Jacobs.
Speaker: I said, well, I made the short film.
Speaker: Could you get me this Billie Holiday song?
Speaker: It's called Don't Explain.
Speaker: She said, well, who wrote all the other music?
Speaker: I said, I did.
Speaker: She goes, oh my God, I can give you work as a composer for other people's movies.
Speaker: So that's how that whole thing being writing music for my films and other films and making my films all came together.
Speaker: So yeah, it wasn't like a direct thing that I planned, but it just all happened.
Speaker: And now you just have an awesome life.
Speaker: Well, we're talking about playwriting, which is kind of similar to screenwriting, at least when it's compared to novel writing and short story writing.
Speaker: So who were your idols with getting into screenwriting?
Speaker: So screenwriting, you know,
Speaker: Even though I'm good at conceiving ideas and coming up with great stories, visionary stories that I want to shoot, it's like the screenwriting aspect is really the craft part.
Speaker: And so what I did, since I'm self-taught, was just immerse myself insanely in reading a ton of screenplays
Speaker: and screenwriter blogs and all the usual thing that everyone does, the Sid Field book, all of that.
Speaker: And then, of course, the most important thing, the typewriter, hitting that, that's what I call my computer, just hit the typewriter.
Speaker: And so the screenplays that I read that I liked a lot were not anyone in particular.
Speaker: I just liked the story that they did.
Speaker: And there are lots of things like people would say, oh, you shouldn't use a Coen Brothers screenplay as an example of a screenplay, because they kind of write for themselves.
Speaker: But that's the kind of writer I am.
Speaker: I make my own scripts.
Speaker: So I feel like
Speaker: The way I see it is there are two kinds of writers, screenwriter.
Speaker: There is the writer who writes so someone can direct, and there's the writer who writes to make the film.
Speaker: And so it's just a means to an end in a way.
Speaker: While that's going on, you're like, okay,
Speaker: I'm the director, I can put more stuff in here that normally would not be in there.
Speaker: Things that like people that do coverage will be like, ew, that's gross.
Speaker: But it's actually a cool shot.
Speaker: It would appear great on film because that's what a screenplay is.
Speaker: It's literally a guidepost to making a movie.
Speaker: It's not a literary work.
Speaker: I don't see them as that anyway.
Speaker: So, yeah, so I didn't, I don't have a particular person that, or people that I, I'm sure that you have this, when you read the first few lines of good writing, it just hugs you, you know, it's just like, wow, that's great.
Speaker: This is cool.
Speaker: I love this, you know, so page turner stuff is very key.
Speaker: I know that even though I write in genres that a lot of people like, I feel like I'm writing for me first and foremost.
Speaker: So I totally get that, Shay.
Speaker: And what about you, Kelly?
Speaker: I guess it's weird because now I feel like I'm finally writing for me and not writing out of a coping mechanism.
Speaker: Like, I feel like now I'm writing for me and it's because of joy.
Speaker: But before, yeah, no, I do.
Speaker: I do feel that.
Speaker: I do.
Speaker: Because even still, like, just pulling from places like my fantasy murder mystery that I'm working on, like, it definitely is heavily inspired by Alice in Wonderland.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: But it's, like, also pulled from other places, like what Shay was saying, like, not just one sole thing.
Speaker: Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker: So what was it like winning an award for your documentary, If I Die Tonight?
Speaker: That was just fantastic.
Speaker: The best part was just, I did not expect the film would be picked.
Speaker: You know how they do the announcement, and it was in Miami Film Festival.
Speaker: We came down to the five documentaries, and then...
Speaker: I kind of like, what?
Speaker: Do they say meat?
Speaker: You know, so I went up there and yeah.
Speaker: Is that what you're asking?
Speaker: Is that sort of like the experience of getting the award?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I was like, okay, cool.
Speaker: All of that pain and crap that I had to go through to put this film out there, it was worth it in that moment.
Speaker: For people who don't know, it's a documentary that's about a problem that we still have, police brutality.
Speaker: So it's really heavy.
Speaker: Yeah, it's a heavy film and it had a lot of problems getting a distributor because people were literally telling us, oh, you made a good film, but we don't think this is a problem.
Speaker: We don't see this as something people would go and watch.
Speaker: And do you want to say what year it came out in?
Speaker: Because it was definitely before George Floyd.
Speaker: Oh yeah, it's been a while.
Speaker: I think it was released...
Speaker: 2009?
Speaker: Is that correct?
Speaker: Or 2010?
Speaker: I'm not sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm going to go grab a pen real quick because I'm going to save this because I haven't watched.
Speaker: I mean, I'm in the hills of Appalachian.
Speaker: I can send you a link.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That would be lovely.
Speaker: It's really good.
Speaker: I'll send you a link.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: I'm excited now.
Speaker: Like not excited for why you had to make it, but like to watch it and see.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's old.
Speaker: You can tell, you know, just from because the cameras are much better today from what we were shooting.
Speaker: We didn't, for example, we didn't have 4K at the time.
Speaker: We had HD and stuff like that.
Speaker: So honestly, I don't know if we want to see that stuff in 4K.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: I mean, it's like it's already bad enough.
Speaker: Do you like doing your fictional films or documentaries more?
Speaker: That's...
Speaker: That's an interesting question because I think I'm kind of an all-around filmmaker and so it's really the subject matter, not the genre or the medium.
Speaker: So they both, it's very different.
Speaker: Documentary style is very immediate.
Speaker: It's a lot of waiting around and then something insane happens that's really good.
Speaker: Whereas narrative shooting is just, yeah, we have a script and we're trying to design a film
Speaker: And also in documentaries, documentaries have become very sophisticated to the point where, you know, doing reenactments or creating animations over the picture, over the story.
Speaker: It's such a rich, rich area to explore in.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm doing something now called Hand Tales, and it's short clips of interesting people that do things with their hands.
Speaker: And what you find is that at the end of the day, it's not really about anyone's hands, it's about the person.
Speaker: When you start talking to people,
Speaker: and they start telling you about themselves, their life, their background, it becomes really interesting.
Speaker: And a lot of documentaries is like that, those moments where... I've watched documentaries where the filmmaker was like,
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: Like that one with, I think the guy's name is Durst and he went to the bathroom, but he had an open mic and he just like confessed to the murder right there.
Speaker: I mean, that is that moment.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: I remember that because a high school classmate of mine, his dad was making the film.
Speaker: Oh my goodness.
Speaker: Oh my goodness.
Speaker: You couldn't make that up.
Speaker: Like, dang.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You know, some dumb ass would do that around here.
Speaker: Like, I would peg that for some hillbilly kind of dumb fuckery is what I would pick that as.
Speaker: But, like, this guy was like a Wall Street type of super high up there white man who assumes he's untouchable.
Speaker: He's just a narcissistic white man who just thought.
Speaker: Who saw it?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I mean, I'd like to think that he was smart enough that had he known his mic was on, he wouldn't have said it, but who knows?
Speaker: Yeah, I think I just don't think he knew his mic was on.
Speaker: No, all I'm thinking is that's some dumb hillbilly shit.
Speaker: Would you ever want to work on a blockbuster film?
Speaker: And like, why or why wouldn't you?
Speaker: Okay, so the bigger films, it comes down to money and control, right?
Speaker: And I, you know, to me, films are a director's medium.
Speaker: The more money there is, the more chefs are in the kitchen.
Speaker: You'll find that a lot of really good filmmakers, they might do one big movie.
Speaker: But after that, if you look at their resume, it's like, that was that one where you had that terrible experience.
Speaker: There are lawyers there, producers are there.
Speaker: Nobody's just letting the action and the picture roll the way it should.
Speaker: So in that sense, no, I'm not really interested in doing those kind of big... It probably could be fun to do one of those, but I'm interested in the smaller films.
Speaker: And when I say small, I mean the budgets do go into the millions, but...
Speaker: they're not major Hollywood blockbuster type films.
Speaker: I guess we could call them independent films, versus indie.
Speaker: The indie is like super low budget indie, whereas I see the independent film as where the director is able to craft the story.
Speaker: Yeah, the artist gets to do their art how they envision it without so much influence.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Now that said, it's a collaborative effort
Speaker: Short stories and novels often offer the opportunity for internal dialogue and I guess in a film that would be a voiceover, but how do you make sure that you're conveying a character's inner thoughts while writing a screenplay or directing?
Speaker: So there's two levels of that.
Speaker: When you say directing, it's like communicating with the actor what motivation is.
Speaker: That's something that will never appear on the screen, except in the act of the character doing the thing, you know?
Speaker: And then there is...
Speaker: you know, less often it's voiceover because voiceover is, in my opinion, best done when it's a narrator in the story, not like what some people do, which is after they, after they make the movie, now they're going to add things to explain to people because it's not clear, you know?
Speaker: And so the best, I don't know which version of Blade Runner your favorite is, the original one, but there, there were what, three or four of them.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: The best one, my favorite, is the last one that came out, you know, that had no voiceover, you know, that didn't have the noir detective kind of people.
Speaker: I say that now, and I'm going to get a lot of flack with that, but I don't care.
Speaker: But-
Speaker: Because it's such a personal... Kelly always says, say something with your full chest.
Speaker: I'm like, if you're going to say it, just say it with your chest.
Speaker: It's okay.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: So yeah, those things that you read in a novel, I mean, the key is the picture.
Speaker: What are they doing?
Speaker: What in that two-dimensional space is the viewer being allowed to see, you know?
Speaker: And that's it.
Speaker: If you look at Fellini films, he's a genius at doing things like that, you know?
Speaker: To me, that's really where the skills lie, where how can I communicate?
Speaker: Or if you watch silent movies, which I love, I love the old John Ford films, like his first short film and the later ones that he did that were silent movies.
Speaker: It's all there.
Speaker: It's all in the picture.
Speaker: Now, sometimes, you know, in silent movies, they throw those cards with some dialogue on it.
Speaker: But in general, I think it's all about putting it in the picture.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: Let me give one more example of that.
Speaker: There's Taxi Driver, the Scorsese film.
Speaker: And in that, he's not a, obviously, he's not a detective or anything like that.
Speaker: So it's not that sort of like...
Speaker: But Paul Schrader wrote that screenplay and the inner dialogue and the voiceover in that movie is so part of the story.
Speaker: It's really, really good.
Speaker: You know, like this loner going through New York City and his way of looking at certain people, like driving through Times Square and just...
Speaker: hating society and its grossness and its lack of morals, whereas he also is quite an immoral character.
Speaker: So he's like passing judgment.
Speaker: And that's where that voiceover works amazing in that movie.
Speaker: I'm going to have to watch that.
Speaker: A lot of these I'm very unfamiliar with, like narrator wise.
Speaker: I've only ever remembered like the princess bride.
Speaker: And because I have very young children, we watch Winnie the Pooh a lot that has a narrator and that's it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think if the narrator is the storyteller,
Speaker: that we don't see, for example.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: That's like, immediately, that's like a fairytale world for me when I don't see the narrator.
Speaker: And it could be an adult fairytale, it could be like for kids, but I think that's a very effective, but that's something different from what we're talking about.
Speaker: Similarly, short stories and novels let a writer really describe a scene, but I know some screenplays don't focus too much on the setting.
Speaker: How descriptive do you personally get and do directors always honor that?
Speaker: Description, in my opinion, the screenplay craft is a mix of prose and poetry.
Speaker: So you're using one word to say a lot of things, you know, and you're leaving a lot of room for interpretation when it comes to when you're going to finally make the film, whether it's your film or someone else is going to shoot it.
Speaker: So that's, if you read older screenplays, like let's say Chinatown by Robert Town, which is an awesome, awesome screenplay and movie, the description is like a lot, you know, a lot more than what's done today.
Speaker: And I use periods a lot.
Speaker: I use one word, period, you know, and let's move on.
Speaker: Let's leave a lot of air.
Speaker: And that way the actors get to the meat of the script easier.
Speaker: Now, people read a lot less today.
Speaker: People don't like to read, actually.
Speaker: So there's that element of being very economical in your writing, in your description, and moving forward rather than on the no stuff or plotting and over-describing things.
Speaker: And that's where I think the real skill for me, for example, my method, my sort of, what would I call it?
Speaker: my approach is outlining an insane amount and really understanding.
Speaker: But not too much to where when I'm actually writing the script, it's not going to be fun.
Speaker: I want it to be fun.
Speaker: But I want to know where I'm going.
Speaker: I want to know.
Speaker: what's happening.
Speaker: And I'm not necessarily talking about plot because for me, plot is all about what is the character doing?
Speaker: If I go and make a cup of coffee and I drop the cop and it splashes everywhere, okay, now what's my reaction?
Speaker: And some people plot everything out.
Speaker: Everyone's different.
Speaker: Just for me, it's like the character is what motivates the plot.
Speaker: I'm like you.
Speaker: I'll have an idea for a plot and I drop a character in and then after that, it's pretty much what are they doing?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I'm not sure because like I'm thinking about it and I don't, I feel like some of my stories are more character led where others I'm more just focused on the plot and then the plot happens to the character.
Speaker: But that's really it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's just, everyone's different, you know,
Speaker: That's what I love about it.
Speaker: It's like whatever your style becomes your style is your style.
Speaker: We talk about all the time, Zara and I, about how like whenever writers are like, oh, do I outline?
Speaker: Do I just, you know, pants the whole story?
Speaker: It's like, well, if you make an outline, the outline can like change and it's a living, breathing thing as you go through the plot and story.
Speaker: So it sounds like it's the same for, you know, screenwriting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, definitely.
Speaker: And sometimes, you know, you're trying to force things and they're not, they don't want to go that way.
Speaker: The characters don't want to do that.
Speaker: Just, you know, listen to what they're saying.
Speaker: Just roll with it.
Speaker: Let it happen how the characters want it to happen.
Speaker: Like you said, different for every person and then different maybe for each project too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So are you pulling your inspiration from your daily, like, how does that work for you?
Speaker: Most of the time it's, it could be daily.
Speaker: So like if I'm outside with the girls watching them, cause like we're surrounded by trees and stuff.
Speaker: So like a lot of nature plays into my inspiration.
Speaker: The story that I was working on right now, that's actually going to be dropping next fall.
Speaker: Nature plays a big part in the corruption of the well and the wellspring of the magic because a magic user,
Speaker: became corrupted because she couldn't handle the power, therefore corrupting the magic, and then that affects the land around it.
Speaker: And it goes from this very lush, beautiful, emerald green, like, perfection, to now it's, like, twisted, dead, like, gray and foggy.
Speaker: Like Lion King when Scar is... Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Like Lion King when Scar.
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: That kind of dovetails perfectly into the next question, though, which is what inspires you to write a screenplay?
Speaker: And do you ever also feel drawn to compose a piece of music?
Speaker: And if you feel drawn to doing both, do you do both or do you pick one over the other?
Speaker: You know, the music is a daily thing.
Speaker: Like I can literally hear stuff.
Speaker: And so if I like it, I'll just write it down somewhere.
Speaker: So that's kind of like a...
Speaker: The film
Speaker: is it comes from visuals.
Speaker: Like sometimes I'm looking at something or I get an idea.
Speaker: For example, I'm just finishing Heaven on Earth, which is a story about a guy who comes out of prison and he's trying to like reconnect with his daughter, right?
Speaker: So that story is literally, I saw this image of him walking into a cafe to meet this other guy and there were cops surrounding both of them, you know?
Speaker: And from there, and that happens at the end of the movie.
Speaker: So that is like, it's just bizarre thing where that image came to me first.
Speaker: And then I wrote to meet that image.
Speaker: And I didn't even know where it was going to fall.
Speaker: It just fit.
Speaker: It's like, oh, okay, that's how that happened.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: So yeah, so it's two different things that are constantly going on in the background.
Speaker: So I obviously only have the one medium, the novel writing.
Speaker: And it's kind of well known in the AuthorTube community that I have this thing that I call my to-be-written list, where I come up with this story idea and I just put it on the list and I either share the title or I'm like, it's untitled, but it's part of a series and you can see it.
Speaker: And I'm generally not trying to find new story ideas because it's already at 40, but...
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: But it'll just be like random things.
Speaker: But I don't see things because I have a Fantasia.
Speaker: But sometimes I'll just like the same way that you saw the image.
Speaker: It's like I'll just suddenly know a scenario.
Speaker: One screenplay that I'm working on is I don't know if it'll ever get made, but it's
Speaker: about people that cry a lot because I was walking in New York City and I saw somebody crying in the street and I thought, I wonder what's going on there, you know?
Speaker: That's such an image to me, you know?
Speaker: Anyway, it's funny because
Speaker: I see that quite a bit in New York City.
Speaker: When you're watching life, walking through the city, I don't know how you walk, but I walk fast, but I'm slow.
Speaker: I observe a lot of things.
Speaker: I don't take in a lot of stimulus.
Speaker: It's sort of like we have to have this blanket, this Jedi blanket, because New York is a very overstimulating place.
Speaker: There's so much going on.
Speaker: I walk like you, fast and taking stuff in.
Speaker: Yeah, so you can slow down and then you see things better.
Speaker: What about you, Kelly?
Speaker: I feel like we're very similar there, Shay, where I picture something in my head like it's actually in front of me and then just go from there.
Speaker: With Cursebreaker, I grew up around an aunt who was ill with cancer for a lot of my life.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I knew what that looked like.
Speaker: And then I was like, but what happens if I have a princess?
Speaker: who had maybe something similar or like a family genetic curse similar to that.
Speaker: And I just kind of ran with it from there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which of the three do you consider to be harder screenwriting, directing or composing?
Speaker: I think screenwriting, I would say, I would say that's,
Speaker: the most laborious for me, even though I do it every day.
Speaker: I have to be consistent in sitting down.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like getting to my computer and just writing every day is something that I don't want to let go of that because it took me a long time to get there, first of all.
Speaker: So whereas with composing, it's really music is just from such a different place.
Speaker: And it's very much about feeling and color.
Speaker: So you create colors through harmony, through textures and sounds to fit.
Speaker: So that's a whole different thing because everything has to fit and be seamless.
Speaker: So we're not looking to be in the way all the elements are.
Speaker: fit like a glove instead of one thing being like when I go to films and people say, oh, I love the cinematography.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But what about the movie?
Speaker: That's not a good film to me when I only hear about the cinematography or the design, you know, it means that that movie is out of harmony with itself.
Speaker: And then probably my most fun thing to do is directing because I'm very natural at it, you know, and it's really a very intense thing to do to be surrounded by tons of people who are asking you questions and you have to give everyone an answer and sort of like,
Speaker: shape a story with so many disparate elements.
Speaker: But also you like have a vision and then you're very calm.
Speaker: You're a very calming presence.
Speaker: Nothing illustrates that more to me than when I won tickets to Hamilton.
Speaker: So obviously I was like, I need to take Shay.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: And we're sitting there and I'm so excited.
Speaker: And he's just super chill.
Speaker: And we get to the end of it.
Speaker: And I'm like, did you like it?
Speaker: He's like, yeah, I loved it.
Speaker: I was like, okay, because I couldn't tell.
Speaker: Are you an earth sign, Shay?
Speaker: I'm a fire sign.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: And your calming presence.
Speaker: Well.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: All the fire signs I know are very like intense people.
Speaker: I think I'm pretty intense, you know.
Speaker: I'm also partially one, so I fall under Kelly's.
Speaker: I think I'm pretty intense.
Speaker: I mean, on set.
Speaker: Sometimes, you know, for example, working with actors, having acted myself, I know that everyone's different.
Speaker: Some people need more of a push.
Speaker: Some people need a pat on the back.
Speaker: Some people need a foot rub, you know.
Speaker: And some people just need to be yelled at.
Speaker: And then they just bring out their best amazing stuff.
Speaker: So it depends.
Speaker: And that's that whole toolkit of directing that you're dealing with.
Speaker: You sort of should know a little bit about everything, but not forgetting that the drama must be in front of the camera, not behind.
Speaker: Put that on a shirt.
Speaker: Man, if people live by that, I think we'd be in a lot better position.
Speaker: Okay, so you kind of talked about how directing is the most fun for you.
Speaker: So maybe you've already answered this.
Speaker: But this is the mean question that Kelly was like, you're asking him that because I'm making you choose which of those three is your favorite to do screenwriting, directing or composing.
Speaker: I think at the moment it's directing, you know, like, I don't know, maybe tomorrow it'll be something else.
Speaker: But I would say it's almost between, okay, since composing and music is in such a different place, I think it's really between writing and directing, you know, that I can say, yeah, I'd rather be shooting.
Speaker: I'm a shooter, you know, and
Speaker: There are two kinds of directors.
Speaker: There are directors who write and writers who direct, and I am a director who writes.
Speaker: So I'm writing to get to the set, to get the thing shot.
Speaker: If you're doing all three for a single project, will you compose as you're screenwriting or do you keep them all on separate timelines?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That's a very good question.
Speaker: The writing to me is the first thing that has to be done.
Speaker: No script, no movie.
Speaker: So the writing takes precedence over everything else at that point.
Speaker: And then when it's done, when the script is done, when it's locked and it's never... See, this is another thing we could talk about.
Speaker: I don't think there's a perfect screenplay.
Speaker: And so you send it out there, and it just has to hit with the right people that are going to make that film with you.
Speaker: Once the script is locked, once there's nothing more to come out, now it's the next phase, making the film.
Speaker: And the focus goes all the way there.
Speaker: And now during shooting, we do a lot of rewrites, like when we're trying things and it's not working or actors come in and say, can I say this instead of what you wrote, which is fine.
Speaker: Just don't tell me like before I do a take, you know, so that everyone else can be a part of that decision.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, and then composing is in post-production.
Speaker: So that's like,
Speaker: okay, here's the picture.
Speaker: What kind of sound would you like here?
Speaker: Would you like to see here?
Speaker: And it's a very solitary thing.
Speaker: You're not surrounded by anyone.
Speaker: It's kind of like back to the writing.
Speaker: You're back to the writing.
Speaker: You're sitting by yourself alone in a room with a keyboard, looking at the picture and picking out chords, picking out textures and going, oh, this is nice.
Speaker: And yeah, that's kind of how that happens.
Speaker: I could not imagine doing like writing the story and then trying to find music for it and then making sure on the bigger picture on bigger scale for a film that it's all how it's supposed to be like writing a book.
Speaker: Like for me personally, I was just like, oh, wow, this is this is rough.
Speaker: I didn't finish my first one till like 2019.
Speaker: I mean, that's really I really admire.
Speaker: yourself and Zahra and all of you that write books because I don't know how you do that because that is just so such a skill to have, you know, to write that density and for it all to fit together, you know?
Speaker: And do you, I mean, how do you, for example, how do you plan how long something is going to be?
Speaker: Because in screenwriting, we have a page is one minute, essentially.
Speaker: So we're looking to 110, 120 pages to fit something into that.
Speaker: Whereas I feel like with novel writing or even story writing, it's a lot different as far as length.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Kelly, do you want to answer how you do length first?
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: No, that was, that's a good question.
Speaker: I feel like a lot of authors try to shoot for at least some sort of rough goal.
Speaker: Like I tried to set down and I was like, okay, if I can make it to at least 45 K, I think that might be able to encompass this story really well.
Speaker: But if...
Speaker: It doesn't, we have room to go over.
Speaker: I'm an underwriter though too.
Speaker: Zara, I know you are as well.
Speaker: And our books kind of grow as we edit.
Speaker: There are certain word counts for like short story versus flash fiction versus novel.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I think if people want to get traditionally published, they normally set one of those goals and then try and write to it.
Speaker: And then some people like really freak out about like during,
Speaker: their first draft that it has to be the right word count.
Speaker: But Kelly and I are both underwriters in that we know that when we're revising and editing, we're going to go back in and change stuff.
Speaker: That's probably going to expand the word count because we're explaining or describing things better.
Speaker: I got you.
Speaker: You know, so for me, I always aim for like around 60,000, which is actually a short novel by most people's standards.
Speaker: OK, but.
Speaker: In editing, I've had books go down to like 55,000 and I'm editing a book now and it has shot up to 70,000, which is my longest book ever.
Speaker: And, you know, some people would be like, oh, 60 to 80.
Speaker: That's like a normal novel.
Speaker: And then if you get into like the hundreds, it's like,
Speaker: That's a fantasy novel.
Speaker: And then once you hit 120, they're like, can you please edit that down?
Speaker: But I don't, there are some people who, when they're writing a story, they're like, oh, I have this many more words to go.
Speaker: And I'm like, how do you know?
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like I can understand if you're like, I'm aiming for 50K, I'm aiming for 60K and I'm currently at this.
Speaker: So that's how many more words I have.
Speaker: But for people who are like, I have this many more words until I'm done with the story.
Speaker: I'm like, how?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I guess if we think about it as like a dartboard and each like ring on the dartboard is like a word count, we just want to throw our dart and land somewhere close.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We'd like to not be like three rings away, but if we are like, we'll deal with it, but at least we're on the board, hopefully.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: My whole thing is, okay.
Speaker: Is a bitch on the board?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'm on the board.
Speaker: That's all that matters.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Can you talk about the differences of conveying a story through the words and the visuals and the musical sounds?
Speaker: Because in the previous answers to our questions, you've kind of been talking about like they all need to work together.
Speaker: But like you just said, you don't do them all at the same time.
Speaker: So what are you thinking when you're like, okay, I'm in the screenwriting, which means it's the words that need to be
Speaker: Written even though you're a director who writes, so you're probably thinking about the visual part and then you're directing, so you're obviously thinking about the visual part and then you're doing the music that goes underneath it.
Speaker: What are the differences in your mind for those?
Speaker: I'll take that one in the order it happens.
Speaker: So with the screenplay, and I do really feel like the screenplay is just, everything's going to change from one to the other because you're making the movie several times over.
Speaker: You're making it at the writing stage, at the filming stage and in editorial.
Speaker: So with that, I could jump to the end.
Speaker: So, well, then crafting the story, the onset of,
Speaker: intensity and the director's toolkit is obviously going to be the camera.
Speaker: What lens, what size, all of that.
Speaker: It really gets very detailed into whether something is a close up or a wide shot.
Speaker: Where do I want your eyes to go?
Speaker: What do I want you to see?
Speaker: And then the composing part now brings a different layer of emotion.
Speaker: And so that one, I feel like you need to be very careful because you can manipulate an audience with music.
Speaker: If I have a scene, let's say there's a scene where somebody has just died.
Speaker: It's sad.
Speaker: And it's not Forrest Gump, by the way.
Speaker: Which is where his mother's like, oh, I have cancer or whatever, whatever she says.
Speaker: But I'm talking about like in a drama.
Speaker: You're playing with the audience if you have a soppy little cello going underneath the thing, because I think that it's already a sad setting.
Speaker: So point is, sometimes opposites work very nicely with music under picture.
Speaker: There is melodrama as a genre, I think,
Speaker: you know, like Douglas Sirk, All That Heaven Allows, I think that's the name of the movie.
Speaker: It's wall-to-wall music.
Speaker: From the beginning, a lot of that genre of Hollywood pictures, there's not even a room for you to think.
Speaker: There's just music everywhere.
Speaker: But it works.
Speaker: You know, it works.
Speaker: The characters walk in, and it's so well done.
Speaker: They perfected it.
Speaker: And then there's movies where I'll hear music maybe at the closing credits.
Speaker: So I don't know if that answers your question,
Speaker: I think it was a damn good answer.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you find like, would it be harder in your opinion to like work with actors and real people versus like little claymation figurines?
Speaker: Or another form of animation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, animation I think would be not as hard because you're essentially playing God in that universe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: But an actor, they're like, well, why do you want me to sit there?
Speaker: You know, why can't I?
Speaker: I like the tension, by the way, with actors sometimes.
Speaker: That's why I feel like, you know, it's important that the script, you don't start making the movie before the thing's on the page, that everyone agrees to what's on the page.
Speaker: Looping back around to film festivals and competitions, what's it like submitting to those?
Speaker: And can you kind of walk us through that?
Speaker: There's no science to it.
Speaker: It's a lot of connections to people just know people because each festival has thousands and thousands of films submitted there and they still screen
Speaker: 50 to 100 films, depending on the size of the festival, maybe a couple of hundred.
Speaker: So 10,000 submissions, obviously it's going to get cut down.
Speaker: And I don't believe it's always the best films that make it into that festival.
Speaker: I love festivals.
Speaker: I love the festival people.
Speaker: They really love films and the good festivals like Austin Film Festival is really, I mean, even though they do a lot of screenwriting centric stuff, those people are just amazing, really cool people.
Speaker: But
Speaker: festivals sometimes will have a theme.
Speaker: So if you're submitting to a festival, you need to know what they're looking for.
Speaker: And don't just submit blanket to every festival because your film will get rejected, which is okay.
Speaker: But you just wasted whatever submission fees.
Speaker: It's about research, about doing research.
Speaker: So with submitting to festivals and stuff, there is a fee.
Speaker: Because for writers, I know with us to query someone, it should always be free.
Speaker: And that's something in the writing community always said.
Speaker: Like, oh, if someone's charging you for this, so you have to pay a fee?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That's normal.
Speaker: Yeah, that's normal.
Speaker: Some festivals do, oh, please submit.
Speaker: Don't worry about the fee.
Speaker: They give you one of these free passes.
Speaker: But at the end of the day,
Speaker: It's all the screeners sitting down, picking their favorite films.
Speaker: And I think what happens is they kind of like craft the program and then debate on which films are their favorites and things like that.
Speaker: I watch film every day, even if it's 20 minutes.
Speaker: It's like going to the gym a little bit, you know, just keep your eyes trained.
Speaker: So I can only imagine a festival programmer having to watch hundreds of films.
Speaker: Most of which probably are not that good, if we're honest.
Speaker: And then they have to pick, or if they're all really good, and then they have to pick one or the other.
Speaker: When I was a literary agent intern, I had to read what's called the slush pile.
Speaker: So it's not the agent asking for, hey, I like your idea or I like the few pages you sent me through like a competition or something.
Speaker: It's just people sending their stuff.
Speaker: The amount of not good in that pile.
Speaker: Like everyone jokes that, oh, the slush pile is full of crap, but like it actually is.
Speaker: Yeah, of course.
Speaker: You know, and then there are some gems in there.
Speaker: Have you ever adapted someone's work into a screenplay?
Speaker: And if not, would you ever consider it?
Speaker: No, I haven't.
Speaker: And I would love to do it.
Speaker: Back to your earlier question about internal dialogue and what do you leave out?
Speaker: What do you leave in?
Speaker: I know that people that love certain books don't always love the movie because they didn't quite get what the book... But an average-sized novel, I would say, would probably be about a 10-hour movie if you were to...
Speaker: include everything into it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm one of the people who absolutely understands that an adaptation is an adaptation and it needs to work in the medium that it's being adapted into.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I feel like I'm one of the very few people on the planet who liked the 2007 Golden Compass movie based on the Philip Pullman book.
Speaker: People got mad because in the book, the main character goes to London and then she goes up north to like the icy tundra and then keeps flipping between those two locations.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: And then in the movie, it's like, hey, once she's up north, maybe all the events that are up north should take place before she goes back to London.
Speaker: People are so mad.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I see.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, what did you think about the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the original one?
Speaker: I thought that was pretty...
Speaker: I'm excited.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay, here we go.
Speaker: Let's hear it.
Speaker: So I never read the books because growing up literacy in my house wasn't very important.
Speaker: But my dad took me to see the Lord of the Rings whenever they came out in theaters.
Speaker: And I'm never going to forget the experience because like, that also turned me on for like love of fantasy, but also scarred me for life because of like Gollum.
Speaker: Like he took me, this grown man took his little five-year-old girl.
Speaker: I was good with the orcs.
Speaker: I was good with like everything else happening.
Speaker: But Gollum comes up on screen and I just was like, ha, no, get me out of here.
Speaker: They had to leave the theater.
Speaker: And then like going back now, like watching it, it was like crazy.
Speaker: But yes, what were your thoughts on it?
Speaker: Well, you know, I hadn't read the books like you.
Speaker: I think they're very well made.
Speaker: And that's actually one of the great things about that is
Speaker: the consistency and the continuity across the films because they were all shot at the same time, you know?
Speaker: And that is just such a great way to do it, you know, because everybody's there, everything's there, everything's very consistent.
Speaker: You're not wrapping up and coming back two years later to do the next edition of the story, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like Harry Potter with every, like the first two were done by Chris Columbus back to back.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's why he got burnt out and didn't do it anymore.
Speaker: But you have a different director until you reach film five.
Speaker: Yeah, I think, you know, that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah, on a property like Harry Potter.
Speaker: I mean, yeah, I could see director burnout there happening a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There was no continuity except the fact that every scene got darker.
Speaker: It was like you can't even see it.
Speaker: That was the one thing they all agreed on, whereas at least I feel like with the Twilight films and the Hunger Games films, because those also had different directors.
Speaker: Have y'all seen the image going around the internet of the Twilight scene of all the vampires on the baseball field hissing at each other, but then the blue light was lifted and it was just normal looking and they looked...
Speaker: No, I haven't seen that.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: Yes, I have seen that.
Speaker: The coloration of a lot of YA adapted films, if you made it look like normal lighting, you'd be like, this is ridiculous.
Speaker: I'm going to try to find it because you need to see it, Shay.
Speaker: I just want continuity.
Speaker: Even if it's like an adaptation that I don't love too much.
Speaker: Like don't break the world.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: Can you talk about the collaboration process in filmmaking and how it differs from when you're a screenwriter, the director, or the composer?
Speaker: Well, everything kind of filters through the director, right?
Speaker: And so the process is...
Speaker: Assemble the team, you know, like find the right cinematographer that sort of works for you.
Speaker: Find the right production designer who will create the sets and the look of the film, the actual space, you know, that actors are going to be occupying.
Speaker: Those are kind of like two very key individuals.
Speaker: in the collaboration, and then of course their teams.
Speaker: And so it's like this pyramid, if you wanted to think of it in that way.
Speaker: And so I find with experience that the collaboration is like, are we all making the same picture?
Speaker: And this is about communicating on an insane level, like over communicating, over getting pre-production, you know, to where we're all on the same page when we're shooting.
Speaker: We're not asking, oh, what are we doing?
Speaker: You know, we're not asking those basic questions that should have been figured out a long time ago.
Speaker: And that's where great producers, I think, come into it too, because they're part of the collaboration.
Speaker: Now, OK, there are different kinds of producers, right?
Speaker: Some producers, they're like,
Speaker: They're going to find a writer or option a script, get a script, and then they're going to go out and pick a director.
Speaker: And they're going to put the whole package together.
Speaker: But if that producer's good, then they stay out of the way for that team to make the film and for all that magic to happen.
Speaker: Not...
Speaker: stepping in the way and over micromanaging and all that.
Speaker: Two of the best producers that I know of, they really are very talented at pulling the right director, bringing in the right cast with the right screenplay.
Speaker: And so that collaboration is very key to the whole thing, you know, gelling together.
Speaker: I think that was explained well.
Speaker: I forgot sound.
Speaker: Sound is very important.
Speaker: Getting good sound.
Speaker: A lot of people overlook that when they're making a movie or when they're doing a lot of things video.
Speaker: They're just like, sound is an afterthought.
Speaker: No, no, no.
Speaker: Sound is not an afterthought.
Speaker: One thing you learn when you're more of an independent filmmaker is about really getting good stuff going in, not fixing things in post necessarily.
Speaker: You know, you're like, I want the best sound so I don't have to go and do it again.
Speaker: Later on, when we get there and we find that, oh, shit, you know.
Speaker: We have to pull this actor in to do their lines again because blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I feel like it's all about details, details, details, details.
Speaker: It's like directing to me is like being a cook.
Speaker: Your prep time is very key to what the finished product is going to be, just as the ingredients are going to enhance the dish.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: That's why I think, I don't know if you've ever been into one of those professional kitchens where there are many chefs in there and it's very quiet.
Speaker: And it's amazing to watch that because
Speaker: All of those people in Gordon Ramsay's kitchen, like he's the only one yelling and all that, are very important to what finally comes out on that plate.
Speaker: Somebody back there did their job really well to bring it all together.
Speaker: And I see filmmaking like that.
Speaker: It's like, well, but then there's the voice and the vision through the director.
Speaker: I like the comparison there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you have a dream collaboration with other screenwriters, composers or directors that you would love to do?
Speaker: Wow, that's a good one.
Speaker: Kelly came up with the question.
Speaker: So props to Kelly.
Speaker: You know, I do have like cinematographers that I think about.
Speaker: Oh, I'd love to work with.
Speaker: And I make lists, you know.
Speaker: Like, okay, this person did that movie.
Speaker: It would be just an amazing experience to work with that person.
Speaker: Or this person did this production design.
Speaker: I've never thought about co-directing anything really.
Speaker: And I find it fascinating the people that do that because they do it really, like the Coen brothers.
Speaker: I mean, they each take a different credit, but I think they both are directing and also their family.
Speaker: So that- That could make it worse.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: But yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker: But with actors, ah, many actors, I think, oh, wow, that person, wouldn't it be great if that person were doing this film that I'm thinking of?
Speaker: I think everyone has that.
Speaker: But you know, the funny thing is that I think the right actor, like you hear these stories about they auditioned
Speaker: I don't know, let's say Danny DeVito for that part.
Speaker: And let's say it ended up being someone else, you know?
Speaker: And you cannot think of Danny DeVito in that part at all.
Speaker: And it's like, what were they thinking?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: When I heard Robert Pattinson was going to be Batman, I was like, really?
Speaker: But then I watched it, I was like, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker: I see him as Batman now.
Speaker: I think a lot of people were stuck on him, like being Edward Cullen.
Speaker: And it's like,
Speaker: He was Cedric Diggory before that.
Speaker: And then after Twilight, he was in the movie Remember Me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which if you don't know, is about a couple that basically gets split up because of the 9-11 attacks on the Twin Towers.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's like, he can do stuff the same way that Kristen Stewart can do stuff.
Speaker: But I think everyone had the same reaction when she was like cast to play Diana.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: They're more than their biggest role.
Speaker: They have range.
Speaker: They've done things before and after.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, she was fantastic in that role.
Speaker: I love that film.
Speaker: Chris Evans, I think, is Captain America.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: He played in that family movie where I think the grandpa or the dad dies, and he was the asshole.
Speaker: Knives Out?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes, that.
Speaker: That is such a good film.
Speaker: I don't know that film.
Speaker: Oh, Shay.
Speaker: Talk about a beautiful film.
Speaker: Okay, what's it called?
Speaker: Knives Out.
Speaker: Oh, Knives Out.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: What am I saying?
Speaker: I do know that film.
Speaker: The one with Daniel Craig.
Speaker: I was going to say Shay.
Speaker: Hello.
Speaker: I'm disappointed in you.
Speaker: I read the screenplay for that before I saw the movie.
Speaker: It was great.
Speaker: How'd you get the screenplay?
Speaker: I can send it to you.
Speaker: I have it.
Speaker: Ooh, yes.
Speaker: Yes, please.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: I haven't watched the movie.
Speaker: I was watching the cinema therapy where it's like a therapist and like his... Filmmaker friend.
Speaker: Yeah, filmmaker friend.
Speaker: They sit down and like look at film and then the therapist like therapizes everything.
Speaker: Then the film person will be like, yeah, so this lighting isn't like as good for the emotion that it could have been.
Speaker: And like this is like a bad camera angle if this is what they were going for.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it's really cool.
Speaker: But that's how I saw it.
Speaker: And I was like, this is so different from like his role as Captain America.
Speaker: Is there a resource you found helpful in learning screenwriting?
Speaker: I know Zara read Sid Field's book.
Speaker: And I know many of the author tube community have read Save the Cat before the novel specific version of that came out.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think reading a ton of screenplays is key.
Speaker: And can people just Google them?
Speaker: Yes, you can Google, you can download.
Speaker: Around awards season, all the studios put up screenplays on their websites.
Speaker: So you can go there and download all the nominated films.
Speaker: And then the second level to that is there are some excellent screenwriters that have blogs.
Speaker: I recommend everyone check out John August.
Speaker: And it just goes into really fantastic, crafty things about how to write something.
Speaker: You know, like someone is walking through three rooms while they're talking.
Speaker: That's a very basic thing to know.
Speaker: How do I put that on the page?
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like, how do I put that so it's clear?
Speaker: And at the end of the day, I think the good scripts are just about clarity.
Speaker: There's no one way of doing things.
Speaker: But if you make things really clear, that everyone who reads it can understand it.
Speaker: So yeah, so the reading the screenplays, watching the films, of course, to see what ended up being cut out.
Speaker: No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker: And bloggers.
Speaker: I love my screenwriting bloggers.
Speaker: The good ones have a ton of information on there.
Speaker: And British Film Institute has cool interviews with screenwriters.
Speaker: I guess they do this one-on-one in a theater.
Speaker: There's also Jeff Goldsmith.
Speaker: He has a screenwriting podcast that's excellent because they talk about process in there.
Speaker: And they'll watch a movie and then they'll invite the writer to come and talk about the process.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think for me anyway, I've been doing this
Speaker: long enough, but I'm always learning new things.
Speaker: I wouldn't read Syd Field now, but I would recommend... It's probably like everything else where you absorb all this information, then you can throw it away and just... It's part of you now, so you can throw it out and just find your way, find your own voice.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: There's a lot of different ways to learn too.
Speaker: It sounds like there's a lot of resources that people can pull.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's no shortage of ways to learn things in today's world.
Speaker: Logan and I were talking about, cause he's a carpenter by trade.
Speaker: So like, he's already pretty familiar with it.
Speaker: And he was like, yeah, nowadays, if you want to learn something, you know, you can just go online and there's someone there who's put their knowledge out there.
Speaker: And I was like, yeah.
Speaker: And we were like talking about that.
Speaker: And it's really an odd thing when I think back to like when my grandpa,
Speaker: what like they would have had to do like I have a grandpa who hitchhiked all the way out to Wyoming during 60s and 70s and I was like that's that's crazy why why'd you do that well I want I wanted to go and see it and no one else was going to drive me so I hitchhiked and I'm like oh
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But it's like even me learning how to type, like I'm pretty sure there are YouTube videos how to do that.
Speaker: But my grandma taught me, she taught me to touch type.
Speaker: She's like, this is how I learned when I was a secretary and I was using a manual typewriter.
Speaker: So you're going to learn this way and you're going to be much better than everyone else, which was true.
Speaker: But then also there were like the computer games of typing, but it wasn't like, Hey, I want to learn this so I can just search it myself.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: What advice would you give to aspiring screenwriters?
Speaker: I think it's the same thing, you know, sit your butt down, read through a ton of screenplays, and watch the films.
Speaker: Very, very important.
Speaker: Like, see what's happening.
Speaker: And then sit your butt down again and write.
Speaker: Because a lot of people get scared around, I don't know what they're scared about.
Speaker: Maybe it's not perfect.
Speaker: Trust me, no one's there.
Speaker: No one's going to read it.
Speaker: Just keep plodding through.
Speaker: I think consistency, daily action,
Speaker: is probably better than spending seven hours on Saturday trying, you know, and just be curious.
Speaker: And also I think as writers, we want to experience life to create a richness within ourselves that we can then put on the page.
Speaker: If I'm too careful, it's not going to happen.
Speaker: Nobody wants to watch paint dry.
Speaker: So, you know what I mean?
Speaker: Like they have so many distractions these days.
Speaker: I want to make it worth your time when you open page one and you get to page 120.
Speaker: There is someone that I look up to.
Speaker: He's a YouTuber and his name is Mark Fischbach, but online it's Markiplier.
Speaker: And he's a creator and he was doing an interview recently and he talks about
Speaker: creating things with just the goal of evoking emotion in people and making them feel something.
Speaker: He was like, I've had so many people approach me.
Speaker: Hey, you put your name on this, me, you'll make lots of money.
Speaker: And he's like, I always turn them away because that's not what I want.
Speaker: I want people to feel things.
Speaker: I want them to be there.
Speaker: I want them to be present.
Speaker: I want them to ask, like it caused themselves to question something.
Speaker: And recently he did like this in space with Markiplier where it's like a choose your own adventure on YouTube.
Speaker: And he was.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like he was talking about like how crazy it was because since he's a YouTuber, he's familiar with like how he wanted the lighting or how he wanted specific scenes shot.
Speaker: But then he couldn't like.
Speaker: have the right dialogue or the lingo to communicate that.
Speaker: So like that was a fun learning curve for him.
Speaker: And like, I didn't know I couldn't go and pull the lights down.
Speaker: I just did it because that's what I normally do.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: Yeah, it was really cool.
Speaker: My director friend, she said, you're learning something, right?
Speaker: You're going to be naturally hard on yourself, right?
Speaker: But the world is going to be hard on you.
Speaker: So give yourself some love, give yourself a break, and just let your creativity come out.
Speaker: The world will deal with the other part, the critics, the haters.
Speaker: And yes, you're going to learn from that.
Speaker: You're going to be like, oh, that's a good piece of advice.
Speaker: I didn't think about that.
Speaker: Or somebody read my script and they hate it.
Speaker: page 10 to 20 but then they fell back and that's okay now all of that's okay but i feel like there's no need for us to do that to ourselves to like be like self-hating you know i like that you know what i mean
Speaker: Do you think you will ever write a short story or a novel?
Speaker: Come to our side.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I really don't know if I would, because I think what you do will take time to really get up to speed like with anything else.
Speaker: Maybe the short story first.
Speaker: A 10-page story.
Speaker: I do like writing essays.
Speaker: I have some essays that I wrote, but then I have to research the subject and it's just, I don't think I would find the time.
Speaker: So I'll enjoy other people doing that.
Speaker: Well, yeah, I knew you were always busy, but I didn't know that you actually did screenwriting every single day and probably composing every single day and all of that stuff.
Speaker: I don't know why I didn't hear this term until recently that I use a lot perishable skills.
Speaker: And that's what they are, you know?
Speaker: So use it or lose it kind of thing.
Speaker: Now, I know writers that don't write every day.
Speaker: Kelly and I are like that.
Speaker: Everyone is different.
Speaker: And each screenplay that I start is completely terrifying to me because I feel like I don't know anything.
Speaker: I haven't done this before.
Speaker: So the everyday thing helps me to get through those things.
Speaker: The Dow.
Speaker: You know that book by Anne Lamott?
Speaker: Heard by Byrd, yeah.
Speaker: I love that book because she laid it out in there.
Speaker: It was real good.
Speaker: I think screenwriters should read that too.
Speaker: Set your butt down and read that book.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Our last question comes from Shays and my shared friend, Steffi.
Speaker: Which famous people would you invite to a dinner party and what would you cook for them?
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: Oh my goodness.
Speaker: Living or dead or?
Speaker: Doesn't matter.
Speaker: Doesn't matter.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How many people?
Speaker: It's your dinner party.
Speaker: You have to cook for these people.
Speaker: Okay, so I would invite Duke Ellington, Beethoven, Billie Holiday, a couple of my favorite filmmakers.
Speaker: Akira Kurosawa is my top guy.
Speaker: Jane Campion, Sally Potter.
Speaker: Those are two directors that I love.
Speaker: How many is that?
Speaker: Six.
Speaker: I'll drop another name if I can think of it.
Speaker: But what would I cook them?
Speaker: I would hope they're not all vegetarians.
Speaker: Okay, let's assume they're not all vegetarians and they're not vegan or anything.
Speaker: Let's assume they're all omnivores.
Speaker: I would make them a simple salad and then a steak and then ice cream.
Speaker: Thank you for being on here.
Speaker: Yay.
Speaker: Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker: We'll find a reason to have you back on too.
Speaker: I really want to come back on because I just have a feeling like this is going to be huge.
Speaker: This is the Writers Podcast and we'll be back with another episode next week.
Speaker: And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at the Writers Podcast and on Hive Social and Ko-fi at Writers.
Speaker: Bye.
