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Episode 1: Dev Anand
73 Plays1 year ago
For our first Episode of Conversing Cinema, we celebrate the life and work of Dev Anand, who would have been 100 years old today (the 26th of September 2023).
Join your hosts Deepak and Julian as we look at Dev Anand's appeal, his career and who he was as a person.
Links:
Kala Bazar (all songs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmVG7FVC-NA&t=259s
Abhi Na Jaao Chhod Kar from Hum Dono: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVuyQ-wJdEc
You can reach us with your feedback and comments at: podcast@conversingcinema.in
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Transcript
Introduction to Conversing Cinema
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome to Conversing Cinema, a podcast about films from India and occasionally beyond. Your co-hosts are Deepak Mahan and me, Julian Cauldry.
00:00:26
Speaker
Before we get started with episode one, I'll take a moment to introduce the history behind this show. I first met Deepak many years ago at a screenwriting conference in Mumbai. We're both fairly mature gentlemen and perhaps three times the average age of the other participants at the conference, so there was a certain inevitability to our meeting.
Hosts' Love for Indian Cinema
00:00:48
Speaker
For those who don't already know him, Deepak is an award-winning writer, documentarian, filmmaker and commentator who's a regular fixture in many publications and university campuses across India. By contrast, I'm an expatriate Australian who's lived in India for the best part of a decade. I'm also a writer and filmmaker, but my knowledge of the vast terrain of Indian cinema is still evolving.
00:01:13
Speaker
Despite our different backgrounds, we both share a deep love of film. And what we hope to do in the show is create an ongoing conversation that's interesting to seasoned Indian cinema lovers, as well as those like me who are keen to know more. And now, on with the show. Welcome to conversing cinema. This is our first episode.
Celebrating Devanand's Legacy
00:01:35
Speaker
And for our first episode, we've decided to talk about Devanand.
00:01:41
Speaker
The reason being that the 26th of September will be his centenary birthday. So what better occasion to celebrate one of the great artists of Hindi cinema and really understand a bit more about who he was, why people loved him so much, his career, and also how was he as a person, what was he like? So Deepak, you're a bit of an expert on Devanand, right?
00:02:06
Speaker
I won't say that but I'm pretty glad that I spent some time with him not on an everyday basis but regularly meeting him off and on when I was in Bombay and we glued to each other we liked each other's company so in a way I was blessed that I had his cherished company
00:02:25
Speaker
I'm keen to know a little bit more about some of those personal experiences that you had and we'll come back to that a little bit later in the conversation. But I wanted to start off with the basics and want to hear from you about who was he on the screen? Why was he so beloved? What did people see in him as a star and an actor?
00:02:49
Speaker
Just remember that he came into films around 1946 a little before the Indian partition took place and the Britishers left India. India got independent and Pakistan was made followed by writing in the northern part of India and almost about a million people getting killed and that was the time when he stepped into on the Hindi film firmament and from that time onwards up till about 1970
00:03:17
Speaker
There were three stars in Indian film industry who rode like a closest. This trinity was Dilip Kumar, Raj Kapoor and Devanand. Now these three were kind of actors who came together almost around the same time. They gelled very well and yet they had their distinct niche in which they performed.
00:03:41
Speaker
not that they were not versatile they were but they kind of made place in the people's hearts with a particular kind of an image and those images wrote
00:03:54
Speaker
larger than life in people's imaginations. So while Dilip Kumar was personifying the sad, melancholic Indian, the suffering Indian, the kind of Indian we had seen in the pre-independent India and the man who would always sacrifice everything
00:04:18
Speaker
for the beloved or for the family, a person extremely loyal. This was the kind of image within which most of the films
00:04:29
Speaker
portrayed Dilip Kumar on screen on the other side was Raj Kapoor. He was the pavement dweller chaplain risk kind of very intelligent innocent yet always playing the buffoon always bearing out the heart or the tears. So in a certain way that man played the underdog all the time and people had a kind of a sympathy for both these characters.
Devanand's Impact on Cinema
00:04:56
Speaker
But in came this dashing, handsome, very charming man called Devanand, who had a smile which was very magnetic.
00:05:06
Speaker
who was slightly urban, sophisticated. He had an appeal. Girls loved his dimples and his toothy smile. And there was something which was a kind of word that English language alone has, chutzpah. He was somebody who could be slightly roguish, yet you loved him. He was slightly impish. And he was somebody whom you looked up to because while the other two,
00:05:34
Speaker
Give you little bit of sadness
00:05:38
Speaker
and made the life a little bit more heavy when he appeared most of his roles personas were those that gave people hope and these three were romantics on screen they were wooing their girls but Devanand was doing it with a certain smile he had a certain mannerism which people really liked so his uncommon approach to romancing to laughing and basically joy
00:06:08
Speaker
The river that was there in his personality appealed to people and I think that was the reason why Devanand had a Karish. It's interesting and I can recognize a lot of what you're saying in what I've been watching over the past few days.
00:06:25
Speaker
I was not familiar with Devanand's work, so I'm encountering it and him for the first time. And the thing that immediately jumped out at me as I was watching some of his movies is this sort of, like you were saying, really obeying, really sophisticated, but also there's an element of vulnerability or sort of in some of the material that I've watched, he portrays moral conflicts very transparently.
00:06:55
Speaker
And I found that really appealing too, because often when you position an actor as very stylish, very obeying, very powerful in that way, there's a temptation to make them invincible as characters. But in the stuff that I've watched,
00:07:16
Speaker
of his, that is very much not the case. There's a vulnerability, which I also found very appealing because there's that tension between the way he moves through spaces and scenes and the way that people look at him, very attractive actor, and that underlying conflict or moral dilemma that he is able to convey really subtly on his face.
00:07:41
Speaker
So that was the thing that immediately jumped out at me. When you're talking about the distinctions between those three actors and the fact that David Nunn was this more sort of urban cosmopolitan kind of persona, what was particularly appealing about that to people? All those years before the cinema, people had a lot of mythology to fall upon.
00:08:03
Speaker
So all the characters were kind of rooted. There were certain dogmatic outlines by which these people were portrayed in paintings in stories and even when they played these mythical roles on stage there were certain garbs and all which people would adorn and there were certain set styles in which they would speak.
00:08:25
Speaker
Now when cinema started in India initially it had a lot of Parsi influence where Parsi theater. I must remind you had loud dialogue delivery and
00:08:40
Speaker
in effect also a lot of kutrimans which were stylized, colored, highly garish and this is how films initially started with those kind of stories Raja, Harish, Chandra and Ram Raji and all but when these people
00:08:57
Speaker
came in Ashok Kumar, Dilip Kumar, Devanand, Raj Kapoor and then the subsequent breed and also some of the heroines
Transition in Indian Cinema
00:09:06
Speaker
like Narges, Meena Kumari, Suraya, Madhubala. They gave a certain sense to people that cinema was something part of their life. Yet what happened was that if Dilip Kumar portrayed a scene
00:09:23
Speaker
he was an exceptional thespian no doubt about it but there was something an element of earthiness in him which was sort of achievable similarly Rajkapur kind of people were seen in almost most of the towns but here was the Devanand
00:09:45
Speaker
who seemed to be polished, graceful, very gentle. Here was a man whom people had not seen before. A man who came up with better dress sense than most Indians at that time.
00:09:59
Speaker
who came up with different styles of colors and hats and scarves played harmonica or played the guitar. This was not a common man. He was out of the ordinary and this was the kind of persona most people wanted to attain or become and similarly when he laughed and when he sang on screen,
00:10:24
Speaker
There was again that word which I used earlier chutzpah. There was always a kind of impishness. There was a kind of a man who was a friendly rogue. I would say who would be teasing and enticing you and you wanted to also sweep your girl off in the same manner. So he lent something which was very original and that I think appealed to a very vast fraternity of Synagogues and that's why he became a symbol of romance for most Indians.
00:10:54
Speaker
And a symbol of aspiration from what you're saying as well. So perhaps this idea that this kind of sophistication is something for people to aspire to or people wanted to be part of that kind of urbanity and sophistication that he represented on screen. Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. You're absolutely right. It was, I think, because his screen persona became a kind of a metaphor for a romantic man. Here was a man who knew his mind.
00:11:23
Speaker
He knew how to dress up. He knew how to carry his girl. He knew how to walk up to her. He knew how to propose. Here was a man who knew his own mind. And that is why I think very early in his life, he started his own banner because he wanted to make the kind of films that he had in mind. And his films ultimately were able to convey that persona very powerfully on the screen. And that's why he became a big heartthrob of the masses.
00:11:52
Speaker
So let's talk about his career trajectory a little bit now. So before his peak, which we'll get to in a moment, how did he start
Devanand's Growth and Collaborations
00:12:02
Speaker
off in the industry? What was he doing in his early movies? Even in his biography and even in some of his private moments, he has confessed that he was very ashamed of his earlier films. And Hum Ek, which was his first film,
00:12:18
Speaker
is something actually it's you can't if you see that film it's just that I think there is something up in the stars which makes you a superstar there's something in I don't know whether it is luck or destiny whatever it is but if somebody was to go by the first film of Devanand as well as Raj Kapoor I think if I was to be a financer at that time I would have rejected them after that
00:12:47
Speaker
he himself says he was very uncomfortable, he didn't know anything about camera angles, he didn't know anything about acting but gradually he grew into it and I think he was one of those people like Dilip Kumar, Raj Kapoor
00:13:04
Speaker
He also understood cinematics, the techniques of the camera, the role of the playback singing that is music in the film and how that song could carry the story forward. He also had that perception very finely tuned and that is why all these three played characters which were distinctly suited to their own personas. And so initial films of his,
00:13:35
Speaker
Mohan or Hambi in Sanhe, Anamuna and all those films were kind of tolerable. You just had to suffer them. But gradually as he came in and he also in his first film he had formed a friendship with the famous director later on, Guru Dutt.
00:13:57
Speaker
Gurudat was the choreographer in Hum Ek Hai and they kind of became very close friends when they were shooting in Poona. Friendship came to a point where finally they said that if I become a very big star I'll see to it that you direct my film and Gurudat said that if I become a director I'll certainly see to it or if I become a big producer I'll see to it that I take you and Gurudat did get his break in a Navkeetan film.
00:14:26
Speaker
and from that time onwards I think they went and took off because these films Bazi, Jal they changed his entire persona of course earlier also Afsar and Andiya or Taxi Driver others which were directed by his own elder brother they too started making the dent
00:14:46
Speaker
and he knew what he could play and what he could not and that is why he never took roles which were about a rural countryside for a farmer or something of that sort because he knew those were not up history so that way I think is very worse very sophisticated and one greater thing also about all these three Dilip Kumar and
00:15:09
Speaker
Devanand. They were both graduates. Raj Kapoor was just up to I think he had passed his school. But let me tell you that I have not seen better readers in the film industry than these three. Russian literature was from A to Z had been read by Raj Kapoor as also Shakespeare. Similarly Dilip Kumar anything
00:15:33
Speaker
in English literature or in Hindi or in Urdu and same with Devanand. He had read all the classics. He knew so much about everybody from Charles Dickens to Jane Austen or O. Henry, Emily Dickinson. So very well-versed and that's why they knew exactly what kind of persona would fit them and those were the kind of films that they always aimed for.
00:15:58
Speaker
really fascinating. So it sounds like there was quite a long apprenticeship for Devananda and for also some of his contemporaries, but at some point all of those elements clicked into place and his mature persona was able to express itself in his work. What do you think
00:16:20
Speaker
What were those elements that finally coalesced to really produce the actor and the presence that people understand him to be now? What were those things that really clicked into players? I think one is that since he
00:16:37
Speaker
New four languages, English, Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi. So that gave him a fairly good sprinkling of literature of four languages. And the second thing was that he had been tutored in one of the finest colleges of that time, the government college Lahore.
00:16:56
Speaker
and he had graduated in English literature that gave him a certain sense of poetry of literature. He also knew what kind of passages or what kind of stories appeal to the heart and growing from those classics. He kind of realized that he was a man who was basically too urban
00:17:24
Speaker
and he wanted to get along and move ahead in life and this was the Nehruvian age where Nehru was trying to modernize India and
00:17:34
Speaker
Of course all three of these people were very close to Nehru and they in their own way were projecting not just the personas but also films which portrayed great brotherhood. They were trying to salvage and bring a certain kind of calmness to the subcontinent after the great holocaust of the partition.
Producing Films with a Vision
00:17:54
Speaker
So he knew that he appealed very largely to the urban audiences of the cities, the metropolitans.
00:18:02
Speaker
And that is why he played roles of course which were not necessarily just of the upper middle class or the upper echelons of the society. No, he played a taxi driver or he played a person who was a pickpocket.
00:18:19
Speaker
Yet he knew that in that too the sensibilities that he conveyed were very very modern, they were very very city oriented and in a certain way he projected that dynamism of a man who was full of energy
00:18:40
Speaker
full of fun frolic and somebody who was a go-getter not just getting the girl but also somebody who by twisting the law here and there a little bit
00:18:53
Speaker
could get his way around and make the opponents come down on their knees. Now this is something which was very very smart move on his part and that is why I think most of his films were very much like and they were big hits in metropolitan areas and mind you in those days the cinema largely existed in towns.
00:19:14
Speaker
not in villages. People were now migrating from villages to cities and this was the ideal time for him to project a slick city man who knows his mind, a man who can get his way around and a man who is determined to get to his
00:19:30
Speaker
And he did it in his own stylish manner which was very unique. Nobody had done it before and nobody has been able to copy his mannerism, his style of speaking. That was something which really gelled and I think that's why I would call him a winner. So it wasn't just a matter of him becoming a better actor and understanding how he came across on screen. From what you're saying he also had a
00:19:58
Speaker
a very good understanding of what was happening politically and socially during the time that he was working, and also commercially in cinema, so he knew who his audience was, where they lived, what they wanted to see, and he was able to kind of tailor his own presence and the characters he was portraying to really appeal to all of those different elements. Yes, yes.
00:20:22
Speaker
So you mentioned before that at a certain point in his career, he wanted to take more control of what he was doing, which makes sense in terms of what you just talked about. So when all those elements became clear to him, I imagine that he then had a very clear sense of what he should be doing in terms of the roles and films that he wanted to make.
00:20:43
Speaker
Talk a little bit about that period in his career, a really peak period when he was working with his brothers and producing films with Vijay and Chaitan. Talk a little bit about that period.
00:20:56
Speaker
you see he started his career in 46 and by 1949 when he had given a few hits and he felt a little secure he thought that rather than spending money and going to another producer maybe if he could also invest a little bit of his own money in his own studio or his own banner then maybe he could also make films which were closer to his heart
00:21:25
Speaker
And that's what appealed to his elder brother also Chaitan Anand by that time, had made a film called Neecha Nagar, which was based on a story by Khwajay Ahmed Abbas. And it was about what a problem, imagine his foresight of what we are facing today all around the world. The water scarcity was something that was taken up by Chaitan Anand at that time.
00:21:49
Speaker
and that film won an award in Karlovy Film Festival and Chaitan Anand also had sensibilities which were drawn from his education at Shanti Niketan and also being a broadcaster at BBC and also being a teacher at the famous English Kool Doon School Dehradun.
00:22:09
Speaker
So all this, the two of the brothers, they were always on conversing cinema. And third brother, Vijayananda, who was studying in Bombay, winning a lot of accolades at university level for his theatre writing. And he was winning awards on various competitions in colleges and universities. Even at all Indian level, he won competition for the best director as well as best writer
00:22:38
Speaker
for theater so they knew that here was a man who was also in following their footsteps and so they felt very comfortable that if they had their own banner and hence they started and they started with a film called Afsar which was their first film not done on a very expansive budget so it could give them a good return and it gave them a foothold so then Chetan Anand also directed him
00:23:06
Speaker
in Andhya which was another very serious film. Then they came up with a film called Taxi Driver. Now here was something because Andhya bombed very badly on the box office and they were feeling the heat and that's why they also called in and Gurudat was also given a chance.
00:23:25
Speaker
and Guru Dutt made Bazi which was a box office hit and Guru Dutt himself was established and it also brought in a kind of playback singing and how it was enacted on the screen. Guru Dutt was a master in shooting song sequences and so this gave them enough confidence and then one day they came across this particular story Taxi Driver which was actually written by
00:23:55
Speaker
this brother of theirs and immediately they sat down to it. It was actually suggested by Chetan Anand's wife Uma Anand who also had very fine sensibilities and she came from a literary family and they all sat down and when they heard that taxi driver they were fascinated
00:24:18
Speaker
And this Taxi Driver was one of the first films which was done outdoors. Almost 100% of it was shot on the roads and that's why on a very shoestring budget because a couple of films in between had bombed. But then Taxi Driver came in, was a big hit. Taxi Driver was directed by Chaitan Anand. But after Taxi Driver also they had Fantoosh, Kenare, Kenare which were directed by Chaitan Anand.
00:24:47
Speaker
But after Kinare Kinare, there was a kind of a creative differences between the two elder brothers. Chetan felt that Devanand was making films which were too much oriented towards commercial success and in the process some of the very serious subjects were not being looked into whereas Chetan wanted subjects which were socially a little more introspective, a little more penetrative. So they had creative differences and he kind of
00:25:18
Speaker
went away and instep the younger brother and the younger brother said that he would like to direct Devanand initially was very hesitant but when they realized that it was earlier his script that had become a big hit they gave him the chance and he really proved himself and this was something up the sleeve he was director from the go
00:25:44
Speaker
I think the first film Vijayanand gave, did for Dey, was Nondogera, if I remember correctly. Nondogera. So it was a runaway hit and Vijayanand was established. And subsequently Vijayanand went on to do 10 different films. The best films that he did for Devanand, I would say, would be Kalabazar, Terekar Kesamne, Gaid,
00:26:11
Speaker
and Jewel Teeth and some even say Johnny Meranam, Tere Meri Sapne but those were Johnny Meranam was a different kind of a film and made for another banner and Tere Meri Sapne again was not a big hit and is not one of my favorite films in any way. So this was obviously a period of a lot of commercial success but also
00:26:36
Speaker
a lot of artistic success as well.
The Significance of 'Guide'
00:26:40
Speaker
And when I was watching some clips from Guide, I was really struck by the technical aspects of the filmmaking and how beautiful the film was actually. You mentioned before as well that there was some, you know, some progression in terms of how music was used, particularly playback singing and how that was portrayed on screen. So was this a collaboration that also pushed the form of Hindi cinema forward as well?
00:27:06
Speaker
one must give you a little bit of background in the sense that initially guide was just suggested to him as a novel by somebody in US and he read it on one go that is Devanand and he decided to make it actually in English and Hindi together and the initial discussions led to this that the screenplay would be written by the famous author of good earth and
00:27:35
Speaker
the Hindi would be based basically whatever she would write and it would be kind of translated and shot accordingly and Chaitanya Anand was appointed as the director because do remember that they only had creative differences. They didn't have any kind of bad blood between
00:27:52
Speaker
the brothers they went on and they got on very well and in between also they always mentored each other or they bounced off stories and scripts between one another and Chaitan Anand was making his own kind of films but there was no bad blood between them.
00:28:10
Speaker
So Chetan Anand was asked to do guide because they felt that once that English film would be shot. It was decided that side by side and the English film was to be directed by a director called Tad Danieliski and they thought that he would direct
00:28:29
Speaker
one scene then the same scene would be directed on the same shot, the same sequence, the same location with the Hindi translation being directed by Chetan Anand and the time in between would give the actors period enough to learn their Hindi dialogues.
00:28:49
Speaker
Initially things went off okay for a couple of days but then Chetan Anand being Chetan Anand highly evolved and a very nice sophisticated gentleman I had met him also and his son actually Kethan Mehta happens to be a good friend of mine. Chetan was also
00:29:10
Speaker
very very inspired intellectual. So he felt that whatever was being done by the English director if that was to be followed in total in the in the script that would be a disaster and Chaitan said let's have the entire Hindi schedule later on let them finish the English film and then we'll decide on our own the English film was made at a breathtaking space and then
00:29:37
Speaker
subsequently Chetan Anand could not do that film because he had to make a film on Indochina war for which he had applied for a grant to the Punjab government and the Punjab government was you know very generous with their
00:29:53
Speaker
money and they said you must make this film on the sacrifice of the soldiers and so he took permission from Dev. Now there was a dilemma as to who should step in as a director. So Devanand then turned to his younger director and Vijay Anand popularly known in the film fraternity as Goldie Anand was you know he went through the English screenplay he just threw it away and he said if you want me to direct I have to rewrite the whole screenplay again.
00:30:24
Speaker
and he rewrote the whole screenplay. The English guide and the Hindi guide are actually completely different in terms of their endings and in terms of their content and in their in the I would say terms of execution and I must confess that
00:30:47
Speaker
Vijayanan's film certainly is superior and was proven superior by the kind of thumping success it became. And it was a very, very difficult topic to take and produce. Remember, it was a story about a woman in those days in 1960s to talk about an extra marital affair of a woman walking out of a marriage on account of importance of the man.
00:31:16
Speaker
and then falling in love with a travel guide of a city and then the man contributing to the success of that woman who otherwise is being vilified by society yet he stands by her and then he makes her a big
00:31:36
Speaker
commercial successful dancer or stage dancer in the process over the period of time they have differences and then of course they fall apart in this metamorphosis he becomes a kind of a person who is very involved very evolved very enlightened
00:31:53
Speaker
and he kind of attains a state of bliss. Guide 1 somewhere around I think 7 or 9 Filmfare Awards was universally acclaimed. The English film died a very silent death all around the world, didn't have much of a return.
00:32:13
Speaker
yet the Navkethan banner went high with the success of guide. And I must add Julian one more thing. Dave has always been seen by most people as a romantic superstar, a cinematic
00:32:32
Speaker
persona but what people do not understand and this is largely the fault of critics these days there is this regular practice of saying such and such youngster has played an anti hero or something of that sort all the time but let me tell you that
00:32:51
Speaker
People like Dilip Kumar and Devanand played anti-heroes much, much earlier than most other people care to remember. He played a pickpocketer. He played a man who is going around counterfeiting. He also played a man who was
00:33:08
Speaker
in a particular film called Bombay Ka Babu where there are incestual stirrings in him. Now this in an Indian society the country had gone independent but had suffered huge religious fanaticism
00:33:27
Speaker
in that particular era to play these kind of roles. Similarly Dilip Kumar in Amr played a rapist. Now how many people would play that? And in Guide also, I think as a producer and as an actor, he took a huge risk of playing a man who is defying the society, he is leading that girl and he is the man who actually motivates and inspires that woman to walk out of that useless marriage.
00:33:57
Speaker
how many people would have courage to do that? So hats off to Devanand for that. It's actually fascinating to connect that particular example, the character that he plays in Guide with his more general persona that we talked about before, this very aspirational, very urbane, very progressive persona in the context of the society at that time. And it makes sense to me that he would
00:34:25
Speaker
marry that persona up with characters that did maybe question or push the boundaries of what was conventionally moral at that time. And clearly audiences loved it. I mean, it was a huge success. So they must have embraced that combination of Davenant and also this character who was really stepping outside what would have been considered acceptable morally, but in a very positive way.
00:34:48
Speaker
yes guide in a certain way was a milestone not just of filmmaking but also of changing the sensibility of the Indian masses opening up a kind of a liberated woman whom they had not seen earlier
00:35:06
Speaker
and she gelled she was lauded the credit actually goes to of course the screenplay writer and Vijayanan for the manner in which he executed the entire story on screen but
00:35:22
Speaker
one has to praise Devanand as a producer, as an actor to take that risk and in such a dogmatic country where we see that the smallest of infringement gives rise to
00:35:40
Speaker
an excuse that hurt my feelings and they go in for a riot. I must let you know into one secret which not many people know. Guide film also was initially opposed by a lot of people. Even the censor board said that this was a film which was hurting the sentiments of people. It was against the entire identity of marriage. At that time the information and broadcasting minister was Mrs. Indira Gandhi.
00:36:09
Speaker
He appealed to her, he wrote to her and asked her to see it personally. She saw the film, she applauded it and within a day the film was granted the census certificate and that's how it became a big success. And paradoxically, they were very good friends both Indira Gandhi and Devanand but Devanand was as a person also very alive to the social situation of the country, the economic situation of the country and very
00:36:39
Speaker
well-read man always traveling around the world meeting people and so when Indira Gandhi actually imposed emergency in India 1975 he was one of the first persons who vocally came out and opposed her and said to people and put it in print also that a Democrat as great as Jawarlal Nehru a man who
00:37:05
Speaker
put in the foundations of democracy in India. His daughter should not be trampling democracy in India in any
Impact of New Cinema Trends
00:37:12
Speaker
way. And Indira Gandhi took it very sportingly. He even floated the idea of having a political party. So let's talk about
00:37:22
Speaker
that period in his career after this golden period with so many hits and so many films that still remain mainstays today. So his career did start to decline. What was the reason for that? I think one of the major reasons was that after the influx of 1980s when the color television came in and also the
00:37:51
Speaker
video came in and while many of us who had studied in convent schools were regular goes to the Hollywood films which were largely screened on Saturdays and Sundays so we were familiar but the large mass of population was completely
00:38:14
Speaker
you know away from the English influences so suddenly when the video came in and they saw a lot of English films and especially the brutal actual films of Bruce Lee and Kirk Douglas and these kinds of films also influenced the producers and directors in India then of course the one-man army that suddenly came in in the form of Amitabh Bachchan
00:38:43
Speaker
Now Bachchan era completely demolished the kind of films that were being made from 50s to 70s. Earlier the films had a lot more of family values, a lot more of emotions, a lot more of softness in them. The stories were basically palatable to people right from
00:39:08
Speaker
a laborer down to the president of the country. They started making films where one man went around demolishing vigilante who gave justice. So this after the emergency when people had been
00:39:23
Speaker
you know denied their basic freedoms by the government for almost about close to about two years or so the explosion on screen of films which were full of violence and full of anti-establishment rhetoric completely gave way to films which were bombastic which were very very valuable and which were very loud
00:39:47
Speaker
Add to that the video and the color television brought in a lot of heavy metal music from the west and people like Aldi Barman, Bapi Larry, Kalyanji Ananji literally drove the nail in the coffin of the good
00:40:08
Speaker
melodic compositions of the 50s and 60s or up till about 70s. So Devanand suddenly found like him Devanand Raj Kapoor, Dilip Kaur of course age had caught up with them Devanand in 80s was somewhere around in his 60s but the lore or I would say the vanity of a
00:40:30
Speaker
film star got into his head. He was such a wonderful human being on a personal level, so humane, so soft, so compassionate, so gentle, extremely caring, extremely sensitive, but somehow he misread the whole cinematic scenario in India.
00:40:47
Speaker
and he continued to play the hero. I think he would have done very well if he had gradually transformed into character roles. This is something that Dilip Kumar did. Dilip Kumar went on to do roles which were worthy of his age.
00:41:03
Speaker
But Devanand somehow or the other continued to play the hero, a romantic hero. That romantic persona somehow took center stage in his head and he was kind of suddenly dropped by most synagogues because he was playing characters which did not suit him both with his age and also for the fact that he was romancing girls who were in their teens on screen. This was most unacceptable to most people.
00:41:30
Speaker
and the problem that also got multiplied was also that a couple of his films with Hema Malini, a film called Amir Garib and a film called Jaaneman, they became big box office successes and this became kind of a trend that he went on now looking for that elusive box office hit which did not come.
00:41:53
Speaker
and so the last 20 odd years of his existence I think his choices were very wrong and since others were not picking him up he started making his own films and since Vijayanan also on a personal level they had some family problems which I would not like to disclose in public because of which the two brothers drifted apart and Vijayanan stopped directing for him and so Devanand suffered and Devanand
00:42:21
Speaker
ultimately was not a very good director he had the sense but he did not read the change in atmosphere in environment the world had changed so he could have actually gone for characterization and played mature or roles which he did not and in a certain way I think he suffered because of that megalomania
00:42:42
Speaker
So his career, it sounds like in late career he made some films that were perhaps less than memorable. Am I right in assuming that for most people though the Devananda of the 1960s is the Devananda people remember? Yes, I think the Devananda of 1960s is what most people remember.
00:43:05
Speaker
and that's what people did of course remember him for his charm for his sophistication for also his public persona also was so nice so graceful he was always above board there were never any talk about him not paying his income tax or doing something silly with any kind of a opposite sex star or something everybody praised him because he was basically very well groomed
00:43:35
Speaker
and was basically a good human being.
00:43:39
Speaker
not many people actually remember any of his films from somewhere around I think 1980s onwards the last 30 years I think they're forgettable films films like Hamna Javan and Lushkar and things like Apple number or gangster charge sheet all these films people I think they just know sunk they sunk only thing is that he made them himself
00:44:09
Speaker
He directed them himself and also because of the fact that he spent his own money. He made in very small budgets and all and he was earning through his own studio that he could actually invest. And that I think is the reason that he went on producing films, went on directing films. But these films were not worth mentioning. They did not in any way add stature to the great Devananda.
00:44:38
Speaker
So let's talk about Devon and the person, the private individual.
Personal Reflections on Devanand
00:44:43
Speaker
You were fortunate enough to meet him many times. Why don't you talk a little bit about how he came across to you and the sorts of things that you saw him do? Well,
00:44:58
Speaker
Personally I think my feeling is that he, Dilip Kumar, people like Rafi Sahm and all were exceptional human beings. They made you feel somewhat great in their presence. I have always felt that most of the film stars and all and I have seen many of them from very close quarters, some of them even whom I have helped on their
00:45:23
Speaker
way to stardom have today totally broken off they've never once they attend the our clients and the zenitz of success is they kind of shun their doors on their friends but this man I was an absolute stranger my first meeting with him was that I just came across some media guy who had his number and I just took it from him and
00:45:43
Speaker
and these were days of landlines and very hesitatingly I dialed that number and from that other side came that very cherubic very stylized and very well-known voice which was very deeply ingrained in my psyche and it said hello Dave here
00:46:07
Speaker
Who is it? So you know for a moment or so I was zapped because I didn't expect this that Zeywaran would be picking up the phone a superstar a celebrity somebody whom I had seen when I was in my nappies from that time onwards so in my 40s and all I went there and I was zapped
00:46:25
Speaker
So it took me a moment and then the sound came again and then I took hold of the microphone and I said, sir, can I, I'm so-and-so and I'm a documentary filmmaker. Can I meet you sometime? He said, of course, why not? And when would you like to come in? So I said, I was literally short of words. I wanted him to say yes and I would have run up to him at that particular moment like a young boy.
00:46:54
Speaker
And he said, well, tomorrow afternoon, four o'clock, would be fine with you. I said yes. And I've always been very particular to, because I've studied in a convent school and I've been very close to Jesuit priests who always kept everything according to a very strict schedule. So I am particular that I reach well in time. And this was a meeting to be with Devananda, the great Devananda. So I reached there at least about half an hour before. When I reached his office,
00:47:21
Speaker
I was zapped that at the moment I gave my card and that man said, yes he's expecting you, he's there.
00:47:26
Speaker
My experience over the years of the film industry, especially the Hindi film industry has been that they keep you waiting even if they're sitting inside because they want to show you their importance. The second thing is that they don't pick up their phones themselves. It's always their servant or their secretary and they will always unnecessarily show off that the star is in a meeting, is in a story session or is in a music session or something of that sort.
00:47:52
Speaker
But he had already told the doorman that this would be the person sending him straight away. And we sat down and we talked. And I was literally floored by the manner in which he hugged me and then spoke to me. And I thought he would give me about 15, 20 minutes. We shared almost three cups of coffee. I spent about close to two hours with him. And he gave me a very nice compliment. He said, son, you
00:48:19
Speaker
speak very well and your language skills are very good. So I told him, I said, Sir, I have my father knew nine languages and I know only four and so I consider myself a misfit in fact.
00:48:34
Speaker
You're saying, so is a great compliment coming from you. It's a great compliment. He said, no, no, this speaks volumes about your parents. And then he got talking to me about my parents and all. And the moment he learned that they were from pre partition India, from Lyle poor, it was like I was talking to our family senior. I said, throughout my life on the six or seven occasions that I met him whenever I used to go down to Bombay and be there for my post production work for long 15 days, 20 days.
00:49:03
Speaker
I would always make it a point to meet him sometime or the other and he was always very accommodative very caring would pour the coffee with his own hands from the kettle put the sugar and small little things which make you feel very nice because a great man making somebody feel not wanted is a regular phenomena but somebody making you feel wanted cared for
00:49:27
Speaker
is something really very special and I would like to mention a couple of other occasions once I had an appointment with him I had told him that I had come to Bombay and I was there for a few years for a few days sorry and he said well yeah let's meet on such and such day on the appointed day we were supposed to meet around three o'clock in the afternoon but at around 11 I got a call
00:49:50
Speaker
And I got a call from him and it said Deepak, I'm sorry, I'm running a fever. It's about 100 degrees or so. And I don't want you to waste your time. Go ahead with any other schedule. Let me take a rest. And once I'm fit and fine another couple of days or so, I'll see to it that we talk to each other and then we meet.
00:50:11
Speaker
after I put my phone down, I introspect it. I was a nobody compared to this phenomena was known the world over and yet this man had that dignity and the you know simplicity and the
00:50:27
Speaker
care and the sensitivity to inform me just because he feels that I have come from outside maybe I can utilize my time better rather than coming all the way to his place trekking about 15-16 kilometers and then finding out that he was not there. Now this was something which literally floored me and the other time was also in 2010 which was my last meeting when
00:50:51
Speaker
I said, I came to know that you have recolored your old film Hamdono, which of course remains a delight till this date for me. He said, yes, I would love to see it. He said, why don't you come to Bombay and join me at the premiere?
00:51:09
Speaker
So I said okay, he gave me the time and date and it was there at infinity in Andheri and on the appointed day I was there but I was a little hesitant and also doubting within myself what would be the kind of reception I would get, whether there would be a place or something of that sort.
00:51:25
Speaker
When I reached infinity the cinema hall I said my name is so and so and Mr. Devanand has asked me to come and I had no invitation card or anything and the man said yes your name is there you please come in and the best thing was when I went in I greeted him I met him everything and all was there
00:51:44
Speaker
And there was a hold of stars from Dharmendra and Salman Khan to Amir Khan. Everybody was there. And in the midst of that entire gathering, he kind of waved at me and he said, look, son, I am a little busy. I'll be preoccupied with press and media, but see to it that you take dinner.
00:52:03
Speaker
this speaks volumes about the character of the man. What a gentleman in such a circumstance where he's overloaded, flash bulbs of the media, the television crews are there, the newspaper reporters are there and in that kind of frenzy he has
00:52:24
Speaker
the time to think of me and I am very sad to say that he was taking me up as an associate director for his next project. Of course I was very happy because he said we will shoot overseas in US and Russia but the last call was he said you move over to Bombay and make it your base and then I'll see to it that you get
00:52:47
Speaker
money from finances for your own project because I had spoken to him that I have a couple of scripts of my own which I'd like to now direct after so many documentaries and all I'd like to make a feature film. So he said learn the ropes because there are lots of things to be learned in making of feature films and I'll
00:53:06
Speaker
lead you by my own hand. So join me. And I was really, really looking up to it. But then came the unfortunate news that he had died in London and that was it. But hats off to this fellow.
00:53:21
Speaker
but he was to me a very cherished human being somebody with whom the moments are held in very dear memory in the finest inner recesses of my mind and somebody from whom I learned a lot about discipline about being gentle about being caring and just about being humane very nice the moments are really cherished forever
00:53:48
Speaker
They're really wonderful anecdotes. And I think, for me, listening to those experiences, it transcends just courtesy. I mean, for me, he was, based on those experiences, must have been a man of significant empathy, a very caring person to take the time and be that thoughtful to all the people around him. It's really wonderful.
00:54:12
Speaker
Yes, he was really somebody who personified his name. Devanand in translated, it's a Hindi word, means the Lord of joy. And I think he was an eternal fountain of joy.
00:54:28
Speaker
So this has been a really wonderful conversation and I've learned a lot. Like I said earlier, this is my first encounter with Davenant's work and this conversation's been really illuminating and I have this appetite now to watch more of his films actually. What are your particular favourites when you look at his body of work? Which of the films that are really special for you?
00:54:52
Speaker
As I said, Guide of course, Hamdono, Te Re Ghar Ke Sam Ne, Fantoosh, because it's a lot of comedy and he really shows his skills there. Then, Andhya, not many people have seen it. Bambai Ka Babu, where I said that it has incestual overtones, this kind of a role being taken by a person and he's also a thief in that particular film.
00:55:16
Speaker
So these are some of my personal favorites. I also loved him in most of the romantic films because he was such a charming lover boy. Somebody really personified joy of romance on screen. And the manner in which he serenaded or quoted the girls was something which really brought kind of
00:55:44
Speaker
Intense, he did not kind of arouse your baser instinct, he kind of aroused a sense of contentment, a sense of fulfillment, a sense of desire and hope in a very positive manner.
00:55:58
Speaker
and I would say most of the people must see these films even a film called Kenare. Kenare is something which I really like. Some people of course suggest Gambler or Johnny Meranam and all but these are commercial successes but I loved him in CID, Kala Bazaar, Kala Pani. Kala Pani is a favorite of mine also because of the fact he and Madhubala that you know goddess of
00:56:28
Speaker
beauty or divine pairing they are on the screen and the chemistry that they exude and in that Kalapani there is one particular duet which I would ask everybody and especially if you are also a Julian wanting to improve your knowledge of Devanand I think you should see that song sequence.
00:56:53
Speaker
What a beautiful picturization by Raj Khosla. What wonderful enactment by the two and wonderful music by S.T. Banman, wonderful lyrics by Majeru Sultan Puri, but extraordinary rendition by Asha Bonsle and Rafi Sahib. Extraordinary rendition and brought alive on screen. So mesmeric, so charming that you would love to rewind all the time and also another all time favorite of mine.
00:57:23
Speaker
Abhinajao Chorke Adilabhi Baranay from Hamdono where he and Sadna, he wants her to stay but the night is you know falling on and the son has said the girl wants to go back home. What a beautiful do it written by Sahir, executed by Jayadev and wonderfully renditioned by again Asha Muslim Raffi Sahib.
00:57:50
Speaker
So these are things which will linger on to me till my dying day. And for me, he was not just a romantic, you know, a metaphor for romance on screen, but also a metaphor of hope and joy. And somebody whom I always cherish in my memories is also a very, very good human being, a fountain of joy, as I said earlier. So I know what I'll be doing right after we record this. I'll be jumping onto YouTube and having a look at those songs that you just suggested.
00:58:18
Speaker
And I will put links in the show notes as well, so that if you're interested in following along, I'll make sure that we link off to those particular songs that Deepak has just mentioned. Oh, I'm flattered, actually. And so nice of you, Julian, some wonderful questions and all, revived my nostalgia, my memories. And I hope I have not been too long, but you can understand my feelings.
00:58:45
Speaker
of a man, my eyes are moist at the moment just remembering him but I really loved him, I really loved him and I really looked up to him. Thank you so much for this conversation, it's been absolutely wonderful. Thank you, thank you so much and I hope everybody enjoys it wherever they listen to it. You've been listening to Conversing Cinema with Deepak Mahan and me, Julian Koldry.
00:59:13
Speaker
We'd love to hear from you. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at podcast at conversingcinema.in. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review or rating, and most importantly, share us with your friends. Conversing Cinema is produced and edited by Julian Koldry and Deepak Mahan. Music is by Deepak Mahan. See you next time.