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E2: Amy Congdon - Driving biofabrication and biomaterial innovation
98 Plays7 months ago
In this episode we dive deep into the world of biomaterials with Amy Congdon. Amy is a designer with that rare blend of scientific insight and deep creativity. She’s worked at the forefront of biofabrication for over 10 years, merging design with cutting-edge, material science. Her work has been shown globally, in books, publications, and at world-renowned venues like New York’s Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum and the Centre Pompidou in Paris. She is currently the Chief Design Officer at BIOFABRICATE, a truly pioneering organisation in the biomaterial space. As a unique blend of consultancy, design agency, educational platform and global network of startups, brands and investors, BIOFABRICATE drives biomaterial innovation at all levels, helping to bring us a new generation of materials, built with biology.
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Transcript
Introduction to Amy Congdon and Biofabrication
00:00:05
Speaker
In this episode we dive deep into the world of biomaterials with Amy Congdon. Amy Congdon is a designer with that rare blend of scientific insight and deep creativity. She's worked at the forefront of biofabrication for over 10 years, merging design with cutting-edge material science.
00:00:24
Speaker
Her work has been shown globally in books, publications, and at world-renowned venues like New York's Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian Design Museum and the Centre Pompadou in Paris. She is currently the Chief Design Officer at Biofabricate, a truly pioneering organization in the biomaterial space.
00:00:44
Speaker
as a unique blend of consultancy, the design agency, educational platform, and global network of startups, brands, and investors. Biofabricate drives biomaterial innovation at all levels, helping to bring us a new generation of materials built with biology.
Amy's Journey into Biofabrication
00:01:03
Speaker
This is Ecosystems, the podcast driven by the question, what's happening in this new era of sustainability? I'm Toby Carpenter, and I hope you enjoy the episode.
00:01:14
Speaker
Here's my conversation with Amy Condon. First of all, thanks for for joining me on on Ecosystems. And just to begin, I'm really interested to hear about your career journey and you know what attracted you to the fields that you work in. Yeah, well, um thanks so much for for having me. It's a real pleasure to to be here. But yeah, my Journey to sort of where I am now was definitely not something that I sort of planned in any way. I went to university ah university to study textiles. Thought I'd have like a really nice time, you know, have a studio somewhere, rather a delic view, I think, which is a lot of when a lot of students go into creatives, whatever creative course, um and then you realise everyone's probably working multiple jobs and it's quite a, you know, the reality might be somewhat somewhat different, but I can remember really vividly
00:01:59
Speaker
a very specific moment that sort of set me on the trajectory that I'm on now, which was it was for my first year of undergrad. And my tutor gave me a copy of the magazine, which is called Salvage. It's really, really traditional. Lovely, not necessarily known for being very cutting edge, you know, has of um but very much you focused on sort of textiles. and But it just so happened in that particular article ah that in that particular magazine, there was an article on medical textiles.
00:02:26
Speaker
And in that article there was a piece called The Beautiful Snowflake which was a completely digitally embroidered implant for somebody who needed reconstructive surgery in their shoulder and the reason that embroidery was used because was because you could mimic natural structures in the body. You can cut it and it doesn't sort fray if you use weave, it's sort of at right angles, it frays if you cut it, if you use knits it will it will unral if unravel if anyone's tried to, you know,
00:02:51
Speaker
had a hole in their favourite jumper and ah pulled at it, they'll they'll know, um and it also stretches. So I just became really interested by the idea that what I was studying and really traditional ear stitches we've been using for millennia, of running stitch, satin stitch, things like that, could be used to repair the body. So it became a bit of a research obsession and then I discovered a whole bunch of artists and then as time and on companies who were looking to work with biology to sort of grow materials. So I started becoming interested in in medicine and thinking, well, if you could grow sort of skin in the lab for burning victims, could you grow leather? And there were artists who were looking at that. So the best known and the sort of forerunners in that field were the Tissue Cultured Arts Project, which was Oren Katz and Nieuw Natsier.
00:03:34
Speaker
and they had created this thing called the the tiny, the victim's leather jacket, which was a tiny leather jacket that had they had grown. And it was in a show at MoMA. And I just became fascinated by the idea that we would be able to sort of grow materials for, for design. And that felt like it had to be a smart way to do things because you know, anyone I think who's gone into design realise that our decisions and and what we make or ah sort of yeah design have an impact yeah because of what they're made of and how they're made and how they're consumed. So that really sort of set off a trajectory of being
00:04:08
Speaker
fascinated by the field and by looking into sort of collaborating and working with biology in some way. Do you have any scientific background before you decided to go into that shift or did you learn the biology of these things from scratch? Yeah, no, I mean, I had biology up to GCSE and that was it. um I was the person in chemistry particularly that who would be breaking all the boiling tubes. I had a quite a knack of sort of fear not being the best at running experiments.
Education and Learning in Biofabrication
00:04:36
Speaker
um So I definitely didn't see myself going into science but my parents are scientists and I think they were like how on earth did she end up going into being like how did the creative thing happen but so yeah and I it was a bit of a sort of a journey getting there so I did my undergraduate then decided to do a master's because I knew I didn't want to work
00:04:56
Speaker
in a traditional design studio, but wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do. So I went and did a master's at St. Francis at Martins, which was at the time it's called Textile Futures. It's now called Material Futures, but really it was just looking at the future of materiality. So it was really, really interesting. And at that point I was looking at sort of more into the future. It was a time where design interactions at the ah RCA, there was a lot of sort of specage speculative design. People were looking using design to sort of paint future visions, but more and more I got interested in what was the reality and what could my skillset as a designer bring to working in the lab.
00:05:26
Speaker
So after my ah master's, I went and did a three month residency at Symbiotica, which was founded by Oran Katz and Yunazir, so from the Tissue Culture and Arts Project. And it's a sort of an artistic studio and department within a scientific department at the University of Western Australia. It was really a full runner and incredibly groundbreaking for its time. So you could go and work with a scientist there. So I went and learned how to tissue culture.
00:05:51
Speaker
which is essentially working with cells, so sort of things like skin cells or muscle cells and growing them in the lab. so it's a and area of science is looking which mostly concerned with that regenerative medicine. So looking to fix the body and in certain ways whether that's trying to grow everything from trying to grow blood vessels or or skin through to trying to you know ah organ replacements things like that but it's a really interesting field and of science and medicine. So I went there and and learned the basics of how to do it and I went thinking I was going to grow huge bits of leather and it was going to be really easy and then had a massive adjustment like a readjustment as to just how complicated it was. um And that then ended up being a sort of foundation for what ended up being a PhD. So I did a PhD which was in, was based at Central St Martin's in the Design and Living Systems Lab. um But it was done in collaboration with the Biomaterials and Biophotonics Biomaterials department, changed the name multiple times, at King's College London, based at Guy's Hospital, where I was doing all of my own lab work. So I knew at the time that there was
00:06:54
Speaker
really something there around bringing design in the creative a creative way of thinking into the science sort of lab. But at that point, there wasn't really a role that I could step into and and work. So I went and did the PhD as a way to sort of explore what can the role of a textile designer bring to a field like tissue engineering and then ended up doing all of my own lab work for the PhD, which was definitely a further learning curve.
00:07:17
Speaker
um In some ways, you know, it made things more difficult, but in others, I think anyone who's coming into a field and it's not their field, you have less preconceived ideas or you maybe you'll try things in a different way because you're not necessarily restricted by the way you've been taught for for a long time. So it was an interesting mix of having sometimes no idea what I was doing and sometimes doing things that were that yielded results unexpectedly. So as a lot of the learning, it sounds like it's been a lot in in the lab and a lot of it's been practice-based, which has allowed you to and grow and grow your your knowledge and expertise in the space. Has it been complemented with books and and resources like that, or has the primary driver been through practice?
00:07:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question. I think the primary relief for me, I definitely learned through doing and it was the that was very important to me. I think there's PhDs in the creative space are newer. um I think sort of in art and the more theory based, perhaps they've got more of a history. But for me, it was really important that the practice was where the the main new contribution to knowledge came from. But it was also very much supported by the theoretical and reading around it and looking at what others werere were doing. So there was lot a lot of things I was looking at was the theories around both working with living organisms, so sort of scientific literature, also the sort of philosophical and contextual around what it means to work with living ah living organisms and the impact of that
00:08:45
Speaker
through to sort of design theory and also craft and what it means to sort of make things because it's an interesting area where it can be crafts the difficult word it can mean everything from your grandma's doily through to something that's incredibly you know just is incredible so it's a difficult word that people a lot of people sort shy away from but I was particularly interested in I think in in many aspects there's the hand or working very practically with something often can get subsumed or sort of hidden behind so how it's it's written about but actually for tissue engineering it's very much like a hands-on process. You're in the lab working with tools and and different techniques and like the better you are at it
00:09:27
Speaker
the better result you'll get. So that was quite an interesting thing for me is the sort of tacit knowledge of working with your hands and and what that meant for in an area like science. I think a lot of the time it's presented very linearly. Like we wanted to find out whether this, find out this. So we did this and this and it was either true or false or somewhere in between, but it's actually much more nuanced. It's much more experimental in the true sort of sense of really, it's not necessarily always one after the other. It can be quite creative in the way that it, um,
00:09:57
Speaker
explores things but it's often quite sanitised when it's written up, I think.
Roles and Responsibilities at Biofabricate
00:10:00
Speaker
I'd love to to know how you'd answer the question, what do you do? So what what is your day-to-day like currently involved? Yeah, that's the one that often I give different answers to depending on the situation. Sometimes people know what you do and I tell the easiest answer is a textile designer um and then to put, oh like you make cushions um Sometimes it's easier to just go, yeah. But um really, I mean, my the way I tend to describe it now is work in the field of sustainable materials and working with innovators who are trying to develop solutions for all areas of the consumer sort of market, whether that's fashion textiles, um luxury, automotive, sport, interior, beauty, personal care, but really our particular interest at the the company that I work for is bio-innovation, so looking to biology for solutions for us for our material world. So our vision is our material world built with biology. And my official title there is Chief Design Officer, but that can mean we think about design really broadly in that sense. It's probably less of a classical example of a Chief Design Officer, but we're particularly interested in how design and creativity intersects with science to bring solutions to market.
00:11:17
Speaker
And not on a day-to-day basis. So for example, say in the last, last week or or two, what was that involved on a day-to-day basis? I mean, as for many people, a lot of sitting behind my laptop, I think it always seems much more futuristic. I've had people want to come and photograph me in a lab before and imagining something that's kind of like quite minority report, you know, think people flight flying, flying fast and all the boards. Actually, most labs you work in are kind of like the school science lab, maybe a little bit.
00:11:45
Speaker
with a bit more equipment and some sort of different, yeah, maybe a bit more exciting, but not much, but realistically, I mean, to bifabricate the company where I work, it is, we don't develop innovations ourselves. All of the team have worked with science and in the lab and have had very hands-on experience working on developing materials, but actually our role now is we see, ah try to see ourselves kind of Switzerland in the space. So we work with the startups who are trying to develop these innovations, the brands that are trying to educate themselves, a lot of what we do can be educational. Getting them to understand what this new sort of class of materials is, where where it's at, you know, where it's still got to what still needs to happen to get to to scale um and how they can look to maybe integrate those innovations into their
00:12:37
Speaker
supply chain and their products and also annan also investors who are interested in the field and and where where it's at and where they can play a role. um And the most public facing thing that we do there is we have a summit that we do annually, which brings all of those people together. But we also work um on different specific projects for clients in that way that you know nothing I can talk about, which always sounds like is always a boring answer. Like I, if I told you I'd have to have to kill you, but yeah, sort of working on um specific projects with clients. And then also we do say a lot of educational work. So we developed a big learning platform for brands specifically, but people looking at what, you know, to educate people around this, this area of material. So particularly biomaterials and biofabricated materials. So working with biology to make things. So a lot of it is, it does tend to be li desk space, but it's quite a,
00:13:32
Speaker
a varied mix of projects that we end up working on. To someone that's never heard of, you know, biomaterials or biofabrication, how would you describe what these terms mean?
00:13:43
Speaker
Biomaterial is a word that I think people maybe are most likely to have heard, but it's really broad. And it originally, like the the origins of the word actually came out of medical. So if you Google it, you get a very interesting answer that's usually based on the sort of medical definition of what a biomaterial is. But it's being used more and more by people to describe a material that is in some way has a relationship to biology, so you could call, but but there's no real official definition.
Exploring Biofabrication and Synthetic Biology
00:14:13
Speaker
um If anyone wants to get really geeky about it, we wrote a report um with Fashion for Good a few years ago around, and it includes things like the different terminology in the field. It's ah it's quite a long ah long read, so it's definitely one to take in chunks, but if anyone wants to really geek out on it, it's a good resource to sort um sort of understand more around
00:14:32
Speaker
yeah things like the history of those different terms but really it can mean anything you know a cotton could be a biomaterial because it's grown by a plant particularly what we're interested in is biofabricated materials which is we would define as materials or ingredients chemicals things that dyes that are grown using a living organism so rather than having to grow a whole plant you can use something like a microbe to make you just what you need so an example of that is there's a company in Japan but called Spiber who are basically fermenting spider silk or soap a spider silk like protein. So very much in the same way that you like brew beer and we have done for a very long time where you would brew beer and the output is that those sort organisms that you're working with would produce you alcohol. You can actually engineer something like a bacteria or a yeast. You can put the bit of DNA code that tells it how to make
00:15:29
Speaker
the silk protein and then you in a big fermentation vat like you would ferment microbes for beer but instead of producing alcohol they're going to produce you a protein and then you can take that protein turn it into and then eventually turn it into a fiber so they're looking at it for the predominantly at the moment for looking at turning into different sort of textiles but it has border applications like beauty and personal care as well So it's a really interesting area where you are working with biology to make you so an ingredient, a material, and it's right across the board. The predominantly people are looking at applications and things like but fashion and textiles as the first area, but it really does anything you can look at around you could potentially be made using biology or an organism of some kind. Another really good example that people might have heard of is it's had quite a lot of prices. Mycelium, like ah leather,
00:16:22
Speaker
sort of quote in sort of leather in quote marks. um Yeah, as a leather alternative. And well, that's where actually the mycelium, which is the root like structure mushroom, I know you had Maurizio who is such an important figure in the space, and he's been working on it for a really long time. So he's definitely I would recommend going listening to that episode.
00:16:41
Speaker
I actually I actually spoke to him last week. Actually, he's going to be on this series as well. That's brilliant. Yeah. Like like me, it also comes from a design background. It's interesting seeing a lot of companies that are being founded by designers. But yes, he's he's definitely the that's definitely one to listen to and ah great that you can have on this this series as well around yeah using because that is essentially where the organism is making you the entirety of the material. You can get it to grow you a sheet material and which is which is incredible.
00:17:12
Speaker
um for some people that the organism might be making them part of something that you then have to further work with to make you something else. But some it's it's a really fascinating area and people are yeah developing solutions for all kinds of ah materials and products.
00:17:28
Speaker
And how high-tech are the are these things? or Or does it depend? Because without a science background on the surface, these seem like really, really, really innovative and high-tech. And to to me, that it seems like they must require such ingenuity and and certain you know machinery. But is that is that the case, or is that am I just projecting? There's definitely a range of different approaches in this space. I'd say none of them are ah you know particularly low-tech, um but some do you represent particularly deep and technical science. So an example of that is synthetic biology, where you are taking a portion of DNA code. You're then working to insert that into an organism like a bacteria or a yeast. And that code is the instructions for how that organism will make you
00:18:17
Speaker
what you want it to make. So a couple of examples, you might be looking to engineer an organism that will make you a spider silk like protein or a protein like collagen. You then have the challenge of scaling up a fermentation of that particular organism so that you can do it reproducibly at scale and get it to produce you enough of the thing that you want it to produce.
00:18:40
Speaker
you can you then need to purify what it's making ah and transform that ultimately into your end product. im When I say but a product for a startup is something like a fibre or a yarn or a leather alternative which then goes on to be made into a final end consumer product. So for example, ah you know, it could be a if it's a yarn a jumper or and if it's a leather alternative perhaps a handbag or all similar so that's one approach which does represent you know there's a lot of technical scientific work that's going into that um but if you're essentially thinking about okay the
00:19:21
Speaker
we want to create our product out of a particular building block. So for example, okay we want to make it out of a collagen protein. Collagen is some the most abundant proteins that's found in skin and and leather but if you want to to use that as your starting point are there different ways that you might go about obtaining that collagen rather than engineering an organism to make it for you? A great example of of a different way of approaching that is a UK-based startup called PACT and they are sourcing sustainable waste collagen. So they are finding that and then they are transforming that using ma material science and green chemistry into a leather alternative. So a very innovative approach, just different to a company that are working with perhaps synthetic biology to make that protein.
00:20:10
Speaker
um but this approach of finding different streams of waste biomass we're seeing increasingly startups that are doing that and that's great to see um because there's so many different waste streams that can be transformed into into new materials and products so yeah lots of different innovative approaches across the board um all trying to approach the problem of how do you you create new biomaterials for the consumer market. and are Are there any biomaterials that you're you know you enjoy working with the most or you're most interested in and exploring?
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for me, the area that I looked at, which was tissue engineering, is where actually the most complicated and the the furthest out in terms of bearing fruit for a material because it there's a lot of discovery that needs to happen there to make it successful. It's also very expensive, very time consuming. I mean, it always have a special place in my heart because it's, I find it fascinating because it's working with the actual, you know, the cells from real skin cells.
00:21:16
Speaker
looking to you know how can you turn those into something like a leather alternative but um so there are companies that are looking at that but it's definitely a very steep that's a ah very complex scientific problem and also a problem around how do you scale it it's it's much easier to do something in a lab where you can you're trying to make a small something um once you try and try and get to the scale of even matching somewhere close to a hide, an animal hide, that's a whole other technical challenge, um even if you can get the science to work in the first part of just make it starting to make a material or a smaller prototype. So I enjoy working in that field, but I think it's got ah the long probably the longest way to go. And then
00:21:55
Speaker
But there's some that I'm just particularly interested in because I think they've they've got real promise. So there's a company that are called Lanza Tech who ah have an organism that will feed on carbon emissions or sort of waste greenhouse gases. um And it's so because every living thing needs food, you know, some sort of nutrition, and then predominantly when you're working with a micron there, some sort of sugar source, but for them that organism can feed so they have a plant where they've situated their facility next to a steel mill, and they're taking the emissions from the steam steel mill and feeding that into as the nutrition source for the organism, which is incredible because it means that you are taking ah will something that's really problematic
00:22:38
Speaker
and using that to feed another process.
Sustainability and Innovation in Biomaterials
00:22:41
Speaker
So that's where it gets really interesting. We can think about really circular systems where you're trying to use all resources as efficiently as possible. And actually that organism, um their first organism that they worked with, they found in rabbit droppings, it was a naturally occurring organism that could feed on these sort of waste gases, which is incredible. There's already um lots of microorganisms which will produce dye that naturally occur in places like soil. So there's also another company that we're looking to grow the equivalent of cement, and that is again another naturally occurring organism. So there's a lot that nature already knows how to do. It's always just like discovering it. And then some people are taking that and trying to develop it further. And then of course, looking to synthetic biology to further develop capabilities. But that's where it gets really interesting for me.
00:23:31
Speaker
It really is like alchemy. It's like a form of magic yeah when I think about this field. Yeah, absolutely. And and what what ah so like what are some materials that are like really widespread? So leather gets mentioned a lot and there's lots of alternatives to leather. Are there any other materials that are really widespread today that you think maybe we can replace through biofabrication or even on the verge of being replaced or phased out?
00:23:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think the other area where it's there's the most solutions that are being developed come to market isn't fibers. So for sort of again, fashion and textiles, but things where it could be a fiber that you could turn into a yarn that could then knit or woven. And there's a lot of different and people looking at solutions there.
00:24:18
Speaker
There's people looking at solutions around colour, so how can you dye textiles and and things like that. Another area that's particularly, that's really starting to expand and it's very interesting is sort is the beauty and personal care because there's actually a lot that goes into stuff that we put on off yeah know on our faces, we wash our hair with, that actually have a lot of either petrochemical based um have you plastics in there like microbeads things like that or that they're what they have in them is difficult to source or ethically problematic to source so um which there's a good example of that which has already been used very broadly which is squalene which originally came from sharks
00:25:00
Speaker
which is now being you can produce using sort of fermentation technology. so um So that's one thing where you can take use biology to produce you something that is much better than collecting it any other way. um It also has opportunity to go beyond what we can actually get at the moment so there is a company called Arcea in Boston that launched a director's consumer perfume or sort of beauty brand and they launched with perfumes and it was six perfumes that were based on extinct flowers so they went to there's a flower archive in Harvard University they took a very small sample of six different flowers and synthesized its DNA and then found the scent, the bits that coded for scent and then used synthetic biology to put that into an organism, produce those scent molecules and they have created a perfume line. So that's where it gets even more magical when you think about what that unlocks something that we would never have had the opportunity to experience. So that's where it goes and that's where we're particularly interested. I think there's a lot of talk around
00:26:09
Speaker
mimic and replacement, which I think is definitely a part of it. um And of course, I think as humans, we always want to know what, what's it like or what can I compare it to? But we're particularly interested in like, when does it go beyond that and becomes its own thing?
00:26:25
Speaker
and where what are its unique aesthetics, performance, like its characteristics of of any of these materials, where it goes beyond just trying to copy, and because that's where it's probably its least interesting form. There's a lot of people are taking like a mycelium material colouring it black, stamping it or embossing it with a calf grain to make it look like an animal leather, which is a bit like sort of us with buying a plant-based steak in the in the supermarket. there's a There's a role for that, but it's also probably the least interesting thing you could do with it.
00:27:00
Speaker
So the applications in in skincare and and also with the the fashion and textile industry, is it is it the innovators from the bottom up driving that interest in those fields and coming up with the solutions? Or is it more the interest in big companies in the space that are interested in coming up with alternative and more sustainable methods that are maybe asking innovators or approaching them? Where is it coming from? Is it to a two-way thing or is it more from one side or the other?
00:27:29
Speaker
it's It's somewhat of a two-way thing, I'd say. It's it's um a bit of a mix. There was quite a lot of these companies that started in this space which were, that came out of maybe scientific labs, you know, they were doing work and it spun out into being a company. um I think it was also coming to a time where fashion was starting, when this field really started to measure like the, you know, kind of maybe 2015, 2014, like early 2010s is when it's really started to emerge, I would say. And but fashion was starting to wake up particularly to its environmental impacts. They were starting to look around for solutions. So I think there was a lot of interest, like if you can make it, we'd be really interested in in using it. So there was definitely some pull from the market. um And then you also, I'll say on the one side of having, you know,
00:28:20
Speaker
scientific founders who will be working on like maybe they got, you know, their PhD or postdoctoral work and we're like, okay, that feels like there's a ah company here. And a lot of that was coupled with the technology was becoming cheap enough to make it viable for consumer applications, because previously a lot of particularly genetic engineering side of things was the preserve of of medicine and pharmaceutical because it's just cost didn't work out for a consumer applications where you look at actually what we pay for materials today for the most but for the but vast majority it's not much at all so to be able to compete in that field you have to make sure that everything that goes in is
00:28:57
Speaker
can ah you can complete or at least know that you can compete once you get to scale. um And then the other side of it was there were a lot of a lot of the companies were founded by designers who were who knew and had worked in the sort of consumer field and like we need solutions and I feel like having you know as a designer I feel because I've worked in that space I know what product what's needed for products and I think I want to jump to the other side of the table and and start a company to try and make some of those materials that can go into products. So it's an interesting space where you have
00:29:31
Speaker
different founders and different stories from where they've come from. So it is, as always, a bit of a push and pull. I think when it's too much one sided in any sense, it doesn't necessarily work if you just have technology push. Well, like we've made this thing just, and I've seen that before, we've made this thing just go out and try and sell it. Well, if it doesn't actually she take into account the needs of a material for the consumer market, it's probably not going to do very well. And vice versa, if you just are going like, we need this thing, and you're just trying to make something that there isn't a solid um scientific foundation there, it's not going to be successful. So it is really a combination, I think, in this space. And how in in this space, how do you measure? So a lot of these um materials are being innovated because they they might be more sustainable or eco friendly. How do you measure
00:30:17
Speaker
the the benefits, the environmental benefits of these materials. It's definitely a ah journey that innovators go through. There is, of course, one of the good things about when you you know you're if you're starting from scratch is you can start to measure impact.
00:30:34
Speaker
really from the beginning and set out what are the sort of areas where you think you're going to have most, make most savings. I think very rarely does a material come along or an innovation come along and then it's a so silver bullet and fixes everything. But you that's what most innovators start to look at, just okay tracking as far as they can. And then you know, the the ultimate goal is to get um like is to get to some sort of life cycle assessment or an LCA. um But those are quite difficult to do, um or very almost impossible to do when you're an early stage startup, because your process is probably still changing. you're um you're You're literally changing the inputs, the different techniques that you use. So all of the things where you have to, with an LCA obviously, look at your, what's going, the inputs, the
00:31:25
Speaker
you know, the machinery you're using, the energy, like it should done properly, encompass everything that goes into um making materials. So if that's still in flux, you can't do one of those properly. They're also very expensive to do. Not that that is something that would stop anyone from doing one, but it's not worth spending that money to get an official short ah SEO until everything is sort of locked in place. Okay, this is our, these are our ingredients. This is our process. And ideally, this is the type of facility that we're going to use because actually,
00:31:54
Speaker
impact changes depending on how bigger facility that you have. So actually the bigger and more scaled your production facility, usually the more um the that you reduce the impact because there's efficiencies of scale that happen. So for a lot of innovators, they're looking, they're balancing tracking things as they go along, and then trying to find the right time to do that more, you know, that official LCA. um But of course, there's a lot of pressure from the industry to do it, because they want to like, we want data, of course, that's coupled with all of the legislation that's coming through the EU, which is great. And and
00:32:29
Speaker
to so push people to back up claims. But it's um it's just it's quite a complex and nuanced problem that people come again come up against. It's like how to do it, when's the right time to do it, and the right way to do it. And then you have the flip side of that where a lot of the LCAs that we have from the established materials are not without their issues.
Challenges in Standardizing Biomaterials
00:32:51
Speaker
um It's like you can't take one LCA for leather, for example. It's very dependent on wherey and um what you know where the animal was raised, in what way. Things like polyester also is often held up on paper, has very low impact, but actually how you know where do you what do you look at? There's a lot of people arguing that there's a lot of impact
00:33:16
Speaker
beyond it's just being made. So like you just look at sort of cradle to gate and that gate is where like the material is made and then it goes off somewhere else. So I think the there's still so much work to be done in the industry side of things to make sure that we're comparing apples to apples. Because you can say, well, you know, better compared to what and you've got to make sure that what you're comparing it to its data is robust.
00:33:41
Speaker
and actually fit for purpose. So I felt like it's a whole rabbit hole to go down, but it's definitely something that innovators are always thinking about, um but it's a tricky one to be able to say, especially when they're early stage, we're X percent better when you're still, you believe, you could say, maybe give a range or say, we believe, you know, this is what we believe, but there's a lot of things that come into play, my measuring measuring impact.
00:34:07
Speaker
and And I guess as well, if um there's some designers or innovators working with living organisms and materials can be quite hard to standardize products made from it. So does that have implications as well into making a life cycle assessment?
00:34:22
Speaker
It can do to a certain extent. Probably the part a big part of their process is to try and standardise as much as possible what the process that they're going through. But obviously of course, because it's a living organism, I think you're going to have some variations there.
00:34:38
Speaker
you know Also, a lot of talk around when you're doing fermentations, like how much of the thing you want it to produce is it making? And you will have a you know margin there where it like you might have a successful fermentation or it might not have gone so well. And so there are certain things where it is more, there is more more nuance there and and more complexity, because it's not something that you can fully standardize. I think that's something that people are coming to realize, particularly thinking synthetic biology when that first was being talked about. It was being referred to as um in quite mechanical or sort of computer. it's like How can you like sort of almost treat biology as a sort of programmable thing? And they and that's a difficult analogy because it's much more complicated than that. um And life is very good at adapting and finding ways around things and and changing.
00:35:37
Speaker
Um, so a lot of what people are doing is trying to, as much as possible, make something repeatable and standardized, but also bearing in mind that it is, you know, you're working with a different set of, of inputs, which does have, which is, you know, which are living and therefore you need to sort of take that into consideration as you build your process.
00:35:58
Speaker
And so you you you mentioned previously, so you you did a PhD in tissue engineered textiles. So i was yeah I was interested to hear a bit more about this your and how how it informs the work you do today. Yeah, the PhD was I was really, really wanting to make sure that I could find a sort of ah lab that I could work with. I was very lucky. um I think definitely doing the the the residency as in both to help because I could go in and sort of speak for sale. I know roughly what I'm doing. i'm i'm I'm not maybe not so much of a liability that hope I shouldn't up upset the apple cut in terms of i of no I'm not going to
00:36:35
Speaker
cause any problems at other people's experiments, because that can definitely happen. If you don't know what you're doing, you can also not only sort of mess up your own experiment, but maybe put leading to an infection in somebody else's. So you know, they're always a little bit nervous, letting somebody in who's not had any training. So that definitely helped. But I was really fortunate to find a The professor who let was the lead at the department that I worked with at Guy's Hospital at King's um was, ah her name was Professor Lucy De Silvio, and her father used to be a bespoke tailor on Southall Road. So she had a really, an interest in sort of my
00:37:13
Speaker
field and the creative industries and I was able to sort of show her the work I've been doing as in Biotica and what I've been doing there was I'd taken different digitally embroidered scaffolds that I'd made so that became a bit of a research session. When I was at on my undergraduate I sort of specialised myself in embroidery both hand embroidery really traditional techniques but also digital embroidery.
00:37:36
Speaker
So I had gone there and taken quite big bits of textile that I'd made and thought I was going to grow cells on that, attach the cells to it. That would form as a sort of yeah structure. And then I'd end up with these sort pieces of leather. And then I realized that cells much prefer flat, stable surfaces, which is the bottom of a peachy dish. And actually, once you get to the scale of a cell, um even a 2D textile is actually very three dimensional when you're looking at that scale. But all of that prior learning helped um her get a sense of what I really wanted to do. And then the PhD ended up being, I was looking at, I realised that a lot of tissue engineering is very top down.
Design Meets Science in Biofabrication
00:38:16
Speaker
So it's okay, we need to fix this part of the body. So whether it's a, you know, it's a piece of bone or it's a tendon or something like that. So how do we, we're starting with that, how do we work our way to make, you know, look into the literature and find materials that will support that type of cell growth?
00:38:32
Speaker
I took the approach of taking a step back and going, I'm going to just trial a whole bunch of different materials that don't necessarily have to be biologically compatible in terms of the human body, because that's maybe not what I'm looking for. So I did a whole material library where I was looking at what materials would support cell growth and what but wouldn't.
00:38:51
Speaker
And then I took that as a very bottom-up approach once I understood what they'd attached to and scale, which was really important. I think when I walked in, I was like, how big's the cell? I mean, I didn't know from, you know, from school, I was like, how big's the skin cell? And like, can I see it with the naked eye compared to a like textile fibre? What's that like?
00:39:11
Speaker
um So having all of that, sort building that foundational knowledge, I then started making handcrafted scaffolds to control and orient cell growth around them. So I was looking to control the way cells attached and the way they the orientation that they would grow around that textile as of yeah as a scaffold and as a structure for them to attach to.
00:39:32
Speaker
And because I knew what they would and wouldn't attach to, I could also control, I could have certain areas of scaffold where I designed it where I didn't want cells to attach. So I brought in things like, it was almost like a textile resist, which is like a dyeing technique where you put something on a certain part of a material to stop the dye attaching. So I was using textile thinking to control and to develop these scaffolds. And then when something it was, it really allowed me to be iterative because I was the one that was making things.
00:39:59
Speaker
OK, that didn't work. So I'd go away and make a whole new so batch of and um scaffolds. And I also ended up making scaffolds for different researchers in the lab. So somebody who's looking at neurons and trying to regenerate neurons.
00:40:11
Speaker
somebody else who was actually looking at tissue, um tissue cultured meat. So I was making some sort of scaffolds for her. So it became really interesting kind of collaboration between different members of the lab. But really what I took from that um was bringing a design methodology into the laboratory and learning how to design and run an experiment. I think from Design perspective, we don't always talk about methodology or how we do what we do. It's almost like this little black box that we like to keep somewhat mysterious. like There's there sometimes a bit of a way that we don't want to expose our process, but it can be very
00:40:51
Speaker
because it can be, ah particularly in textiles, you'll be changing lots of different things all at one go. You're not, you're sort of going by gut and by feel and what looks interesting, which really doesn't work in a scientific laboratory because you need to change one variable at a time.
00:41:07
Speaker
to know if that variable had an effect on your like the output of your experiment. If you change 10 things at once, you'd have no idea what thing what was the thing that you changed that had that effect. So it taught a new a different kind of discipline.
00:41:24
Speaker
to me where I had to break down all of the things I wanted to try and try them one at a time which when I first started doing it felt very restrictive but actually as I got more used to it it's actually it's a really interesting way of working there's a rigor to it which allows you to move through things and ideas in a way that really yields results so it was it was a fascinating process to sort of merge like a design approach to this sort of scientific way of developing experiments and that was really the main thing that I took out of my time which was understanding that combination of bringing design and understanding of materiality of like what do we want to achieve ultimately
00:42:07
Speaker
And then how do we get there and how can we use experiments and the design of experiments to trial out the things that might affect that and try and get to that solution as quickly as possible. So it was this the it was the approach and the methodology more than specifically tissue engineering. So i after having done the PhD, I went and joined um a start-up in the field called Modern Meadow who were looking at the original goal of was ah the company was to produce leather and meat alternatives without the animal. They since um have sort of spun out the meat side but the time was just before I was joining it they were started looking at tissue engineering and then as I was joining they pivoted the technology which happens often
00:42:54
Speaker
to look at um fermentation. So could you get an organism like a yeast to produce collagen, which is the building block of skin, and then take that collagen and make it into a material? So when I joined, it wasn't that it was the tissue engineering that I was bringing to it. It was just the ability to work side by side in the lab with the director of material science. My role was um eventually end up being the associate director of materials design. So I worked hand in hand with the material science leads to bring a design perspective into the lab, but also to help break down things like design feedback into things that could be actionable in regards to experiments, to be able to take their current protocol and push at the edges of that and understand what variables you could change, and then look at what effect that would have. So we really felt this was a really long answer to your question, but really it was the way you do something, not what you're doing, was really what the PhD taught me.
00:43:53
Speaker
So collaboration is a huge part of the the field that you're you're in, and it's been a big part of your journey as well. I was interested, how how would you you know how do you go about encouraging cross-disciplinary collaboration? Yeah, I mean, it's been instrumental for for me and i so in and in the space in in general. What's interesting is that a lot of the companies are by nature have set that up, especially if they're founded with a creative founder. The other thing as well is that just having leaders in the space that recognise the importance of of that. So the CEO and co-founder of Modern Meadow, Andress,
00:44:30
Speaker
recognised the importance of design that she brought in Suzanne Lee, who was the Chief Creative Officer, um and she hired me. So she was very, really paid the way. It was you know the first time there was a design team within a scientifically founded start-up of that nature. um And she so she really pushed to make sure that there was a design team and that it was embedded within the the development of the material rather than being something at the end that was designed to make things look pretty or or so design you know the PowerPoint decks for the team.
00:45:02
Speaker
um and She's been working and she's also the founder of Biofabricate and has been working field for 20-25 years before people were even talking about sustainability and fashion. she was she discovered She was writing a book on the future of fashion, had her chance encounter with a biologist in an art gallery, and she was asking people, well, what do you see as the future of fashion? And he said, well, you'd be able to grow a dress in a vat of liquid. And she was like...
00:45:29
Speaker
that sort of hold the phone, sorry, what. um And that began a collaboration between them. So he had a company and she worked with him and then she was working with ah bacterial cellulose and growing a sort of a leather alternative. But as with all the innovations, it was just too soon. she There was some amount of funding from things like the Arts Council, but because you have a scientific background, there wasn't funding there. At that point,
00:45:55
Speaker
It was, I think the the economics didn't work, but now there's a whole bunch of companies that are using very similar, based on the same technology because the timing's right, the industry's ready for it. There's ah an understanding around material innovation and sort of funding that.
00:46:11
Speaker
I think from her career, it's always been about bringing those people together, which is also why she founded Biofabricate. So she was saying she'd been to all these scientific conferences, you know, ah as the only designer in the room going, I feel like there should be designers here, like there should be this collaboration happening.
00:46:27
Speaker
And it it's not. And there needs to be an event that brings everyone together. so And then somebody said, well, why don't you
The Vision and Impact of Biofabricate
00:46:34
Speaker
do it? So that was the genesis of Biofabricate, which started as an event that brought together startups, designers, brands, researchers, all into one space for an event that talked about what that collaboration looked like and what was needed in the space and and what does ah multidisciplinary but is a multidisciplinary approach to working with bolo G for materials look like and that was founded did the first one in 2014 and I was working on that I was working with Suzanne when she had a consultancy in London started the bio fabricate she went to join modern meadow and I um
00:47:13
Speaker
joined after that, but we we're very lucky that the company always supported us doing that event. And then in twenty nine mid-2019, we both stepped away to go full-time and buy fabric cakes. We knew there was a lot more that we could do with it there, but really our whole interest is in that multi-disciplinary and bringing those different sort of people together. I think it's that's where the interesting stuff happens and you need to have all of those inputs to make something as successful as possible. So it's definitely something we feel really passionate about.
00:47:43
Speaker
In the future, what's biofabricates, you know, ideal vision for the future when you're mapping out your goals, you know, what's at the top of the list? I mean, for for us as a company or just the field in, field in general? ah You could do both if you if you'd like. Yeah, I mean, well, that's, I mean... Well, you can pick and choose. I suppose it's sort of like one in the same in really is that actually that these innovations are scaling and come to market. I mean, i we would always say that this is not, there is no such thing as a silver bullet in terms of materials and our production in what we produce. Everything has an impact. I think we need all solutions as fast as possible. So there's lots of really interesting stuff for like textile to textile recycling, looking at reducing and
00:48:34
Speaker
what we make and I think there's a lot that she needs to come together and biofabricated materials are a portion of that. you know it's It's always dangerous to say that this thing will just solve all of our problems but for us it's seeing these innovations in the market and going beyond mimicry. So really embracing the pair of design and the uniqueness of these materials to be sort of celebrated for what they are. I think there's a lot where we're we're very used to sort of uniformity.
00:49:06
Speaker
you know, things looking the same. Like every pair of adidas or Nike sneakers, like each each pair looks the same. I mean, even kind of down to the fruit and vegetables we buy in our supermarkets, like there was that whole thing around people not wanting like wonky fruit and veg because we have this idea of things being sort of perfect.
00:49:27
Speaker
But wouldn't it be interesting if every single product was unique in the way that like biology is unique and that no one else could have that because it's, and like so I think there's a lot around trying to shift, you know, the, and that's partly consumer marketing set. It's also like bravery of brands, but really trying to, yeah, embrace all that biology can be. you And there'll be, there's room for both of those approaches. People who want things are the same. but I think we yeah I'd be interested to see where we can move beyond uniformity all the time.
00:50:06
Speaker
yeah Have you seen any you know great examples of different brands or innovators really engaging the public or industry in in a new type of material? Yeah, there's um the Bash and Brand Gany that have actually really been pushing in this field where they have some of the fabrics of the future and they are very much um embracing and trying things out so being quite brave in what they' so that they'll do and putting out sort of prototypes, launching some things and one of the um latest prototypes that they launched and they're developing with an innovator was it was what they're called their boo bag which is a sort of their classic styles but they worked with
00:50:52
Speaker
um a Mexican start-up called Polybion who are working with bacterial cellulose and they have embraced its natural pattern and the sort of this the variation, I want to say inconsistency, the variation in colour that you can get which is um really refreshing to see. So because it could, because it's a sheet material, they could have gone the route where they tried to sort of emboss it with a calf grain tenet black, which is this would be the safer route to try and make sure but we want people to sort of accept this and and and be comfortable with it. So I think they've tried to
00:51:30
Speaker
that's a a sort of a brave choice to really let it be what it is. And then working with lots of different innovators to try and get things through prototyping and testing into into product. And yeah they've been very vocal about there's sort of like a moral obligation. The founder, who was of the brand, was at our summit in January recently. and he said you know There's like there's a like a moral obligation to to be really supporting these these new materials and the you know the business case is difficult at the moment as with all technologies they are more expensive when they first come to market and some of them are considerably more. um So there's a there's a road to get to price parity but there's also then a yeah know that comes down to the so the mechanisms of the system that we find ourselves in where we where materials and and have quite a lot have a very large impact on the end of a the the overall impact of a product. But maybe they're actually what's being paid for that particular material might be only a fraction of the the end cost. So in terms of monetary. and So have you have you noticed any trends in the the type of people that are interested in exploring or purchasing the type of products that you've mentioned? It is a type of people
00:52:46
Speaker
in with any sort of new technology you get, sort of early adopters. and there was There's definitely ah a group there who are particularly driven to to purchase because it's new and they are um very much invested in the the technology and its uniqueness and the fact that it's not been done before. And I think that's the same, in it could be the same in any industry for any new technology.
00:53:12
Speaker
And then you there's a wave of consumers who are just interested in making more sustainable choices. That is doesn't always bear out into how they behave at checkout, as it were. There's definitely a say-do gap where there's a lot of research around that. But a lot of it is on brands could do more to and and to educate and engage their consumers. um When we did the report that we did, it was actually about four years ago now,
00:53:40
Speaker
We had some say to us, well, we feel like they kind of consumers can get their head around recycling, but we're not sure we're going to talk about biomaterials because it feels like it's too too much. And you know if if big brands don't take up that mantle to talk about these innovations, everything falls on the innovator and they are small teams with limited budget. So it does need And it is happening with the likes of Gany and various other sort of challenger brands who are so putting their neck out to to to talk about it. So hopefully the rest of the industry will will follow. But ultimately, and it's really important that whilst there is huge merit in
00:54:19
Speaker
having materials that are more sustainable and they but they also need to perform and there is a table stakes there which is everyone does need to hit and that's you know that's a work in progress for some people is because their early stage and that hitting performance I think is table stakes where I think it really explode or have a major impact is where you can talk about what that material or ingredient offers that is unique to it and its technology. So because people might be will buy something because of sustainability once but they'll buy it again because of its performance or what it offers them.
Market Demand and Consumer Interest in Biomaterials
00:54:57
Speaker
So if that's where there's a real opportunity to really explore and double down on what other the unique performance and characteristics that are inherent in the way in the technology that was used to make it um that that differentiates it from other materials. um And that might be it might be better in some some aspects of its performance and and worse in others or at worse or just different. But that's where I think anything has real power is where you can see what is it offering that something else doesn't. And that's really why I think we go back and buy products again.
00:55:33
Speaker
um is Is there more interest from B2C customers or B2B on average in the space, or is is it very dependent? Is it quite hard to answer that question? Yes, this is yeah it's relatively hard to answer, but probably i'm in terms of really driving the space, the biggest push is from B2B. There's a real spectrum there. There's some very, very educated brands who've done a lot of work and who have really sort of embedded in this space, like Caring.
00:55:57
Speaker
group, for example, and and and their brands like Balenciaga have launched, sort of put on their way to different coats, using different bios of innovators, Gucci itself developed their own sort of bio material. So there's ah there's some that are very, very educated and sort of leading the way. Some are ah catching up on that journey and understanding, but there's definitely a real push from the industry to work with aning and include new materials that are more sustainable into their product. time there There's a way to go there yet. I think we're still seeing this mostly being sort of like capsules or or sort of one-off. The next real challenge of the industry is to move
00:56:38
Speaker
from those smaller scale into real scale. And that's what a lot of them, the more later-stage startups are really working through, is like, what do these, what facilities do they need? At what point can they drop into the supply chain? How much they need to build themselves in terms of ah facilities? Or where can they collaborate or leverage existing infrastructure? Because things really will have an impact once they get to to scale. and And so many of our materials, Holly Esther, thank you.
00:57:06
Speaker
of well if I sick ah never remember the percentage which is always the one that falls out of my head but it's a huge amount of what we use and but that's economies of scale. like It's hugely scaled, it's at very cheap cost so to have real impact it ah even if you look at something like cotton or the amount of leather that we use only real impact will happen when we can get to some meaningful scale and that needs sort of lots of innovators to succeed because not it won't just be one, we're going to need lots of different innovators to succeed because there's there's much more demand than there is supply at the moment. and In terms of business models in the space, are there any companies or or startups with business models that you think work particularly well and in the space?
00:57:50
Speaker
I think there's other people who are thinking, well, we first saw earlier on in the space that everyone wanted to, I think, vertically integrate everything as much as possible. So they they were trying to figure out not just the the science behind how to make the thing, but also have their own facilities for producing it, turning it into a material.
00:58:14
Speaker
trying to sort yeah really own everything in that that value chain. And there's a definite argument for that. um But I think we are seeing more and more people, startups and companies realise that they've got enough things to figure out in what they have on their plate. And that some and it makes sense to partner with without maybe it's like a ah CMO, like a a manufacturing ah partner to make what it is that they're making so they can focus on the science and then somebody else can and then maybe they can try it out with like a pilot lab or pilot scale and then they transfer that to someone else to actually make at scale. So that's interesting people looking at what parts do they need to own it and and where can they i have partnerships in the space and then also there's we've seen a
00:59:01
Speaker
a few be announced. I think it's an interesting model like consortium models, so bringing multiple different partners together. And that can be from the manufacturing supply chain through to brands to help share the risk um around getting materials to to market. So that's an interesting approach that some people have have taken. But more and more, it seems that yeah people are trying to outsource where it makes sense for them, um which I think is is a route to getting there faster.
00:59:31
Speaker
and and How do you go about you know engaging investors in the space? so In the early stages of the field, a lot of investors came from sort hardware and software, and that was problematic in a lot of ways because that you can without having an understanding of the industry, it can be difficult. um So it you know you can fix an app on someone's phone but with an update that you can't fix a shoe if its toe box like blows out like if it or if the heel like detaches or it just falls apart. ah you there is So that the idea of
01:00:05
Speaker
how quickly things could get to market I think was mismatched and we are looking at working with biology a lot of complex technology and it's you know that's measured in decades and not in months or a couple of years which is is somewhat different to the time frame.
01:00:22
Speaker
um And actually, when you look at this precedent for that, actually, when we look through like Lycra took decades to develop and then commercialize and, and, and then many decades to get to the level of like market penetration, and that was built on existing chemistry and, and and know how and and facilities. So you we're still relatively early and there's a lot that's been talked about a lot in the media. Everyone feels like it should be further along than it is. I mean, we definitely needing to see people come to maturity and the things launching but it is still in the grand scheme of things relatively ah early still um but for investors now we've seen more come into the space that have either come from the biotech side or from more of a sort of industry side which is a really great thing. It's and from different a or from like climate funds so for a lot of you know startups
01:01:13
Speaker
they are, it's a, kind of a real full time job, like courting investors and finding the right ones. And it's definitely, you've got to find the right people and it it takes time. It's not, I think there's a, maybe a bit of a, this idea that you have one great meeting with an investor and all of a sudden like a check will appear and that's not not the, not the case. um But a lot of, we're seeing more investors actively seeking out this space.
01:01:36
Speaker
And if I was ah you know an entrepreneur trying to to seek investment, aside from maybe the usual questions and anyone should prepare for when trying to seek investment in any any space, are there any specific questions if I was in charge of a biofabrication stop that I should prepare for?
01:01:53
Speaker
I think we see a lot still, which is always very interesting, that there's somehow this worry that there's not gonna be a market there, um which, and so that can lead to pressure to go out and get sort of letters of, like LOI, letters of intent from brands, which can cause a lot of churn because see if you're not ready, it's like, and we might have something that's interesting to you. Like, would you theoretically buy it? Yes, we would, but it's years out. um So I think having a good answer for,
01:02:22
Speaker
and ability to talk to that sort of the market. um And being realistic, like a lot of people say, like oh, we'll replace all of leather. like You're never going to replace all of leather. Just like physically, you couldn't scale to that and to that degree. So being realistic around what your addressable mark is. And I think talking to why your solution makes sense or is unique. you know Why biology?
01:02:48
Speaker
I think that's a lot, but sometimes you don't want it just be for the sake of it. So I think that's there's got to be a real real argument for it is it is smarter to use biology or this technology because of these things and being open to the fact that there might be a different way of doing it. So making sure that this the tail doesn't wag the dog in that in that regard and using technology for technology's sake.
01:03:12
Speaker
it's kind of just an aside but it was something that I've been thinking about here and there and I just find quite quite interesting is the the idea that you know in the future that we can we'll be we can live and perhaps we'll be living with living objects and I'm just quite interested to hear your thoughts on on that shift in culture that may occur.
Future Perspectives and Resources in Biofabrication
01:03:32
Speaker
Yeah I mean it's definitely I think for any designer that's such a tantalizing thought and the possibilities there are really exciting and fascinating and I think we will get there.
01:03:46
Speaker
it will all be a question of timing. there's There's a lot that needs to be in place for that so it's to come to fruition and i'm making sure, again, that the applications are right for, you don't know, another sort of like Google Glass ah situation, with but with the with sort of a living thing. So I think it's like, where would that really bring something that we can't get? um And maybe that's in more,
01:04:16
Speaker
intuitive interfaces and then our homes. I mean, there's lots of research that's already been done in that space, like whether it's um looking too short. So the company that was growing, um looking to grow ah cement will also have a project called Biomason, will also have a project with um sort of marine ecosystems and having things where you can actually get sea defenses that will sort of grow and and strengthen themselves. So that's interesting. Somebody else who was looking at the microbiome of a home and having surfaces that are actually encouraging microbes, like healthy microbes to live. So thinking about our living environments and that being more symbiotic. So there's a lot of research that's being done and and looking into it. But who is that? Where does it, what does it enhance and bring
01:05:02
Speaker
to a space, rather than the kind of gimmick nature of it. Not that they suggested that's necessarily where it would go, but there's always that chance where it's like, it's pretty cool. But for me, it becomes really interesting where it starts to be, there's a real added benefit. And also I particularly am interested in thinking about ecosystems and they're seeing ourselves as part of ecosystems rather than something that's that's separate, which is definitely something that came through on a researching PhD and people thinking about. there' There could be a lot that would be we would benefit from if we lived in more sort of symbiotic and and had and there was that
01:05:40
Speaker
innate relationship to living things that we can get. It's a real privilege if you can go out in nature. And that's not always the case if people are living in you know increasingly urban environments. But how do we continue to have that connection with living ah living things? And we know there's so much research around the benefits to health. And then that should in turn make sure that it's more there's a health, the benefit in the health of the planet in general.
01:06:05
Speaker
Speaking of research, where can people find these great pieces of research or or resources and and also maybe some books that you might recommend? Yeah. I mean, it's really, really sort of broad. I think for a lot of people, if you want to get sort of hands on, there are increasingly there's starting to be sort of courses that you can take, but also there's a lot of like DIY bio labs in different cities where you can go and um get your hands dirty, like take a class, see whether you like if you're really interested in sort of biology side of things. It's not for everyone. Some people might be like, I really want to work in this field, but actually I'm particularly interested in the storytelling part of it. So then you might want to focus more on the sort of communications and things like that. So hands on, there's a lot of places you can go in and try
01:06:51
Speaker
those, you know, where you can just get stuck in where you don't need any, you know, you could have done science at school, but you don't have to have any qualifications. um Some great examples are like Genspace in New York, Police City in Rosadam. There's so many that I forget all of the names, but there's a lot that you can you can find in terms of be inspired. Yeah, like YouTube and places like TED are really good examples to have like short inspirational things. Podcasts, I love to listen to, yeah, a podcast is always is really good. And then in terms of ah some things to read, there's, I mean, it really depends on where you're looking for, there's some great so foundational books, we can sort of like bio art and bio design by
01:07:34
Speaker
William Myers, which covers a range of different topics and projects in the field. um And then there's some really great books even more around the sort of theory and contextualism. There's a bit that's very important when I was um researching my PhD. There's of course, The System's View of Life um by Friedrich Capra and Pier Luigi Luisi.
01:08:00
Speaker
I shouldn't pronounce those names on but it was around sort of moving away from like the idea that like the Descartes idea that we have a brain or like we have a body but we are our brain to that sort of much more systems view of everything being connected which is really interesting as a sort of a philosophy and a conceptual idea for so but design practice. So many I feel like I could probably say write you a list and I'm not giving very specific answers but I think really it depends on what you're interested in because there's a lot if you want it really technical like there's some great i AI tools now that will synthesize like you're like okay what are the scientific papers on this area of synthetic biology like can you synthesize those for me and then you can look at sort of what are the research labs that are doing that work and then go and read some of their papers or see if any of their researchers have done a you know that there's a talk on YouTube so it's really
01:08:51
Speaker
my favorite way of doing research is that kind of daisy chain of you find one thing that leads you to another that leads you to another and there's just so much out there I think a lot of it is just getting a sense of like what is it that really fascinates you and then following that that through which is definitely how I ended up being where where I am I could never have plotted out this as a career path if I'd sat down like before before university and like where would I like to go like never have got here in a minute years so a lot of it is just following what you're interested in And if I was an entrepreneur or designer and I was interested in exploring the biofabrication space, but I didn't have any, any science background, what advice would you, would you give me or what would you say? And how, how accessible, so you're a great example, actually, you know, not, not really coming from a totally scientific background. Yeah. I mean, I think it's.
01:09:41
Speaker
first for myself like be really honest with yourself is like do you want to start a company because that will probably one of the least creative things you can do if you start a company you're going to be like fundraising and that you'll be directing other people to to do the work which is but like it's hugely rewarding but like be honest with yourself do you want to start your own company because that's a huge commitment if you don't then maybe be looking as to companies you could go and join. Or maybe it's not joining a company in space but trying to join a brand who have got you know a team where they're trying to integrate these materials. so If you are like wheelie you really do have a desire tip to make make a material or an ingredient or to so forge something and and and make you know make your own, then
01:10:29
Speaker
I would say it's always useful to have a particular problem in mind that
Entrepreneurial Strategies in Biomaterial Innovation
01:10:35
Speaker
you're trying to solve. like There's a really a real need for a solution for this ingredient or this product. That also obviously has got to be ah combined with trying to get a sense of what would be the best way to develop a solution for that and that might not be a biology it might be or it might be material science with a bio you know a waste biomass input it might be synthetic biology like trying to get a sense of that and then just having conversations I think you know finding labs where people are are looking at that trying it I think with anyone if you're creative it it makes sense to try and find a co-founder
01:11:11
Speaker
who can complement your skill set so you've got that mix of who comes from the sort of scientific side of things and then you know you as a creative and entrepreneur understanding the market and the product and that can be a really great fit you've got to make sure you get on with them really well because you're going to be like it's it's somewhat like a barrage and and then trying to find non-dilutive sources of funding just to trial stuff out particularly in the in the EU and it's you know, there's quite a lot of, there's more funding available, I'd say, probably than in the States. Looking at different ah accelerators, I'd probably wait to go through, they're like, they do exist, where they'll give a certain amount of cash injection for for some equity, but I think you want to make sure that you're a certain way along before you explore that. But looking at all the ways where you can have time to try out your idea before you have to take someone else's money is always a good, is always a good approach. um And then
01:12:05
Speaker
Yeah, i think really, it's finding the right team to to build it with you, ultimately, and being sure it's what you want to do, because it it's no mean, it's no small task. but But in short, it is accessible for, you know, someone without a science background. You don't have to be you know put off No, not at all. I think in some ways it's actually useful that you don't and you want to get a certain amount. It's useful. it is It is good to develop a certain amount of understanding and of literacy around being able to have a conversation with someone who's developing the technology.
01:12:40
Speaker
But you don't need to have the same background as like a co-founder if you find a scientific co-founder. You want to be able sure that you you're talking the same about the same thing, but you want to bring your background, and it should those two things should be complementary. When I first started doing things like my PhD, I felt like I needed to become a tissue engineer. So I need to do a PhD in tissue engineering. I don't understand how it all works. I can't do anything. And then I realized, actually, I just needed to know enough to develop some experiments and start my process but actually the the interesting was the fact that I wasn't a tissue engineer and I was working with tissue engineering so I think it's trying not to fall into the trap of trying to become a scientist but just try and understand and enough um and then get hands on and talk to people if you if it's a relatively depending on the type of science that you are looking at or you think might work there are there's a lot of stuff you can try yourself
01:13:36
Speaker
you know, go to one of those DOA bio labs and rent space and and try things out. There's always people there who will give you support in that. So I think with a lot of it is just, yeah, getting stuck in talking to people and then finding the right.
Curiosity and Collaboration in Biomaterials
01:13:49
Speaker
sort of collaborators in whatever sort of sense that is to help you prove out that there's a there's a there there and then economics is the other thing which is no one really wants to look at but making sure that as best as possible there's an like it's economically viable what you want to do because it can be the coolest idea in the world but if it's going to cost a hundred times more than the existing material or or you or it's going to take five times longer to make it you've got to make sure that it is going to work, or it you believe it will be able to get to an economic point of working at scale, which is is a hard thing to do, but it's really important because if there's not that isn't there, or it doesn't work in that regard, it's gonna the wheels are going to come off at some point. um what is What is one thing you'd love more people to know about? I mean, I think just that just inspiring that wonder, I mean, it it sounds somewhat cliche, but there's so much that
01:14:46
Speaker
nature ah can manufacture to a level that we could only dream of. And I think there's a lot around, we do like to think we're very smart as a species, and actually we could learn an and an incredible amount. I think that there's an example where there is a a motor, that the smallest motor we can make is huge in comparison, almost like the nanoscale like motors that sort of like, you know, cogs or motor systems that biology can make.
01:15:15
Speaker
So I think there's a lot around, I'd love people just to that sort of curiosity. And also, I think we just need to talk more about where our materials come from. And there's a lot we've become a somewhat divorced from how things are made. And and ah and there should be more trust in consumers. I think there's a lot around. Oh, we just need need to tell them that because it's not.
01:15:34
Speaker
It's too complicated. i think So we reduce things to be so simple that it moves the ability to sort to debate and be curious. and And so I think that for me is, I just encourage further curiosity around nature and how things are made and um and the that people to go out and collaborate with biology. Is there anything I've missed or any last words of wisdom?
01:16:01
Speaker
were um yeah I think it's just, it's been great to to chat about all of this. is like and If I could plug something for for a minute cheekily, I'd say if you are looking to get started in this space or you're working in this space and you're just looking to to network and and to find connections. We've just launched um a new membership, a biofabricate. So we have a professional membership, which is for startups, brands, investors, supply chain, who are working in the bioinnovation space. We also have ah what's called our community membership, which is really for anyone who's interested in bioinnovation. So researchers, students, academics, um artists, designers, you know, really,
01:16:50
Speaker
Yeah, the the whole community is welcome there and it is a place where you can showcase your work, find connections, get advice. So um that's a great place to start if you're just looking to immerse yourself and and and learn more. um And that's over on our, there's more information on our website. So we'd really urge people to to join there and and and be part of the conversation.
01:17:12
Speaker
Well, I just want to say thank you for your time. It's been really, really great to to chat and hear your insights and so knowledgeable. And it's very inspiring as well, you know, hearing your journey and, you know, all the work that you've been working on and and and the space in general as well. As I said, it's like, it's like alchemy and a magic. So yeah I see you as a magician. I'll take it. I'll take it wrong with it. But yeah, no, well, thank you so much for for having me.
01:17:41
Speaker
Thanks again to Amy Congdon for talking about her career and the world of biofabrication with us. And thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode.