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The Listening Lens: When Communities Lead the Way
39 Plays5 months ago
Welcome to the second episode of The Qual Point of View, a limited podcast series featuring expert voices from the field using qualitative insights for real-time decision-making.
In this episode, Ooloi Labs co-founder Yashna Jhamb speaks with Priyanka Dutt and Samir Khan from GivingTuesday about the evolving role of qualitative research in driving social impact.
The conversation explores the “why behind the what”; how stories, motivations, and human experiences bring depth to data. Together, they explore how qualitative and quantitative methods can work in tandem, the tensions between academic rigor and on-ground adaptability, and why failure should be embraced as part of the learning process.
They also discuss power dynamics in research, community-led design, and the ethical use of technology and AI in shaping the future of research.
The episode is a reminder of what it means to truly listen; not as a checkbox in a program design document, but as a genuine commitment to letting community voices lead, shape, and redefine the work itself.
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Transcript
Welcome to The Paul Point of View
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome everyone and thanks for tuning in into The Paul Point of View, a podcast series by Uloy Labs. I'm Yashna Jam, one of the co-founders of Uloy Labs. I'm a designer, researcher by training and spend years in the development sector across various domains, listening to people, their stories and trying to make sense of them at scale.
Why Qualitative Data Matters
00:00:22
Speaker
Today, we're talking about the power of data in informing decisions, but not the kind you're all familiar with. We're diving into the world of qualitative data. When we think of data, we often prioritize numbers.
00:00:35
Speaker
Qualitative research brings something just as crucial. The why behind the what. It captures human stories, experiences, and nuances that go beyond numbers, helping us truly understand the issues we're trying to solve.
Meet the Experts: Priyanka and Sameer
00:00:51
Speaker
Joining me today are two incredible experts who bring complimentary perspectives to the space. Priyanka, joining us from Delhi, brings a human-centered approach uncovering the deeper stories and motivations that drive behavior.
00:01:06
Speaker
And Sameer, who's joining us from Montreal, is a technical expert in qualitative methods, ensuring that these insights are rigorous, reliable, and actionable. Both work at Giving Tuesday and bring years of experience in the space across different domains and organizations they've worked with in the past.
00:01:25
Speaker
So let's dive in.
The Role of Qualitative Research
00:01:33
Speaker
Just to start with, Priyanka, if you can share what has been your journey with qualitative research, why is it important to you today? Thanks so much, Yashna. It's a delight to be here. And thank you for bringing us together to have this conversation.
00:01:49
Speaker
i think Samir and I have had this conversation ourselves several times. And, you know, we're both big fans of just how powerful qualitative data can be. And I'm not a researcher.
00:02:00
Speaker
My background is that I'm a communication specialist. That's what I've built a career doing. But I built a career doing this with the heavy reliance on qualitative data to be able to understand human behavior, to be able to really get deep insights into why people do the things that they do.
00:02:21
Speaker
And then to create communication that actually addresses social impact issues based on that understanding of why people do what they do. So it's one of those things where, particularly when it comes to communication, I think qualitative research is a it's an essential tool.
00:02:39
Speaker
It's one of those things that really helps you figure out your audience better, but also how best to appeal to your audience, how best to make the case to them, if you like, to be able to get them to consider whatever it is that you want them to consider.
00:02:54
Speaker
And then I think as well, when you use qualitative data to create communication, I think you also learn how to listen to stories But when you're looking for impact, you start to listen for stories of impact and you start to go beyond the things that are independently verifiable. You know, you start to sort of really center the human being in those stories. So for me, it's been very much about people first, people at the center.
00:03:21
Speaker
Super, super. Thanks for sharing that. ah so me Same question to you. What's been your journey?
The Journey from Journalism to Research
00:03:28
Speaker
I guess, like Priyanka, I didn't start my career as a researcher.
00:03:32
Speaker
I started my career as a journalist, so the kind of working in storytelling spaces was very much the orientation I was around, and then I made a transition. My first transition to working in research was in qualitative research, doing focus group research.
00:03:47
Speaker
And then, variety of reasons, I thought it might be nice to complement some of my skills development by doing some quantitative training. And so I think I'm one of those people who's dabbled in a few different ways of thinking about questions, which are pretty simple, which is like, what happened?
00:04:05
Speaker
What should we do? That's sort of like the research. The purpose of doing research is that you want to understand both of those questions. And I've kind of, like as Priyanka said, like really come to appreciate both sides of this kind of the great divide in the research community about qualitative and quantitative.
00:04:23
Speaker
And I think some people, depending on their training, they start from one place and they say, well, that's the one that's most important. But yes, it's good to do the other thing. And you know you can hear that from economists, you can hear that from sociologists, you can hear that from the ethnographers.
00:04:38
Speaker
And I'm kind of like straight in the middle. I kind of feel like they are two complementary pieces of helping shape and understanding for all sorts of purposes. And I think talking about the particular thing that qualitative research can do, that quantitative research can't, is super important.
00:04:54
Speaker
Because I think as we navigate how we understand our future, it's going to be very important that we appreciate how we're going to bring these methods together to shape our understanding.
00:05:05
Speaker
So that's sort of been my journey. In my current role, I'm Director of Research at Giving Tuesday. Mostly we do quant stuff. But when we do quant stuff, everybody wants to understand the qualitative component. and So it's something we're definitely thinking about a lot is how to integrate more qualitative work into what is largely a quantitative practice so far.
Expanding Understanding through Qualitative Methods
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah. You said the things that qualitative data is supposed to do, it should do. If you can just share more about that and how do you think that complements with quant?
00:05:38
Speaker
So I think... The thing that qualitative research methods do is really expand your understanding of questions related to why. So if you understand if something happened, quantitative methods can help you isolate some particular factors.
00:05:55
Speaker
But qualitative methods enable you to capture many, many more of those factors that kind of shape an understanding. And it allows you to do that in a way that centers the end research subject as in some ways leading the conversation in a way that quantitative methods can't.
00:06:14
Speaker
And I think that that's that's super important. And I think when I think about really impactful research on the qualitative side, a lot of it has essentially done that ah in a way that quantitative methods couldn't.
00:06:28
Speaker
And so that's what I think is super important about a qualitative research. Super. And I'm also aware that Priyanka often brings in that lens, at least with the work that we've done at Giving Tuesday, Priyanka has always spoken about. I'm always asking, but why? Or what is the reason behind the con?
00:06:45
Speaker
But I'd like to know, Priyanka, from you as well, like the questions you've asked coming in and the conversations you've had with the research team and the data team at Giving Tuesday.
00:06:57
Speaker
It's one of those things where, you know, when we started work on the Giving Tuesday Data Commons in India, and we started to think about what's our first project going to be, it wasn't sort of a rigorous research study of any sort, but it was basically focus group discussions that we undertook to get to the point of, you know, deciding that this is the specific research question that we want to focus on.
00:07:22
Speaker
And it was so interesting that the one that emerged as the key priority for the sector, and we did this over multiple sort of conversations with groups of representatives from across civil society in India, the one that emerged was wanting to understand donor motivations better.
00:07:40
Speaker
Now, to my mind, as a practitioner, if you want to understand donor motivations, that's a why question. That's not even a what, you know, how many questions.
00:07:51
Speaker
Yes, of course, you want to be able to size the market and all of those things. But first and foremost, it's a why question. So, you know, the moment you start to wonder what motivates somebody to do something or what's getting in their way,
00:08:04
Speaker
That's fundamentally qualitative. That's fundamentally, you know, we need to be able to understand why people are doing things to be able to address whatever we want to address and sort of figure out which direction we want to take them in.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's not just only why, even like the research that we were a part of, which was around absenteeism of girls for after school program. And the question was, essentially, what are the reasons? I mean, it's a why formed as absenteeism.
00:08:36
Speaker
What? Because they wanted to do a quant of it, right? What are the reasons of absenteeism? And they were like, these are 10 options. And we came to this point that the researchers were also like, can we just make this open-ended?
00:08:47
Speaker
Because what if we discover something new, you know? And that's what ended up happening. And the reasons were like, in a particular small school or block, there's no streetlight.
00:09:00
Speaker
And you can find those reasons only when you keep an open-ended question. Nobody's going to probably write a reason like a streetlight in your list of options that you want to give. What you've just said has, ah you know, it's it's reminded me of a story from my previous job. from ah used to be at BBC Media Action, the BBC's international NGO, where we used to sort of...
00:09:21
Speaker
spend a lot of time really kind of pre-testing and user testing anything that we did communications-wise before it went out into the real world. And we were at one stage trying to figure out a tool, something that frontline health workers could use with families that they were visiting.
00:09:41
Speaker
And we got very excited because projector phones had just hit the market in India. And we were like, this is a fantastic opportunity because what we can do is we can put video content into every frontline health worker's hands because she can then go into this wherever it is, whoever's home, and she can project this video content onto anything, including the floor or a wall.
00:10:02
Speaker
So we said, OK, let's figure this out. Let's test it. So we bought three different brands of projector phone, you know loaded a bunch of content on it and sent it out into the world for a user test.
00:10:16
Speaker
And the health workers hated it. They absolutely hated it. It just, it failed from the beginning. And it failed because they hated the phones.
00:10:28
Speaker
The content was great. They loved the content. They hated the phones. The phones were bulky, baddest. Battery didn't last. There were a million buttons when they were used to really simple feature phones. The screens were just weird for them. They didn't know what to do and how to kind of really access the content that they wanted to reach.
00:10:45
Speaker
It was a disaster. So we just kind of literally sort of walked away from that idea and went in a whole different direction.
Learning from Failure in Research
00:10:52
Speaker
But if we hadn't actually tested that to start with, we would have invested millions in procuring hardware and distributing hardware that would then have been basically junk yeah i think this happens all the time like it's like a great idea let's implement at scale and immediately and honestly sometimes you don't know the right balance because you're like how do you sample how do you figure that this is the right test but samir in your experience have you ever had this conflict of should we start with test should we start with scale should what is the balance
00:11:28
Speaker
I mean, I think it really depends on the issue that you're talking about. So again, maybe drawing from a past example, I worked on a qualitative research project that was informed by things that were showing up in public opinion research, quantitative public opinion research poll.
00:11:45
Speaker
And it was about young people and their attitudes towards HIV AIDS. And there was some indication that many young people were, this is like 15 years ago, were increasingly beginning to harbor negative attitudes towards people living with HIV AIDS.
00:12:03
Speaker
This was in Canada. This was appearing in in a qualitative survey and public health agencies were concerned about this. They were concerned about it from a discriminatory side of it. And so they commissioned us to do some, this firm that I was working with, to do some focus group work with young people.
00:12:22
Speaker
And it's interesting, the hypothesis was that this was primarily related to discrimination, related to homophobia, related to negative attitudes around the types of people who were perceived as having this condition.
00:12:35
Speaker
What it turned out was, certainly that was there among some young people, but also a lot of the other young people were maybe a few years out of their most recent public health training or schooling.
00:12:46
Speaker
And so they're in their university career, so they weren't getting reinforced messages about how the disease was trend. And so what was beginning is that they're beginning to forget some of the things that they learned. And so therefore, they were beginning to develop distancing attitudes because they were under the assumption that you don't know how you can catch this thing.
00:13:05
Speaker
Even though if you asked them and dug a bit deeper, they actually remembered, but they just sort of forgotten this lesson. So all that to say, this is a kind of an example of, you know, we still locate what the problem might be, but the kind of um policy options or solution options that you pursue become very, very different. You become, you know, making sure that you reinforce public health education outside of the high school system in much more ways.
00:13:30
Speaker
yeah important ways, right? So this is like an example to me of, you know, you needed the quant to maybe understand that there was an issue that wasn't emerging, but you needed the qualitative thing to inform actually what you were going to do about it.
00:13:45
Speaker
I think there are other contexts in which that situation is completely reversed, where you would start from doing a qualitative exploration about particular issues facing ah particular population.
Collaboration Between Academia and Practice
00:13:56
Speaker
And then, oh, all of a sudden you begin to realize, yes, actually you can prove this is something that's happening beyond a particular community or beyond the people that you're talking to because it shows up in some macroeconomic statistic. there are lots of examples of that being the case as well.
00:14:11
Speaker
I wish there was a better way like to just make this like a recipe. Like, if you do this, then this will happen. I think that's the thing about social sciences is that There is an aspect of creativity and experimentation that's invariably part of the understanding process.
00:14:26
Speaker
Nobody who claims to be social scientist likes to say that because we like to be scientists. That's reason why we added that word to social researcher. But I think that that's probably the more of the truth than anybody wants to admit about how that works.
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was going to ask, is there a guide that you can say, hey, this is when you need to do coal versus con? But I think you answered that. When we talk about social scientists, often it's looked at as academia.
00:14:56
Speaker
And in the workshop that happened in Toronto, also, there were a few folks who were from universities and they said it's a different rigor in universities.
00:15:07
Speaker
Versus there were a few folks from practitioners and they were like, this is not practical. You know, this can't happen at scale or this can't happen when you have limited time, there's limited resources or like whatever other conditions. But do you think that's a thing which where qualitative research is left for academic practices or like hypotheses which are very theoretical?
00:15:28
Speaker
Maybe, but I would argue there's probably the same dynamic in quantitative research, right? So there's lots of people who work in finance, for example, who do market research or whatever, who are not economists or not statisticians, but do that type of work, but not at that particular type of level I think the difference is like practitioner research is trying to answer a question, whereas academic research has to answer a whole series of questions and defend itself from all sorts of like, are you sure? Are you sure this is what's happening? Are you sure this isn't happening? Show us your work.
00:16:01
Speaker
Show us how you tested this like 16 different ways. And it's super important that someone is doing that work. But for practical purposes, it doesn't need to be done all the time. If someone has done that work academically, it increases your confidence for replicating a smaller version of that for the purposes of what you're trying to do.
00:16:19
Speaker
What I think would be better is if there was a better dialogue between academia practice about what is academia uncovering and how can ah practitioner research take an academic piece of work and adapt it in a responsible way to replicate it for its own purposes.
00:16:38
Speaker
So, for example, let's see, in the qualitative realm, it would be great if focus group guides used in a particular piece of research were made more accessible to practitioners so that they could use some of the questions that may have led people to uncover certain truths.
00:16:54
Speaker
And I just don't feel like, seems like there's this divide. i mean, I've gone to academic conferences and I go to practitioner conferences and it feels like there's just not really many incentives Certainly on the academic side and maybe on the practitioner side for that kind of community of practice to really, really work in the way that it should.
00:17:14
Speaker
Also, people are busy. So I don't know. Yeah. It's a fair point, though. A lot of things get in the way of that kind of dialogue. I know some people and people that we're working with are certainly trying to address it.
00:17:27
Speaker
But even addressing it requires that there's an investment in the kind of collaboration process because that takes resources to bring people together in the room and to facilitate discussion and help them come to some conclusions.
00:17:41
Speaker
And that is just like a very hard thing to fund, right? yeah The example i like using is in many hospitals, there's someone whose job it is to take very, very scientific research findings and then make sure that those understandings are understood by everybody in the hospital value chain. So if there's like a new protocol that's been developed around sterilization of needles, there is a team that goes in and makes sure that nurses, that doctors, that other people who are part of a hospital value chain understand and their checklist developed and people, you know, everything is sort of translated. And in our line of work, no such infrastructure exists, right? And is supported.
00:18:23
Speaker
So. Yeah. Yeah. Prangal, you come from a practitioner lens. You were working in comms and research became a thing. Like it just had to be done.
00:18:35
Speaker
What's your view on, rigor or like, how do you go about this as a practitioner versus anything that you've heard as like, these are the rules because I, From where I see it, I think academia, as Samir said, they need to go question by question and going deeper and deeper. And that's the job description, essentially.
00:18:53
Speaker
But it's very different for what happens on ground when you're doing it. So if you can share some of your experiences. Yeah, and I think, you know, with practitioners in the social sector, ah feel like we use both approaches. We use both sort of action research and academic research. And we kind of, you lean into one or the other depending on what your objectives are.
00:19:14
Speaker
So for instance, if you want to be able to prove the impact of the work that you're doing, and you want to be able to use that almost to be able to get more resources to support the work that you're doing, there's no question that having sort of academic level rigor to the research that you're applying to measuring the impact of the work that you do, you've got to invest there. But very often, a practitioner lens, it's about that. It's what resources do you have available?
00:19:43
Speaker
And therefore, how are you actually making those decisions? So you won't always have the kind of resources you need to do academic level rigor work when you're doing design research, for instance.
00:19:54
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that you don't do it with rigor. You don't do it with academic rigor, but you still do it with research rigor. That means that you can rely on those results and that you can actually design based on that and you can scale things based on that and implement things.
00:20:07
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, in the social sector, whatever you're doing, you're doing to create change, right? You're doing that to see something happen, something shift in communities. So you want to be able to make sure that the research that you're relying on to get your decisions right is done with a degree of rigor and it isn't done sort of just in a throwaway kind of manner.
00:20:28
Speaker
Having said that, there have also been several times when you know, as a practitioner, you need to rely on experience and innate sort of, there is an innate intelligence in the communities that you work with that you can tap into without doing sort of formal research processes.
00:20:50
Speaker
And I'm a big proponent of, you know, depending on what resources you have available, Think about what you really need to be able to do, but don't forget to do that process of making sure that you're working with communities to design or really sort of starting from there rather than saying, I don't have the resources to do the research and therefore I'm just going to make my decision sitting in my office. You know, so it's a whole spectrum.
Community Involvement in Research
00:21:16
Speaker
And that's where the rigor comes in. but That's the rigor, essentially, that you're working with. I think this is very valuable because this is something people, i think, want to do, but often hesitate because they're like, how do you actually work with communities? How do you include them in decisions? This ground-up approach is something which we're hearing now after so many years earlier. it was It has been, or or if you work with multi-country, especially at that level,
00:21:45
Speaker
you don't know how to do ground up work, but if you can share some of your experiences of how did you work with communities, how did you include? And yeah, I think this is my favorite topic. So I can go on this forever, but I'll limit it to some of like, do share your experiences.
00:22:03
Speaker
I mean, i think some of my favorite stories of, again, this goes back to the, we didn't have the resources to do the formal research, but we definitely wanted to be able to root our decisions in the community and in what we were hearing from community.
00:22:18
Speaker
this goes back 15 years now, almost. We were starting a project. This is, again, previous job, starting a project on maternal and child health. in a state that had been very closed for many, many years. So there was no history. There was nothing publicly available to be able to learn about what was going on in the state.
00:22:38
Speaker
My team and I had never worked on maternal and child health. We'd never worked in this state. And we were like, well, you have no idea where to begin. so where we began was that we spent weeks in teams traveling across the state and just talking to people.
00:22:54
Speaker
Literally just stop randomly wherever you are, find somebody who's willing to talk to you and then just sit down and have a conversation. And we heard some of the most amazing things. I mean, one of the things that we heard, we were talking about, we were talking to a group of men just outside of state capital.
00:23:13
Speaker
And we were talking about family planning and st talking about just how many children is it okay to have? What's the size of family, et cetera. And this man says to us, You know, things have changed now in my state because we have a power plant here.
00:23:30
Speaker
And we're all like, um say that again. What do you mean? There's a power plant. What's that got to do with family planning? Because, yeah, now we have electricity 24-7. So we're all watching television.
00:23:43
Speaker
um
00:23:47
Speaker
and It was a question we would never, ever have imagined that we would be able to ask. I have so many stories like that from that time where we were just taken aback by what was going on.
00:24:00
Speaker
This is a state that had recently invested in road infrastructure. So suddenly the state had all of these amazing highways and all of that. And the team that was traveling through, this was a different part of the team that was traveling through ah part of the state, suddenly found that there was a huge group of people sitting on the road.
00:24:19
Speaker
Now in India, and I mean, Samir, i don't know if you've ever heard of this. There's a concept called the Chakka Jam, which is basically that there's people stopping you from traveling down roads because they're protesting something.
00:24:30
Speaker
So the team immediately thought this is a Chakka Jam. So let's get out and see what's going on. And they started chatting with the people who are sitting on the road. And they were like, no, we're not protesting anything. We're just hanging out. We're just sitting here.
00:24:41
Speaker
It's like, why are you sitting on the road? The roads have been built for us. These are our roads. But we don't have cars. So this is the only way we know how to use these roads is that we can sit on the roads because this is a space for us.
00:24:57
Speaker
Again, it's just, you know, you think about roads in such a limited way when you go into the world. And this is about really communities telling you that your view of the world is meaningless.
00:25:09
Speaker
Quite honestly, ah you've got to be able to understand what their view of the world is. Yeah, yeah. Wow. This reminds me of a story I had experienced, and that was my transition into realizing the value of community stories and interactions.
00:25:24
Speaker
We were on the ground for a menstrual health research in really remote parts of Uttar Pradesh. That's a state in India. And we were speaking to young women. And to your point, Samir, there was already a quantitative study done where distribution of pads in schools was a success.
00:25:41
Speaker
And we were speaking to a young principal who had recently joined in one of the schools we visited. And she said the program was not a success before she joined, even though the survey data said otherwise.
00:25:53
Speaker
And this was because there was a male principal before she was there. And that was not the reason why it wasn't a success. He used to do a decent job at distributing those pads and giving away those pads every month, taking a survey after that distribution.
00:26:08
Speaker
But when she she came and did the same, she felt something was off. The girls were still not showing up regularly because that was one of the reasons so of distribution of pads. So she called all girls in a classroom and asked them all together, did you all get the pads? All said yes.
00:26:24
Speaker
Then she said, did you use the pads? Again, they said yes. And then she asked, for what? And they all said, like every month, we make pillow stuffings with the pads.
00:26:36
Speaker
Mm-hmm. We didn't have to do like a rigorous research and go and find like samples of different kinds of data. We just had to be there and ask the questions. And there was already that knowledge with people in that area.
00:26:52
Speaker
So I think That was my shift for like, this is important. Like this stuff can't be let go of and it can't be only call and count. And that's what was like, there is a bridge that needs to be made or at least that conversation needs to happen. Sameer, as you said, there needs to be a dialogue maybe in different spaces.
00:27:10
Speaker
Sameer, since you have come from mix, like you now it's more count, you've been in call. How do you think that dialogue slash engagement What's the balance of rigor? What are the kinds of approaches, say, you you've led these researchers with?
00:27:28
Speaker
Well, I wouldn't say that I've led, maybe been more a part of and participated in some of these things. I think maybe about a decade ago, I was working through a funder in a field of practice, used to be called microfinance, now called financial inclusion.
00:27:44
Speaker
And this is about how to extend financial services to low-income people as a way of helping them improve the conditions of their livelihoods through things like credit, other financial services, education, training, or whatever.
00:27:57
Speaker
This was a very hot topic for a while. I think the initial motivations came from, think, some pretty serious scholars who were looking at how the financial systems evolved in places like Ireland and Scotland and what could be some lessons that might be extractable to other communities where lack of access to those financial services was significant.
00:28:18
Speaker
a factor in economic development. So all that to say, I think one very interesting research area was the use of financial diaries. So there was a lot of things that people were trying in the microfinance phase. Why don't we give people loans? Why we give farmers this? Why don't we give young women this education and training?
00:28:36
Speaker
A lot of it seemed to work for a few people, but didn't work for a lot of people if you looked at the official statistics. But there was a whole movement among researchers to flip the script and try to understand what financial management in a low-income household looked like in a variety of different contexts, rural, urban, different countries, different cultures.
00:28:58
Speaker
And I think The Financial Diaries projects involved essentially getting families to, over the course of a year, write very detailed observations on what they were spending, where they were spending, why they were spending, what pressures they were facing.
00:29:13
Speaker
It yielded a whole wealth of information about dynamics between men and women, different pressures that people were facing, the relationships to money, seasonality, when you make investments in education for your child, all sorts of stuff.
00:29:28
Speaker
And I think that has all been helpful for generating much better quantitative research under myriad of conditions. So much better RCTs were done, much better macro statistics were beginning to develop in countries where there was more of that capacity being developed.
00:29:44
Speaker
And I think it was a good model because it adopted the spirit of qualitative, which is centering the individual or community's experience as a kind of like a lead, a co-lead in the research design process.
00:29:57
Speaker
because it was not driven by a hypo hypothesis that you were testing scientifically, it was driven by what's happening. We don't know what's happening, let's ask people what's happening. I think that's a good example of something that has actually transformed and helped undo a lot of the kind of scattershot, why don't we try this? Why don't we try that sort of approaches to financial inclusion? I think that space is much more thoughtful, much more careful now.
00:30:21
Speaker
And certainly with regards to a lot of the work that has been that kind of realm of activity used to focus on improving the economic conditions for women is done with a lot more thought and with a lot more consideration of community pressures and the role of men in a lot of those spaces. And I think that would have been very, very hard to do had the financial diaries projects not been able to kind of break some ground on that front.
00:30:46
Speaker
That is such an interesting tool. I don't know if you call it a tool or a practice to document like a financial diary. Yeah. I think that can be used in so many more places, like just an open observation by all where it can just be a record.
00:31:02
Speaker
But I really want to know, how did you sense make all that information? And what was the size of that information? I think if you can share some more light on that. Well, I mean, i was just involved in a few implementations of the project. So I was working with researchers trying to tackle this sort of stuff. So yes, it was a lot of information, a lot of data collection, and a lot of work to make sure that people who were participating felt motivated to continue participating.
00:31:27
Speaker
So I think at that time it was unwieldy, but it involved using some of early qualitative analysis tools to look for patterns. yeah There's also a quantitative component because people were collecting actual dollar figures and keeping them in a journal. so good And this is self-reported. So it was a mix of observations that you could time to when people were putting them.
00:31:49
Speaker
I think at the time, we did a good enough job helping make sense of some of this stuff. One way that we kind of tested whether our analysis was yielding the results we wanted was to bring, in some cases, focus groups, our findings back to those communities and say, this is what we're seeing. Does this make sense?
00:32:07
Speaker
And then in many cases, some of the things that we're observing, there's added nuance that said actually thinking about it, this is actually what is going on. So and think that's a good practice. That's something that qualitative research, a lot of participatory action researchers sort of do as a matter of practice.
00:32:22
Speaker
So I think that was good. The data side is like we didn't have the tools that we have now. So I would have loved to do that type of work with a platform like an oil or labs or or another platform to help you manage and structure that data almost before you're collecting it, you you develop a structure so that you can already start making some decisions about what to do with it.
00:32:43
Speaker
That was not something that we had the ability to do at this time at the same sort of scale. Yeah, but hats off to attempting this to the
The Financial Diaries Project
00:32:52
Speaker
team. At the point where there were no tools and still managing, getting that informed decisions essentially from that process. I think that's quite fascinating.
00:33:02
Speaker
Taking a leap from that, because this is one of her project which had the rigor And the intent that even if we don't know what questions to ask, this could lead us with some questions. How do you question to both? Maybe Priyanka, since your work in the previous organizations would have some of these examples.
00:33:20
Speaker
Like how can organizations today translate? One, set that right in intent and then have the ability to translate that data into other.
00:33:32
Speaker
insights? How do you read into this? I wish I could ask this question and you had an answer, but still I'm going to ask this question. Is there like a secret sauce that organizations can use to do this? You know, when you work in communication, there's always a tension between producers and directors because the producers are controlling money and the directors are have vision.
00:33:53
Speaker
yeah In our organization, we always had this tension between the researchers and the program makers or the creative people who were actually designing communication because the researchers would come to us with, you know, here's the results from this research. Here's what we're saying. You know, this is the analysis. This is the report.
00:34:11
Speaker
And inevitably, there is a journey to be traveled from the point of having a research report with results to the point at which it can actually be turned into something that you use in practical design work, implementation of programs, et etc.
00:34:28
Speaker
And that process is where strategy comes in. That's really where you're prioritizing, you're making decisions, you're sense-making beyond whatever sense-making has already happened.
00:34:40
Speaker
You're applying the so what question. So this is the result, this is what we're hearing, so what? What does this mean? How do we travel from where we are here to where we want to be?
00:34:50
Speaker
And that's a process that I think is different for every single organization, depending on who they are and what they do. But I think it's a really, really valuable one because I think all too often we expect, and I think it's an unfair thing to expect, that research results applied directly will give you what you want.
00:35:11
Speaker
And that's not a fair thing because research results also need to then be translated into something else. I'm talking a lot about design, yeah even from sort of from a learning perspective. What are you learning from what the results have said and what are you taking from there? How are you taking this thing forward?
00:35:27
Speaker
That's kind of really where the learning loop, I think, is most valuable. but I think just a follow up on that, because and think what you said is really valuable, like some a research team will come with insights and you might have been involved in the design process, like from a comms lens that I need to know these questions. But only once you have the first set of answers and responses, you realize that, hey, there were more questions.
00:35:50
Speaker
And you're like, hey, these are more insights and suddenly I want to unpack them more. And often people don't see research as longitudinal or like they have the organization of the ability to do like, hey, I can go back and ask this question.
00:36:03
Speaker
And there's this fear, pressure. And I want to use the word anxiety also because it's there because they're like, I don't know how to do this or I don't know how to respond. And that's where all these assumptions come in and you just go with assumptions and they might be a hit or miss.
00:36:19
Speaker
Have you ever dealt with that? How do you deal with that? Is it that big a deal to say that can we do another round? And because everything is funder driven as well, how do you communicate this to the funder and make it all visible that, hey, this is where we are at and we need to do some more testing, questioning? Yeah, I think if something is coming to you yeah on that.
00:36:40
Speaker
I mean, this is again going back to Bihar and to that maternal child health work. We designed a service. It was a mobile health service, an M Health service called Kilkari.
00:36:50
Speaker
And Kilkari was designed based on, you know, what Baby Center does across multiple countries around the world, which is from the time that a woman gets pregnant to the time that her baby is however many years old.
00:37:03
Speaker
Every single week, she and her partner and her family, whoever else, will get information that is related to the stage of pregnancy, what's going on right then, what to expect, you know what should you be looking out for her, etc.
00:37:18
Speaker
Now, how do you take that concept, which is primarily designed for a sophisticated internet-first English-speaking audience, and design that for a rural community that has families very, very limited access to information.
00:37:33
Speaker
Women who have virtually no mobility or agency, and you're translating this into totally different community. Now, when we were starting to design Kilkari, we had already designed and delivered at scale, 40,000 users already, two different mobile health services.
00:37:52
Speaker
One was for that same tool that I was describing earlier for health workers to use with families, and the other one was to train health workers themselves. And we thought that, you know, we've got this done. We've figured this out. We've already launched these two. They're working amazingly. We know how to do this.
00:38:09
Speaker
So we applied all the learning from designing those two services to the design of Kirkari. And we failed. And we failed again. And we failed again. And we failed again.
00:38:20
Speaker
We went through six rounds of user testing. till we actually finally changed our entire design because we realized that we were trying to reach the wrong demographic.
00:38:33
Speaker
So we actually had a design differently going all the way back to square one. We had a design for a different demographic and then retest for that demographic. And it was everything from language to how much information can you provide on the phone in an audio message to a woman who has very little, in those days at least, very little interaction with the mobile phone.
00:38:58
Speaker
she doesn't She doesn't use it on a regular basis. How do you actually break down those barriers? What does that mean? What's the speed of speaking? What's the pitch that the person's voice needs to be at when she's delivering this message?
00:39:13
Speaker
The amount of detail that we had to go into to get this right was quite extraordinary. But that clearly worked because that service then ended up being adopted by the government of India. And it's now a nationwide service that is provided to every single woman who is registered in the government's health system databases.
00:39:35
Speaker
So that's what's possible when you get the design right. That's the kind of scale that you can go up to. I think two takeaways. I think that's what's possible if you get the design
Embracing Failure and Iteration in Research
00:39:44
Speaker
right. Also, I think breaking this stereotype or like stigma around failure is wrong.
00:39:51
Speaker
The idea of failure is to make sure there is a right path that is found after the failure. And if it doesn't, it's not there, maybe another path or i like keep at it. But I think what is also unpacking is that research allows you to fail and research also allows you to then iterate and then try again.
00:40:10
Speaker
it's not ending at, hey, it failed. But I'll also open this up for Samir if you have a counter or an addition to this. And also from the lens of being practical about failure or not, or hey, there's not enough time for it.
00:40:26
Speaker
The world that we work in needs to be much more tolerant of failure. But then i think the tradeoff is it needs to be much better at documenting learning from failure than it currently is.
00:40:39
Speaker
And I think it's because when something fails, there are no incentives on the part of the practitioner side. There's no incentives on the funder side. You think just like organizational behavior, grant managers or whatever, nobody wants to look bad. and And that's partially because no one has figured out so much, like a default thing, is people assume that these are what they call single loop challenges, failures of did we do the plan, as opposed to failures of strategy. And I don't think that many people working in the social space have good language to talk about failures of strategy.
00:41:16
Speaker
And I think that that's a big structural problem. I think that's something that really holds back a lot of innovation in the sector. Sorry, that was a blanket statement. That was a big blanket statement.
00:41:29
Speaker
Yeah, want um like I want to double-click. Okay, please explain this with more ah details. Well, okay. So this is like very textbook economist talking.
00:41:41
Speaker
In a public or private market, there's a disciplining mechanism that is supposed to work not from moral authority. It's supposed to work because it's in everybody's incentives, right? So you invest in research and development because you know that you're going to have to fail a lot to get to where you need to go.
00:41:59
Speaker
You know that you're going to have to fail a lot to get to where you need to go. And if you fail poorly in that you fail, but you hide the reasons why, you're not going to get to where you need to go because you won't know what mistakes you made and why they were mistakes.
00:42:12
Speaker
But if you fail in a way that understands exactly what you did wrong so that you can course correct accordingly, then that is the right way to fail. That is how research and development sort of works.
00:42:23
Speaker
I think in the nonprofit sector, I think about the relationship between funders and implementers. And on the implementer side, the incentives are pretty clear. You need to keep money to keep your operations going, to keep your salary, to keep doing the work that you do going.
00:42:40
Speaker
Unless you have a funder that really understands that research and development and has that kind of risk tolerance, And some do. but I think many funders do understand this because of their kind of private sector background.
00:42:53
Speaker
But for some reason, in the public's mind, work in the social space, there is no tolerance for failure because it's perceived as being wasteful or, of course, it was obvious why something wouldn't work when it didn't work.
00:43:07
Speaker
So how do I put this? We have tolerance for certain people going and flying rockets that don't work. Yeah. And we don't have the same tolerance for trying to do that type of thing.
00:43:21
Speaker
And it's not as spectacular an explosion. And we do have to be mindful of failure when it has unintended consequences on communities. Like, I don't think we should be using them as experiments. But at the same time, yeah we're not going to figure out how to do things better until we have sandbox-like relationships, right?
00:43:39
Speaker
I think the other thing is, There is this mindset, and I think it's not just funders, but a lot of, bottom let's call them actors of a certain intention who try to try to bring what is called an investment mindset to the social sector, which presupposes that we know how to get outcomes and it's all about driving efficiency and that we can just cost-benefit analysis everything.
00:44:09
Speaker
There's a question here. There is tolerance in private sector, but you're saying when it comes to the social sector, suddenly there's an expectation of efficiency. Is it because it's donated money and not just invested money that it returns?
00:44:25
Speaker
Yeah. done I think the thing that's odd about it is that for a funder, there's no real downside to failure. Like a funder doesn't have less money if it's invested in a project that didn't work.
00:44:38
Speaker
It has the money that it's going to have because of whatever money it's going to have. Maybe for government, it's a bit different, but that's a longer accountability chain. But let's say in private philanthropy or whatever, it's just different learning loops and incentive loops.
00:44:53
Speaker
So there's reputational risk for sure, but that is relatively small. And I think, you know, our now outgoing chair of Giving Tuesday, Rob Reif, wrote about a lot of this in some of the work that he's done, which is the case for some of this work is to do things that markets and government can't do in the social space. That's what innovation is, and that's what philanthropy should be supporting, is experimentation that is long run in its nature,
00:45:20
Speaker
not chopped up projects. So if we want to tackle something like, how do we empower women to have a more active and empowering role in economies in rural places?
00:45:32
Speaker
That is a long run series of initiatives, trying things out, studies and actions that would take years to develop the types of results that we want to see.
00:45:45
Speaker
And I think many funders do understand that that's the time scale we need to be looking at for structural change. Unfortunately, I think there are also many funders who think it's just a matter of implementing various projects. And I'm not just saying philanthropy. I think some governments also run their programs a little bit like this.
00:46:03
Speaker
So I think the challenge to solve is like, how do we get at these things from a structural perspective? So that failure is more embedded in how we've understood work in the social sector, whoever does it.
00:46:16
Speaker
Thanks for that, Samir. And I think while it is a different dimension to this whole conversation, but I feel it's deeply linked to what we're talking about because then it allows that research to come in at the right time and to be more relaxed with, hey, what are we getting in for? But I think, Priyanka, do you...
00:46:38
Speaker
What do you think the sector needs? What is a so say a suggestion, guide for, I don't know I can say funders, but I'll just call it the sector around this topic, around being able to accept failures.
00:46:51
Speaker
It's the right thing to do. I think plus a thousand to everything that Samir said, I could not agree more. I was just reflecting while I was listening to him that, and I was trying to find something that somebody had shared about how different sectors are so much more accepting of failure and failure rates with startups and yes medical innovation and all of that compared to the acceptability of failure within the nonprofit sector.
00:47:19
Speaker
And it's considered as a win. Even if you fail, it's considered as a win. Like, hey, you fail, that's amazing. it You pat it on the back for a failure because you're like, hey, you're going to learn from that for whatever reasons. Yeah.
00:47:31
Speaker
Unfortunately, I can't find that. So I will just tell you one of my main reflections is that in the nonprofit sector, I think we all talk about research in this catch-all sort of MLE, MEL, MERL, choose your
Implementing Learning Metrics for Impact
00:47:44
Speaker
acronym of choice. But there's always an L in there.
00:47:47
Speaker
There's always an L that I don't think anybody actually does. Because I think it's usually a monitoring set of indicators that you're passing off as learning indicators.
00:48:00
Speaker
Or at best, you're sort of doing some impact evaluation or assessments or whatever it is to be able to tell the world about the work that you're doing, because that's what drives your economic engine.
00:48:12
Speaker
yeah But I think if we were all as a sector, funders, nonprofits, intermediaries, everybody, if there was a greater push to say, what would it look like if we doubled down on true learning metrics, on really making sure that we implement what that L really looks like, we think about the learning metrics.
00:48:34
Speaker
metrics that are relevant for us and figure out systems that are going to help us gather that information and make sense of it so that we're actually learning as we go and implementing, reapplying that learning back into the work that we're doing.
00:48:49
Speaker
So I think there's a conversation to be had about what does learning actually look like and what are we doing about it right now? Yeah, I think there's neither another podcast around research and learning, but If you both had to share one example, if that's coming to you, about when research and learning and this whole M&E and L being done right.
00:49:16
Speaker
So there's a couple of things that struck me. one is sort of where I think my team got it right. But there wasn't like a heavy duty, we've got to research the hell out of this thing to be able to learn.
00:49:30
Speaker
It went back to listening to communities. So this is a project that was about prevention of bonded labor. Again, working with tribal communities in what you might describe as media dark regions. So tribal communities in the heart of the forest areas in Madhya Pradesh, Dharakand and Chhattisgarh.
00:49:47
Speaker
And the project was really clear. It was about gathering stories from the community, turning those into audio content that was then going to be a stimulus, not broadcast, but used in discussion settings in the community.
00:50:02
Speaker
to actually drive discussion about labor practices, protecting yourself and so on. We had a the missed call feature is a big thing, right? it used to be at least in India at one stage, and I'm talking about 2014. So we decided to build in a missed call feature into this show so that people could call us to give us their opinions on the show.
00:50:23
Speaker
yeah And that was fine because we had all these people calling us to say, i love Buddhiram and I love this show and here's my song and will you include in the show and all of this stuff. Until we got our first distress call.
00:50:37
Speaker
And it was this mother who said, I've just heard your show and I think my sons are in trouble. And threw us completely because we were a media organization primarily.
00:50:50
Speaker
We're not a rescue and rehab organization. So what do you do in that situation? I mean, kudos to the team because they reacted super fast and the decision making was really, really fantastic because they went to partners who were already working on rescue and rehabilitation on labor rights issues in those communities.
00:51:10
Speaker
And together, they went to the district administration. Now, here's where the learning bit was really interesting, because they had decided early on that just working with community was not going to be enough.
00:51:26
Speaker
They needed to work with district district administration and they needed to work with local media to talk at various levels and to sort of drive discussion at various levels around labor practices and protecting communities from bonded labor issues.
00:51:40
Speaker
And so when this thing happened, they were able to quickly bring together all of these different groups of people to start to solve this problem. And they saw all that this bringing together all community, district administration, media, nonprofits that were working there, there was something really powerful happening in that moment.
00:52:02
Speaker
And they started to design different ways for the program to go in to actually allow that to happen. It wasn't part of the log frame. It wasn't something that we'd committed to the donor. It wasn't something that we even had necessarily the resources to do.
00:52:19
Speaker
But it was listening deeply to community and to what community needs were that meant that we ended up with this additional part of the program that created a platform for communities to talk directly to people who made decisions for their communities. So the top cop and the labor commissioner and the agricultural commissioner and all of these people.
00:52:42
Speaker
And you suddenly had this opportunity for people to talk directly to each other. Normally, you're thinking about a prevention of bonded labor project. How do you get to that place? And only happens if you're listening.
00:52:54
Speaker
It only happens if you're listening. Wow, that was so valuable. There is just so much I have got out of this conversation. and I just want to share my key learnings and takeaways from this.
00:53:09
Speaker
ah One big one being the need to marry, call and con. Quantitative methods show patterns and qualitative methods explain them.
00:53:19
Speaker
And together, there's a need to offer those rich and more grounded insights. The second one being the balancing rigor and agility. I think that's a very, very big one. How do you balance academic rigor and real world adaptability through thoughtful sampling and structured analysis matter.
00:53:40
Speaker
But then how do you respond to adaptability and what's happening on the ground? And what are the conversations that are happening on the ground? And how do you marry those two approaches?
00:53:53
Speaker
The third one being my favorite, which is embracing failure as a part of the process. And failure isn't something to avoid. It's something to include. And that early missteps are feedback. And it's important to include that in our sector, in this impact space, because we need to be more prepared for failure and tolerant for failure.
00:54:15
Speaker
So we can grow, grow faster and grow better. And the last, probably the most important one is the centering real voices, like making that as the core part of everything. Like, how do we put people and their lived experiences at the heart of our work?
00:54:35
Speaker
I think that's something really important and something to reflect on. So while there's so much that I have gained, I would want our listeners to get this last point also answered. So before we wrap up this episode, Priyankan Samir, I have a last question.
00:54:57
Speaker
oh What do you think is the future of call research? How do you see research evolving in the future? And how do you see it evolving with technology specifically?
00:55:11
Speaker
um right I think the big thing is around the digitalization of the world. And that means two things. I think, first of all, there's the digitalization of research processes, the use of ai for example, for analysis to streamline, do things more quickly,
00:55:29
Speaker
And there are a whole bunch of set of concerns about what is being lost, what are the dangers. Knowing what we know about how AI works fundamentally as a technology, what are the things that we need to put in place to make sure that biases are not reinforced through that process. So whole bunch of series of questions. i think a lot of people, that's more of a technical question and something where, you know, how do we use AI to do the efficiency part, but then how do we put checks and balances on any research process to make sure that we are not also just AI-ing, outsourcing the thinking around AI?
00:56:05
Speaker
So that's one piece. We're also in a world where there's going to be, like people talk about big data. I think what is less talked about is big qualitative data. Like social media platforms, large scale social media conversations.
00:56:18
Speaker
These are big sources of qualitative insight and data. And I think doing research, not just on those virtual spaces, but in those virtual spaces, that's going to be a whole challenge.
00:56:32
Speaker
There was a conversation for a while around, well, there is a conversation about decolonization of research processes and ethical shifts, right? And that conversation needs to continue, obviously.
00:56:45
Speaker
And I think one of the things I'm always curious about, I mean, the centering the community is an important part of that decolonization process. But then the question I think that will invariably come up is like, which part of the community? Because there are absolutely power structures in communities that are invisible and maybe not even talked about within communities.
00:57:05
Speaker
So how do we triangulate around that concern? I think, you know, it doesn't take too long for issues about relationships between men and women or people from certain cast or whatever, you know, like lots of interesting issues to be exploring.
00:57:19
Speaker
And then I think this issue around reciprocity of research and bringing research back to communities, I think that's super important. Again, my question is, which part of the community are you bringing it back to? And I think this was more of an issue when research was done by you know academics coming from the West and coming in and saying, I talked to the community and I came back to the community and I'm sure there's lots of nuance that was missed.
00:57:44
Speaker
And I think maybe the third thing is just there's already a rise of multimodal research. So again, we're talking about the digital aspect of it, but I think interdisciplinary collaboration is something that is going to grow.
00:57:56
Speaker
i think you see it sort of growing in environmental studies. I feel like that's where it's it seems like it's sort of going. But like other fields, other areas, economics, like there's all sorts of funding that's been available for some of this interdisciplinary collaboration. And then how does that become a conversation not just about interdisciplinarization, but the insights that are yielded from this? So how do we begin to talk about that work?
00:58:18
Speaker
I think those are a few things I'd be interested. interested And then very, very finally, everybody in the future, I think, is going to have to show research impact much more than they have currently. And again, this goes back to this question around the intent to be academic researchers and practitioner researchers.
00:58:34
Speaker
I think everybody who gets funding to do this work in the future is going to have to show more tangibly how it's used in practice beyond the people who are doing it and the people participating it.
00:58:47
Speaker
on the future of qualitative research and the things that Samir laid out, my big question in all of that is where does the social sector fit?
00:58:59
Speaker
And learning from what we saw in you know the Giving Tuesday Data Commons' AI Readiness Survey, that demonstrates very clearly how the nonprofit sector in India certainly is well behind the curve when it comes to the adoption of technology and AI.
00:59:16
Speaker
using of technology for research, et cetera, and the conversations we've just had and the things that Samir has pointed out, I feel like it's so far away from the consideration set of social sector leaders.
00:59:31
Speaker
that I worry that it's just going to widen the gap even more. And I think there's work to be done to think about, you know, what needs to be done to make sure that the social sector is not getting left behind yeah and doesn't have the tools that it needs to be able to really figure out how to cope with very, very, very rapid digitization of the world that is happening, whether we like it or not.
00:59:55
Speaker
I think what Priyanka had said ah about if you're thinking about community and if you're thinking about rigor and if you're thinking about what it is like to participate in a focus group where other members of your community are, and you're thinking about how open is someone likely to be in that sort of forum when they deal with the community every day of their lives.
01:00:16
Speaker
Yeah. I think Parakeh well said it. If you're thinking about it, you can think creatively about the potential solutions. And an example I had heard of, I was not participating in this, was there was a um ah project studying the distribution of funds in Ghana related to social services, which was supposed to be funded through oil and gas extraction.
01:00:36
Speaker
And there wanted to be some sort of assessment of what did the experience look like from rural communities that were experienced as how is it affecting women or whatever. And one creative approach taken by researchers that they left small devices with particular members of the community. They didn't make a big deal about it. and they said, every time it occurs to you, these are five questions, go and record what your answer might be.
01:01:00
Speaker
And apparently the comparison between what people were individually saying And again, a lot of press had to be built for people to be able to speak more openly. it didn't happen instantly.
01:01:12
Speaker
But over time, yeah the nuances and details about what life in the village was like, what life in the village was, when the experience of having funding arrived, how it was distributed, became much more clear through this process by creating spaces for people to participate in the qualitative research community, a qualitative research project at the community level, but as individuals.
01:01:34
Speaker
generated very, very different results. And so that's the type of creativity I think that's needed as we expand on this frontier, that we need to be mindful of community power dynamics and things that are invisible to even communities themselves and create spaces for some of those ah things. And so that was the only point I wanted to make.
01:01:54
Speaker
Thank you so much, Prayag and Samir, for joining us. There was so much to learn from this conversation. It's been one of those episodes I know I'll be coming back to more than once.
01:02:07
Speaker
So thank you for your time and thank you for all the effort that you made to make this happen. First of all, I wanted to thank Yashina and Abra and Olya Labs for creating space for us to have this conversation. And I hope this is interesting to whoever has listened to it. But I mean, I too am unsurprised that we had fun conversation because i know we did some prep.
01:02:27
Speaker
I think what was surprising to me, a lot has changed from when we first started having this conversation, certainly where I'm located. And I think it's an opportunity for a lot of people to take a step back and think about Not just how we do things, but why we do things.
01:02:45
Speaker
And so I thank you guys for making that space available to myself and Priyanka. Yeah, that's all I have to say. It was a fun conversation. Yeah, to be let me echo that and say thank you so much for having us.
01:02:57
Speaker
It's always fun to talk to co-conspirators ah hard but and sort of kind of really explore what the state of the world is, I guess. Thank you for creating that space for us to be able to share so openly and have such a wide-ranging conversation.
01:03:15
Speaker
And that's the episode. Today, I want to leave you with a question. What's a decision you're making that might just change if you had the story behind the numbers?
01:03:27
Speaker
Give it some thought and thank you for listening. Do check out our other episodes in this series. Our first season focuses on qualitative data and research and we had a fantastic lineup of guests.
01:03:40
Speaker
If you found this valuable, please subscribe and share it with a friend who might find our conversation interesting. And if you'd like to learn more, you can visit our website, getdots.in, or write to us at hello at ooloylabs.in, and follow us on LinkedIn for updates.
01:03:58
Speaker
Until next time, I'm Yashna, signing off.