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CISOs: Empathy for Neurodivergence Required with Wendy Nather, Head of Advisory CISOs, Cisco
98 Plays1 year ago
Dr. Stacy Thayer chats with Wendy about how CISOs and security leaders can support neurodivergence in the workplace and how awareness and empathy can be your best leadership tools. Contact us here: https://netography.com/contact/ #Netography
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Transcript
Introduction to Cyber Psych Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Cyber Psych, an Autography podcast where we talk with industry professionals about the human side of technology, how it relates to the field of security, and how it impacts the overall business. I'm your host, Dr. Stacey Thayer. I'm a cyber psychologist and senior manager of research and engagement at Autography.
Meet Wendy Nather: Security & Neurodiversity Expert
00:00:31
Speaker
So I'm here today with special guest, Wendy Nather. Wendy leads the advisory CISO team at Cisco. She's also served as a CISO in both the public and private sectors. She's been an industry analyst.
00:00:42
Speaker
is the co-author of the Cloud Security Rules and has numerous accolades that reflect absolutely just how awesome she is. And if you've been lucky enough also to attend one of her talks with me in person, you know, she has an incredible amount of experience and knowledge in just about every area of the security industry.
Personal Journey with Neurodivergence
00:00:58
Speaker
But today, she's here to talk about something that's near and dear to her heart, which is neurodiversity in the security industry, which is a topic I'm also really excited to talk with her about. So welcome, Wendy. We're happy to have you here.
00:01:10
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you, Lacey. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. Ah, so if you could start off by just sharing your experience with neurodivergence and what it was about this topic that when we first started talking about it, got you excited about it and it's near and dear to your heart and experience. I'd love to hear more about your experience with it.
00:01:34
Speaker
Well, you know, we've gained so much more awareness and knowledge and understanding of neurodivergence in the last, you know, I want to say 10 years or so. But before that, well, I grew up with neurodivergent people in my family. I married somebody who was neurodivergent. My kids are neurodivergent. And I discovered while getting them diagnosed in my 40s that I'm also neurodivergent.
00:02:01
Speaker
So there's just so much that I've lived through and experienced and tried to learn, both for my kids and for myself and for my colleagues, that I think it's a rich topic that we absolutely need to talk about more. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Understanding Neurodivergence: Spectrum & Empathy
00:02:20
Speaker
And what I've noticed that's been interesting is when we look at what neurodivergence
00:02:26
Speaker
is, right? Neurotypical versus neurodivergence or not, and this understanding that the brain works in different ways. So when we talk about neurodivergence being ADHD, OCD, being on the
00:02:40
Speaker
autism spectrum or I mean, really any of it. And I always tend to see neurodivergence as a spectrum that all of us, that we all have a little OCD, we all have a little ADHD. I mean, not to say that not everybody's diagnosable and that there's certainly the diagnosis of it, but that
00:03:01
Speaker
It's something that everybody can at least on some level empathize with to be able to understand and kind of reach out and bridge the gap between an individual who is diagnosed, neurodivergent or not. Yeah, and you're right. It's a spectrum or kind of a constellation and there's so much overlap between the different symptoms. There's some things that tend to cluster together where you see one, you see another one.
00:03:29
Speaker
One of the most important things i've had to do to explain to my kids is they try to understand themselves is to say. You know the labels are not as important there a way of trying to capture a constellation of symptoms.
00:03:43
Speaker
But depending on what you find out about yourself and where you fall, they might change the label and say, well, now we think it's this, or you responded to this medication, so therefore you're now this. And I try to explain to them that it's
00:04:02
Speaker
You know, they can't take the label for the whole truth because we, you know, as adults are still trying to figure all this out.
Societal & Familial Impacts of Neurodivergence
00:04:10
Speaker
And we're just trying to cast different nets on it to try to capture it and understand it ourselves. But it doesn't mean that they're trapped within the net. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah.
00:04:20
Speaker
Well, I think actually human society today, I mean, there's all sorts of things, all sorts of labels, right? Are you Facebook official? Are you in a relationship? What is it? How do we label anything right now when things are shifting?
00:04:38
Speaker
When I was younger, and so for me, I was ADHD, and that didn't really even exist as a label. I was just that annoying kid that the teachers hated who clicked her pens all the time, or chewed on her fingers, or whatever it was, that one of these things is not like the other, and that one thing was always me. But there was no label for it, just the experience.
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah. And, and I understand that for some people, a label comes with a certain amount of validation. Yeah. So you can say, Oh, it's not just me. And, and that's where a lot of advocates for neurodivergence say, you know, it's not, it's not just you. It's the world is designed in a way that makes it difficult for you to function in it, but it's not necessarily your fault. So that's another really important message that, you know, I think we need to get out there.
00:05:31
Speaker
for people, that a lot of this where we, and this is just my opinion, you're the professional, but my own experience is that a lot of the neurodivergence shows up in the difficulty in matching or aligning or syncing between
00:05:54
Speaker
a person in an environment or two people. And you start noticing it when we sort of expect a certain amount of synchronization to just happen.
Communication Challenges: Neurodivergent vs Neurotypical
00:06:05
Speaker
When we talk about empathy, we imagine that we really know how somebody else feels. But it's very clear when I'm talking with my kid who is on the autism spectrum
00:06:16
Speaker
that things can go horribly, horribly wrong. Even though I think that I'm explaining something in a way that most people would understand, they may completely misinterpret it. For example, it's not that autistic people don't have empathy or that they don't
00:06:40
Speaker
you know, they're not upset when they upset somebody, they're at they care deeply, they they absolutely do. But and my kid can read me and read my emotions. But the problem is that they can't kind of reverse engineer it and figure out exactly why I'm feeling that way. That's where it's difficult for them. They may completely misinterpret why I'm feeling that way. So it's been painful for me as a parent,
00:07:07
Speaker
to realize that kind of natural bonding thing that mothers are supposed to have with their kids didn't happen. And I didn't know for many, many years why it didn't happen that way. And it's still problematic for me, but it means we have to do a lot of extra explicit work to try to synchronize in places where those gaps are.
00:07:32
Speaker
When I was growing up and clearly the way that I learned wasn't the way that everybody else learned and my mother was a learning and reading specialist actually in the
00:07:43
Speaker
I'm going to put this on our tombstone, I think. Sorry, mom. But good students use good resources. And what she meant by that, too, Tommy had over and over and over again. What she meant was that was that you find your way around it. If you don't learn this way, then you go and you get a tutor and you go and you do this, you persevere. And that's not the easiest thing. I'm pretty sure if I went back in time and asked my 16 year old self how I felt about the outlook is not good there, my friend. But but to this day when
00:08:14
Speaker
Like I will personally, I'll forget you're not in my head. So I'm talking about something as if you just are going to know exactly what I've taught, what I'm talking about. Cause I'm, you know, 10 sentences ahead. And the person who I'm talking to is like, wait, okay. You just skipped. Yeah. What? Right. Where are you? You didn't, you didn't show your work there. Yeah. Flashbacks. Yeah, exactly. Here's the answer. Here you go. And I, to stop and stop and slow down and basically to compensate.
00:08:45
Speaker
in some way is really, really hard. And so you say a little bit more about your experience with that and how either with your own experience with your kids, I mean, how have you learned to either identify areas or kind of just overcome what to me always feels like a wall I have to climb over?
00:09:07
Speaker
Yeah. And it's very difficult. The first thing is to teach you kids, I think, self-awareness to understand, you know, what's going on in their head and be able to analyze it and do reality checking against it. Because I also have experience with one of my kids having Schizoaffective disorder, which is schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
00:09:33
Speaker
And so when they have had psychotic episodes, um, that was taking things to another completely different level and trying to reach them where they were and giving them the emotional support that they needed because they were terrified, but also saying, okay, let me teach you how to test your reality because what you're thinking right now is not, uh, you know, is not correct. And.
00:09:58
Speaker
I want to reassure you, but I have to do it in a way that you're going to accept.
00:10:03
Speaker
So, you know, I had to do a lot of adaptation on the fly and figured this out because this is not in parenting books. None of this stuff is. You know, when your kid comes home and is telling you that somebody followed them home and they're bullying them, you tend to just believe it. And, you know, you go, OK, let me talk to the teachers. Let me find out who it is. Then when they say that they're outside and they're on the roof and they just fell down and broke their leg and you go outside and there's nobody there.
00:10:31
Speaker
Then your brain just does a huge shift and goes, oh, my God, this is completely different from the way I thought it was. And to kind of move this into the workforce, I've had this experience, too, where you talk with an employee and you think you're having a logical argument with them.
00:10:49
Speaker
And they're reacting very differently from what you would expect. And you finally realize that they're on a completely different planet from you and they're not coming back. So you have to think as a manager and go, okay, how do I deal with this now? Because a lot of the assumptions that I had about being able to reach them are not going to work.
Managing Neurodivergent Strengths Effectively
00:11:10
Speaker
So, so what do I do? And again, this is something I've had a lot of management training. This is not something they teach you in management training either.
00:11:18
Speaker
So I know I'm kind of lumping together what we usually call mental illness with neurodivergence, but I really don't think there's a big difference. I don't know if it's very crude to say that the one type of problem you can treat with medication and the other you can't, but I don't know. There are all sorts of things that are
00:11:40
Speaker
It's the human experience. Yeah, it's the human experience one way or another. And I think, as you said, when you're a manager, you've got all different types of people. And I mean, this can be anything from just your person who you usually understand is suddenly having a bad day or something has happened in their life that's disrupting them. I think as any manager is trying to work with different people, it's a challenge. There's a lot of different personalities. And so, yeah, I'd love to get your thoughts on,
00:12:10
Speaker
the role of neurodivergence in the security industry, because we're seeing a lot of that for lots of different reasons, whether it's focus, complex problems, the ability to multitask. And then, yeah, what it's like managing them. So let's say you're a CISO or security leader, you've got a thousand things that are stressing you out, but then you also have a team with one or more neurodivergent individuals. Can you share your thoughts or experiences with that?
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And as you said, you know, neurodivergence presents itself in so many different ways. And I think as a manager, I've learned that I just cannot make assumptions about how somebody is going to want to operate when they join my team, what they like, what they don't like, what they're stronger at.
00:13:04
Speaker
I've known some people who are just, if you have social anxiety, I'm not going to send you into a meeting to try to present something to a very skeptical audience. That's just not fair. I'll say, look, okay, you can work on this. On the other hand, I discovered that I had ADHD in my 40s.
00:13:24
Speaker
It wasn't until, well, a lot of things made sense after that, like the fact that I've moved house, you know, and state and country approximately 70 times.
00:13:38
Speaker
You know, what was that kind of, you know, that sort of thing is kind of a tip off, or, you know, that I have jumped from very different role to very different role, because anytime I see something really interesting, I'm like, sure, I'll try that. Yeah, why not? So, you know, recognizing that in other people, and realizing that it can often come with a problem with executive function,
00:14:03
Speaker
where I will see somebody on my team who's got like 15 things started and none of them finished. And they don't realize that they may be in the same situation I am. And it's not my job as a manager to diagnose them. I certainly can't, I shouldn't. But what I can do and what I have done is, for example, offered all of my people
00:14:28
Speaker
the opportunity to have a free session or two with an executive coach who I know can point out some of these issues. And it's in a way that I don't have to get involved with as a manager. I can just say, look, I'm going to give you some free sessions. Whatever you want to do with these sessions is up to you. But sometimes they come back and go, huh, I wonder if I have ADHD. And I go, well, you know,
00:14:56
Speaker
that might be something to look into because it can affect everything in your day where you cannot just sit up and do things. I will have a form that I have to print out and sign. And if I'm not on my ADHD meds, I will go, oh God, printing is hard. And I'll put it off and I'll put it off and I'll put it off. And then 15 minutes after I take my pill, suddenly it's not a problem. It's fun and I can do the thing. And it's such an incredible difference
00:15:25
Speaker
that I know internally that it is not just a case of, well, you just need to be more disciplined. Because I was compensating for this for 40 years. It's not that I wasn't able to organize or think or everything.
00:15:41
Speaker
It was just that additional neurological thing that needed to be fixed. And now I know that I can take a pill when I'm fighting something and I can do the thing. And I know, you know, when the pill wears off, I end up sitting like this with my head in my hands, my head just blank, trying to think of the next thing to do. And I've told people close to me, if they see me sitting like this, tell me because I need to take another dose of medication so I can get back to it.
00:16:11
Speaker
So it's that sort of thing, the day to day operations of somebody on the team and being able to look at it and go, you know, have you thought about this? Because, you know, this is again, this is not your fault. And I'm not as a manager, I'm not, you know, trying to
00:16:30
Speaker
You know, to give you a hard time about this and I'm not, you know, I don't want to put this in a performance, um, you know, report or anything like that, because I know this is not your fault, but let's see what we can do to help you with this because you've got these 15 things open and you're not, you're not getting any of them done. And that is a performance problem.
00:16:51
Speaker
So walking that line, you know without diagnosing them because you're not a medical professional but saying I see This type of thing going on and I'm very familiar with it myself. You know, is there anything I can do to help? Yeah It's a tricky thing it is it is and one thing that I've been sensitive to my life is being what I call set up for success and
00:17:14
Speaker
And so there's because there's things that there's things that I can do that I love doing and just come out naturally. And it's like, it's amazing. And then other things that I know are not my strong suit. And usually those are attention to detail, like my whole life, more attention to detail, slow down, more attention to detail. And so like, if I'm doing a job and it's here, look at this spreadsheet for patterns and error, like
00:17:38
Speaker
I'm going to gloss over. I'm not going to see it. It's too detailed and my brain goes crazy. I get super irritable about it because if I get distracted, if somebody comes in and distracts me, I'm like, you don't know how bad this is to distract me right now because focus, I'm going to make mistakes. I live in fear of this.
00:17:57
Speaker
And so I know that if there's roles or jobs that include that, is that really the best match for me versus my colleague over here or somebody over there who excels? Like editing, right? I'm a terrible editor. I always need to have somebody edit. That's one of my compensation tips to have somebody edit what it is that I'm writing for typos and things like that.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, have you been able, can CISOs and leaders afford to do that when things are moving so quickly and go, okay, you, who's really good at attention to detail, you're gonna be awesome at spotting and looking at all of these reports. And you over here, who's kind of the big picture, I want you to be thinking about how we're gonna communicate security practices to the team. Or is it for a CISO just, we gotta get this done, I don't have time to think about what you're all good at, we don't have enough resources as it is, get going.
Aligning Roles with Individual Strengths
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah, I would definitely not encourage that second attitude because to me being a leader is not just saying this is what we have to do, just go do it, but helping everybody, setting them up for success, as you put it. And that means you have to be able to match your management style to theirs.
00:19:15
Speaker
and figure out that deploying your resources in the right ways, they do this really well in the military. The best corporate leaders do this as well. It's really understanding your people because you are nothing without your people.
00:19:35
Speaker
trying to find, like, for example, if there's somebody on my team who does not have attention to detail, I'm not going to send them an email because they know they're not going to read it, or they're going to skim over it. But I know that sending them an instant message
00:19:51
Speaker
in just a little piece is much easier for them to digest because they're really good at responding to all sorts of stimuli coming in from every place and they're going to notice everything. As long as it's short enough, they're going to see it and they're going to ingest it. So I know that that's the best way to communicate with them. I know that there are people who just absolutely love
00:20:16
Speaker
moving from one topic to another to get interested in something. And there are other people who are very happy just doing the same thing over and over again for years.
00:20:28
Speaker
And you have to know all these differences and you have to be aware and open to the fact that there's something you're going to miss. For example, both my kids have auditory processing disorders, which never showed up because it's not a hearing problem. They can hear, they can pass hearing tests just fine. It's just that if there's a room full of people talking, they cannot make out what somebody is saying to them. So fine, you know, got to figure out not to put them in crowds because they,
00:20:58
Speaker
they just can't process it as well. So if I notice that somebody didn't pick up on things in a meeting, and this happens regularly, I may think, okay, if I want them to be able to hear and understand and analyze something, it can't be in a crowded room. So you have to be prepared for anything that comes to you from your people in the form of something that they
00:21:26
Speaker
you know, can or can't do is something that you assumed was fine for everybody is not necessarily fine for everybody. So that that's the simplest way I think I can put it. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And you had said earlier, what you think really holds it in is that if you can have that self awareness, so
00:21:46
Speaker
One, self-awareness is an individual who may or may not be neurodivergent. I mean, even just in general, if everybody has a self-awareness, their strengths and their weaknesses, that's helpful. But then as a manager and a leader, having that awareness of your team and hopefully the trust and communication where if somebody comes to you and says, I'm trying, it's not that I don't want to do these 15 things, I'm stuck and I need help getting unstuck or
00:22:11
Speaker
My attention to detail isn't great. I'm sorry that there's a lot of edits you have to make or mistakes. What can I do? How can we get around this? And it becomes teamwork. Yeah, absolutely. And the more time you spend helping to hone your team towards their strengths, the better it's going to be when you're dealing with unexpected things in situations, especially if you've got an incident that everybody's got to work with. Everybody knows who's best at what.
00:22:41
Speaker
on the team and they can work better together once they know that, once they understand that. Instead of all of this thrashing of people trying to do things they're not suited for and they're trying to do it in a hurry and they're under stress, that's just going to make your situation worse as a CSO.
00:22:58
Speaker
Now, have you ever had the experience when, say, when neurodivergence meets neurodivergence? So you've got, say, somebody who maybe has visual processing meets auditory processing, or OCD meets ADHD. Now you've got two people that need to work together, and it's just the communication isn't there. And sometimes there's not even a willingness to have it be there. It's just too frustrating.
00:23:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, it's the gaps that I talk about, the things you run up against that go, why does she not get that? This is so frustrating because I get it. I think it's obvious why does she not get it. That's why I think neurodivergence has to be maybe not with that term, but just part of the cultural awareness of a team that
00:23:45
Speaker
You know, some people can do some things and some people can do different things better. And don't assume that you're communicating perfectly with your colleagues.
00:23:58
Speaker
get to know them and how they prefer to do things. And this can be in any sort of situation. For example, non-native English speakers, if you're speaking in a language that's not your native tongue, you tend to be insecure about it. You tend to use simpler words because that's the vocabulary you have. And as a result, you feel kind of stupid.
00:24:22
Speaker
speaking this other language because you're saying it like, you know, I like the thing, you know, instead of being able to say what you're used to in your native language. And that and this can also make you sound very blunt. So when I've worked with international teams, for example, German speakers tend to come across as very blunt when they're speaking or writing in English.
00:24:44
Speaker
And it doesn't mean that they're rude or antagonistic or anything like that. It's just they're not using their native language and they're just being very plain about what they're saying. So I've had to take people who, you know, tended to get upset at these communications and say, look, just get on the phone with this person and have a virtual beer and just talk about, don't talk about work, talk about anything else, but, you know, just get to know each other and then you'll get to understand that the way they speak
00:25:13
Speaker
it's just a function of it not being their native language and you've got to make allowances for that. So all sorts of different neurodivergent things, again, if you've built up a cultural awareness around it so that people know that they can't assume things and they are ready to try to
00:25:37
Speaker
figure out what's going wrong in this communication or why this person is not getting the thing done that they asked them to, or things like that, I think it'll be more natural to kind of reach out and try different tactics. Now, not everybody is capable of trying different styles, again, because neurodivergence.
00:26:02
Speaker
Um, so they might say, look, this is the way I talk. This is, I can't do it any other way. Uh, I'm sorry. This is just me. And especially if you're neurodivergent and less aware, because that, that sort of, that sort of internal modeling doesn't come with your wiring because of your neurodivergence. You just can't do it. Uh, I've, I've known some people who were like that too.
00:26:27
Speaker
Um, they realized it was a problem, but they just, you know, they couldn't, they couldn't change. That's when you have to step in as a leader and go, okay, you know, here are the things that are, you can safely do or maybe, you know, write things out.
00:26:43
Speaker
like to have some sort of, not a contract, but sort of a memorandum of agreement with the person you're having trouble with and saying, when I say this, you know, I think it means this. What do you think it means? What are you going to do if I say this to you? What should I say to you instead? And in as much as you have to work together,
00:27:05
Speaker
negotiate the terms of those interactions. You would think that you wouldn't have to write them out, and with me, with ADHD, I hate writing things out. It feels redundant to me, but it does help when you have to get that explicit. Yeah. When I've run into security leaders, or just leaders in general, and they say, I have this person on my staff who just says, just let me do my work my way. I'll deliver, but leave me alone, and puts up that wall around them.
00:27:35
Speaker
A lot of times there's that hesitation of, okay, they're delivering. Is that just who they are? Do I try and get them over the wall? Is the only way to connect to them? I just have to kind of persevere through it? Or do you just let them be an outlier to the team? But can that be detrimental? Have you run into any situations like that? We've just got a, I am who I am, leave me alone. Don't talk to me. I won't talk to you, but I'll get my work done kind of people.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And again, if the assumption is in order to have a team, everybody has to be happy, happy, and, you know, engage with each other and all that, that's not necessarily the case either. Because you're, you're there to
00:28:14
Speaker
to do work, to perform functions, to be of service to each other, not to control each other. And because that's a mistake a lot of people make in security, they think it's a control function in the organization. And it shouldn't be, it should be a service organization. And so, yeah, there are some people that, you know, I'm not sure why, but I see this a lot in networking.
00:28:38
Speaker
that there are people who are just, leave me alone, I'm brilliant in what I do, I'm just gonna do my thing, but don't try to make friends with me, don't try to create the same emotional engagement you do with everybody else, because I'm just not down with that. And you have to be okay with that and realize that that was your assumption as to how things were gonna go and you have to let that go. Yeah, it's really great advice.
00:29:04
Speaker
So what do you think are the advantages of hiring neurodivergent individuals?
Hiring Neurodivergent Individuals: Holistic Approach
00:29:11
Speaker
Well, I think it's, I don't know, that's kind of a tricky question in that it makes me feel kind of like, you know, I wouldn't, you wouldn't ordinarily hire a neurodivergent person, and I'm trying to make the case that you should. Whereas, you know, I feel like
00:29:31
Speaker
everybody's neurodivergent in a little larger or smaller ways. And so it's not that I'm going to go look for a neurodivergent person. I know there are organizations that deliberately seek out people on the autism spectrum, you know, for one thing or another. I think that oversimplifies what
00:29:52
Speaker
types of neurodivergence there are, and it almost stereotypes, especially people on the autism spectrum, that say, oh, you're good at details. I'm going to get you to come and do nothing but Excel spreadsheets. Yeah. Because I need somebody who will do this. But with autism comes so many other things, which can include volatile emotions and all sorts of overlapping symptoms with other issues, including OCD or
00:30:21
Speaker
you know everything else that you can't pick people for one characteristic and so I think what you have to do is hire the whole person and figure out what they can do but once you figure out their strengths it's like anybody else you're like great you know you really love doing this you know doing this thing with details I'm gonna let you do that because I'm really bad at it
00:30:48
Speaker
And that's the way I think we should be thinking about this, not doing a campaign to hire people because that kind of others them. And people start to think, well, maybe I shouldn't hire them because, you know, what if they're a problem to manage? Right. And and we want to get as far away from that as we can. Yeah.
00:31:08
Speaker
when I was applying for jobs, there's like the little tick of, you know, are you ADHD? You know, I forget exactly what the question is. But you can basically indicate, okay, yes, I am some way of neurodivergent. And I must have spent way too much time overthinking it, going like, well, are you hiring this? Or should I? But then I don't. And it kind of, because I'm an overthinker, right? It's like,
00:31:30
Speaker
Well, how does that work? Is it a good thing? Are there people out there? And I imagine, like anything, there's people out there who want to avoid neurodivergence in hiring because they're not comfortable maybe, or for whatever reasons. And then there's people who might be looking for that, whatever it is. So I like your... HR is just saying, I want you to track the number. That's the only thing this is for. But you don't know that when you're filling out an application.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, to hire for the person, because nobody's guaranteed superpowers, nobody's guaranteed anything, which kind of brings us back to the labels, right? Like just you're more than just a label, you're more than just a diversity hire, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, I mean, it's great when you get somebody who thinks differently from the rest of the team, and you say, wow, you know, you're bringing perspectives that we couldn't have thought of, that is really awesome.
00:32:26
Speaker
But it's really hard to go shopping for that when you're looking for a candidate. Yes. It's better just to ask them what excites you. What are you interested in? What kind of things have you done that you're really proud of? And you can kind of glean from that. I picked up on these issues that nobody else saw. And then you go, wow, great. We could really use that.
00:32:48
Speaker
Or somebody who's just you know, I love to learn about things I love to learn about as many things as I can just throw me into something new and I'll figure it out Yeah, that's another really great strength. So and we need that in cybersecurity because the field is so broad Yeah, I also like to ask people what's their working style like because for years for me I sitting there from nine to five and
00:33:14
Speaker
was almost painful. I mean, really it was just hard not to do and I would end up, okay, this is when I was in college doing the, I would end up, okay, is it time? Oh, I can go early? Oh, okay, you're done for the day. And then there'd be my college would be like, I want more hours. And if I could get a break and then come back like that night or something like that,
00:33:34
Speaker
I'll work 24-7 for you if you allow me my intermittent breaks throughout the time. I'll be checking my email at 9 at night. I don't just work 9-5, but I need those 12 hours, 13 hours, whatever it is. You know what I'm saying, I think.
00:33:53
Speaker
And it's been when I've had people work for me and they say, look, sometimes I'll take the afternoon, but then I'll reply to something at night. That doesn't mean that you have to respond right away. And we just talk about it right up front. What are your peak hours of working? Um, and not even just for general, not just neurodivergence in general, but sometimes that can, uh, help, you know, I know people that I focus really well from 2AM to 4AM.
00:34:17
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. That is so important for people to be able to, you know, feel free to talk about, this is what I can do and when I can do it. Like, for example, right now I'm struggling with, with brain fog as a result of long COVID. And that means that I can't do more than one, maybe two meetings in a row. And then I have to lie down and I get mentally exhausted as well as physically exhausted. I cannot focus.
00:34:44
Speaker
I cannot solve anything. I have to lie down. And I think we're going to see more of this as the pandemic continues. I'm sorry, it's not over. You know, people coming in, maybe not realizing that they have brain fog. They just know that they get really tired and they need a nap at 2 p.m. and they need to be able to come back to work after that. And we've got to be ready for this. We have to be able to accommodate it because it's going to be part of the fabric of humanity.
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think that that comes to, again, what are people's working styles as you know, it's earlier. So I have issues with my thyroid and when it is off, right? I'm tired. I have trouble focusing. I have trouble saying the right words. Like, um, I'm like, wait, that's not the word I meant to say. What just came out of my mouth and like, and
00:35:38
Speaker
It's not that I can't deliver or I don't care or I'm not a good employee. I'm ready to show up and work as hard as I can, but I'm human and have limitations. And when I've had people work for me, when I've said, do what you can do. But as you said earlier, there's that open communication and awareness and trust. I'm going to deliver. I'm not just here and I'm not going to get these things done, but letting people be human because we are.
Creating Adaptable Work Environments
00:36:06
Speaker
That's so true. And I think part of this has been poisoned by the Silicon Valley originally Puritan work ethic sort of thing where you think if you're not going 24 seven, if you're not working hard, you don't care, or you're not smart enough. If you make mistakes, it means you're sloppy. You know, all these negative things that we have about people who don't act the way the CEO might, or, you know, some EVP
00:36:35
Speaker
who is not dealing with the same challenges that other people are. And like you said, we have to make a space for these people to be able to come in and say, this is how I need to work. These are the limitations that I have. And not even say limitations, but this is the structure that I work best with. I think that's a good kind of corporate way of putting it instead of saying, I have all these limitations, which makes you think,
00:37:04
Speaker
that you're telling them that you're crappy at your job. But just to understand that we all need these different things, even if we're not aware of them and we find out, we don't find these things out in school necessarily. We just know that something's difficult for us and we think the problem is us. But when you get older and you finally figure out, oh yeah, that's why I was never really good at this. Or this is why I only have an attention span of two to five years in any given job.
00:37:34
Speaker
and realizing that I cannot remember things anymore the way I used to. And so if I see you at a conference and you remember that we had this wild evening where we went and climbed up a glass pyramid in Switzerland and all those kinds of things, and I don't remember it, don't take it personally.
00:37:55
Speaker
You know, this is this is just what I'm living with now, but I can still come up with really good ideas. I can still have inspiration and that's what I want to focus on. So we all need the freedom to be able to do, you know, one or the other ask for what we need. And we need as managers to be able to maybe anticipate it and offer it because that will help make for happier employees. Yeah.
Promoting Neurodivergence Awareness in Teams
00:38:21
Speaker
How do you think that we can bring awareness of neurodiverrances? I mean, not just for managers, but also for the people who may be neurodivergent or having some of the signs of it, but may not know it?
00:38:37
Speaker
Um, yeah, that again, that's really difficult because you can't as a leader, you can't just walk up to somebody in an environment and say, I think you have ADHD. Very quickly. Do not recommend. So, you know, and, and also it's still in a lot of circles sounds like a weakness or an illness or a disorder. I mean, it's got a D right on their disorder. And I, I hate that.
00:39:06
Speaker
Um, because some of the people with ADHD are some of the most brilliant people I know and some of the best innovators. Um, it's just that there are things that they, they like to work at and things that they don't like to work at. So I think having the discussion openly and starting with yourself, uh, you know, and, and working with employees and going, yeah, you know, God, I hate doing timesheets. Don't ever make me do a timesheet.
00:39:31
Speaker
Um, but you know, I, I will do this. Do you like doing tongue? Could you do it? Could you do this thing for me? Um, and, and, you know, figuring out and having that, that open discussion, but trying the challenges.
00:39:46
Speaker
not trying to paint it as though everybody on your team has a disability of some kind, because some people really hate that label too. And even though legally it is to your advantage as an employee, if you put it in writing and say, look, I have ADHD and I need these accommodations, legally and from an HR perspective, it's better these days if you do it that way, it can have a psychic toll on you because you're acting like
00:40:17
Speaker
you're not 100% or you may feel like you're not 100% and you absolutely are because you were hired for certain talents and certain skills and you're doing those things, you're fulfilling them. Don't try to compare yourself to somebody else who has a different brain than you do. So I think just having the conversation
00:40:46
Speaker
building that trust, as you said, by opening up, doing disclosure, role modeling, how you interact with people, how you take the time to make something explicit that you would think didn't need to be said, but it does. Modeling all of that with your team and letting them see that, I think, is better than making them watch an awareness video.
00:41:14
Speaker
God, I hate videos. People try them slowly. It drives me crazy. Do not put anything in a video. No. Double the speed. Go through. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're kind of going back to what we were saying about labels. And so for me, I grew up in a very academic household. My mother was a dean. Like, this is one of the reasons why I knew by the time I was like eight years old that whatever I was doing in school, I was going all the way with it because academia was God as far as like it was in my house.
00:41:44
Speaker
But this was a generation, you know, my parents are older. And, you know, I've gotten in a lot of discussions about that. This is not the way of thinking because hands down, some of the smartest people I know.
00:41:56
Speaker
and have not followed through the educational food chain, right? And I'm not, it's one of the reasons why, even though for me, I like school and I just like the learning process, when somebody is hiring and they say, well, they need this degree. And it's like, no, they don't. No, they really don't. It doesn't mean anything. And I think all of us in one way or another are limited or strong. And we don't want to be put in a box
00:42:22
Speaker
necessarily a label. Yes, it has its advantages. Yes, sometimes it's a, it's a pass to saying, okay, this is how you know who I am and how you can help understand me. But as a leader, I think I would think that understanding everyone on your team, whether they're neurodivergent or not, but their strengths, their weaknesses, how they interact,
00:42:42
Speaker
Uh, and then not pinholing people like, Oh, you, you had those careless errors because you didn't care. It's like, well, no, it's not that I didn't care. I just, I don't see them in the same way. Somebody who is having a mood can't smile that day, like, you know, or it doesn't want to put on a happy face. I mean, we all have our, our pieces to us that make us human. Exactly. I mean, I'm, I'm a liberal arts dropout myself and, uh, and I like
00:43:10
Speaker
It turns out that I like liberal arts because
00:43:14
Speaker
there were just so many different things to learn that that tickled my ADHD, but I dropped out because I couldn't stand to sit in a classroom anymore. I cannot do training, cannot stand it. And so that's, you know, just, you know, understanding myself and knowing that I, I shouldn't make myself do that. And I don't have to make myself do that is, is good. But if you were trying, for example, if you're neurodivergent, and you were trying to figure out what would be area would be best for you in cybersecurity,
00:43:44
Speaker
Um, I don't know if we have enough ways of figuring this out that really address the way you think, um, you know, like I'm, I'm a generalist and people say, no, there, there can't be any generalists in, uh, infosec anymore.
00:44:02
Speaker
I don't believe that. I mean, I can go on a stage and talk for 10 minutes about anything. Maybe not cryptography, but anything else I can talk about. And that's the sort of position I've built for myself. If you are the sort of person who is really good at finding things that are wrong or finding gaps, finding vulnerabilities, then
00:44:24
Speaker
hence to security research and pen testing and vulnerability. If you're the kind of person who likes going, oh, you missed a spot, then maybe don't put that person in front of the board, but they're going to be very valuable in particular ways. So I would encourage people who are working on their career in cybersecurity to take this opportunity to think about
00:44:48
Speaker
You know, honestly, what things do you really enjoy and what just just drives you crazy when you have to do it and then try to find those paths in insecurity that that meet your strengths and your enjoyment. It's not always going to be something that you enjoy, but at least it shouldn't be torture. You know, you shouldn't think there's something wrong with you and and make yourself do it anyway.
00:45:16
Speaker
Well said, well said. Wendy, thank you so much for your time and your insight. It's been such a pleasure to have you. I love these conversations and looking at the security industry from a different perspective. So thank you so much for your wisdom and expertise here. Oh, well, thank you, Stacey. This has been great. Great. So for those of you tuning in, thank you so much for tuning into this episode, and I will see you next time.