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Building Leadership and What War Does to Human Behavior w/ Eric Maxwell
24 Plays2 months ago
In this episode I sit down with 20-year Special Forces Veteran Eric Maxwell. We discuss what makes a good leader and how can one build leadership skills. How war impacts our human behavior. How has mental health changed in his 20 years of service. How to balance family life in the military and transitioning out.
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Transcript
Eric's Journey: From Marines to Civilian Life
00:00:01
Tony Montgomery
Hi, Eric. Welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on. um Just to give everybody a ah quick little bit of background um on you. We've known each other since kindergarten. We've been friends, been together, lived together our senior years of high school and played sports together and all that stuff. So we we have a long history together, um but also joined the military. um Together for the most part i went in first and then you followed suit and you stayed in and have done some amazing things and just recently ah retired after twenty years and the special forces and in the marine corps um so i think
00:00:46
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:00:49
Tony Montgomery
One, just the fact that we've been friends forever, it allows us to have conversations that a lot of people probably won't have, but also the fact that we served in the Marine Corps, not together, but um along the same lines of of of service.
Challenges of Military Transition
00:01:06
Tony Montgomery
um So I thought it'd be fun to have you on and ah talk about, you know,
00:01:10
Tony Montgomery
the things that you've learned in 20 years of of serving in the military at the at the highest level and then now transitioning out and getting more into the mental health side of things and and helping people with the transition process. So thanks for thanks for coming on the show, man.
00:01:26
ERIC MAXWELL
Nate, brother, I appreciate you having me. I think, yeah, this has been what, like 30 years in the making this conversation right here? Something like, yeah.
00:01:33
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah, 30 years. Yeah, long time. And the funny thing is, is like, where we were in elementary school, and then seeing where we were in high school, and then seeing where we are now, I don't I think me and you both would agree that like, we probably would have never envisioned the these are the type of people we would turn out to be and in this life that we have.
00:01:56
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I mean, I think joining the military is probably the best thing for both of us.
00:02:00
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, 100%, 100%, man.
00:02:02
ERIC MAXWELL
all
00:02:04
Tony Montgomery
It was, I always tell people that.
00:02:04
ERIC MAXWELL
I appreciate it and I'm looking forward to this. This will be good.
00:02:07
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I always tell people like if you don't, if you don't really have structure, if you don't really have a direction of what you want to do in life, the military is ah is a great way to figure that out.
00:02:18
Tony Montgomery
One, if you if you hate it, you'll spend Within four years trying to think about what you want to do to to get out and like make something of yourself. um But then if you love it, it gives you a community and a a sense of camaraderie that you're never going to be able to replace.
00:02:35
Tony Montgomery
Even within four years, you get that same sense of um friendship and camaraderie that is is really almost impossible to replace. And I think that is why a lot of people do struggle once they get out is trying to find that same community of those people that, you know, have your back no matter what.
00:02:54
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, for sure.
Building Community Post-Service
00:02:55
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. I mean, the military, won I mean, you know, right? Like it's an organization that has one mission, you know, that everyone gets behind, you know, and you come to that for that thing, whatever that is. And so you can't replicate that, you know, and, you know, when you spend 20 years doing something that you believe in, right? When you, when you stop doing that, you have a, you know, a sense of loss, you know, that purpose, you know, you spend it,
00:03:23
ERIC MAXWELL
fine trying to find new purpose. But yeah, it's an interesting, the military is an interesting organization in itself.
00:03:33
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah i mean even within the four years that I served, I still had that same sense of loss when I when i got out. and you know That's why I joined like a powerlifting community and then I joined a jiu-jitsu community.
00:03:46
Tony Montgomery
and it You're constantly trying to like find that missing piece and
00:03:50
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:03:52
Tony Montgomery
eventually for me it came down to the fact of like accepting that you're never gonna find that and just kind of being ah like you got to be okay with it or else you can go down a very dark path of like never being fulfilled and happy in life because you're constantly trying to find friends that will replace the other ones and it's just an impossible thing to do because you're not going to a war you're not serving, you're not around each other 24 seven, living together, like sharing all these experiences. ah So for me, it was mostly about like accepting that these communities are great, but it's never going to be the same.
Teamwork and Trust in Military Training
00:04:30
Tony Montgomery
And and I have to be okay with that or else I'm going to suffer, you know, for the rest of my life.
00:04:36
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. No, I mean, man, there's so much that you can unpack with what you just said, but you're right. You know, you can't replicate it because it's something, it just goes back to, I mean, you're a combat veteran, you know, like you're in those survival situations, right? And like just that primal, the primleness of, you know,
00:04:55
ERIC MAXWELL
having to watch each other's back out of survival, you know, that that you build connections and in times like that that you can't replicate, you know, anywhere.
00:05:06
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:05:06
ERIC MAXWELL
and Yeah.
00:05:07
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. And I think i think it's also a great, just like sports, like you have to learn how to work with people that you never would work with. Like you never would choose to work with these people. They come from such diverse backgrounds and they have their set of values and and core beliefs that they were raised on and you have yours And yet you have to make it work.
00:05:29
Tony Montgomery
You have to find a way to make it work. You have to find a way to get the best out of people and you have to find a way to get the best out of yourself too. You have to put a away all your biases.
00:05:38
ERIC MAXWELL
me
00:05:40
Tony Montgomery
You have to put away all your um prejudices and everything and you have to make it work because You have to trust them and they
Military Leadership Insights
00:05:49
Tony Montgomery
have to trust you. And without that, you're going to have a fractured team the entire time and talk about like a scary situation when you can't trust the people you're you're going into combat with.
00:06:01
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I mean that's ah And I think it happens kind of naturally in the military, especially in the special operations community, that that team building, like you mentioned, I mean, I spent more years just with my team or more time with my team than I did my own family for years, you know, and so I knew them, you know, oftentimes better than they knew themselves, you know.
00:06:24
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:06:25
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, but that team building, you know, from an organizational perspective, looking at it, you know, in the civilian world is like, you know, they, There's just that unifying mission and values and ethos that everybody is drawn to, you know, whatever service that is. And so they come to it looking for that, you know, and then it's, it's just unique in how everyone just goes towards the same, you know, objective, right? We get pounded, you know, in bootcamp, it's pounded into our head, mission accomplishment, and, you know, all those good things.
00:07:03
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, there I'm sure there's a lot of psychology behind you know the military approach to building. I hope that they put that effort into it.
00:07:12
Tony Montgomery
which
00:07:12
ERIC MAXWELL
It works.
00:07:14
Tony Montgomery
It definitely works. Yeah, I think and think there's something about like the environment that you're in, right? Like going to Parris Island in in South Carolina, right? Like it has this mystique to it that like, this is where you're going to train. Like you're going there, the whole process of like getting on the bus and they they strip you down.
00:07:37
Tony Montgomery
they cut your hair so you all you all look alike. um Nothing about your previous 18 years of life exists anymore and you all have the same uniform on, you all have the same haircut, you all look the same.
00:07:52
Tony Montgomery
They teach you that you all you all bleed green, right? Like we all bleed the same and they spend three months of
00:07:55
ERIC MAXWELL
And.
00:08:02
Tony Montgomery
almost, you would say, brainwashing you, in a sense. um But yeah, they do such a good job of like isolating you and even creating, ah even within the dynamics of like boot camp, they so they do a good job of like starting to create ah us versus them mentality as well like we had our unit and then you had the other unit and you guys were kind
Humility and Feedback in Leadership
00:08:26
Tony Montgomery
of competing against each other for like who was the cleanest unit who was the best unit so they gave you this responsibility that like we as a unit are looked at not as an individual it's not like the individual person there anymore it's like
00:08:41
Tony Montgomery
the weakest link is the one that's going to be looked at as the face of your unit. So how can you get them to step up to be the best? like how So they start that at such an early process of like, how can we get the best out of each other? And I i think by isolating us in those areas where you just don't really see anything else, I think that has a good good premise around it as well. And they they did the same thing with Special Forces too, where they put all of us in the bay and it was like, it's like a 20 minute drive to get to like the actual base around other Marines. So they they they always do this great job of like isolating you to feel like this is all I have around me. So now I have to make it work. Whereas like, if we were connected to other places, if we were connected to civilians more, then we would maybe not have such a camaraderie of like, these are the only people that I have, so I have to make it work, right?
00:09:39
ERIC MAXWELL
you Yeah, no. And boot camp, they they tear you down to build you up back up for a purpose. you know like You come there as an individual and leave as a Marine, as corny as that sound, but they do have that you know that we mentality. you know We are a team now. And it you know even in special operations and any anything in the military, right like you you have to rely on others there's nothing that you can do by yourself within within the DOD's mission set. right and so you know that the The teamwork and how you build teams in the military is it's it's something special.
00:10:23
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I agree. And just kind of building on that idea, right? um Especially when it comes to combat leadership positions, right? Because that's that's the next step, right? Like you can you can build teams um on the mainland and It's one thing to build like a motor unit team and a logistics team and a this team, but it's a different beast when you're building a combat ready team.
Leadership Styles Compared
00:10:53
Tony Montgomery
And and you did seven combat tours within your 20 years. So what are what are some of the key like leadership principles that you picked up at a at a young age
00:11:04
Tony Montgomery
that you've seen from the people and then what are some things that you developed once you got into those leadership positions that were key in order for you to build the the camaraderie, the team, the buy-in.
00:11:18
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. And I love i love leadership. now you know If I could spend any time studying anything and be leadership, it's so funny because they're so like no one can define leadership. I mean, there are definitions out there. There's a million and one different definitions of it, but no one can definitively say what leadership is. you know And in my opinion, you know I mean, leadership is leadership, you know whether it's combat leadership or you know leading a nonprofit organization, whatever you know whatever it is, all the principles are the same. I mean, there might be some different skills and approaches that you know vary depending on the environment you're in, like combat, for example, right? Like you know decisiveness is definitely something that you have to have, you know especially when there's people's lives on the line.
00:12:10
ERIC MAXWELL
But I recall, you know, growing up, I always tell this story when I had this conversation. I had a senior gunny, this was ah when I was in recount, third recount. And I mean, you know how the military is very rank structured and you know, ah but he was not like that, you know, and he was, that we ended up calling him Big Daddy, was his nickname. ah But you could tell that he genuinely cared about us, you know.
00:12:36
ERIC MAXWELL
And he was always pleasant to be around, you know, he'd come in like, what's up, suck a fish, you know, how you doing? You know, and he's seven talking to E3 at the time. And, uh, you know, I just think that authenticity and like knowing that he genuinely cared about our wellbeing and development, you know, it was, I didn't realize it at the time, but like, it was a huge leadership lesson for me.
00:12:59
ERIC MAXWELL
Um, just based on how I responded to that, you know, like I looked up to that guy and, you know, the era.
00:13:02
Tony Montgomery
Mm hmm.
00:13:05
ERIC MAXWELL
that we grew up in, you know, it was very marine course, like, hey, you will do what I tell you to do because I told you to do it, you know, no questions asked or else, right. And with him, we never had a fear of reprisal. It was always a fear of disappointing him or letting him down, you know. And so I think that was a much more effective motivator for me personally than, you know, having some Yeah, yelling at me, you know. And so, you know, as I grew up, I i ah started to kind of take that approach and, you know, when I was a team chief for Marsoc and, you know, i I made it a focus of mine um to have that style of leadership to where it's more like a big brother, you know, like you are.
00:13:59
ERIC MAXWELL
You care for them. You're looking out for them. They know that. They also know that if you mess up, you're going to put them in their place, you know, and there's
Inherent Leadership Theory
00:14:06
ERIC MAXWELL
always a balance to that. Um, but I find that that's, that's where that true loyalty is going to come from. You know, like in leadership in general, no one's going to follow you if they, if they think you're just a jerk and you don't have their best interests in mind, they're not going to follow you regardless.
00:14:26
ERIC MAXWELL
In that case, you're not leading anything, but, you know, you might be a supervisor by title, but yeah.
00:14:32
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:14:35
ERIC MAXWELL
and And yeah, so I personally, you know, I've been trying to develop this theory of inherent leadership and I think leadership is leadership and I think it's one of those human things that's inherent to all of us.
00:14:53
ERIC MAXWELL
um like love, right? And so I said, you know, it was talking about the definitions of leadership earlier. Well, you know, if I were to ask you, how do you define love? You know, you could probably give me a definition of it, but yours is probably going to vary, you know, in meaning and how you describe it and a whole bunch of other people. And I think leadership's, you know, pretty much the same. Everyone is capable of it. It's ah it's an inherent ability of humans, right? But how
00:15:25
ERIC MAXWELL
how and what that looks like, I think there is.
00:15:28
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I agree. And the interesting thing about the military is that you're gonna be put in a position of leadership eventually, right? Like that's one of the things about the military, um love it or hate it that if you stay in long enough, you're gonna get promoted, you're gonna be put in charge of people and you kind of have to figure it out. Like I know they do um NCO courses and they do they do leadership courses as well but a lot of it is kind of just figuring it out as you go and you you learn from the people that you you get to
00:16:04
Tony Montgomery
um But there's also a lot of people who um get promoted in these positions that aren't good. They lack like the leadership qualities. um But the thing that the military does is that they they put this fear in you that whoever's in charge, you you have to follow.
00:16:23
Tony Montgomery
But they like you said, there's a big difference between following somebody because you have to and following somebody because because you want to.
00:16:27
ERIC MAXWELL
Mm hmm.
00:16:32
Tony Montgomery
And it sounds like for you, the biggest driver of wanting to follow somebody is knowing that they care about you and that they're going to have your back and they're going to take care of you. um And they're going to respect your opinion. How do you how do you cultivate an environment um to make people ah feel comfortable being around you, ask questions, push back. I feel like the best leaders are the ones that accept pushback, intelligent pushback from other people, as opposed to we've all seen people that were like, I'm the leader, this is what I say, everyone does it, no questions asked. um How to have you gone about cultivating a community of people that feel like their opinion matters, feels like they, that you love them, how have you done that?
00:17:22
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, that's a great question.
Ancient vs. Modern Leadership
00:17:26
ERIC MAXWELL
Funny enough, I just call that my be a good human approach, right? you ah And I will, before I start on that, I will say the military is good at developing leaders.
00:17:39
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, I mean, obviously most of corporate America takes leadership principles from the military.
00:17:46
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:17:46
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, Simon Sinek and servant leadership and all that stuff. You know, that that's, he got that from the military, right? Leaders eat last. It's something that we all heard and do in the military. um But yeah, I look at, you know, to answer your question,
00:18:04
ERIC MAXWELL
you look back to like you know tribes. And so what like in early humanity, what did leadership look like? you know And that was really you know who was who was the best hunter in that tribe, right? And that person led the hunting party to make sure that they can go get food or who knew where the next water source was. Everybody followed that person to the water source. And so it was you know much more out of um, survival for the group. Right. And, and the best entrance of interest of the group. And I think you still see that now and how we define leadership, right? It's like inspiring action, you know, to achieve a common goal, you know, something along those lines of a definition for leadership. Um, but I think again, going back to that, you know, inherent leadership theory, like we are all humans and we all have these, you know, needs Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
00:19:02
ERIC MAXWELL
and you're gonna follow somebody who is meeting those things, who who you believe is going to meet those needs for you and whatever group that you exist in, right? And so just being conscious, I think, conscious of the human dynamic first is probably the first step. You know, like everybody is an individual that is choosing to be part of this group in the military, not so much choice, but you're choosing to be part of this group And, you know, having the best interest of the group in mind is where I always start, you know, and, you know, that's not to say that there's not going to be times where you have to do things that they're not going to like, you know, leadership is also about being able to make those hard decisions. But sometimes those hard decisions, they should always be made with the best interest of the group in mind.
00:19:59
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I I agree but Being the person that decides what that best interest is um could also rub people the wrong way sometimes, right? Because maybe the best interest of the group is not the best interest for a handful of individuals. um how do you How do you handle that balance of the best interest of the group, but also understanding that you're dealing with individual people with their own and individual emotions, their own individual responses of of how they're going to feel about the best interests of the group? How do you how do you deal with that?
00:20:36
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I've You know, I think just my natural personality, but that the approach I've taken is a very democratic leadership style in that sense. You know, I value everyone's feedback. You know, if it is a major decision, then um I'm going to engage with people. Hey, what do you think about this? You know, how does this impact you? You know, and if it comes to a point where I have to make a decision, then, you know, just have an open conversation like, hey, I know ah this Tony, I know that this is going to affect you in this way, but here's the reason why we have to make this decision. you And I think that the fact that you acknowledge that their needs and then explain to them why you have to make this decision, I think people are a lot more willing to accept that than just the, hey, you're going to do it because I said so.
00:21:28
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, I think for me, the people that I look up to from a leadership perspective can always kind of give you a definition of why you're doing the things that you're doing so that you understand better, right? The the poor leaders are the ones that say, this is what we're doing. No questions asked. We're doing it because I said we're doing it as opposed to this this is why we're doing this decision. It's gonna lead to X, Y, and Z down the road, you know, and that creates this buy-in. But a big part of that is also dissolving your ego, right? Because there's in leadership positions, there's a lot of ego that goes with that as well because you are now in charge. You do have the final say. um So how have you gone about
00:22:16
Tony Montgomery
separate in your ego that's telling you your decisions, the best decision versus being like, I got to put my ego aside and I'm going to listen to what these guys have to say. And then we're going to formulate the best decision and not think that that makes me look lesser of a person because a lot of people think that a lot of people think if I'm asking you for your opinion and I'm supposed to be in charge, maybe you're not going to think the
Self-Awareness in Leadership
00:22:39
Tony Montgomery
same of me. I should have all the answers and I think the best leaders know that they don't have all the answers and that the team around you that you've built is like, if you've done a great job building the team, you should respect their opinions because you've built them. you and And they're gonna see things so much differently than you. So it's important to have that. How have you put aside your ego to allow yourself to to do that? Or is there some things that you've learned along the way um that allowed you to do that?
00:23:14
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, you did bring up a good point that the, you know, a lot of people think that leaders have to be the smartest in the room and the most experienced and all that stuff. And that's just a fallacy. But the short answer is humility. You know, like you have to understand that no one knows everything. It's impossible. Right. And so, you know, being able to leverage the different backgrounds and diversity of the team, you know, that's, that's the strength of a good leader. Um, but also self-reflection, you know, like knowing where you are strong as a person, as a leader, you know, is also going to help you know where you, where you need to ask for advice. You know, if I'm not,
00:24:00
ERIC MAXWELL
knowledgeable or strong in a certain area I would much rather ask someone to get the right answer, then, you know, make a, make a call and it'd be a bad one and it, you know, negatively impact the team somehow.
00:24:15
ERIC MAXWELL
and so Yeah, ego is a funny thing, but I think you know there's a lot of personality involved in that, but it's it's really self-reflection and just humility. And again, keeping like what is what's best for this team in mind. you know Ego obviously gets in the way of that, but yeah.
00:24:36
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you open that door and you do get some, you do get some people on a team that are pretty dumb sometimes. And you're just like, man, like this guy, this guy's going to give me an answer and it's going to be a very dumb answer, but I got to make him feel like he's not dumb while he's giving me this answer.
00:24:44
ERIC MAXWELL
help
00:24:47
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:24:55
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah. There is that for sure, man.
00:24:59
Tony Montgomery
But humility is something that, um, I think for me, the most.
00:24:59
ERIC MAXWELL
but
00:25:06
Tony Montgomery
The thing that taught me the most about humility was like jujitsu and learn into learning to understand that no matter how big or small, no matter what their sex is, there's there's people out there that can kill you.
00:25:25
Tony Montgomery
they can They can beat you up, they can choke you out, and they can kill you, right?
00:25:25
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:29
Tony Montgomery
And there's always, no matter how good you get, there's always somebody out there that can do that.
00:25:36
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:25:36
Tony Montgomery
And to me, it was like doing going through that and doing that for for seven years, I was like, man, like
Lessons from Jiu-Jitsu
00:25:46
Tony Montgomery
this is dangerous.
00:25:46
Tony Montgomery
like It's dangerous to be not able to defend yourself. And and then that also taught me this idea that like if there's people out there that can that can choke you out that can that can kill you. There's also going to be people out there that that know more than you that have a story to tell that have some positive and impact um input. And that's the way I approach like every conversation I have, regardless of intelligence, regardless of
00:26:18
Tony Montgomery
anything, it's like, this person has a life, this person has a story, and it's my job to find them interested and to talk to them because every life is interested, but it's up to you to kind of like pull that out of them sometimes, right?
Unlocking Potential in Teams
00:26:37
Tony Montgomery
And I'm sure you've had to do the same thing where like, there are people, there are, you know, people that have been in the military for a year coming out of high school,
00:26:48
Tony Montgomery
And you got to work with them in your team. How do you pull out the best of them when in reality, they don't really have anything they can, can actually contribute because they are just 18, 19 years old. You know, so how do you, how have you found to be the best way to like.
00:27:10
Tony Montgomery
pull those things out of people to get the best out of them? is it Is it challenging them physically so that they can overcome things that they didn't think they could overcome? Is it challenging them intellectually? Is it just kind of allowing them to figure it out and mature? like What have you done? What have you seen to be the best ways to like pull the best out of someone?
00:27:32
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean, luckily, and, and you know, Marsoc and special operations community, we don't have any young, like 18, 19 off the street. You know, you've got to do some time, and then you go through, ah you know, year plus of training and stuff. So by the time they get to us, you know, they've got a one, they already have experience in the military, but they've got a lot of training as well. But that's not to say like our our new guys, right, you know, they get to, they're on a team for the very first time, they you know, baby Raiders is what we call them.
00:28:04
ERIC MAXWELL
They don't have a clue about, you know, what they just got themselves into. Um, but I think everyone has, you know, something to contribute. Even that young guy that doesn't have a clue, what I, what I found that those guys have is a perspective that's not tainted by experience and organization, you know?
00:28:20
Tony Montgomery
Mm hmm.
00:28:23
ERIC MAXWELL
And so those guys are, especially nowadays, you know, this generation is a lot more curious and needs to know why a lot more than I think we ever did. Um, but I loved it because, you know, we would go into mission planning or doing some, you know, whatever it was. And I encouraged people to ask why and, you know, speak their mind. It was very democratic, like I said, but I loved when they would say, why do we do it this way? You know, because it forced me to explain it and reason through it.
00:28:53
ERIC MAXWELL
you know And then sometimes I'm like, that is a good question. I don't know why we do it this way, man. This is stupid. you know And they might have a completely different idea or perspective that might work better. you know And so I think being open to those things, being open to change, that's where innovation really happens.
00:29:14
ERIC MAXWELL
you know
00:29:15
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I agree. um And then when it comes to like, Cultivate in a team culture because you're you're in charge of a team. um So typically, you you become part of a team. So you you learn how to serve within the team. And then you work your way up to be the team leader, which is in charge of about five, six people. um And then you continue to work your way up to where you're in charge of a platoon, which is about you know in special forces about 20 to 30, depending.
00:29:48
Tony Montgomery
And then then you can be in charge of, you know, 100 people. um Is there is there a difference between cultivating a good culture in a team of five versus like a team of 100? Or are the principles the same and kind of what are those principles?
00:30:08
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I mean, i I do think the principles are the same. And to backtrack a little to answer your other question when you asked about how do you develop those people, it's, it depends, right? There's a famous quote, it depends, but it's, it's individually based, right? So if somebody money is, you know, very much into their physical fitness or or is struggling with their physical fitness, that's where you say, Hey, I'm challenging, like, let's go PT, let's go do something. Or if there's the intellectual type, and that's what stimulation they need, like, it just depends on the the person and and how you challenge them is individualized, you know, and the military does do a good job about developing, you know, leaders and and
00:30:48
ERIC MAXWELL
those that you work for. But I think to your most recent question, that the same thing applies that at an organizational level. you You might not have as much direct influence on that, but you can, you know once you get to that level where you're in charge of 100 plus people, you know you do establish that culture. right And then you have those expectations out of your subordinate leaders, if you will. I hate the word subordinate.
00:31:19
ERIC MAXWELL
But, you know, that that culture starts with the leader, no matter what level it is. And so, you know, again, to me, it's the the good human theory, right? Is like, you have to have that sense of responsibility at at no matter what level you're at. People are going to choose to follow you because there, you know, there's a certain amount of self-interest in this, right? As a follower, right? I want somebody who can you know, give me development, whether that be professionally, personally, whatever that might be. And so you just have to be conscious of those things and how you set the culture and manage as well, you know, manage the culture because discipline is another issue that comes with leadership, you know.
00:32:09
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I agree. I think one thing you did you touched on that that resonated with me um in the, in the beginning was you don't want to your, the gunny that you worked for, you don't want to disappoint them.
00:32:24
Tony Montgomery
and then Once you get into that leadership position, I feel like that same disappointment is what drives you to be a good leader as well. like as As I have my own lab, as a mentor and undergraduates and stuff like that, my biggest thing is like I don't want them to think that I failed them.
00:32:45
Tony Montgomery
like I didn't prepare them, that I didn't get that i didn't put in the effort. right like So I think that that
00:32:50
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:32:51
Tony Montgomery
It's a personality trait that good leaders have is they don't want to let the other people down as opposed to self-serving their own ego of like you know constantly trying to stroke. It's like, I don't want these guys to think that I'm not a good leader, that I'm not putting forth the effort.
00:33:11
Tony Montgomery
So I think there is that common driving and factor for people of like, yeah, being ah being a good human means you don't want to disappoint the other people around you. You want to make sure that they feel like you're giving them their best foot forward as well.
00:33:24
Tony Montgomery
So I just wanted to touch.
00:33:25
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. The ego piece to that's huge too, man, because like you have to realize as a leader that it's no longer about you, right?
00:33:32
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:33:32
ERIC MAXWELL
Like, yes, like be proud of, you know, what you've accomplished or the fact that these people have chosen to lead you, but you have to realize The reason they've chose you you know chosen for you to lead them is because they think you're the best person that is going to get them to success, whatever that is, you know how they define it. So you know I think it's just a realization that it's not about me at all. It's about what I, as the leader, can do for them.
00:34:03
ERIC MAXWELL
you know
00:34:04
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, and I think that's manifested a lot in the military. I think when you get into civilian organizations, I've noticed this even in academia where you'll get these people that, you know, they get their doctorate and they think that now that I have this, doctor is earned.
00:34:27
Tony Montgomery
Like that's my title. You have to respect that title. But the the best ones that I've seen are the ones that are like, you can you can call me whatever you want. Like you can call me my name, you can call me doctor.
00:34:40
Tony Montgomery
It doesn't really matter to me.
00:34:40
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:34:42
Tony Montgomery
um I just want to make sure that every day I wake up that I'm able to serve you as opposed to you serving me and that I have to earn your respect each day. Like each day is a new day to earn someone's respect. It's like, I always think of it as like what I did yesterday doesn't matter. You know, so yeah, if I did something bad,
00:35:06
Tony Montgomery
It doesn't matter if I did something good, doesn't matter. Today's the new day that I have to earn that respect all over again. It's not like I get to build up all this equity and then just be like a shitty person for the next six months. It's like every day is a new day to to earn something, you know?
00:35:22
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, no 100%. And I think that's that humility thing too. And an importance of humility is because it does keep you hungry. It does keep you driving to
Military Mental Health Evolution
00:35:31
ERIC MAXWELL
get better, you know, and doctor or, you know, general, I don't, you know, I don't believe in the term expert in anything because that implies that, you know, everything about that subject and it's not possible. Right. And, but you should have that drive to continue learning, you know, and I do, I'm naturally inquisitive person, up you know, learners, one of my top strengths, if you, you know, follow Gallup and all that stuff. Um, but I think that, you know, desire to learn and it's, you know, openness.
00:36:03
ERIC MAXWELL
is was beneficial to me also as a leader.
00:36:08
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, do you guys do anything like that with like um personality testing or anything like that in the military to kind of figure out um how to best serve different personalities or is that something you kind of just build ah kind of like a plethora of and then you can kind of learn as you go. Do you guys do any personality testing or anything like that?
00:36:30
ERIC MAXWELL
Yes, um I wish we would use it more at the team level. Where it's most prevalent is in our assessment and selection. So, you know, they go through a lot of psychological testing and, you know, personalities. they're their All of that stuff is captured throughout the entire process that they're going through. there One, you have to, you know, get assessed and selected that says, hey, this is the right type of person that we want to join the organization.
00:36:58
ERIC MAXWELL
Um, and then you go through all of your training and it's, you're under the microscope the entire time. Right. And so like, by the time you get out of that, you know, they have a a very good idea that this is the type of personality person that we're looking for. You know, we, we assess on certain traits that we've identified, you know, that, that lend well for guys doing this job, uh, or gals and, um, you know,
00:37:29
ERIC MAXWELL
I wish, though, that we would incorporate that more at the team level and that that's structured wise, a lot of different, you know, as a leader, which is good, you have room to do, you know, make your own choices and and how you lead. But I think.
00:37:46
ERIC MAXWELL
When building teams, you know, having that understanding of personalities and who has what strengths and weaknesses, you know, and where, where can I put this person with this strength to make up for this weakness here? You know, like, I think that's the art of team building.
00:38:04
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, it is it is an art. It's not so much a formula or an equation. It's it's definitely an art to put those those right team together and to to get the best out of everyone. When it comes to like mental health in the military and dealing with that um on a personal level,
00:38:24
Tony Montgomery
How has that been something that that you've dealt with? Do they provide resources? do they provide How has that been over the scope of 20 years of of serving?
00:38:35
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I mean, I still deal with it, honestly. um I'll say it's gotten a lot better, you know. um Early on in my career, you know, the culture that we had, I mean, and it was during the height of the war, right? Like you just had to do, you know, you just had to go to war. You had to do what the nation needed. And it was just, you know, we were constantly deploying. And we had we had services, but, you know, the culture at the time was,
00:39:05
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, if you go to the BAS, if you go to medical, you know, you're seen as weak, right?
00:39:10
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:39:10
ERIC MAXWELL
look It was a very machismo, tough guy culture and it has to be, you know, at a certain level. And so a lot of guys. Never went, I mean, we, we had knee problems and all the problems we got now, and we just never got them taken care of because we didn't want to be seen as weak. Um, but that's the same thing with the mental health issues. You know, guys never. yeah Sought help because they saw it as weakness or, you know, their ego got in the way and I don't need help. You know, I, I survived all these crazy things in combat. Like if I can survive that, I can survive anything. Um, but I will say now, and especially in SOCOM, um, there.
00:39:51
ERIC MAXWELL
DOD-wide, apologies, DOD-wide, it's become, you know so ah priority overall. And SOCOM has done a phenomenal job with the resources and things that they've put together for that. And so we have you know command psychologists. We have a POTIF team, which is the preserv preservation of the force. And so that's you know physical. you know We have physical trainers. We have dieticians. We have know mental health counselors. We have all these different things. And it's the mind, body, spirit approach.
00:40:25
ERIC MAXWELL
But even still, right, a lot of guys, there's a stigma against going to that, right? Because I don't want them to think something's wrong with me and then it'll disqualify me from going on the next deployment or, you know. And so I hope that we normalize help, you know, normalize, hey, it is okay to get help. The things that you're going to experience in this job, you need to get help, right?
00:40:53
ERIC MAXWELL
And my own experience, I mean, I still deal with depression and, you know, some issues of PTSD and stuff, which is funny because when I was younger, I was like, man, PTSD is not real, you know.
00:41:02
Tony Montgomery
yeah
00:41:03
ERIC MAXWELL
Or I'd see all these, you know, crazy ah Vietnam veterans out on the street, you know, talking to themselves and, you know, bench check. I'm like, man, I get it. I totally get it, you know.
00:41:12
Tony Montgomery
yeah
00:41:13
ERIC MAXWELL
And I have a lot of sympathy for those guys that weren't afforded the help back then.
00:41:20
ERIC MAXWELL
But the other thing is, you know, I went through years and years of not even knowing that I needed help.
00:41:27
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:27
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, it had just become, you know, you're so busy, you're always deploying, it's, you know, you're just in survival mode a lot of times.
00:41:38
ERIC MAXWELL
And you just grown accustomed to, well, this is the way it is. And then, you know, at a certain point in my life, I realized like, I'm not happy, I'm not the same. I don't enjoy doing anything I ever did before, or you know, like this isn't me. And so I finally did get help and man, you know, I still, I still do. But it is, you know, a lot of guys just don't know that they need it, you know? And so, you know, the buddy check rule, right? It's always something, you know, reach out to a guy,
00:42:10
ERIC MAXWELL
Hey, how you doing? Check in on them. We watch each other's back in combat. we you know We have to make that a culture that we do when we get home as well.
00:42:19
Tony Montgomery
Yeah and I've i've read some some research on um stress resiliency in the military and on a lot of places or a lot of research now is looking at ways to assess mental health pre-deployment and then reassess it post-deployment to see kind of what's going on with with brain scans but also with questionnaires and um interviews and stuff like that.
00:42:49
Tony Montgomery
and I would have to imagine that that's going to become more and more prevalent, this idea that we have to put a lot of, not only do we have to focus on physical training and tactical training, but we also need to focus on like, how can we make them as mentally resilient as possible and not resilient in a way to where very motionless, but resilient in a way to where they can handle the things um to the best of their ability to, you know, think about cognitive reappraisal, think about um ways to reshape and perception and and stress and stuff like that.
00:43:28
Tony Montgomery
Is that something that you guys focus on without
00:43:28
ERIC MAXWELL
ye
00:43:32
ERIC MAXWELL
whom
00:43:33
Tony Montgomery
how to So I guess my first question is how do you focus on that without overstepping your boundaries as a non-clinical psychologist, right? How do you implement that yourself with your guys?
00:43:48
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah. ah One, we do, like I said, we have a lot of programs. We have staffs of clinical psychologists. We also have, you know, before you deploy, you you have a baseline, so they scan your brain. that You know, you do all these different cognitive tests, and they get your baseline. And then when you return from a deployment, you do it again. You know, and there's just all these checks throughout, and so they can see, you know, the you know the difference in in the the baseline.
00:44:18
ERIC MAXWELL
and monitor that. um But I think a lot of it's just going back to just talking to the people right and knowing your people, you know, what does what is this person's baseline, you know, and and on the mental health side of things is like, you should know your people well enough that if, you know, Tony comes in into the team room one day, and he's He's normally a happy go lucky guy and cutting up and doing all this stuff.
00:44:44
ERIC MAXWELL
And he's, you know, kind of just tucked in the corner. Obviously something's up, you know, so just talk to him like, Hey man, what is going on? You know, um, but as far as like development in the cognitive stuff, you're talking about, you know, Kim's games to keep in mind, you know, all those things that keep you sharp, um, are obviously things that you can do without, you know, having a PhD in psychology, right?
00:45:06
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:45:07
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, um, But yeah, I mean, it so you know how it is. You're always trying to keep yourself as sharp as possible. And as a leader, you you now have the responsibility to do that for your team as well.
00:45:23
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. And so do you guys do like um team building activities outside of military related stuff? Do you do like barbecues? or Are you like aware of trying to facilitate um bringing in the families, bringing in everyone and just trying to keep everyone together outside to build that to get that social aspect of mental health as well?
00:45:49
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I think that's more crucial than anything.
00:45:52
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:45:53
ERIC MAXWELL
For but for mental health too, right? Humans are social creatures. We need that you know so socialization. But in terms of building a team, like that's where a strong team really matters.
00:46:05
ERIC MAXWELL
And that, you know, when I was a team chief, that was what I focused on for the most part was making sure that our team, you know, is a close knit. Unit right like we have those interpersonal relationships with each other. We have that connection that can withstand all the, you know, the trials and issues that we're going to face throughout training and on deployment. You know, the tactics and those certain skills. Those are things that are all, you know, learnable.
00:46:35
ERIC MAXWELL
through training, et cetera, but that human dynamic, those relationships, that's something that, you know, has to be purposely built. And so we did, yeah you know, always had family barbecues, you know, like I wanted my team to be an extension of my family. Like we are a family and that's the approach that I always took.
00:46:59
Tony Montgomery
And now with that, with that being said, right, you can see, you can see the positives of that while serving, but then you can also see how once they transition out and they, they get out and that's gone, how that can be detrimental. Right. So how have they.
Transition Programs' Gaps
00:47:24
Tony Montgomery
Based on what you just transitioned out of, like how have they done a ah job ah better job of transitioning people out of the military? Because what you're saying now, like we didn't do any of that back in 2004. I was in from 2004 to 2008.
00:47:44
Tony Montgomery
any mental health training. We didn't do any brain scans.
00:47:46
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
00:47:47
Tony Montgomery
We didn't do any of that stuff. They didn't have nutritionists. They didn't have psych teams. They didn't have any of that. And then when when I got out, it was like my my team deployed again.
00:47:59
Tony Montgomery
I had to get my shoulder scope from the first deployment, so I didn't get to deploy. So I was like by myself, Everyone was gone. So I was already like, man, this this sucks already.
00:48:10
Tony Montgomery
And now I'm like getting out and going and moving back to Florida.
00:48:10
ERIC MAXWELL
will
00:48:15
Tony Montgomery
And then then you lose everything. And that was that was so difficult to deal with. So um are they doing anything different? Are they doing anything better to help people transition out of the military to to deal with that aspect? Because yeah, like you said, you spend so much time trying to build this family and then and it then then they're gone, you know?
00:48:39
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess my first answer to that is it's my hopes that those connections are so strong that that doesn't go away, you know, whether you're in the military or not. And, you know, I have friends, brothers, right, that my kids call uncle, you know, and they've known them their entire lives, you know. And so for me, you know, I have that still, you know, and some of them have gone away.
00:49:08
ERIC MAXWELL
But you know that camarader we talked about earlier, like i could I know that there are my friends and brothers out there write that I could pick up a phone and call and say, hey, I need you to do this. And they would stop whatever they're doing and come help me. And so hopefully you know they have developed relationships like that that they can rely on. The transition question is, yes, I think that they have gotten better DOD-wide. but it's not where it needs to be in terms of the mental health and those intangible things, right? The the majority of the transition programs that the DOD offers is you know making sure that you know how to build a resume and how to do your finances before you get out and all those little checks in the box that you have to do administratively for the military to get out or retire.
Support for Veterans' Transition
00:50:07
ERIC MAXWELL
But they don't focus a lot on you know finding your purpose and developing those intangible things that you lose when you get out of the military, which is why I actually just joined an organization, which is called the Honor Foundation. It's a nonprofit that is specifically designed for you know special operations.
00:50:32
ERIC MAXWELL
but it's a transition program for them. And that that was born because we saw the need for this this gap that exists in helping individuals transition.
00:50:44
ERIC MAXWELL
And so part of that program is, you know, the first phase is all about you, right? And so they walk them through, you know, gallop strings and career leader and, you know, a lot of these other resources that are out there that helps them do a lot of self-reflection, helps them, you know, reconnect with themselves because, you know, 20 years doing the same thing, especially in the military, you tend to lose yourself a little bit.
00:51:10
Tony Montgomery
Hm?
00:51:12
ERIC MAXWELL
And so this transition program, you know it one, helps them find their purpose or remember that, whatever that might be you know in those connections. And then it also helps them with you know the skills needed to be successful in and the you know civilian workforce and you know the networking, you know understanding corporate culture and and all those different things.
00:51:43
ERIC MAXWELL
So I think that that program is is a huge step in the right direction as far as transitioning. Hopefully DOD-wide realizes that and starts to invest in that as well.
00:51:58
Tony Montgomery
And with that organization, is that ah a nationwide organization or is it an organization just for North Carolina? And then how can people um become a part of that?
00:52:08
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, so it is nationwide. um you know and growing as well. And it's it it is for the special operations community, but we've the the organization has just developed something called Vector Accelerator, and that's for the larger service members that they can also you know benefit from the program that we've we've got going. But yeah, and you know it's a nonprofit obviously, so you know monetary donations and and those things are always useful
00:52:42
ERIC MAXWELL
But more so, you know, we leverage a lot of um coaches. And so each fellow is what we call them, each person that's coming through the program, we assign them a coach. And that's someone We try and pair them with someone. you know if If you say that you're interested in health and science or psychology, you know we try and find somebody with that background in that industry. But we we give them, each each fellow, a coach that can help them through this transition process. And so they you know it's not just focused on industry. you know A lot of times they will start talking about PTSD and some of those other issues, but you know it's kind of having a ah mentor to help walk you through that.
00:53:26
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, sorry, I got off on a tangent there.
00:53:28
Tony Montgomery
dog They can, so they can just go to the website to sign up for these services or is there, is that part of an outboarding process?
00:53:29
ERIC MAXWELL
What was the question?
00:53:39
Tony Montgomery
and board like
00:53:40
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah, sorry, that's that's where we go with this. Yeah, so volunteering is another way that people can get involved with this organization, right? Like coaches, you know, we do,
00:53:50
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:53:53
ERIC MAXWELL
resume reviews, you know, we do mock interviews to where it's kind of like speed dating for interviews, right?
00:53:58
Tony Montgomery
yeah
00:53:58
ERIC MAXWELL
We've got a bunch of, you know, these industry professionals and the service members go around and they interview and get live feedback. So, you know, there's there's also that way to get connected and and help to serve those who served us.
00:54:12
ERIC MAXWELL
And the website's honor dot.org, so H-O-N-O-R dot.org. And you can see, you know, all the different ways that you can get involved.
00:54:22
Tony Montgomery
Perfect, perfect. So yeah, make sure you check that out. That sounds like something you'd be interested in.
Human Nature and Combat
00:54:28
Tony Montgomery
um So you did you did seven combat deployments. So what what does it mean from a human nature perspective to to go to combat and to do what you have to do in combat? Like what have you learned about human nature from combat?
00:54:51
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, a lot. I mean, perspective one, right? You know, when you get in that situation, your perspective on life and what's really important changes.
00:54:59
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:55:00
ERIC MAXWELL
But there is, i mean there you know, obviously there's a lot of psychology and how that affects know the mind and everything else. But one thing I found very interesting was, you know, how you have to almost become emotionally hardened in those situations, right? You know, you witness some atrocities that happen, you know, your friends dying and, you know, just all the the gore and tragedy of war, right? But you don't have time to properly grieve. You don't have time to think about any of that stuff in the moment. You just have to, you know, continue doing to survive and to accomplish the mission.
00:55:44
ERIC MAXWELL
And so there is a natural defense mechanism right that you build up that allows you to suppress those things and bottle them up because you have to to keep on with the mission.
00:55:59
ERIC MAXWELL
But the problem that most of us have is you know stopping that when we come home. right like you know And that's a difficult thing to do.
00:56:05
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
00:56:12
ERIC MAXWELL
But yeah, you you really understand the value of life you know and you gain an appreciation for life and and the things that are in your life, you know especially you go to some of these thorough little countries and you see you know kids that are you know living in poverty you know and you hand them a soccer ball, which is you know a few bucks to us, but it means the world to them you know and to to watch them run off and play and you know do something like that for the first time, you know it's it really changes your perspective on humanity.
00:56:46
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, it really does. like that's That's the interest in dichotomy about combat is you go over there um to seek out and destroy the enemy. right But in that process,
00:57:03
Tony Montgomery
you develop a different sense of humanity for for the other as well. right um That's one of the biggest things that that I took away from um the combat tour that I did was that these these guys are just like us. like They have their families. They're trying to do what's best. They were raised a certain way that's different than the American way, but I could easily put myself in their shoes and be like, I could see myself doing what they're doing to survive because yeah, it is a survival for them. um So yeah, you are going over there with this idea of you're trying to kill the enemy, but you you come back with this idea that like,
00:57:53
Tony Montgomery
man, like human beings are are human beings, no matter what, even if they are the enemy, they are human beings. And that can make it very difficult as well, right? If you have that perspective, and you're on a mission,
00:58:08
Tony Montgomery
and casualties happen um either within your team or even in civilians outside of your team, even when you kill the the bad guy, right?
00:58:19
Tony Montgomery
Because like in their eyes, we're the bad guy as well. That's the way that I framed is like, we think we're doing the right thing. We think we're the good guys, but they also think that they're the good guys as well, right?
00:58:32
ERIC MAXWELL
you know
00:58:33
Tony Montgomery
So we can easily be in their shoes if we were,
00:58:33
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah
00:58:36
Tony Montgomery
raised in that environment. So it made it very difficult to make them the bad guys sometimes too. Never made it difficult to carry out the mission because the mission in my mind was to protect the people that we were with force and foremost.
00:58:52
Tony Montgomery
So that was do whatever that took. um But there are a lot of people and we do hear about war crimes all the time where they take that
00:58:58
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:03
Tony Montgomery
too far. they They dehumanize the person so much that they do commit these atrocious acts. And sometimes we say like, that's just that's just the business of war, these things these things happen.
00:59:17
Tony Montgomery
um but But yeah, it changed my perspective from the humanity side of things of like, you know there's I don't think there is
00:59:24
ERIC MAXWELL
What?
00:59:27
Tony Montgomery
And it's tough to say because you think about like World War II and you're like, there is, there's evil out there. There are evil people, but I think those are like such the minority that this whole good versus evil nature of war. I just don't think that that like truly, truly exists for the most part. What do what do you think about that?
00:59:48
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, no, I mean, that is such an awesome discussion we can have, man, because there's ethics and morals and sociology and all kinds of things that are involved in that. But you're right. so But just talking about humans in general, war is something that has existed for all of humanity, you know, and so it's just something that we do.
01:00:05
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:00:07
ERIC MAXWELL
Right. And you're right, though, you know, They're just as human. They may believe in their cause just as much as we do. And who who is the person that says that's right or wrong on either side? Who knows, right? But the other side of that is you can also see you know what humans are capable of, you know the the bad things that humans are capable of. And so, yeah, I don't i mean, it's so interesting.
01:00:40
ERIC MAXWELL
that whole that conversation that we can have.
01:00:40
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. why do you So why do you think war is such a part of human nature?
01:00:48
ERIC MAXWELL
I mean, it's one person's will against the other. you know like I think early on it was out of survivability.
01:00:52
Tony Montgomery
Mm-hmm.
01:00:55
Tony Montgomery
Mm-hmm.
01:00:56
ERIC MAXWELL
you know One person had the resources that we needed to survive. and so You know, that's what we went after. And then eventually it got to a point where we, it wasn't so much survival as it was, you know, ego.
01:01:14
ERIC MAXWELL
at that point, right? You get to the warlord era of leadership and it's about who manages the resources. And so it's always about resources for the most part, you know, as humans to meet those needs. oh But once you have those met, then I think it just becomes a ah battle of wills and ideology at that point.
01:01:37
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, because I always think like, yeah, I agree with you that that war started out with the idea that these people have what we don't have, or these people believe what we don't believe.
Conflict and Cooperation
01:01:50
Tony Montgomery
So therefore, we're gonna go take it. But like, why didn't we just say, like instead of taking it, like why don't we just work with them to cultivate a shared community instead of just taking it? like why Why do we have this scarcity mindset that the only way to get what is ours is to take it instead of work together to to grow something? you know And that's something that always perplexes me as far as human beings go and human nature
01:02:25
Tony Montgomery
is that dynamic of like scarcity mindset, we're going to take what's ours. And not like there's plenty to go around. Let's see if we can work together.
01:02:37
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:02:37
Tony Montgomery
yeah
01:02:38
ERIC MAXWELL
Well, I think it goes back to the individualization, you know, people, you know, people have the need to survive. And if they think they don't have what they need to survive, you know, it's like the dog in the corner, right?
01:02:50
ERIC MAXWELL
He's eventually going to lash out if he feels that threatened. You know, and I think that's where that kind of is probably deep seated. Um, but you still see it surface now, even, you know, you have a natural disaster, uh, or, you know, a storm comes through here. We saw not long ago, right? And everyone just runs out and gets toilet paper and it's, you know, we have the the mass toilet paper issue, right? But there is that scarcity mindset of, man, I need to have these resources because if they're not available to me in the future, then that affects my survivability.
01:03:22
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, it is, it is, it is interesting.
01:03:27
ERIC MAXWELL
Mm.
01:03:27
Tony Montgomery
Because i i wonder I wonder if they have that same mindset in like Eastern cultures, like Japan, where they're more of a community-based culture as opposed to an individualistic one. When they get met with natural disasters, is there a shortage of toilet paper in Japan as well? you know I often wonder that the whole like, I got to get what's mine. I got to feed my family as opposed to thinking about like, huh,
01:03:56
Tony Montgomery
if we share with that family and they share with us, we're gonna be far better off.
01:03:58
ERIC MAXWELL
Yes.
01:04:02
Tony Montgomery
um But yeah, I guess we don't we don't think about that. But I i also think that a lot of... war and that type of stuff, evil starts through envy and and resentment as well, right? If you think about World War II and Hitler and the the Nazi regime, that was built off of and cultivated off of resentment towards the Jews and towards the people that mistreated Germany in World War I. And even from an individual perspective, a human being that felt slighted because he didn't get into art college, he felt slighted because a Jew saved his life in World War I, you know, and
01:04:49
Tony Montgomery
um So that resentment just built and built. And I feel like resentment and envy are like the brother to evil. And then that's when evil comes into play. And it's like these people have what we don't have. Not only do they have what we don't have,
01:05:08
Tony Montgomery
But they've also suppressed us to where now we feel like we're never going to get it, even though maybe suppression never really happened. right But because the Jews were in charge of the money, the banks, everything, you know they felt like the Germans are getting left behind.
01:05:19
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:05:26
Tony Montgomery
So therefore, they're no longer able to to do those type of things. right So I feel like the same thing with you know the
01:05:30
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:05:33
Tony Montgomery
the Taliban and the way they looked at the West as these evil, they like built this resentment. And I feel like that's where a lot of it comes from is resentment towards others, as opposed to finding those commonalities and and thinking about that. is there what do you What do you think about that?
01:05:52
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I can see that. But I think that resentment still is traced back to, you know, an effect on my need, my human need in some aspect.
01:06:03
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, it's funny, I've spoke, I've asked some, you know, Taliban people why they fight us.
01:06:11
Tony Montgomery
Hmm.
01:06:11
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, a lot of them said because you're here, you know, and so, you know, it's a sense of like, you know, you're on my land.
01:06:14
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:06:21
ERIC MAXWELL
right I'm sure you know the Native Americans here were the same way. you know like they This was my resource that I had and now you're here threatening to take it away. and so that's where yeah you know After so long, there is a resentment in this ideology that builds up that, hey, time I don't like these people because they're a risk to my survivability.
01:06:48
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. Yeah. do you So do you think that people um are born evil? Do you think that they become evil over time? What do you think about that human nature argument?
01:07:00
ERIC MAXWELL
Mm. yeah Oh, man. You know, I like to be an optimist and see that everybody's good, but, you know, there I'm also a realist and know that there's some awful people in the world.
01:07:16
ERIC MAXWELL
But think it all stems from hurt. You know, I think everyone is probably born good in the human sense, right?
01:07:19
Tony Montgomery
Mm hmm.
01:07:26
ERIC MAXWELL
like You know, we're all a clean slate initially. Obviously there's some genetic issues and stuff that happen, right? Psychopaths and those types of things. um
01:07:37
ERIC MAXWELL
But I think, you know, when people start becoming evil, right? Is that a hurt? And you think about cartoons and like all these movie villains and all these things, right? Like generally they have a backstory that started with something that went wrong in their lives.
01:07:54
ERIC MAXWELL
that caused that anger and hurt you know to lead them down that path. And so I like to think that people are inherently good, however you define that, right? But the evil surfaces that hurt, in my opinion.
01:08:12
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I i agree um to to a large extent, right? If you think about 9-11 and the war that started because of that, that all started from the initial evasion into um into the Gulf War, right?
01:08:36
Tony Montgomery
And probably if you look back, there's probably other things that started, but it does come from that idea of like, if we go to a different country, like for instance, when when we're in Iraq and we're doing our missions and we have to go out for seven to 10 days to do a mission, we go to someone's house, we kick them out of their house,
01:09:01
Tony Montgomery
We're like, we're taking over your house. We got to run. So they have to pack up their stuff. They have to walk to their next family. So the the Taliban sees that. So then they automatically become an enemy of the Taliban. We put them in that situation. So then someone in their family could get killed from the Taliban because we put them in that situation. Then those kids who lost their parents can see us as the evil ones that put them in that, so yeah, it does always seem to, if you look back in there, there's something that somebody did to them and their family that caused this amount of hurt to where they're gonna be like, I'm gonna take care, i like ah whereas when I get older, my whole entire life is gonna be dedicated to dissolving this hurt that I had. So yeah, that i mean i think I think you're right on that aspect of things, yeah.
01:09:55
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they killed my dad. And so now I've got to, you know, avenge his death and And it's funny too, like even why, why did we go into ah Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place in response to 9-11?
01:10:11
ERIC MAXWELL
And really it comes back to that resources and protecting the homeland, right? Like we felt attacked and threatened our threat, a threat to our homeland.
01:10:23
ERIC MAXWELL
And thus we reacted to protect that, you know, and so that's, and then it's just a repetitive cycle, right? Like once you get into war,
01:10:30
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:10:32
ERIC MAXWELL
then all those little microcosms of events that happen, you know, just it's a you know perpetual cycle of hurt and all the other stuff that goes along with it.
01:10:43
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah even from even from our point of view, right? like 9-11 happened. Americans died. We felt hurt by that. We go over there. We fight.
01:10:54
Tony Montgomery
We lose one person in our team. So now we're angry and then we get ready for the next deployment and we're going to be like, yeah, we're going to get those people that got us. And yeah, it is, it is this.
01:11:03
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
Survival Mindset in Combat
01:11:07
Tony Montgomery
negative feedback loop that just never seems like it's going to end because wars never end. And it is a resource thing that puts, like a resource thing from the top that puts everyone else in these positions of having to fight and constantly fall into that cycle of hurt, revenge, hurt, revenge. And you don't really have a choice in the matter.
01:11:34
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, no. And I mean, the you know, the way that I approached it, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, taking someone else's life, you know, if you had to is on either side, right?
01:11:47
ERIC MAXWELL
I approached his, you know, it's either I'm going home to my family or he's going home to his.
01:11:53
Tony Montgomery
You have to.
01:11:55
ERIC MAXWELL
Right. And so they're back to that element of survivability, you know, but also knowing, you know, the humanity in that. Yeah it's tough.
01:12:06
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, it is, it is interesting, right? Like there is a, there is a right way to do war and a wrong way to do war. And when you say that out loud, it's like crazy, right?
01:12:16
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah
01:12:17
Tony Montgomery
you know But then there are some people that are like, there's no wrong way, like kill or be killed. I mean, when we first when as a whole, the military, when we first invaded Iraq and Fallujah, it was pretty much like no holds bar. There was no rules of engagement. If there was somebody on the streets,
01:12:38
Tony Montgomery
they were the enemy, you could shoot them, right? And then when I was there in 2006, there was a lot more rules of engagement, right? And then as we were leaving, it was like, now we have to win the hearts and minds. And it's like, what do you, like, what do you mean? Like we just, the first two years we were killing everyone. And now we gotta be like,
01:13:02
Tony Montgomery
are bad, like we're going to fix the situation now. And that was 20 years of that.
01:13:06
ERIC MAXWELL
Yes.
01:13:08
Tony Montgomery
And it ended in just complete and utter disaster. you know um
01:13:14
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. And there was an element, you know, I think memories can be deceiving sometimes too. And I thought the same thing initially, you know, but you see it now with, you know, Israel and some of these other ones, you know, it's, it's not just a free for all. Even in early Iraq, right? Like they would go into these known,
01:13:34
ERIC MAXWELL
um, terrorist villages, um, but they would call us, right? Like, Hey, we're giving you 24 hours of stuff and get out of here.
01:13:40
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:13:42
ERIC MAXWELL
And if you are still here, we see you as an enemy fighter, you know? And so I don't, I guess I'm careful in, um, articulating that, you know, I don't think it was, we all just went in there and sprayed and prayed to anybody that was there, you know,
01:13:57
Tony Montgomery
That's true. But think about it in terms of like, if they came to America and they were like, you guys have 24 hours to evacuate your homes.
01:14:05
ERIC MAXWELL
oh yeah
01:14:06
Tony Montgomery
you know how many Americans would be like, I'm fighting to the death, you know?
01:14:08
ERIC MAXWELL
oh yeah
01:14:10
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, it is it's ah it's a wild
Reintegration Challenges
01:14:12
Tony Montgomery
thing, man. It's a wild thing. How did you how did you mentally, um was it purely, I need to get back to my family.
01:14:23
Tony Montgomery
So I'm able to compartmentalize Eric in combat versus Eric when I get home. Like how did you,
01:14:32
ERIC MAXWELL
Oh, yeah.
01:14:33
Tony Montgomery
how did you min like How did you compartmentalize?
01:14:34
ERIC MAXWELL
Oh, yeah.
01:14:35
Tony Montgomery
How did you emotionally deal with going to combat, then coming back home to your family?
01:14:41
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, it's a switch leaving, right? love, oh, I forget the name of it. The, you know, you see it in the Japanese culture, the big, it's almost like ah the lattice work, the, what is it?
01:14:56
ERIC MAXWELL
Like the trellis type thing that the samurai's walked through.
01:14:58
Tony Montgomery
and
01:14:59
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, as they walked through them, that was, you know, they had that realization that I may never see my family again. Like that was their dividing line of I'm going to war.
01:15:10
ERIC MAXWELL
and that's all I'm focused on right now. I think it's very similar, right? You know, obviously, you know, you say your sad goodbyes and all that and they're always with you, right? You're always thinking, but when you go, you know, I have to focus on this one thing, which is coming home, you know, and all else, you know, everything else doesn't matter at that point. And so you have to go in with that sense of I might not come back, but I'm going to do everything in my power to come back.
01:15:44
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. And I think most of us that join now, especially during the war time, like we had that. We accepted it as a possibility, you know, and every one of my deployments, I knew it was a possibility, but you know, you still, you willingly do it, you know, and there is coming back is the hard part of turning that off.
01:16:05
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:16:09
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. How do you turn it off?
01:16:09
ERIC MAXWELL
you know, yeah all the reasons that we discussed earlier, it's a lot easier said than done.
01:16:13
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:16:17
ERIC MAXWELL
There we go.
01:16:19
Tony Montgomery
Is there, has there ever been a point in time where your wife was like, Eric, you're still in combat mode. Like you need to flip the switch. Like how long, how long did it take you to decompress to feel normal again?
01:16:35
Tony Montgomery
If you, you'll never feel normal again, but how long did it make you, how long did it take you to feel like you were yourself? You could be the loving, compassionate dad, husband, team leader. Like how long did that take? What was that process like?
01:16:49
ERIC MAXWELL
Oh, consciously, I mean, you know, so the reunions are amazing, right? It's such a roller coaster ride. You know, you're so sad, you miss them so much.
01:16:56
Tony Montgomery
yeah
01:16:58
ERIC MAXWELL
And then the reunion is such an amazing thing, you know, you know.
01:17:04
ERIC MAXWELL
And then there is a period of time, you know, probably a month to, I don't you know, whatever that is for whatever family of getting back into the swing of things, you know, you're re injecting yourself back into the life that your spouse and kids had to adjust to. And so for me, I always felt things are normal. You know, I knew that, you know, my wife was doing certain things that I normally do or whatever. And, you know, so transferring those responsibilities back and getting used to, you know, she doesn't have to do everything she has me here, you know, because they do become very independent out of their own survivability.
01:17:48
ERIC MAXWELL
That's the surface level things, right? But, you know, all those other impacts of PTSD and depression and all those things. i mean it took Even to this day, like I still have to consciously say, hey, be present in this moment right now. you know I think a lot of us need to do that.
01:18:11
ERIC MAXWELL
But, I mean, for years of shedding those things that have happened and those experiences and, you know, scars, physical land, you know, invisible scars, mental scars.
01:18:25
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, it's just, it depends on the person, you know, right? Like, yeah.
01:18:29
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, I mean, the the hardest thing for me when I deployed was, you know, my daughter was was very young. And then I deployed, like very young, she was probably like, maybe four or five months old. And when I got back, she didn't know who I was. So then you're like, you get back and you're very excited to see your family. And your daughter's like, ah
01:19:04
Tony Montgomery
I don't really know you like I'm scared.
01:19:05
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:19:06
Tony Montgomery
And you're already emotionally distraught because you had to go to combat you had to put that face on and now you come back and you're being rejected by someone that is doing what's natural that you're a stranger.
01:19:06
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:19:20
Tony Montgomery
You know, did you have any struggles with that like reintegrate in with your
01:19:21
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:19:26
Tony Montgomery
your family and them getting to know you as Eric the person, not Eric the military guy.
01:19:35
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I would say that, you know, I mean, I, good job or bad job. I don't know how you define it, but I separated the two a lot. And so, you know, they, my family doesn't even know a whole lot about, I mean, obviously they knew that I was in the military and, you know, I deployed and things like that, but, you know, they didn't know all the details and the ins and outs and, you know, and so I separated that a lot. Um, but it, it was a big stroke, which is one of the reasons I,
01:20:06
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, I love the job, but I decided to retire because I eventually realized, you know, I have spent probably half of my kids' lives away from them, you know, and so it affects your relationship with them. And obviously I want to have a good relationship with my kids. And so I just had to prioritize, you know, that, you know, over continuing on beyond.
01:20:33
ERIC MAXWELL
Which is another whole thing in itself is like you have to, you know, the the types of people that we are is, you know, you build those relationships and you don't want to let those people down, you know, and you, you know, Hey, I tell people I'm retiring and they're like, Oh, you quitter, you know, like, but you feel like a quitter.
01:20:47
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, you do.
01:20:49
ERIC MAXWELL
You feel like you're letting them down, but you know, and so you just, you got to prioritize, you know, and no one can ever say that you didn't do your.
Family Sacrifices and Support
01:20:59
ERIC MAXWELL
your part, you know, and that's what I had to convince myself is like, yes, it's my time to, to hang this up because my family is more important than any of this stuff.
01:21:08
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, I mean, I'd have to imagine and correct me if I'm wrong, but When you're with your team and you're giving them everything you have, you don't want to disappoint them. And while you're doing that, you're probably disappointing your family.
01:21:20
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:21:23
Tony Montgomery
Like you can't be everything for everyone all at once.
01:21:27
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah
01:21:28
Tony Montgomery
And the fact that you had to develop your team because your ultimate priority was to stay alive and come home. And the only way to do that is to fully engulf yourself into team development and building in that camaraderie. But at the same time, you're distancing yourself from your family, every deployment.
01:21:51
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, but it goes back to you know everything we've talked about so far, the leadership, the purpose, the humanity, right? like it's you know I'm doing this. I'm willingly putting my life on the line and doing all these things.
01:22:05
ERIC MAXWELL
My family is sacrificing you know relationships, time with me, all all this stuff, but that's how I put food on the table for them.
01:22:07
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:22:14
ERIC MAXWELL
That's how I protect them. you know And so you look at those Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like by doing what I'm doing now, which maybe this is just how I justified it throughout all my years. But like that's how I meet those needs for your family.
01:22:28
ERIC MAXWELL
you know
01:22:29
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, I think that's one thing I think about a lot is like. We as human beings are very good rational creatures. We rationalize everything the best, right? And I was i also often ask myself, like, am I rationalizing to make me look like the winner all the time?
01:22:52
Tony Montgomery
And I need to take a step back and be like, is the are these rationalizations like accurate? you know I got to do that a lot. Because it is very easy to justify and rationalize the decisions you make for the greater good.
01:22:59
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:23:06
Tony Montgomery
right So I often have to pull myself back and be like, you're being an asshole right now.
01:23:07
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:12
Tony Montgomery
like you're you're You're just winning, even though you shouldn't be winning.
01:23:13
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:23:16
Tony Montgomery
like Quit doing this type of stuff.
01:23:17
ERIC MAXWELL
yes Yeah, but that comes back to that soap reflection and awareness, man.
01:23:18
Tony Montgomery
you know
01:23:22
Tony Montgomery
yeah Yeah, me too.
01:23:23
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, I live in my head. I do. It's good and bad, right? Like, but you should be able to, you know, why, you know, I yelled at my kids the other day, not a proud dad moment, but like, you know, afterwards I'm like, why did I do that?
01:23:38
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, was I really mad at him for what he did? Or, what you know, was I just stressed out with all the other things going on? Like, you know, um, but yeah, we, we can talk ourselves into anything.
01:23:45
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:23:51
Tony Montgomery
yeah Yeah, you have to be careful. Very, very careful about that. um One of the things that happens in the military a lot is high rates of divorce.
01:23:55
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:24:04
ERIC MAXWELL
Mm-hmm.
01:24:05
Tony Montgomery
And it's even more prevalent in special forces. um You and your wife have been together for the entire 20 years you guys um got together in high school, I believe it was senior year. um So you guys have been together for 20 plus years, you have a whole football team of kids.
01:24:27
Tony Montgomery
You know, um how did you guys how did you guys make it work when all the odds were against you? I'm sure your wife is probably the reason why it's worked.
01:24:42
Tony Montgomery
Give her all the credit probably in the world.
01:24:42
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, yeah, yes.
01:24:45
Tony Montgomery
um Because I think one of the hardest things to do is to leave your family and then they become independent of you.
01:24:57
Tony Montgomery
and it's up to her to let you back in. you don't You don't deserve the right to be in. They have to let you back in. So that means they have to unhinge their entire independence to let you back in.
01:25:12
Tony Montgomery
And that takes a very, very strong woman to do that. So how did you guys make it work for 20 plus years when when the odds, like what what do you think is the key to a successful relationship in the military?
01:25:16
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:25:27
ERIC MAXWELL
Oh, God. I mean, I'm the wrong person to give that advice.
01:25:32
Tony Montgomery
i Yeah.
01:25:33
ERIC MAXWELL
No, I mean, I do give all the credit to her. I mean, I don't know how she's put up with me for so long. but Like it, I mean, they, the spouses are the unsung heroes, man.
01:25:39
Tony Montgomery
yeah
01:25:44
ERIC MAXWELL
They truly are. You know, and I, you know, I talked about it a little bit in my little retirement spiel speech or whatever to her, but, you know, in, in that instance, in my retirement, I didn't want really, honestly, any, I didn't care about the, you know, ceremony or anything like that.
01:26:03
ERIC MAXWELL
Like I, I wanted to use it as a way to honor her for all of the stuff that she had done throughout the years. Cause they don't get awards, right?
01:26:10
Tony Montgomery
Right.
01:26:10
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, um, although they should, um, But you know there's probably so many things that i I don't even know that she had to deal with you know while I was gone. But it is. It's work. It's communication. you know And just a choice, honestly. It always comes down to the choice. It's like, hey, you know this is the person that I chose to be with.
01:26:41
ERIC MAXWELL
how how do we make this
Prioritizing Relationships
01:26:43
ERIC MAXWELL
work? you know And for both of us, family is a huge thing. you know We both came from broken families. And so that was you know something that we never wanted our children to have to experience.
01:26:55
ERIC MAXWELL
And so, yeah, I mean, definitely tough at times.
01:26:59
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:26:59
ERIC MAXWELL
you know I'd be lying if I say we weren't on the brink of divorce at certain points, but you know we love each other very much. And our children, our family, we love.
01:27:10
ERIC MAXWELL
And it's a choice that, you know, you have to make of, you know, am I willing to make these changes to make this work? You know, and you grow together. That's, you know, you have to grow together.
01:27:25
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I agree. I think. Choice is like the most important part when it comes to a successful relationship. Like but just like we talked about earlier, where like you have to earn every day you wake up, you have to earn the respect of everyone.
01:27:42
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:27:42
Tony Montgomery
Every day you wake up, you have to earn the love of the person. And that requires a lot of self-sacrifice and requires a desire to want to change for that person.
01:27:52
ERIC MAXWELL
Hmm.
01:27:54
Tony Montgomery
But it always comes down to like a choice first. right And I think that's one of the most powerful things to a successful relationship is understanding that like it is a choice that you have to make every day. And it's not supposed to be easy. It's not supposed to be this like romantic love that never faces any bumps in the road or anything like that. right like Get rid of the Disney picture of what love is. right It's supposed to be hard work.
01:28:25
Tony Montgomery
you're gonna constantly think like, man, is it supposed, like, is it supposed to be this hard? Should it be more natural? Like, shouldn't we just be in love and like, we shouldn't have to work this hard? You know, why do we argue? Why do we, there's other people that don't argue and they're full of shit. They argue all the time too, right? It's like, but yeah, every day it's a choice you have to make to be with the person that you love. And I think in the military, it's very easy to not choose that because you do have your family, you do have your brothers to fall back on. And that that's a different kind of love, but I can see why it's very easy to choose that. And then I can see why the spouse always feels like they're not being chosen.
01:29:12
Tony Montgomery
you know And I think that creates a lot of the internal like tension of why relationships don't don't last. And you have to have somebody, especially on your side, a spouse that is incredibly understanding of that dynamic of like, yeah, he's not choosing them over us, he's choosing life so he can be with us.
01:29:39
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah
01:29:39
Tony Montgomery
you know And I think, um I mean, I've heard Jaco talk about a ah handful of times with his wife and it was very, very similar dynamics of like, that she was the backbone. And if it wasn't for her, choosing to be okay with being not the top priority so that you can come home to be alive to do all that stuff like that's the choice she made and now you choose to honor that and that's like you said that that's one of the things that you wanted to do was honor her and honor that commitment um but I think that ability to choose that commitment is
01:30:19
Tony Montgomery
the most important thing when it comes to a relationship, especially now when there are so many other options available with the click of your phone to always think like, oh, things could be just so much better.
01:30:23
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:30:33
Tony Montgomery
It's like, no, they can't.
01:30:33
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:30:34
Tony Montgomery
like you year year yeah You're fucked up.
01:30:35
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah
01:30:38
Tony Montgomery
like You have all kinds of problems. Trust me, things aren't going to get better.
01:30:40
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:42
Tony Montgomery
You got to work it out.
01:30:43
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. No, you're right, man. it comes to It is, I think the two words that I would describe it as choice and commitment, you know. Yeah, because once all those, you know, like you said, Disney feelings fade away and they will eventually, you it is a commitment, you know, like you have to choose to to honor that commitment that you made. And the other thing I think too is friendship. Like you have to be friends, you know, because there is a time when, you know, it shouldn't ever disappear, the romance, right? You should always invest in that.
01:31:18
ERIC MAXWELL
But, you know, you have to be friends with that person because when you're like 70 years old and you're sitting across and looking at this person in a rocking chair, you know, all your kids are gone and it's just you two, you want to be able to hang out with them and not be miserable, you know, like, so you know, you have to develop a friendship as well.
01:31:31
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah
01:31:35
Tony Montgomery
yeah you got to do cool shit together. You got to form memories. You got to treat her like she's one of your best friends that you're excited to hang out with.
01:31:39
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
Lessons from Special Forces
01:31:45
Tony Montgomery
you know um what what ah as you As you got out, as you contemplated your 20-year career, what what are some of the things that you learned from Special Forces and being in Special Forces?
01:31:46
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. Yeah.
01:32:00
ERIC MAXWELL
Hmm. Hard work and dedication will take you most places you want to go. You know, that's the first thing that comes to mind. And the second immediately after that is, um, you've, you've got to prioritize and what's important to you, you know, and the military, especially in just in life in general, the world will take as much of you as you're willing to give. And so if you don't,
01:32:29
ERIC MAXWELL
prioritize those things that are important to you, whatever they may be. For me, it's family. you know Obviously, the world, the military, they're gonna take and take and take. you know That's just the nature of what it is.
01:32:41
ERIC MAXWELL
And so you have to have those you have to have that clarity yourself first, and then you have to be able to set those boundaries.
01:32:49
ERIC MAXWELL
But yeah.
01:32:49
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. No, especially the the work part too, um because the attrition rate for special forces is 80, 85% dropout. They don't make it. So you you learn to to work really hard. You learn to overcome very tough physical and mental challenges. um Why do you think some guys take those intangibles and run with it and be successful out of the military. And why do you think some people um don't,
01:33:25
Tony Montgomery
you know, there's, there's a lot of people that get out and they don't take that discipline that that work ethic with them. They, they leave it behind. Do you think it's like, um do you think it's like a mental health thing that they just can't overcome? Or do you think it's an actual like,
01:33:43
Tony Montgomery
rebellion of what they just went through? what do you Why do you think people aren't successful out of that?
01:33:50
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I would say generally right in the soft community, you have guys that are successful ah and it all goes back to mentality. You know, another thing that I learned in the military.
01:34:01
ERIC MAXWELL
with some of the stuff that I've been put through is like, your mind will get you through just about anything. There's so many times when I thought, I can't do another pushup or I can't run another mile with all this weight on my back, you know but like that mental toughness to say, no, you will do this. Like your mind will tell your body to do some incredible things that you never thought would be possible. you know And so,
01:34:28
ERIC MAXWELL
that that mindset that most guys have in SOF that get them through all of those things, that push them to mission accomplishment no matter what. i am um dedicated to this and I'm going to see it through. you know Those are the the traits and qualities that I think lead them to success afterwards. And you know that's not to say that there's not those out there that do struggle when they get out. you know Big reason why the Honor Foundation exists itself is you know to help those people transition ah to be successful. But I do think you know sometimes it is you know guys just
01:35:07
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, they hated their time in being told what to do, when to wake up, you know, you have to get a haircut and shave every single day, you know. And so maybe, maybe for them personally, they just value freedom. And when they get out, they don't want anything that resembles that, you know, so maybe it is a little bit of rebellion. But I think it all goes back to mentality, you know.
Sharing Military Experiences
01:35:30
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, no, I agree. And um one last thing. So for the for the longest time, um the Special Forces community was very like secretive. And they didn't really talk a lot about what was going on. and now um one of the first people, Jaco, that wrote a book and shared their experiences. Now you get more and more people writing books about their military experience. Do you think that's ah the that's a positive thing? Do you think that's a negative thing? What do you think about that sharing and of military experiences?
01:36:08
ERIC MAXWELL
It's good and bad. It's bad in the sense of if it jeopardizes security, obviously, right? Like they're, you know, secrets are secrets for a reason.
01:36:20
ERIC MAXWELL
I think the sharing the experiences is extremely valuable. You know, the military is obviously a test bed for a lot of things, you know, that eventually come over to the civilian world.
01:36:32
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, a lot of technologies, even, you know, principle leadership is a huge one. You know, like we talked about earlier, silent Senate, conservative leadership, you know, that's bled into, you know, corporate society nowadays. And so I think if they're writing it, intent is the other thing, right? So if they are writing it with the intent to share their experiences that others can positively benefit from it, um then I think it's an amazing thing.
01:37:00
ERIC MAXWELL
Now, if they're writing it, like you see a lot of some people doing nowadays in self-interest, hey, how do I get my next movie deal, right? Or how do I, you know, whatever that is, then obviously that's self-serving and not beneficial to anybody really, but that person.
01:37:21
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. Cause we, I see this a lot now with like, um, the whistleblower type people. So they'll go on these special ops shows and they'll talk about, you know, intelligent stuff and the.
01:37:39
Tony Montgomery
um The thing that comes to mind is the Green Beret who ah just died in Vegas with the Tesla truck, right? And like ah two days later, there was a podcast about that situation and how it was could be a potential PSYOP could be a like all these potential things and it does seem a lot of times like people are trying to become famous by exploiting the military as opposed to I think the guys like Jaco who are trying to give experiences of how to become better human beings through their military experiences so
01:38:02
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:38:20
Tony Montgomery
I think you can clearly see the ones that are trying to trying a little too hard to be cool, you know?
01:38:27
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. When it goes back to ego too, you know, like,
01:38:30
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:38:31
ERIC MAXWELL
I don't need to get on any podcast or anything and tell you all the cool things that I did because I know what I did, you know, and and unless it has some value to you, like, what's the point of sharing it?
01:38:46
ERIC MAXWELL
You know, I don't know. I don't have anything to prove to anybody anymore at this point in my life. And so, you know, I don't know.
01:38:51
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:38:54
ERIC MAXWELL
I think there's definitely some ego involved in that.
01:38:58
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, I often wonder if they think that they're actually doing the right thing, or if they think that they only care about like, bottom line trying to get as many views as possible type of situation. um Obviously, you never know the intent of other people, their true intents. um I think with time, and I think with time you can figure out people's true intents because time reveals everything.
01:39:21
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:39:24
Tony Montgomery
you know That's why long conversations are great because somebody's going to slip up eventually if their intentions aren't true. you know um Yeah, it is it is something that I scratch my head about a lot nowadays with that type of stuff coming out.
01:39:38
Tony Montgomery
um
01:39:38
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. And there's a lot of many use and. From a business sense, yes, it it is a very marketable thing, right? Because, you know, you see this group of individuals who are highly trained and, you know, they do have some amazing experiences that no one else does. And so those people out there, they can learn from you. And so it's highly marketable from a business perspective, like, you know, even in my business, you know, I haven't mentioned the fact that I was in special operations. You know, I don't, I try not to go,
01:40:12
ERIC MAXWELL
overboard with it, you know, and be the cool guy, right? But, you know, it is, it is something that people value and seek
Leadership and Creativity
01:40:19
ERIC MAXWELL
out. And so I think from a business perspective, you know,
01:40:19
Tony Montgomery
And.
01:40:25
ERIC MAXWELL
having that background and saying, yes, here's where I'm coming from, my experience isn't a bad thing. Just like a doctor, like I'm um'm from a medical profession background, you know, like this is my background.
01:40:41
ERIC MAXWELL
Now, when it's a ah story of me with, you know, long hair and a beard and my sunglasses and cool guy stuff on the front of the cover, you know, I think that's a little bit different, right?
01:40:50
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, very, very different.
01:40:51
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah.
01:40:53
Tony Montgomery
And then speaking of books, you recently wrote a book and it came out about a month, month and a half ago. um What exactly can you give a little bit of details of what that book covers and how can people purchase that book if they're interested?
01:41:10
ERIC MAXWELL
Yes, I've done a couple now and they've been collaborative books. So I didn't write it by myself. I had a chapter in this book. The most recent one was titled Life Changing Leadership. And that was a collaboration between myself and a bunch of other ah military leaders. And we basically all told a story about how an event or a series of events changed our perspective on leadership.
01:41:40
ERIC MAXWELL
And so my chapter in there was really about um my family. you know And I think I learned more about being a leader from being a dad than I did in any of my combat experiences. you know And it goes back to that theory that I've been working on. And you know democratizing leadership, is it's just a human thing, right? Because you you look at um you know my wife, for example, she led our family for the last 20 years, you know? And so that's leadership, right? You know, like she's inspiring action and all these other things to a common goal, the success of our family, right? And so, you know, I'd talk a little bit about the inherent leadership theory in that book briefly.
01:42:32
ERIC MAXWELL
And just, you know, I hope readers can see, you know, how important family is to me in that and how it shaped my perspective on leadership. But, um, yeah, that's why you can get it on Amazon.
01:42:46
ERIC MAXWELL
It's, you know, Kindle, um, now, or, uh, it's called life-changing leadership.
01:42:48
Tony Montgomery
with the name of it? Okay.
01:42:53
ERIC MAXWELL
Um, but yeah, it's, there's paperback option. But writing is something I, you know, I used to write poetry when we were in high school and stuff. And I, you know, I forgot about that for, you know, I did it sporadically throughout, you know, I'd write stuff, little love poems or something.
01:43:08
ERIC MAXWELL
But, you know, that's something that I recently discovered, rediscovered a passion of mine. And so I'm actually working on another book right now. It's a, ah like a fantasy novel.
01:43:18
ERIC MAXWELL
And, you know, it's funny, it's my inner nerd in me, right? But, I mean, I tell you though, I have just enjoyed
01:43:22
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, that's awesome.
01:43:26
ERIC MAXWELL
The process of writing and being creative has always been something I value. And so it's really cool to get back into something that you, you know, you're passionate about, but we forgot about.
01:43:36
Tony Montgomery
yeah Yeah, I think the exploration of like that creative side of somebody that comes from our background is really important.
01:43:36
ERIC MAXWELL
So, yeah.
01:43:45
Tony Montgomery
right like you When you value intellect and learning, you have a tendency to subdue the creative side for the intellect, but finding that balance, like,
01:43:59
Tony Montgomery
you look back and you got guys like Einstein and Richard Feynman and these guys loved like poetry and art and that type of stuff. So I think having that creative expression, one is great for everyone, but two, I think it also allows you to um develop a story and help with like mental health as well, right?
01:44:08
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah This one.
01:44:25
Tony Montgomery
Cause you're able to tap into things from a story format that if it wasn't in a story format could be very hurtful and and dangerous. But the fact that you are creating this world, this poem, this whatever, allows you to do it in a way that gives you the ability to express yourself when you feel like a lot of times you're not able to to do that.
01:44:52
Tony Montgomery
So having tapping into that creativity does allow for beautiful expression of a very difficult, difficult things. So that's all on that.
01:44:59
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah. And it's been extremely therapeutic for me, to be honest with you. And I'm sure like your, you know, your field of study.
01:45:04
Tony Montgomery
Yeah.
01:45:08
ERIC MAXWELL
um You've probably known me longer than anyone, man. And you know, that I've always been kind of a nerd anyways. You know, I've always loved the arts.
01:45:15
Tony Montgomery
the
01:45:17
ERIC MAXWELL
I've always been in band and, you know, I used to want to be a cartoonist and I read every dinosaur book. You know, I still watch documentaries every single night. It'll drive my wife crazy. But, you know, eventually, um you know, when we got in high school, when we were both playing sports, you know, like we got in and that we were kind of that jock click, you know, and like there's a certain expectation of you as you're, you know, you're this tough, jock, cool guy, you know, and then It even, it went further in the military, right? Like I, you know, I was in recon and then special operations and there was this like tough guy machismo culture, you know, and like that's, that's what I was for so long. And so getting now, getting back to kind of rediscovering, you know, my inner nerd, you know, those things that I am passionate about art and drawing and, you know,
01:46:10
ERIC MAXWELL
music and writing and you know all of those things it's you know it's a rediscovery process that's been very therapeutic for me and we actually they actually do I went through another program ah called Intrepid Spirit here on base and that's that's four people who've suffered ah traumatic brain injuries but they do offer music therapy and art therapy and you know I know you know that there's a lot of science behind those things but yeah since
01:46:36
Tony Montgomery
Yeah. Yeah. I love that, man. I love
Gratitude and Friendship
01:46:40
Tony Montgomery
that. Well, um that's it for for the for the interview, man. I just want to say, first off, thanks for your service.
01:46:48
ERIC MAXWELL
yeah you're steve
01:46:49
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, yeah. 20 years is incredible. And then, you know, as always, thanks for your friendship and, you know, very, very lucky to have you in my life and and have you as a friend, man.
01:47:00
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I feel the same and honored to do this with you, man.
01:47:03
Tony Montgomery
Yeah, appreciate your time, buddy.
01:47:05
ERIC MAXWELL
Yeah, I really.