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SCARY FRIENDS SCARING FRIENDS w/ JOSH MALERMAN and ROSS JEFFERY
80 Plays4 months ago
Josh Malerman and Ross Jeffery join the show to talk about their newest books, INCIDENTS AROUND THE HOUSE, and I DIED TOO, BUT THEY HAVENT BURIED ME YET, as well as the collaborative, almost serialized way that they wrote the books together. We dig into the importance of writing partners, friendships in the horror community, and some of the ways that a good confidant can improve your works, creatively.
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Transcript
Introduction to Killer Mediums Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Alright, hey listeners, this is William Sterling and you're listening to the Killer Mediums podcast where we talk about all your favorite horror tropes and how they manifest across all your favorite mediums of entertainment. Today's topic is a little bit atypical. Instead of digging into a specific trope, what we're going to do today is we're going to talk to a couple of cool dudes about writing partners, building friendships in the horror community, how collaboration can improve our storytelling, all that jazz.
Focus on Recent Releases
00:00:27
Speaker
ah We're going to try to center the discussion around two of their more recent releases, I Died Too, but they haven't buried me yet from Ross Jeffrey and Incidents Around the House by Josh Malerman. But honestly, who the hell knows where we're about to spin off into? We're here for the vibes and the friendship tonight. So let's grab a drink if you want one and let's get spooky.
00:00:56
Speaker
foreigners tied bells to everybody in the morgue. So if they had a ting, they knew somebody down there wasn't quite ready to go.
00:01:18
Speaker
Gentlemen, how the hell are we doing tonight? Very good, thank you. Extraordinary. Good to hear. I am so excited to do this episode. ah Ross, we have talked before. um We did an episode before. We've been kind of going back and forth in emails and stuff with other secret little projects that we've been working on. So that's fun. Josh, this is my first time meeting you. Thrilled about that. But for anybody listening that doesn't know who the two of you are because they live under rocks, ah Could we do some just short introductions, maybe starting with Ross?
Meet the Authors: Ross Jeffrey and Josh Malerman
00:01:52
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Yeah, I'm Ross Jeffrey. I am the author of ah The Devil's Pocketbook. I died too, but I haven't buried me yet. The Juniper trilogy and a few others that are coming up soon, but I'll probably talk about those towards the end. um I live in Bristol in England, um and I write a lot about grief horror.
00:02:14
Speaker
the very sad You do it very, very, very well too. I'm Josh Malerman. I'm the author of Bird Box and Goblin and Ghoul in the Cape and Incidents Around the House. And I am also one of two singer-songwriters of ah the Detroit rock band The High Strung. We've been together, gosh, I think since the year 2000 or something. We all, we ah me and my bandmates became, ah well, we've been best friends since we were like 11 years old and started a band, you know, in our early 20s or something. and And because we're all best friends, it's kind of like, why would you ever break up? What you know what what that what would breaking up even mean? Like, what does that mean? like so So we're like, instead every year or so we're like, hey, you guys wanna make another album? Yeah. so
00:02:59
Speaker
them. Oh, I live in Michigan. Just if you've seen the movie, eight mile, eight mile is the road that is the border of Detroit. I live around 13 miles. So I'm about five miles outside of Detroit. All right, cool. And you and Slim Shady just like stop by for drinks periodically, right? Flats the lion together. and and So let's start with the
The Formation of a Creative Partnership
00:03:25
Speaker
beginning here. ah This whole episode I'm tentatively calling Scary Friends Scaring Friends.
00:03:31
Speaker
How did you two meet? Please tell me that there's some sort of a like meet cute story behind y'all's friendship and you guys running into each other at a con and falling in love at first sight or something. Well, I know this and it's really weird because I knew Josh through his writing beforehand. And and it's it's quite a tragic story, but it's it's quite nice because it shows what a gentleman Josh is. But um my daughter was messing around ah in another room. And she fell off, she was trying to do a cartwheel on the sofa, and she fell off and hit her head on the ground and immediately lost her sight. um So she couldn't see anything. And then my other, my oldest daughter came in and was like, oh, Sophie's fallen down, but she she's not getting back up. So I was just like, ran in there, like checking on her, had to call an ambulance and everything, ambulance, and it was during COVID. So then like an ambulance turned up.
00:04:28
Speaker
took her away, but only one of us could go, so my wife went. And then to keep myself busy, and my eldest daughter from freaking out, I was just like, oh, you go and talk to, you know, the family, go and tell them, like, you know, what's going on. And then I just like, just put a post out on the internet, I was just like, look, my daughter's had an accident, send any good wishes, whatever. And then Josh reached out, and I hadn't had contact with him before. And he was just like, oh, you know, really feel for you. I'm here if you need anything. And then That's kind of where the friendship came from, I think. I don't know if that's right, Josh. but that's That was our first interaction. Whoa. that is wow That's wild. Yeah. but It's funny because I, I mean, you know, my gosh, Ross and I talk a lot and talk a lot about, we'll we'll have we'll meet up regularly for Zooms and
00:05:20
Speaker
We've gotten drunk together on Zoom, probably. And and ah yeah, that is where that started. Oh my gosh, yeah. Nice. For all the evils of social media, a glimmer of honesty. Daughters okay now? Yeah, the point was last day for like, ah and think I think it was something like six hours and then hang back it That's always a long time, man. That's like the story. I was at home thinking like, I need to look up like schools for the blind. I was like, I don't know what to do. I was like, I was freaking out. I was just like, I don't know. Like, how do you, how do you raise a child that could see and I can't see? And like, I was like spiraling. So it it was nice having someone like Josh reach out and be like, I'm here for you if you need anything. did it ah um But like loads of people, like it was very nice. Like lots of people were commenting like,
00:06:13
Speaker
such a bad situation, I'm praying for you, thinking of you, you know, if you need anything. But yeah. It was crazy. i can I think I can build out from there pretty easily because Ross and I, and this is true of like my friends here in Michigan too, we share a certain like, we're coming from, despite, you know, if he's, he as he says, he's writing about grief or if we're telling the scary stories or or if it's me with my band, we're coming from like a place of enthusiasm with this. We're coming from a place of, we're both prolific. We're coming from a place of constant updates, right? And so I have a friend named James Hall and
00:06:48
Speaker
And we would, you know, i every idea I send to James, and I also send to my manager, Ryan. And now this is the same relationship with Ross, where it became very quickly like, you know, I think Ross, you've written, what, 15 books now, 16? Yeah. Yeah, right, like 16 books. And I'm at 40. And my friend James is at 16. And my songwriting friend Jim has put out seven albums in the last year and a half. And so like, we're all like birds of a feather drawn, not just drawn towards each other for that, but actually like,
00:07:23
Speaker
talk to each other regularly, I'll send Ross like, it started to become like, hey, ah what do you think about a guy wakes up and and like his room is made, you know, he wakes up and everything in the room is milk, you know, I don't know, whatever, like every little like, but comes you know, a guy who has, he wakes up and then- That was a really good one, that one, that was a really good one. And it's just like, you keep like, and then he would send me an idea and this and that, ro Ross has a little more of a sharp shooter than I am, outlines everything, more deliberate, I think, and I'm more full pantser, like, you know, throw everything, let's see how it goes. But still, again, both that that spirit was recognizing each other like immediately, and eventually led to, hey, we're both starting a book at the same time,
00:08:10
Speaker
For me, that was the incidence for, I don't mean to jump ahead in ah in the timeline here too much, but.
Collaborative Writing Process
00:08:14
Speaker
This is good. um and And for Ross, it was, I died too. And it was like, well, I'm always looking for like different ways to, you know, I wrote a book freehand, I wrote one on a typewriter, I wrote one, um whatever, you know, in so many different ways. I've written books where it's 5,300 words a day, I've written where it's 500 words a day, like intentionally. And so I don't remember which one of us decided first, but we were like, hey, what if we send each other every 10,000 words? We're both starting on the same day. What if we send each other every 10,000 words? And just almost like serialize it for each other. That was really, that was the idea. Having no idea
00:08:54
Speaker
that both of these books would be fairly significant books and in our respective careers. And I'm not talking about the response to them. That has been wonderful. Like really, oh my God, wonderful. But i'm I'm just talking about even in and of ourselves as writers and artists, like they were both like, I can, they're both like these pivotal books for us. And we didn't know that. We're like, it could be anything. Hey man, like, you know, I'm sending you the 10,000 and the new one I'm working and he sends me 10. And you started to get this sense between us of like, it was like an incredible like volume tennis or something. Like you started to witness like, wow, he's, he still has his next 10 to have as much energy as this first hand. Well, mine better have as much energy as my first hand. And it started to feel like that, like the and an energy way and in a pacing way and in a enthusiasm way that we were like feeding off each other. It was also quite cool. Cause like when you, when like, so we sent the first 10 K to each other and then we'd both like,
00:09:53
Speaker
sit and read it but then like I'd be eagerly awaiting like these like little we used to have like little text conversations that were just like I'm starting it now I'm reading it and then it'd be like oh my goodness I can't believe you just did that like yeah and it was just like a constant light and it was just like oh yeah he's gonna get to that bit and then he gets to that bit and it's like I can't believe you did this and it's just like backwards and forwards like that it was it was it was amazing because it's the first time apart from reading Carpenters Farm it's the first time I've kind of like serialized like, kind of read something like that. And it was, yeah, exceptional. And also, like, then you had the buzz of, right, he's had my first thing, like, now I'm going to do the next 10. And it was kind of always seemed to work out, like, it didn't matter what was going on. like Because, you know, life gets in the way and stuff. But I'd always be like, right, by Friday, it seemed to work that every Friday, we'd have our 10k.
00:10:44
Speaker
So I'd be like, right, that's my kind of like, have my 10K ready for Friday, send it to Josh and he can run and I'd get it back. And it was like, within hours of sending my one, I'd get Josh's in and then it was kind of like, or he'd send his and I'd send mine. um But yeah, it was one of the most amazing kind of artistic creative things I think I've ever done. And I think having that accountability to kind of like, be like, well, he's going to do it. So I know I'm going to do it. I was scared shitless at first. I was like, oh no, I'm sending my rough drafts to Josh Malamond. I need to make sure it is. So I used to keep on sending Josh dr a message being like, oh, I'm just polishing this. And I'll get it to get you soon. I'm just polishing it. but like You know, how like my friend Jim and I were talking the other day about how like, the difference between like a bad mood or a good mood is like it so it's often like so much smaller than we think it is. Like if somebody says to you today, hey, you look good. Like that could last you a week. Like somebody just did one little compliment or one little thing. And one thing I've never experienced before, I guess you could say with carpenter's farm idea, but I've never experienced getting a reaction every 10,000 words and and we would be encouraging each other. And we were both aware of these are rough drafts, although I think
00:12:03
Speaker
Ross, did you do the Lansdale? Were you editing as you went? I can't remember. Yeah, I did the Lansdale, yeah. And so, was I doing that too or no? No, maybe I wasn't. No, you had lots of mistakes in yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and Which is goes back to that you're a little more of a sharpshooter. Yeah, I'm more like. And um yeah, so to get even one little nugget of encouragement ah after 10,000 words, like when does that happen? Usually you're just alone with it. And so when you sit down and you're already working on the next 10 and he likes that scene or something and you're like, oh, all right, all right, you like that scene. And then like you that would like, again, the margin between like, oh man, I suck and man, this is great, is very, very slim. And to have some hurry jo encouraging you every like segment was, I think that, I think we have to do it again. I mean, I think it changed something. I think it, you know, incidents to me felt like,
00:13:02
Speaker
I don't know how to explain this. It started, and I'm sure Ross, you felt the same way. It started to feel like this magical experience between us. This like, that we were like bouncing these stories back and forth and that they were both building up to something. And it almost felt like, well, because yours is building up, so is mine. And because mine is, so is yours. I mean, it really started to become symbiotic. I think as well, there was, sorry. There was a bit in, I think we've met before we started writing. I think we met online. and We were having a few drinks and many drinks. And ah and then I told Josh kind of he was like, um what's your book about before we decided to write together? And I was like, well, I think it's going to be this. And then he's like, I'll tell me more. So don I was telling him everything. And then I said, oh, there's like a kind of like a spoilery bit. And he was like, no, tell me, tell me. So I told him the spoiler, the big one. And then
00:13:59
Speaker
And then he got around to writing it. And Josh was like, I have no idea where this book's going. I was like, how do you not know? I told you. And he was like, I have no idea. um And then he just kept the whole group. Ross spoiled his book in that first time. We were, I was kablammering and I can still like see like the blurry screen and I can see um tell me. And I forgot what it was. I forgot what his big one side got to it. I remember it. But I forgot what it was. I was like, wait, yeah, he told me like a big ending that I can't remember right now. Like and so the whole time I'm like, where is this going? And he's like, dude, I told you where it's going. But I'm glad you forgot. but but Let me let me pause here for just a second, because i I want to keep going with this and like the whole um
00:14:49
Speaker
the the the benefits of a good writing group and a good writing partner and everything. um I want to give listeners a little bit more context here for these two books um and also kind of open the floor for us to talk a little bit more directly about them. So, Josh, your latest book is Incidents Around the House and Ross, I think this is still your latest book, right? ah is yeah I died too, but they haven't buried me yet. Okay.
Book Introductions and Praise
00:15:12
Speaker
Um, I am sure you two are both very tired of having to pitch your own books. So I want to flip the script here just a little bit. Josh, would you like to introduce readers to what I died to, but they haven't buried me yet is generally about, and then we'll go Ross. Um, introducing incidents a little bit. ye Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Ross pulled out something guy and I, I don't know, this is, this is difficult to talk about without. Hmm.
00:15:42
Speaker
Ross pulled out something very delicate, which is... the main character of his books, not nice. And and and not, I don't want to say he's not likable because in a fucked up way he is, but he's a bigoted guy. He's not a good guy. And to have that as your centerpiece, you know, somebody would be like, oh, that's a terrible idea, duh, duh, duh. But Ross handled it so well. Were you almost, I know um you just want the short version of this, but I feel like saying this right now. just get fuck You almost feel sorry for the guy, not because
00:16:14
Speaker
of any exterior thing that makes you feel sorry for him, but almost because like he's so bigoted that he's missing out on the like the beauties of of experience. You almost like end up feeling bad for this dude. you know And so anyway, that guy's daughter. I don't know how much to say right now. That guy's daughter left and he's, you know, he's sure that she's passed away and dad and da, da, da. And he's always going to this, is it Alcoholics Anonymous? Is that what the group is? A grief counseling group. Oh, grief counseling, right. Grief counseling. But a lot of his daughter. And in the grief counseling, he meets a sort of like a cultish, like,
00:16:57
Speaker
I guess you can almost say like swashbuckling in a weird way, like like ah like a punk dude who's got like a like like a lot of confidence, real cocky and and can match ah Henry for like, not not in the for the bigot-ness, but for can match in like, in in in snarl and energy and da da da. And um that relationship proves fruitful. I don't know what to say more than that right now. i mean The real? There's grief, there's an unfathomably amazing ending. um And it really is like a story of like a bigoted guy, like sort of coming to grips with like, you know, it wasn't very nice to his daughter that's gone now.
00:17:38
Speaker
All right, Ross, better up. How do you describe incidents around the house? I know, but beauty is so hard without spoilers, man. and There's so much more. I'm holding my face like a face. i know that was That was really hard, but i I hope that listeners understand. Also there, and just in Ross's book, there's like, There's energy, there's color, there's amazing, like the pros, the writing, you know it's not just the ideas in all the book is, there's the the writing of it too and it's ah it's amazing. Thank you very much. So, Incidents Around the House um is the first of many things for readers. Well, in my opinion, anyway, um firstly, it's terrifying.
00:18:24
Speaker
Secondly, it's from a unique point of view, because it's told from the POV of an eight-year-old called Bella. And I don't know how Josh did it, and it amazed me when I was reading it beforehand, because I've got kids. So but being in Bella's head was like being but my children talking and like what they found creepy and like how they talk and all this kind of stuff. So it's amazing. um And it centers around, yeah, so eight-year-old Bella, um ah mummy, dado, and grandma Ruth. um Love grandma Ruth. um andnna And it's just, I don't really want to give too much away. Basically, it opens up with one of the most scariest things I've ever read. have And
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah. And there's just this other other mummy is in this house, which is in kind of like Bella's is imaginary friend. Is it something else? We don't know, but also kind of the book is possession based as well in a weird kind of way. And it also is another first because it shows the possession from kind of the moments just before it could happen. um So you don't, it's not like, Yeah, it's not like The Exorcist. It was already there. Bang. It's this kind of slow, um insidious building of something that is truly terrifying. And that's like the loss of agency, um which scares me anyway. But yeah, and there's like, yeah, it's just a tone that runs all the way through the book. And I'm not a musician, so I don't really know. But there is like this underscore of deeply unsettling, um fantastic prose.
00:20:16
Speaker
And yeah, it's just incredible. And it i was I was amazed when I read it in these kind of like serialized things. But having read, because I've only got a proof at the moment, because the UK one isn't here. But like reading the proof, because I read the proof again, and I was just like, wow, this is dynamite. And all the praise to Josh, because I just see it everywhere. It's doing amazing. And yeah, it's a keystone, I think, to Josh's trajectory. Thank you. Thank you. It's not easy. It's not easy describing it. I don't want to talk about it, because I want people to read it. If you were at the bar with someone, I would be like, OK, this is crazy. You got to hear. And then I would probably spoil the whole thing for the guys sitting next to me.
00:21:04
Speaker
um Okay, so now that we've got a little bit of grounding of like what what these stories are, which, I mean, just side note, listeners, if you haven't read either one of these yet, they're both fucking phenomenal. um But, so we've we've got these basic premises and we're sending every 10,000 words back and forth through each other. ah Kind of going back into that process, do either of you remember a bit of feedback or a note that the other person sent you that helped change the way you approached something or evolved a scene in a way that you weren't expecting. I have an answer for this right away. um Ross was responding to like the sort of scattered descriptions of other mommy versus like a singular. It's not like Bird Box where you never see other mommy. You see other mommy a lot, but
00:21:56
Speaker
But um in fact, like the whole book, she's lurking. bit Or it's lurking. But anyway, Ross, early on, was pointing out, um you know oh, I like that. you know At this moment, she looks this way. At this moment, she looks this way. and that Those kind of things. Because I'm still feeling her out at that at that time in the first 10,000 words. So for Ross to have been responding right away to the actual scatter shot descriptions of her, I was like, oh, keep doing this. And I don't know that I would have done that without him having, like I said, that little pat on the back, hey, you look good today, right? Hey, these descriptions of ah their mommy, are these are freaky. And I'm like, oh shit, all right, we're on to something. So that was, that and that's a major one. that I mean, that's, we're talking about how much and when we see the the monster in the room, right? So that was a major thing in terms of feedback that like guided me that in his response.
00:22:54
Speaker
so So what was the original, and feel free to stop me if this isn't a road we want to go down, but what was the original concept for other mommy though? Like where did you envision her going differently? I think that at first the idea was like, well, maybe, maybe she's like this, maybe she's like this, maybe. And then, you know, I, this is a rough draft and we'll, we'll piece her together later, but what's going to work, you know? But it, and they were like scenes early on where like her eyes are on the side of her head and then her eyes are at the bottom of her head and and it wasn't,
00:23:25
Speaker
it And Ross's reaction kind of like said to me like, oh, it's okay. She can be both of those. and There could be a scene where her her eyes are on the side of her head and then they're on the bottom of her head. She could be hanging upside down in the closet. She could be ah eight feet tall. She could be a small thing slithering on its belly out of the closet. She could be whatever. She could morph throughout this book and a appear to Bella and appear to everyone in many different ways. And I think, ah yeah, Ross, took what I was writing as, I mean, he you know, ah he has no reason to think otherwise that that i'm I'm doing it that way. I just hadn't quite zeroed her down yet. And Ross's reaction made me keep her amorphous like that. Cool. Ross? There was a, ah because obviously Josh has said, yeah, my main character is an asshole. And i was I was really thinking of
00:24:23
Speaker
I didn't really want to, because ah ah I'm not talking much sense now, am I? like But I was like, I didn't really want to make him nice. Yeah, because I was like, there are people in the world that are exactly like this man, and they don't change. And I was just like, this is this is his story. And I'm not going to like change it because I need to make him likeable. I was like, I'm just going to write him as he is. And then there were a few times where I was like, Josh was reading, and he was like, you know I really hate Henry. like He's such a bastard. like i don't I don't understand why you do that. but then he'd like And then Josh would then follow up with, I can't help but like him somehow. but yeah i know yeah That's cool. And then that made me kind of be like, okay, well, I am going the right way. And then we do a bit more. And it's like, you know I think ah think how you did that scene works really well with us.
00:25:18
Speaker
continuing to not like him, but also championing him on a little bit. So of ah that kind of helped me be like, oh, actually, he doesn't. I don't have to make him likeable. He can just be who he is, which is this horrible man. And and then the reader is going to feel for him. It's almost like you feel for him like he's not smart enough or not open minded enough to like. Yeah. know how to react in the right way or something and ah your aim in this was not to like make a bigot look like to praise a bigot obviously that was totally nothing yeah um but you i think we had we had quite a few chats about like how old he was yeah and but i think that was quite key as well because i was like i kind of like had him at like
00:26:01
Speaker
50 ish. And then I was kind of like, okay, well, let's have a say. And then we had like, lots some ongoing talks about like, okay, so people I know that around about that age still hold these like, views that are a bit outdated. But like, if we made him a little bit older, he'd even have more of a reason to like, have these views and, um and be kind of like, determined in his ways to not change. Because why should he change for these young punks that are telling him that's wrong? Like, he's just he so wrapped with guilt and grief that it's like, There's gotta be something in there, something in there that's like salvageable or something, you know? I mean, you took, dude, you took, and and I don't wanna spoil anything. You took like modern, I mean, it's ah it's a that is a delicate thing to to, in today's landscape, to have the s set and the main character be like ah an asshole bigoted guy.
00:26:54
Speaker
I mean, that's that's that's a pretty brave fucking thing to do. i don't know that i don't know or I don't know that I would even think to do that, but you did and you didn't shy away from it. And that's that was bold because you know where you know where you're coming from and you know what you're trying to do with him. So if somebody had a problem, well, the protagonist is this big, like, yeah, yeah, i'm I'm fully aware. I wrote him that way. Yeah, that's the idea here, yeah. And that that was, I remember reading that, I was like, man, wow, shit, this is bold. I'm like, wow, he's fucking, okay, he's fucking on. That one bar fight scene, man, with a telephone and everything, that payphone section, that whole scene was like super intense, man. Yeah.
00:27:42
Speaker
But yeah, so that I think that really helped me nail the character, because I was like, OK, I've written in this way. And it was just like, yeah, he's going to stay that way. I'm not going to give him any kind of like redeeming features. He's not going to like you know volunteer at a young kid's school or whatever, just because he needs to do something nice. He's just horrible. um And yeah, and the fact that like, yeah, people have come ah like, I've had people reach out and be like, Oh, yeah, he's so horrible. But actually, there's something quite endearing about him, because you kind of want him to be bad, but you know, he's not going to he's like look at a car crash happening. And you're just like, Oh, just please just ask someone for help. but Nothing happens. So um but yeah,
00:28:27
Speaker
It was very interesting, but yeah, that was probably one of the biggest ones. Ross, you know what's interesting about both of our answers, and I hope i'm I'm not stealing any thunder from you, William, if you thought of this on your own. We both just said that we help each other with each other's monsters. no yeah That's very, very interesting. Yeah. ah So, Ross. Like, especially with all the discourse about like likable protagonists and everything else in like social media discourse and everything else. And then approaching this book in this way. I think the way I want to ask this is like, how did you decide that this was like where you wanted to plant your flag with this character? Like he is going to be an asshole and I know I'm going to get some one-star reviews because of it, but this is, this is the right thing for the story. I think it was just in a boldness in myself to know
00:29:17
Speaker
actually, this isn't me whatsoever, because it's a character. And just being like, yeah, it's going to get people that don't like it. But actually, this is for the betterment of the story. um You know, just because this character said something is not what is going on in my head. That is not who I am. I have created this character. um And I think it was just the story needed and where the story goes. there is no redemption for what happens. So why should there be any for him? And that was kind of like, I just wanted to, you know, one of my favorite films is like falling down. And like, he's like, it just goes from one place to the next place gradually, just losing his goal. um So I was just like, there is room for that. And I haven't seen it often, because you know, you normally have a bad character, who's the lead character, and then they have like some redeeming arc, and it's just like, okay,
00:30:16
Speaker
And I was just like, no, I just want him to be this horrible human being and just drag people through it. But but yeah, and I think yeah it's just a boldness and a freshness. And I was just like, And yeah, the book really pushed me as well as a writer in myself. So I was just like, let's just go for it. Let's just but do not wait around. ah This is one of the, and we've talked about this before, Ross, this is one of the absolute beauties of being prolific is that if you set out to write one
00:30:47
Speaker
you know You got one book in you or something. There's a sense, I think, that like the first time novelist. There's a sense of, this is my book. I need to express myself in full. well All of my views in this one book, right? And it can be overwhelming. Like the street name's gotta represent something. The characters have to, like everything's like, oh, this is me, you know? the minute you write a second book, that spotlight is a little bit dispersed. And now you're like, oh, well, well, I already said this in Bird Box, so I don't have to say that in Goblin, and or vice versa, whatever. And then, and then book three, now you're starting to be like, well, I mean, okay, well, hmm, by 15, 15, 16 books, you can write an entire book that features a character that you don't, doesn't represent you at all.
00:31:29
Speaker
that nothing, that and like no part of him is your worldview. And that's one of like the liberating things about being prolific is that you don't feel as ah pressured internally to represent yourself and all your views and your philosophy and everything in your characters. I think that's a very, very common first novel thing rather than taking one sliver of philosophy, a smaller idea, um you know a book about anxiety. Like one, like like like us that's a big a big concept, but just anxiety, not the gazillion different like things and family members and blah, blah, blah. So Ross, it makes sense that by what, that must have been book 13 or 14 or 12, something around. It's 13 at a time now. Yeah. So at about book 13, you're like, I can write a book now. And the main dude, he doesn't have to be like me at all. Yeah.
00:32:26
Speaker
yeah Every book doesn't have to be your inside out. um yeah buts Let's keep this train rolling
Easter Eggs and Personal Touches
00:32:34
Speaker
a little bit. So speaking of kind of putting yourselves in books, something fun in both of these stories is you both included, at least in name, the other person in your books. So Ross, you featured quote unquote, Josh, very prominently in I Die 2. And then Josh, you had Mr. Jeffrey as a a less spotlighted, but still like definitely there.
00:33:00
Speaker
Debish Lee handsome, I believe. Yeah, he was striking. He had an accent, too. I don't remember, like, Crystal? Were those just fun little Easter eggs for you guys to write? Or was that like me fun to kind of channel the person into there and like literally give them shit in a certain case? Yeah, like, I think, um yeah, it was just an Easter egg. ah But like some of Josh is in Josh, like his positivity, like, and Kind of like how he tries to be a good friend to someone who's an absolute tool. um But yeah, that was good. and there's lots There's lots of Easter eggs in yeah in them. Because my my book also links to, there was pocketbook as well. um And there's some other like little bits in there as well. But I love doing that as a writer anyway. like i I do it all the time. um Like I've just done, I don't know if Josh knows this, but I've just done the written a Western. and
00:34:00
Speaker
um And I've linked it, well, some places into it. So it's got like unburied carols mentioned in it, like the town and stuff like that. And then- Um, back in June here in Ragsville. Oh, yeah. Yeah. mr kauca Yeah. you did that oh and listen that And then like, uh, like it's also got like Brennan Lefaro's kind of like Western town in it as well. And like other things like that, just like mentions, but like, I just love, I love doing that. And I love seeing it in Stephen King's books. Um, so I was just like, yeah, why not just make a whole little universe of like little things and little references.
00:34:42
Speaker
um But yeah, yeah I picked Josh in it because we were in the writing schedule. And it's also a thing to look back on in years to come, like when my kids eventually get around to reading it, knowing that I wrote it alongside Josh and then being like, oh, there's Josh in it. Yeah, it's quite cool. and Check it out. Hey Bella, you remember when that teacher Mr. Jeffery gave you a bad grade for that book report you did? Yeah. That make you feel mad? Yeah. And then Dada later on says, that feeling you had when you got that bad grade and and it was silly and he was wrong and I agree with you then and I agree with you now.
00:35:16
Speaker
and Mr. Jeffery gave Bella a bad grade.
00:35:23
Speaker
Oh, that's good. How dare you? yeah As a brilliant young child. no but Mr. Jeffrey, also, ah there's moments where she's thinking of his advice or something he said. Yeah. And how handsome he was. I just can't come back to that. Okay, going a little bit farther down this rabbit hole then. So these two books have a lot of like strangely common themes that seem to pop up. um We had, and i'm I'm trying to say this without doing any spoilers here, and this is a tight rope to walk. um We have family systems in trouble.
00:36:02
Speaker
um i I think that's safe to say from chapter one in both of them. um We have commentaries about reincarnation and what that might or might not look like in both of these instances and the mythos and everything else, or to steal Bella's phrase, carnations. but they're approached in such different ways that they feel wholly dissimilar. So I was gonna ask y'all in the writing process, when you're working on your book and it it's got this this family that's having a hard time and it's got reincarnation commentaries and then you switch and you read the other person's work for 10,000 words um and the prose is totally different. it Josh's book is from an eight-year-old's perspective, whereas Ross's reads very literary.
00:36:47
Speaker
Was it hard to make that transition to not in it inject too much of what you were doing into what the other person was doing or were they just separate worlds for you guys?
Balancing Individual Voices
00:36:58
Speaker
I think um it's quite weird because like only now, we you know, me and Josh have spoken about this for ages, but like it's only now when like I hear Josh talking about like instance or like on here where you've come back with some kind of comparisons that I can see the comparisons. which is really weird as well, seeing as we both wrote two different books at the same time, not knowing what each other was writing about. And they both kind of center around possession. um ah But like at the time, Josh's didn't have reincarnation in it. That was a later change. That was um that you're right. That was in a rewrite. You're right. Yeah. So it kind of didn't have that aspect when I read it. It was more just this kind of like weird thing that was going on.
00:37:44
Speaker
um And then to the, in his rewrites, he developed that. So when I reread the kind of like, um proof copy that I got, it was really cool to see like, that just is only like a subtle change. But like, even just that little subtlety, again, elevated the novel more than it kind of already was. um a But yeah, no, it is very interesting, the kind of similarities, but I think they was just so distant, like each For me in particular, it was just, I was in my zone writing and then I just had the pleasure of reading somebody else's work, like every kind of look as a little break. Like I never read Josh's and was like, oh yeah, that's good. I'm gonna use that in mind. Like it was just kind of like a, like I was really, I imagine you were Josh as well, like focused on, this is kind of my trajectory. Get to the 10K, here you go Josh. Oh yeah, I'll read Josh's. Oh, this is really good. at ah
00:38:40
Speaker
And it was just kind of that it didn't kind of like push me off. And i I didn't really even see the similarities until kind of much later in the process. um But they're not really similar, but like the themes, there's some themes, as you mentioned. But yeah, that's kind of what I thought. I think it helps that their the narrative voice was so different between the two. and You know, like if I had been writing um Try to think. Spin a Black Yar in Ross with um Argyle. If I've been writing that story while reading yours, that might've felt like a lot lot closer or something to me or something. You know what I mean? Because typically,
00:39:20
Speaker
I don't know about you guys, but like typically when I'm writing a book, it's kind of hard to, and especially when you're rewriting, it's kind of hard to read someone else's book, not for fear of influence or anything silly like that. But just because you're inside words all day for like hours, you know, you don't necessarily, you're like, I just typed for three, four, five hours. And now I'm like, now I'm going to go read a book. No, no, no, no, no. Now I'm going to go like shoot baskets or i go to the bar or watch a movie or shoot pool or something, you know? And so I don't typically read another book while, I mean, I guess I do, but not really while I'm writing and or rewriting. And that definitely slows down my like reading for the year. For sure. I read probably like 36 a year, which to me it seems like a great number, but oh my God, online is that number small and
00:40:10
Speaker
So that was rare for me to do that. But because the voices were so different, it would be like, if I was making a um ah punk album, and he was making a world music album, and we're like sending each other, I mean, maybe there'd be some guitar tones that were similar or something, but such different worlds, that it was easy to read his when not writing mine. Do that. Okay.
Supporting Each Other's Creative Process
00:40:38
Speaker
um General advice for people that are like working with a writing partner, working with a critique partner, ah advice about how to be a benefit to the other person without stepping on toes or without like rubbing them the wrong way or anything like that. Was there anything in y'all's process that you were like, oh yeah, I really loved it when Josh did this, or I really loved it when Ross would send me notes along these lines. And you you already talked about this a little bit, Josh, with just like the,
00:41:08
Speaker
the, hey, you look good today, sorts of comments, but anything else that you would recommend ah to people that are reading each other's works and trying to send feedback back and forth? ah Well, yeah, I mean, number one, I think that to end up in a scenario like this, you're like, it's it's like me with the songwriter in my band and the other songwriter in the band. Like it's understood you both think each other are good. Like that's, that's base. That's that's like, you know, you're in a relationship with a woman. It's understood you like you love each other. So then anything on top of that, that's the basis of it. So in a situation like this, like we understand like mutual respect, that's, that's given. So then you could say anything on top of that.
00:41:45
Speaker
because that mutual respect is there. It's it's ah like, this book is great, you're a great writer. And so I can say to you, like, ah that felt like ah felt like a dead spot here or like a loose board here, or or you could say that to each other. But another thing, and not to harp on the, you look good today, but like, honestly, we both are aware these are rough drafts and we're both aware of how different a book goes from a rough draft to finish. Bird Box, was picked up by HarperCollins. And then after that, I rewrote it from scratch. The one that came out, like, so it's almost like the tree fell and they're like, which one did they buy, right? And so once you're fully aware, we both are, that a rough draft is likely to go through so many changes. What do I need most right now? I need to get through the rough draft right now.
00:42:35
Speaker
Cause so yeah, definitely Tally, like there was no fear or or holding things back or anything like that. I, I think maybe, maybe we pointed out to each other. If like a, if a pace was like lower lag or something like that, the loose board, like I was saying, but mostly it was like a sense of like. Yeah, you still got it. You still got it. Keep going. I will say this, though. Both these rough drafts were like I've written some real bad rough drafts and and both these rough drafts were really good. They really were. So we had that going for us, too, though. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think um because we are coming at it the same place, the way we approach writing and the rough draft as itself, um there's no need to just
00:43:23
Speaker
but big big each other up because we need to. It's like, you know, you are a great writer. um You know, yeah, like, I think honesty is great. Because there are times where you could just be like, I'm not too sure about this without thinking I'm going to hurt Josh's feelings because he thinks it's like, it's just that kind of like, yeah, I think this bit dipped here a little bit or, but also I think it's just having, because we're both, I would say quite creative, like,
00:43:54
Speaker
just those sparks of ideas and then being like being able to share them with each other, like just spill ah because we've done it on many other books that we've kind of been writing, we'll message each other and be like, Oh, yeah, what I was doing this about this, like Josh wrote after it. What was it? It tells for thee. Yeah. and there was some bits in there where kind of like Josh was oh yeah I was thinking about this and then like we had like a long conversation and it would just be like just general chitchat but I was like oh I've been thinking about your book and what about if you added this in and then it would just start like a snowball kind of oh yeah that's a good idea and then what happens if he does oh it could do that I think it's also just tape being able to accept kind of comments and yeah um yeah ideas as well ideas that aren't your own
00:44:37
Speaker
but like being able to share them with like, so I share an idea with Josh and be like, you know, use it, don't use it. It's completely up to you. I'm trying to remember which book was it. There was, I mean, you've done it a couple of times, but there was, maybe it was a tools for the, there was one recently where you were like, what about this? And I was like, oh shit. And like that became like a major part of the book. Which one was that? Was that a tools for the? Either a tools for the or the, um, the, um, the painting one. thank Well, yeah ah either way, in both cases, you gave ideas that I was like, just in like a Zoom talk where I'm like, oh, shit. and But there was one specifically, you remember i'm saying you remember the moment or something where you said something, I was like, okay, that's how it goes now, you know? Yeah, I think it was, it tells today. i think I think it was, I think you're right. And i I always look at it like this, like, let's say, you know,
00:45:28
Speaker
like mercifully or thankfully like a movie is made of your book right and someone will be like you know like do you like what they did with it or something to me so long as like the core the nugget the core of the story remains intact then any notes or any adaptation or any whatever outside of that is up for consideration so let's say bird box um in trying to shop bird box if someone were to say to me, hey, I love this book, but I think that the people should be able to see the creatures. I mean, that that's the whole story. Like, no, that's the one note I'm gonna say no to anything else. if If you were like, maybe there should be three kids in the robot. Maybe there should be less housemates. Maybe this should all happen in one day. Any other idea?
00:46:11
Speaker
is fair game as long as the core remains intact. And I think that there's, by doing that, what you get is you get both, um you said if if needs be, you satisfy your ego because the core, the idea that you're all excited about is still right there. This is your baby. This is your thought. And also makes you an unbelievable team player because anything outside of that, consider it. And so talking with Ross, that has happened many times. Like I guess said, we'll exchange ideas, da, da, da, da, da. And then so the idea is still there. I'm writing a, you know, a toast for the, a guy in this cell. Any idea that Ross has outside of there or what could happen in there, like, yeah, why not? Why wouldn't I consider that? I think maybe you have to have written a little or worked with other people to get to that point. I don't expect like a first time novelist to
00:47:04
Speaker
be that open, because it's kind of a sensitive place to be, you're writing, exposing yourself. But if you can eventually get to that place of, consider every single, doesn't mean you have to use every note, but consider every single note, consider every idea that someone else has, so long as your core idea remains intact. Yeah. I think I said it before to you, Josh, like I always go back to, I think it's it's in the Bible somewhere, but like iron sharpens iron. So like, you know, Josh is great. I'm great. Right. Let's see what we can kind of like put in the mix that's going to help each other's work and not be precious about it. Be like, oh, yeah, I should keep that idea to myself. You know, I know. I mean, that's a Josh or Josh would give me an idea. And then it's just, yeah, blending that together. And I think just having that, like for me, it's amazing, like just being able to be like, because I was writing a book called The Glass Womb and I was just like, I've written the first chapter of it. Well, I finished the book now, but
00:48:03
Speaker
I wrote the first chapter of it and I was like, is this going to be good? I don't know too sure. Let me just fire it over to Josh. And then I'll just send in my first chapter and be like, Josh, could you just read this? I just want to know if I'm on the right path or if this is just complete rubbish. And then like he'd read it and then come back and then like give me a bit of motivation or you know that momentum that we like Josh talks about. like And then I was just like, OK, this is the book. And then I'll just get on and write it. I think it's sometimes it's just that kind of like, and Josh has done it as well. I sent me a couple of pages of something and been like, what about this? Like frauds, like that's brilliant. yeah um But like, just sent me like a couple of chapters and been like, this is what I'm starting. What do you think? And just being open to that and like making time for each other as well. Cause I know that reading sounds quite difficult and long-winded, but like, you know, I'd read anything Josh sent me like a shopping list or whatever. um Yeah.
00:49:00
Speaker
So then a question kind of stemming from that, ah we've talked about y'all both being pretty prolific words, prolific writers and sending ideas back and forth. How do you decide that one of those ideas like has the mustard to to actually write the whole thing out? And that can be for your own book or that can be for the other person's book, like Josh sends you an idea and you're like, eh, maybe not this one. ah what what's your What's your own personal barometer for that? for deciding, yeah, let's, let's commit months and 70,000 words of my life to this concept. Well, I think for me, like, you know how there's that strong man thing at the fair where you like strike the hammer and it goes, for me, it's kind of like that. It's like the idea comes and the idea is the hammer going down and like, does it ding the bell? I mean, mean did and that sounds very abstract, but you can feel it, man. You're just like, oh, yeah, this one, this one can go. So I wrote a book.
00:49:57
Speaker
um called The Frauds of Phantasma. It was about 500 pages worth. I had worked on it for like two months, whatever it was. And I don't even know how many days later, like two weeks, not even, maybe even one week later, I had, on April 9th, I had an idea for a book. On April 10th, I started it and it was done in like a few weeks. So I had just wrote this giant thing that I had been wanting to write for three years. So then I had an idea and wrote it the next day and both of those books are done. So what what so but where's the um pattern in that? Where's the form in that there isn't? Yeah, I think you could just tell there's something about a book, where it's the idea, for me anyway, like the glass womb, I just had like this picture. And I was like, that's a really good idea. And then I just jotted it down. And then
00:50:51
Speaker
There's just something like and it's not even an idea like I've got loads of stories in my head like books that I want to write and stuff like that. And normally they like jumble around a little bit until something rises to the top. um But then something sometimes it just comes in and then it's just I need to write that book. I can't not write it. Yeah, it's weird. I'd never tell someone not to write a book by just just let me say and I was like, No, I wouldn't say don't write that book. I'd be like, you write it. And then I read it.
00:51:23
Speaker
um
00:51:26
Speaker
Right, that's another thing. Because the idea, I mean, God, how small are these ideas before they're written? Or how small can they be? Frauds is a big idea. I die too is a big ah bigger idea. But incidence is a tiny idea. The still life is a tiny idea. Or the painting one is a tiny idea. Like, so to to judge it on that, like, oh, I don't have enough yet. no man You might. a Like the glass womb and bird box were both started with like an image. Yeah. I like um ah harvesting the nightmare fields. I was just like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if a guy just woke up in a car, in a field and didn't know where he was or who he was? And I was like, I don't know. But then I just started writing it. And then this whole kind of mythos came out of it and kind of like. Yeah. Yeah. And that that's also tied into I died too. But I haven't buried me yet. And there was pocketbook just for anyone out there that it wants to venture into the Jeffrey verse.
00:52:21
Speaker
The Japanese has a good ring. I like that. Yeah, that's a good joke. Pat and Nick. Cool. Well, we are just about at time here. So before we do kind of closing remarks, do you guys have anything you want to ask each other on air? Let me just step back for a second and give you the floor. Yeah, I have one. um Ross, do you want to do it again in October? Yeah, boy.
00:52:46
Speaker
Yeah, I've already got my idea locked. Do you? Really? Yeah. I still need to do my like copious amounts of notes and like, act structures and all that, but I've got in there. I have no idea how what mine's gonna be, but if it's gonna be, if we're gonna do it in October, why not something, why not go for it, like go for it, you know? Why not like a Halloweeny autumn book? Why not? Why not? Why not? But yeah, well, hopefully we can try and do it in the whole month and then finish on Halloween. um um I finished one, it was a bird box. I finished, I started it on October 6th of that year and finished it on in the 31st, unplanned, just but and by like the 28th. I'm like, is this gonna end on Halloween? you know And then the 29th, you're like, is this gonna 30th? And then it did. And then we threw like this spontaneous Halloween party that night, because it was Halloween and the book was done and it, super memorable night. Like mom and,
00:53:43
Speaker
landlady and friends came over in fact two friends were at that party that independent of each other asked me about the other and they've been married like ever since. There we go. i I was gonna say because I can't remember if they're in your questions Will or not but um like I was looking at kind of The terrifying, the most terrifying things in Josh's book. There's two. Yes. And one of them is basically just the the opening paragraphs of Josh's book. Just chill your marrow to your bone. And I'm not going to say it because it's just there, but other mummy and like just when that first happens, it just killed me to the core when I first read it. And then every time I read it ever since it does the same.
00:54:38
Speaker
Um, but the, there is an, I can't even say the other thing cause like, it's going to give it away. I think I read the book a long time ago. When did we write it, Josh? Like two years ago, right? Two years ago. Yeah. but Since I read that thing and I remember messaging Josh and just saying like, this is to get one of the scariest things I read. There was a particular thing that happens in a bathroom. And, um, like I have not use the bathroom since without like, I walk into the bathroom and immediately it hits me in the head. Like, I'm just like, Oh, be careful Ross. But like like, it's just incredible. And then but there's so many other like, gorgeous kind of setups and like, just creepy stuff. There's like a scene that happens in the kind of playground as well, which creep me out and
00:55:34
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, for anyone that's reading that hasn't read it, ah listening that hasn't read it, like you just need to get this book, because honestly, it is probably the most terrifying book I have read. And that's not just me blowing smoke up just as Josh has asked, but like, literally, I'm sitting there looking at Stephen King's work. And I'm just like, no, there's not really many scares in that that match this. And it's just, yeah, there you go. And I think there was a scene and in, I died too, that Josh messaged me about, about the clothes. Oh yeah. Like that. And then that made me smile. Cause I was like, Oh yeah. that was That was brilliant man. That whole sequence was so brilliant.
00:56:19
Speaker
um Yeah. I would say to anyone listening, like why not pick up both books and it would be interesting to, to see um if they spot like similarities too. Again, we wrote them completely independent of each other, but but but pass the pass along piecemeal as we went, and that can't help but influence. And so it'd be itd be you know would be really interesting, Ross, as to, I might do this one day soon, is to for us to read
00:56:53
Speaker
the first like 10,000 of ah like, read the 10,000 of mine, then read 10,000 of yours, read 10,000. And then see if we start to see any sense of like building, like comparative like building or something. in there Interesting. yeah Yeah. I mean, but you know, what my, my ultimate thing is like, but for better or for worse, so is whatever momentum it takes to get the book done, the rough draft done, then we can worry about how good, I don't care how good or bad a rough draft is, never, I never have.
00:57:24
Speaker
but that does mean, you know, the the rewrites is gonna be pretty freaking intense if they're off to have some mess, but still, at least then we have something to rewrite. So for me, I've never had like a, what do you call it? Beta readers? Is that what you call it? When you have like ah like a, never had a writing group, never had a beta reader. I wrote for 20 years before I even like met other like horror minded people. I got a book deal when I was like 37 or something like that. And so for me, it's always been like, at all costs, we have to finish the book. And I think that that, like working with someone else behind the curtains, witnessing them behind the curtains, I felt like that was my ultimate goal here was to provide Ross with like momentum and to point out the awesome shit and what he's doing. And again, if there was a dead floorboard or this, sure, like, yeah, go for it. Tell him, or something's weird.
00:58:18
Speaker
But the general idea was like, give him as much fuel, I mean, he's gonna make it with with or without me, but give him as much fuel and momentum as like possible. And I think if we then were rewriting together, let's say let's say then we finish those rough drafts and he hands me his book to rewrite and I hand him mine to rewrite, there might be more extensive Have you thought of juggling these chapters? Have you thought of putting, I don't know, they're mighty bad at saying and stuff that we naturally would do anyway or or not, but.
00:58:50
Speaker
To me, it's the all important things that rough draft and getting it done. And to any like first, like a beginning writer out there, whatever acts as momentum, use it. And because once it's like the the age old, the simplest question in the world to me, would you rather have 300 pages of shitty writing that you can fix or no pages at all? Yeah. ye So that was my biggest thing the whole time with Ross too, was like, fuck, okay, let's keep going, this is it, all right, you got, okay, now it's your, this is great, that the thing you know. And it was very uplifting experience to say the least. Yeah, but there's also this really special gift that we send each other. um that would but Whenever we reach a milestone, there's this like little Mickey, no, what is it? Oh, Jerry, the mouse taking a bow.
00:59:44
Speaker
but oh wait yeah but as soon as As soon as I see that in my messages, I know that Josh has hit some milestone in this like you know back and forth. It's very good. There's a little peep behind the curtain. Cheers. Well, we are we are at time. ah So I'll bring us into the wrap ups now. ah You are both gentlemen and scholars. Thank you so much for ah doing this with me. um Can we talk and kind of leave listeners on ah next steps? So ah what's next for you guys? Josh, I know we're still like heavy in the middle of promoting incidents, but um anything else you want to kind of put a little flyer out there for?
01:00:30
Speaker
Yes, I wrote a nonfiction book that Ross has read. And by nonfiction, don't don't mistake that as me having done research, my God. um it's it's It's a night that Alison and I had about 12 years ago, this stuff. a profound night for me. um And I've been wanting to write that story for years, wrote it, and Delray picked it up. And I think that that, I believe that that is the next book of mine coming out as a nonfiction book around this time next year. I don't i don't think we've, I think we had, did we even announce that that was a deal yet? I don't even know if we have announced it. So I just said that to you for the first time. Cool. Hey, exclusive scoops, woo. Yeah. Ross, how about you?
01:01:12
Speaker
ah Yeah, I've got um Harvesting the Nightmare Fields coming out in September from Cemetery Gates Media. um I have um Metamorphosis coming out in January 2025, which you you edited, so you know that. um And then I have a Western, a few m few vials more. It was with the publisher, but I've taken the rights back. So currently I'm not sure where it's landing, but that is like, that is exceptional. um All of them are exceptional, but that one, like I've always loved Westerns and it's my love song to the West. It's a beast of a book and I just hope it lands somewhere. Like the initial praise I've had from it has been really good. um So yeah, that's that's kind of where I am. And then I've just finished writing The Glass Womb and I'll be kind of,
01:02:06
Speaker
um I might look to see if I can get an agent with that one, um but we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Yeah. ah Publishers listening. I don't know what, maybe. We got ah we got a horror Western for you though. um Reach out to Ross on and let's do this backwards. um Where can listeners find you guys? Where can we keep up with your comings and goings and learn more about these upcoming works, ah Ross and Josh? Um, uh, yeah, my website, um, to WordPress, but if you type in Ross Jeffrey writer, it'll come up. Um, I'm on Twitter, Ross Jeffrey. Um, yeah, just type Ross Jeffrey into the internet and it will just throw up loads of references to me. Um, but yeah, that's where I am.
01:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, mine's the regular, you know, it's just my name Josh Mallarmine. There's only one L in Mallarmine. I always say that because a lot of people put two for some reason. And then, yeah, you know, Facebook, Twitter, I want to get into tiktok because I shot a documentary recently and I'm, I don't know, it just seems like that's more akin to that than, than Twitter which is a dark place to me but the website um used to be boring but now it's not because there's a novel up there that's just been sitting there for free for a few years now called the Carpenter's Farm and there's no I love this there's no um number of views there's no reviews there's no like uh
01:03:35
Speaker
um What's the right word? and ah Stars or whatever. It's just a novel just sitting there to be read for free. It's longer than Bird Box. It's longer than Incidents Around the House. It's a real full novel that hasn't come out in any other way. And it's just been sitting there for, it is just sitting there for free to be read. So just so if a listener is like, huh, shit, I'll try that. So that's joshmallerman.com and that's Carpenter's Farm. Amazing. Well, thank you guys again both so much for sharing your afternoon, night, time zones are weird ah with me for listeners. Thanks for tuning in. Please don't forget to like, subscribe, or, you know, stare into the darkest part of your closet on your streaming service of choice. And we will see you again next time.
01:04:29
Speaker
Tired bells to everybody in the morgue. So if they had a thing then you somebody down there wasn't quite ready to go