Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Market that Moves America, a podcast from the National Center for the Middle Market. The center is the leading source of knowledge, leadership and innovative research on the middle market economy. Throughout our podcast, we will feature middle market leaders and stakeholders to hear their real world perspectives on trends and emerging issues.
Speaker: Welcome to The Market That Moves America. My name is Doug Farron, Executive Director of the National Center for the Middle Market, located at The Ohio State University Fisher College of Business.
Speaker: I'm really excited about today's episode where we're going to be diving into how middle market leaders think about using data, data quality, the things that it can be used as an advantage to help drive business growth.
Speaker: And in order to do that, I'm pleased to welcome Martin Wise, who's the executive chairman and founder of RELPRO. RELPRO is a B2B data platform that aids in business development, primarily for financial and professional services companies. So Martin, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker: Doug, thanks. It's great. It's great to be here. Thank you. So a couple of areas I want to cover with you today, but let's just dive into, you know, kind of the the broad level overview about data.
Speaker: i mean, clearly the NCMM being a research center, we know all about the power of great data and the insights that it can provide. And then, you know, ways you can use that to to leverage ah for competitive decision making and so forth. and And I know you share a lot of those same thoughts. So from your expect from your perspective, I guess, tell us a little bit about RelPro and how that all started, but kind of this whole, you know, the importance of data from where you sit.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. No, thank you. As you say, it's sort of been my life ah since I founded the company back in 2009. Yeah, there's a there's a phrase from back that time, back in 06, I guess, that data is the new oil.
Speaker: um And it was coined by a British mathematician back in 2006. But it's been the case throughout those 20 years, I think, and even more the case today with AI, that um that that data is indeed the new oil and and all the powerful tools to build and analyze and surface insights so that we have today.
Speaker: RollPro, and as you said, I was the founder, I'm just getting still used to calling myself executive chair. I was the CEO for many, many years until the beginning of this year. um but the But our database covers every company in the US with more than a million in revenue.
Speaker: and and all the people that make decisions at those companies. And that's a lot of oil for anybody who's researching and building businesses with middle market companies. And obviously, it's how we got to meet in the first place as well.
Speaker: um Our clients include... 70% of the top 50 banks across the country and many other providers of financial and professional services to middle market companies. And we love working in the middle market, yeah as we all know, the engine the engine room of the U.S. economy and to partnering with you all at at NCMM.
Speaker: I founded the company that became Rolpro, as i said, in 2009 based on experience that I gained running a a client coverage team across Merrill Lynch and across the U.S.,
Speaker: and And I saw firsthand the value of data about senior executives and companies and relationship connections and how valuable that could be.
Speaker: And the mission when I founded RolePro was to create a data platform and software solution that could help people in business development roles to gain insights and save them time as they build relationships with companies and senior executives.
Speaker: um And that's just what we've done. um And in fact, it's very ah timely. We've just announced this morning that Rolper has been ranked in the Inc 5000 list of fastest growing companies in the US for the sixth. Yes, the sixth straight here.
Speaker: um um which is quite an achievement and a huge shout out to our clients and partners and and our investors and our amazing team at Rollpro. So yeah, there's been a lot going on.
Speaker: Yeah, congratulations on that. i I'm really happy to hear that. um what Why is it so difficult to find information, particularly as we think about middle market companies? i mean, I know some of the challenges that we often face, but ah like as you described your data set,
Speaker: I mean, the the um the the type of insights and information that you have can be very, very powerful. Why is that such a challenge? It's actually, it's a great question because when I when i started, when I left Merrill Lynch, most most of my work at Merrill have been in in the world of ah large global public companies and and how to connect board members and senior executives and so on. And it was really, in part, a bit of a twist of fate that in 2008, the financial crisis and so on that my attention was taken away from the large public companies and investment banking who all had their own things to worry about back in the financial crisis. And and I started working with um smaller private equity and wealth management firms who were interested in smaller and mid-market private companies. And
Speaker: And I found at that point that, as you say exactly, Doug, yeah it's really tricky because the the problems are more fundamental. but In public companies, the data is all available, but in private companies, there's so much data that isn't available.
Speaker: And I began to realize that you know something that we could do to serve to pursue our mission and to serve our clients was actually to surface and corral and bring together information about those smaller private companies that are so hard to find. um So yes, that's we're all about overcoming the challenge of having access to that data.
Speaker: Yeah. And you know it's it's one thing to have access to just mountains of data and information, but there's also a this distinction between what's actually useful and what is not. how do you How do you think about that as you have built RELPRO over the years?
Speaker: Yeah, you know, yeah, useful information. It's interesting because the and I think particularly topical, right, because um ah a few years ago, everybody was talking about the power of big data and some people seem to translate that into um more data is better.
Speaker: um And now with Gen.ai, sometimes everybody seems to increase the feeling of information overload because all of a sudden you you you ask a simple question and and you get the answer in sort of a long college essay kind of prose answer. And it's it's even more to deal with. um And It's good to have lots of data, but only if you can synthesize it and deal deliver it succinctly and in context. And exactly to your point, that's what RolePro seeks to do.
Speaker: um the yeah the I'm reminded of the golden rules of data, which really is as true to for us today as it's always been, around that In order for data to be useful, it needs to be accurate. It needs to be complete, unique, no duplicates, um consistent, relevant to the business purpose at hand. And then last but not least, yeah useful information is timely and it drives um it records stay current. And also um the data reflects market updates with valuable triggers and signals as well.
Speaker: Yeah, those are some really great descriptors on how do you define useful data? I think that was a great list. As you talk to different business leaders, you know, as you were building this up, in addition to some of those things about misconception, maybe, hey, I just need as much data as I can get. Are there other kind of misconceptions that you see out there from businesses as they think about kind of data usage in general?
Speaker: Yeah, I think you're right that yeah there is still that big misconception somehow that more data automatically means better decisions, which is definitely not the case. um And I think the, know, people are seeing now that just letting letting an AI engine loose on on data from the web doesn't guarantee ah the right answer. In fact, quite the opposite sometimes. um And as you say, raw data isn't the same as reliable intelligence.
Speaker: um i think the I think the other misconception that's out there, and it's maybe becoming an old story now, is how, is the notion that data and AI will replace human interaction. And certainly in our In our world of financial and professional services and all the clients that we're serving there, business growth is still fundamentally, at the end of the day, relationship-driven.
Speaker: And data and AI are huge enablers and time savers for for our clients, our bankers and entrepreneurs. professional advisors. But at the end of the day, middle market business owners, I'm one of them, and you know, lots of them, Doug, um we we still want and need a relationship with a human as part of the service. So um AI and data are enablers. They're not the and not they're not the end of the, they don't they don't take out the human element.
Speaker: Yeah. So let's kind of build on that because I was going to pivot into the relationship between having very useful information and then help driving growth. Because as we've seen over the years, that tends to be one of the big priorities for middle market companies. And so i like this, you know, how you were linking it to the relationship aspect of it.
Speaker: i mean, how does the, let's just use rail, I mean, how does this information help drive and create or maybe strengthen some of those relationships that are so critical? Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's um there's so many examples of how the data that we have is helping companies to grow. um And as as I mentioned, that's exactly how I, so that was the driver at the beginning. That's why I got involved in this business to help people to grow their business. And and so ah for Rollpro today, that's about helping our clients to identify new new company prospects, maybe based on a recent announcement or an upcoming financing requirement. um
Speaker: it's It's about highlighting executives in new roles who, you who want to succeed and they want services to grow and have an impact. um and And it's also about helping a relationship manager, you know, who maybe has got 200 clients in his or her portfolio.
Speaker: know, which of those clients would appreciate a call most this week based on intense signals and things like that that that betray a particular need or interest? Right. So all of those things help for us to to cause people to build relationships or have interactions at times when maybe it's the most valuable.
Speaker: yeah Those are some examples. Yeah. and And you probably know this as as much as any business owner, but as as your company grows, the decisions and the information that you either need or have access to can oftentimes become much more complex.
Speaker: and And we see this time and time again, a $10 million dollar lower middle market company has a much different set of decision making criteria than a hundred million or 200, $300 million dollar company.
Speaker: So describe to us for a little bit, like, how do you ensure that all of this information that is so valuable and time, like, how is it kept up to date, making sure that it's accurate?
Speaker: Because again, like outdated information, not as all at all as useful as, you know, the latest and greatest. So how do you go about doing that? Yeah, I think that the two two two things you you talked about, yeah, organizations becoming more complex and how to how to manage data within that. I think part of it for any business leader. Right. Forget the data for a second. It's about having your organization aligned.
Speaker: ah to the purpose in hand and and morphing the organizational structure to do that. And certainly when it comes to to growth, whether it be for our company or for any other um middle market companies that I work with, the very key thing, I think, is organizationally separating the distinction between people who are out there getting new business, getting new client logos, as it were, um from the people who are also looking after existing customers where maybe the focus is more about retention and and growth of those relationships. um I say that because the organizational construct, I think, is is very is very important. And actually, without the right organizational construct, it's hard to get the data to to sync and be properly properly used.
Speaker: um Beyond that, you talked about how to make sure it's timely and what have you. I think it's... I think the data it's important to have a view on um on what the data resources are that are available. You talked earlier about just the sheer amount of data, but I think it's really instructive, almost whatever size of company you are, to have a person or a team in your business to take a look at what are the different types of data and sources of data that are available. um yeah Sometimes that can be obviously a distinction between sort of internal data and external data and where do you get it. But it could also be because, in my experience, very often there may be data that's being it that emerges out of one part of your business that actually is very valuable to drive growth or activity out of another part of your business. and so
Speaker: It's sometimes important to to or it is important in my mind to have someone who really thinks about the data assets and the data um the data that's being produced and is flowing through your through your business. And that way, particularly ah for our position as an external a data provider, you know,
Speaker: It's our whole mission and job to provide timely, accurate information to our clients. That's what we do. And we can therefore save our clients a lot of effort and and of trying to do that themselves. but But I think it all starts from having a sort of a little bit of an overall overarching view of what are the data needs and assets and ah and and signals that are going through your business? And then where are you going to get them from? And and partner with the best people then to to create the timely, accurate information that you're talking about.
Speaker: Sure, sure. Yeah. And you mentioned this idea of having the right organizational construct. um So as yeah as you see companies in different stages of growth, is it fairly easy for you to spot when a company doesn't have that in place?
Speaker: ah um Yeah, you know, the, ah yes, it is. And um I think, you know, I mean, for for us as ah as a vendor partner ah and data a partner, um yeah, there's a privilege really of being able then to work with clients and to and to see how they address the question of data and data usage within their organizations. And to be honest with you, that's,
Speaker: That's changing. it's it's some And it's not just about stage of growth, not just about size of organization. it's um you know We see as AI comes along that people get to realize the importance of data. And we see now that we used to, yeah our main points of contact used to be people who are directly involved with sales and sales operations. And that's still very much the case to today.
Speaker: But we spend more time also now talking with people who are being appointed as head of data and analytics or head of AI or yeah or these types of roles where it's really all about getting their arms around the data for the company. So, yeah, we see we see different companies at different stages of of evolution.
Speaker: um And that's partly how I can... definitely affirm the benefit of having somebody or a team who are thinking about data as ah as ah as an asset. ah Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker: Well, that's a great segue into AI because I did want to ask you a couple questions about it. You mentioned it a few times already in our conversation, but yeah Are you viewing AI as a as a threat, as an accelerator? like It sounds to me like there are certainly lots of benefits, but there are also some risks associated. So describe that a little bit for us in the world that you live in.
Speaker: Yeah. and So, yes, in the world of technology and um software as a service, data as a service that I'm in, it's it's absolutely a thing. um we're We're fortunate for Elpro that um people don't just buy us for our software, they really buy us for our data and AI needs data. um and And so, yeah, we but there has been a period over the course of the last year where, you know, the market in general, some people have referred to it as SaaSpocalypse, right? the the The AI has sort of um
Speaker: has undermined the principle of companies whose value was really based on the fact that they could write software and software code and so on. I think some of those concerns were overdone. Certainly in our case, um yeah the fact that really underlying RollPro is really a data asset and you can get it it together this through software or APIs or or AI and MCP servers and so on means that actually AI is good for Relpro and Relpro is good for AI because we can yeah we we can get our data into now more places. um
Speaker: And that's that's a good thing for us as a company. We've certainly seen more growth as a result. um It's good for our clients as well. Yeah, yeah. And yeah as we think specifically about middle market companies,
Speaker: in this latest wave of our middle market indicator, we saw ah just a tremendous leap from ai as somewhat of a pilot and a test to now where nine out of 10 companies are saying that they're implementing it and using it on a daily basis in some part of the business.
Speaker: yeah um you mentioned You mentioned some of the opportunities for Relpro because I do agree, like AI is a great tool, but it needs good data to be fed into it and and for it to access to provide you know some of these benefits. So are there any other you know specific opportunities or maybe risks that you see around AI as a tool in general?
Speaker: Well, I think um i think as on the opportunity side of the ledger, i'm I'm most excited. And I think for business leaders as a whole, I'm most excited about the way in which the AI assistants and agentic workflows connected to MCP servers and whatever, um is creating like a new wave of democratization, giving accessibility to data across the business um and putting data and insights into even more people's hands, not constrained by do they have a license to use a particular UI um or so on.
Speaker: You know, it'll date me a little bit. I'm not sure. I think, Doug, probably you remember this period. But, I mean, to me, it's very similar to like the late 90s, actually, where... where web browsers were first invented. um And all of a sudden, people started to use yeah Netscape and Internet Explorer and whatever, and they could tap into the world of intelligence on the Internet.
Speaker: um But, you know, so that that's now, the MCP server linkages and the copilots Claude's and clads and and other ways to access AI is is creating yeah many more ways for people across the organization to tap into data. And I think that's a, that's a great thing.
Speaker: um Yeah. i think I think the, to, to continue the parallel that on the risk side, you know, i remember when the, when, yeah when the internet was first launched, you know, it was, um,
Speaker: yeah there were a ma You sat at a screen with it with a web browser. there were um you you could do anything, but but you could also so you could waste a lot of time. or But the most valuable uses of that of the internet came when you had a real thing to do, a real question to ask, a real business purpose to pursue. And then you um and then you would tap into it and get an answer. And I and i think, therefore, yeah the the big misconception at the moment is simply that, well, giving everybody a co-pilot license or whatever constitutes, you transformational change on its own. I don't think that's the case.
Speaker: ah And it's really important that we do some do experimentation, which people are doing, but it's equally important. um yeah Constant experimentation on its own is a very inefficient way to run a company.
Speaker: And it's really essential to ah have AI initiative leaders who kind of then distill the most valuable use cases and then deploy the AI solutions to address those opportunities.
Speaker: Yeah, this may be a very, very difficult question to answer, given how quickly this technology is changing. but But what else do you see in the next two to three years that might become kind of the dominant theme around AI? Do you think it's the it's the rise of agentic and setting up agents to do all these work? I mean, is there are there other things that you see in the future?
Speaker: to your point, it's moving it is moving very quick, but I think at the same time, it's moving very quick, but but the there's this the the quicker things move, the more there'll be a lag between the the the talking about it and the getting the results from it. And and think so me focused on getting results from it over the next two years, I think it's the it's the agentic side that is so that is so exciting because that's the way that you can really bring both efficiencies to workflows in new ways, but also the way in which you can get data to people that never had it before.
Speaker: um So I think that's the most exciting theme still. Okay. okay Well, we typically like to end these episodes with some advice. and Many of our audience members are middle market owners or business leaders. So I really have two two questions for you, Martin. One would be, you know if you were advising middle market owner or CEO what What would you encourage them to ask their own team as they look at the quality of information they have at their disposal across the business?
Speaker: where where Where should they look? yeah I think the... i would So my my advice, based on all the various organizations that we work with, um is i would start with a middle market leader and and say, who who in your organization is responsible for ensuring the quality of data in your company?
Speaker: and And hopefully you don't get a sort rabbit in the headlights kind of a response. But the reality is that unless you can really... put that monkey on someone's back in terms of data quality and data stewardship, um you've got a tricky task ahead because if you, ultimately, if you have a fragmented and disorganized approach to managing data, you'll never have the high quality data to run your business on.
Speaker: um So i think it does start with who who's who's responsible in your organization for for data for data quality and for data stewardship.
Speaker: um The other thing I think is um the importance of trying to distill out some of the very key elements data use cases that that can be most powerful. it's It's so, again, AI can lead to a temptation to try to boil the ocean and, again, just have mass experimentation going on. But it's really important to to to draw some or some themes and organizational constructs out of the experimentation and to have um um and to have people surface value the most valuable use cases and then make sure those get done.
Speaker: um you know So experimentation is a good thing. I think we used to call it prototyping in the past, whatever, but um but it's really important to ah yeah to distill out of that a handful of really powerful use cases that can then drive more enterprise-wide results. And and i yeah I see organizations doing that. And it and again, it does require that you appoint <unk>pons you you designate responsibilities and accountabilities to certain individuals to do that distillation and deployment process.
Speaker: Yeah. Final question. If you could change one thing about how business leaders think about data, what would that be? very Yeah. um Very simply, very simply, don't think about data as a cost. Think about it as a strategic asset and don't think about third party source data as an expense.
Speaker: Think about it as a very cost effective way of outsourcing a a nightmare of a process, which is about how to gather and synthesize and pull together data that is valuable for your business that would that would otherwise tie up internal resources. um that's yeah i mean that's how we That's how we work as ah as a strategic partner with with our clients and yeah and and the whole RELPRO team are exactly focused on that type of activity. so yeah Well, you've been kind enough to give us some access to RELPRO and I can say firsthand that that is certainly the case. It saved us a lot of time.
Speaker: and energy as we've gone out yeah to look at some information around middle market companies. So certainly appreciate that. Well, thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to do it. It's a good example of ah of ah of a mutually beneficial partnership that helps helps both of us. So we we appreciate that, Doug, and it's nice to work with you and your team.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's been great having you on, Martin. I really enjoyed this conversation and yeah looking forward to continuing our partnership going forward. Thank you. Same here.
Speaker: So thanks everybody for joining us today. If you want to learn more about RELPRO, um you can visit their site, which relpro.com. And we look forward to talking to you next time. Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for listening to The Market That Moves America. Never miss a new episode by subscribing anywhere podcasts can be found. You can also subscribe to our email newsletter at middlemarketcenter.org.
