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Are you in demand in the current job market?
302 Plays5 months ago
Join us as we interview Meredith Jordan & Lindsay Hurst, from Platinum Pacific Partners. We discuss the state of the job market in the Australian finance industry, what skillsets are in demand, whether further education will help you seal the deal and how to leave a lasting impression in an interview.
Alpha Females Invest is a financial investing podcast. With a blend of unique perspectives from both buy and sell sides of the market, we delve into insightful conversations with industry experts from the Australian finance sector.
Whether you're a seasoned finance professional, a student of finance, or someone eyeing a career in the industry, our content is tailored to enrich your understanding and proficiency in navigating the financial landscape.
Each episode is a deep dive into a specific financial topic, spanning equities, debt, cryptocurrency, and the intricacies of investment banking.
Stay informed, stay empowered, and tune in to The Alpha Females Invest for your dose of financial listening.
We aim to promote gender diversity by having at least an equal representation of female and male guests on our show.
Disclaimer: The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speaker. The content in this episode is general in nature, and is for informational purposes only. It should not be construed as financial advice, it has not taken into account your personal financial position or objectives. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional guidance or conduct their own research before making any financial decisions. Please refer to a licensed adviser or tax agent and always read the relevant PDS for full product details. The views and opinions expressed on the podcast do not necessarily reflect those of Alpha Females Invest or its affiliates.
Our theme song and background music is courtesy of @tmykmusic.
Find out more here: https://alphafemalesinvest.com.au/
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Transcript
Introduction and Disclaimers
00:00:01
Speaker
As usual, any information discussed in this podcast is not financial advice. All opinions reflect those of the individuals and this podcast is for educational purposes only. You should always read the PDS and talk to a financial advisor who can consider your personal circumstances before you invest.
00:00:18
Speaker
If you like listening to Alpha Females Invest, we would love your support on Instagram at AlphaFemalesInvest and you can also find us on LinkedIn. And if you do want to find out more information about us and our episodes, you can visit our website at alphafemalesinvest.com.au and please note that episodes may be supported by guests from time to time.
Meet the Hosts: Emily and Maddie
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome back to the Alpha Females Invest podcast. Two females working in the finance industry searching for alpha. My name is Emily. And my name is Maddie. And together we bring diversified perspectives from the buy and sell side of the finance world.
Introducing Guests: Meredith Jordan and Lindsay Hurst
00:00:56
Speaker
Today, we are very excited to welcome our two fantastic guests, Meredith Jordan and Lindsay Hurst, who are joining us from Platinum Pacific Partners, a leading provider of executive search solutions to financial services, corporate and asset management clients in Australia.
00:01:14
Speaker
Meredith's joined Platinum Pacific Partners in 2014 and is responsible for the firm's investment management and listed markets practice. Her portfolio of clients includes superannuation and traditional asset managers, securities research and sales, asset consultants, as well as distribution professionals. Before joining PPP, Meredith spent the majority of her career with both global and boutique search firms managing senior level search assignments across a variety of sectors within financial services.
00:01:44
Speaker
It's two for the price of one today and we're also thrilled to have Lindsay Hirth, who is a director focused on investment management and equities. Lindsay joined PPP in 2021 and she assists with the growth of the firm's listed markets practice. Her portfolio of clients include investment banks in equity research and sales, asset managers and asset owners. Lindsay also leads the corporate investor relations division focusing on ASX listed companies.
00:02:11
Speaker
Prior to joining PPP, she spent 17 years in financial markets having worked across various asset classes, including equities, OTC credit and derivatives, both in Australia and in London. So thank you both for joining us on the show. Thank you for having us. Hello, ladies. Lovely to talk to you. So to kick us off, we start the episode in the same way each time. And we would love to hear about your most embarrassing career moment if you have one.
Career Bloopers and Lessons Learned
00:02:40
Speaker
Oh look, we were talking about this earlier. It's a funny one because clearly there's those obvious things where, you know, you sleep in the street in front of a really important client or I was telling Lindsay about how I was in the middle of a really important presentation and my dress split.
00:02:56
Speaker
You know, things like that, always fun. But actually, the most embarrassing, I guess, career moments for me is when I've not been prepared going to a meeting, you know, caught out when I didn't know something or caught on the spot that is mortifying, to say the least. So that would probably be, and that's an ongoing thing, right? I mean, it's a
00:03:18
Speaker
continually trying to make sure we're on top of everything that's going on in the market from a people movement perspective and of course the themes perspective. So yeah, people probably don't realize in search, a lot of our work actually is research and talking to people versus just hiring people. So being a specialist in our fields, and I guess if you're not prepared, you can't be a specialist.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yes, and to back that up, we were having a good laugh about that. I was exchanging an embarrassing interview moment earlier in my career where I was going into level 28 of a very big investment bank, brand new shoes on, beautiful high heels, and I slipped straight over on the marble floor.
00:04:03
Speaker
on my hands and knees. It was humiliating. I spit the back of my skirt. I had to walk out of there in tears. It was horrible. But that's nothing in comparison to being underprepared for meetings. And I think it's a thematic that will carry on throughout this podcast. And it continues, as Meredith said, it continues to be something we constantly speak to our candidates about as well.
00:04:29
Speaker
Sounds great. Thanks, guys. Really looking forward to getting into all your advice for any potential listeners as well as we move on through the podcast.
Inside Platinum Pacific Partners
00:04:40
Speaker
But to start, I thought it might be interesting to get a bit of background on PP and what exactly your business does for those listeners that might not be too familiar. Awesome. No, we'd love to do that. We are a search firm.
00:04:55
Speaker
So effectively, we are a business that companies will come to us and they will partner with us and we will share research around certain industries and actively headhunt people for those roles in those industries. So as a business, we're 16 people. We have five areas of discipline. So we're primarily in financial markets. So we'll cover investment banking, corporate advisory. We'll do all unlisted investments. So VC, PE, real estate, infrastructure and debt.
00:05:24
Speaker
The area I run, of which Lindsay's in the team, we cover all listed market investments, so equities and debt, buy, sell and sell. We also do all fundraising, capital raising across institutional wholesale and retail clients, as well as marketing, and also the asset owner world.
00:05:42
Speaker
We also cover finance and operations. We also cover business support. So we have individuals that are specialists in those verticals. But I guess that's a bit of background on us. We are, I guess, known as a bit more a boutique business than a larger one.
00:05:58
Speaker
But I was just going to say that I think most of our audience probably would have heard of PPP. And if you haven't, I'm not really sure where you've been hiding because they are definitely a dominant force in the market. So moving on just to get a bit of a background. I mean, I think you kind of touched on it there, Meredith, but just about your roles at PPP and kind of what led you to get to where you are today in terms of recruitment and your focus areas.
00:06:26
Speaker
Really good question. It's really funny because the skill set that you need to be a headhunter is actually really... It's un-unique. You have to be good at listening, you have to be good at speaking, you have to be good at writing. It's about effectively providing solutions for your clients. There's a certain amount of empathy that's involved in that.
00:06:48
Speaker
And so I guess it's anyone that really enjoys working with people should be greater recruitment. And then it's about marrying your interests with respect to the industry you're working in. So my background, as we discussed before, I was in real estate. I loved it. It was great. It was a sales role. The people were fun. It was deal by deal. It was really great. I never thought I would move into headhunting at all. And then I thought, let's add in the paper. I thought, oh, that sounds interesting. I'll give it a whirl. And here we are today.
00:07:18
Speaker
So most of our business actually has made up of individuals that have had different lives. We've had accountants that have moved into headhunting. We've had people in markets that's moved to headhunting. We've actually got a wonderful gal that was a correct Swiss in HR team. She's now joined the team. Obviously, one of the biggest coups we had was pulling Lindsay out of markets and bringing her into the team. That's been awesome. Took me a long time to get her over the line.
00:07:44
Speaker
little moment, a little moment when I saw a little opportunity to sell the dream and here we are today and it's been a great transition because of course she brings the market knowledge and would have also hired people within her role at CLSA. So if there's anyone out there, you know, if you're worthy, keep out headhunting. It's actually a really rewarding role because in most cases you play a really important part of their lives and usually it's a very positive experience.
00:08:09
Speaker
And certainly, from my perspective, coming from markets, I still love investing. I love being in the market. But there's something lovely about helping your former colleagues, clients, your listed companies who I used to deal with in corporate access all the time, helping them build out their businesses. Because you get to know them along your career journey. And you understand their culture. You understand how they work. And it's lovely when you become the go-to person
00:08:37
Speaker
or go to firm and helping them continue to build that out. It's really rewarding and it allows you to still stay within the market. Amazing. It's definitely great to hear how important relationship building is in your role and also as Meredith touched on, being able to be empathetic to support your clients.
00:08:59
Speaker
I thought it might be interesting to touch on maybe what the model of a recruiter is and maybe how recruiters are incentivized and those aspects of the role.
Recruitment Models and Job Market Shifts
00:09:11
Speaker
It's a good question. There's three types of recruiters or headhunters really in the market. So there is what we call a recruiter pyramid, if you think about it in that sort of descriptive sense. The top of the pyramid is what we would consider the global search firm. So Hydrix, Corn Ferry, Spencer Stewart, Russell Reynolds, Yvonne Zender. So they are businesses that sit all around the world and they usually are
00:09:37
Speaker
working on very, very senior appointments. So CEO upwards. They can be heads of divisions. They can be every industry, not so much specific on one. And their, I guess, key service offering is that they can relocate people around the world. We sit in the next part of the pyramid, which goes down and that's more executive search. So it's usually vertical, industry specific. You come to us for a specific role. We live and breathe those verticals.
00:10:02
Speaker
Both the global search firms and us usually work either exclusively only or via retainer. So we would be paid upfront to work on an assignment which effectively pays for the research we do and I guess all the background exercises to start the search and then of course we're acting in partnership with our clients all the time and then we agree targets to go and head hunt and we will actually go and do that and then we will obviously bring those individuals to the table, we'll qualify them
00:10:32
Speaker
We'll prepare them for interviews. We'll run them through the interview schedule. We'll get them ready. We'll make sure when they resign, that's successful. There's no counters, that sort of stuff. And then we get paid at the end. So it's usually a set fee based on, I guess, the candidate's first year salary, whether it's a base in super or if there's any bonuses. So it really varies.
00:10:54
Speaker
But in most instances, a retainer up front had been paid on success. And then within the lower part of the recruitment pyramid is your classic, I guess I call them Wall Street search firms or recruit firms. It's my UK terminology. So Michael Page, Hudson, Robert Walters, that world, and they are great, but they will usually have so many areas of coverage and they'll work with big clients.
00:11:21
Speaker
So they'll do a lot of areas and some very much in detail, like ours, but some will advertise and match the CV to the advertisements. So different levels of, I guess, solutions that our clients can access, but that's typically how I describe or recruit any single search in the market.
00:11:41
Speaker
I should say that this is an episode that has been in the works with Lindsay since 2021, I think. I'm glad that we're finally able to have this discussion. I guess the context of the conversation initially was what is happening with the job market and where are we at in the cycle. It would be really interesting to understand that given the last three years, there have been all kinds of ups and downs in the job market. It feels like every week it's shifting.
00:12:11
Speaker
I guess, do you have any views on how the job market is looking at the moment and any changes you've seen maybe since COVID or even just in the past year or so? This is something that we're talking about a lot.
00:12:27
Speaker
We have had a phenomenal amount of change in the market in the last couple of years and very unprecedented change. COVID was like nothing we've ever seen before. The amount of hiring was bizarre, to say the least. It was extremely challenging and extremely rewarding if you got it right.
00:12:46
Speaker
usually when you're working on assignments you'll be talking to candidates and they'll probably be looking at one or two other things because they're active and they want to be, you know, open to opportunities but we were calling people and they were looking at eight, you know. I used the description that I felt like I was playing a game of NFL and I was the blocker trying to get my quarterback over the line. Every single lob of other offer coming on, like, look at that, I'm out of the way, I'm going to try and get my person over the line. It was full on.
00:13:13
Speaker
So, you know, that was the last, that was what, 2020, mid-2020 to mid-2023, I'd say. But now, now really we're in a normal market. So what does that mean? We normally have great roles in the market. So there's always businesses growing, changing, resizing, cutting, like it's always the case.
00:13:38
Speaker
Clearly, with last year's market volatility and just interest rates going up and changes in terms of sentiment in the market, we saw some significant slowdowns after COVID, which actually was kind of a good thing. We couldn't keep up with that pace. The pace was ridiculous. And to give you an idea, I joined
00:14:00
Speaker
PPP in 21. And, you know, it was one of the key things was supposed to be a work-life balance, you know, play. And it absolutely was not that. The pace was out of control. We had closed borders. We had passport, visa backlogs, rather. We had two new entrants, major players into the market. It was insane.
00:14:27
Speaker
I've never seen anything like it. I came back from England, you know, 607. God, I sound so old. And I went into a bull market and it was crazy fun. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. Oh, you'd like to be an analyst. You can go there. Oh, I didn't realize that you also could build models. Oh, you'd like to be an analyst. Okay, you can go there. Like it was weird. But this was different. This was like nothing else. It was like a massive brawl for talent.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah, so the war was absolutely real. But now because we've had, you know, all these changes and frankly, last year we had all the global investment banks having headcount for reasons for an entire year, over a year. I mean, that's pretty unprecedented, actually. And we've had all these cuts.
00:15:11
Speaker
So, it has meant that a lot of the pace has come out. A lot of the, I guess, the happy to move and, you know, lack of fear in moving is gone. Everyone's very nervous about being the last one in, first one out. The cost of living is certainly in Australia and the pressures on that have really affected people's desire and what have changed at this time too. So, you know, that's
00:15:35
Speaker
All of these factors have slowed down our market. But what I would say is that when this happens, all the big firms, they close their doors or shut up shop in terms of hiring, but all the bootings go crazy. So for us, it just feels normal. We've got busy areas of pockets of our business that are growing, some aren't. That's actually pretty standard for us in any one year. So I would just say we've returned to the norm.
00:16:02
Speaker
And to that point, you know, a lot of the boutiques who wanted to hire during those first couple of years that I became a head hunter in 2122, they simply couldn't compete with the wage push inflation that was happening because of this war for talent. And this week alone, I've met with two boutiques who have said to me, Lindsay, I think this is now our time. We're starting to see the heats come out. We finally can re-enter. And this is our opportunity to pick up, hopefully, some great talent.
00:16:29
Speaker
And so it's just reflective, it's a reflective anecdote of what Barrington's just said. And on that, you know, salaries have come off. People who've been made redundant for no fault of their own, unfortunately aren't going back into the market at the same rate they were on. Firms are holding tight for an individual at the signed off budget they have. We can't just go and get an extra five or 10 anymore.
00:16:58
Speaker
We had situations where individuals knew the market was so hot and would go into their employers in groups and almost pressure, pressure gain their employers for pay increases because they knew other institutions were paid for them. We've never seen that behavior before.
00:17:19
Speaker
really interesting. It did actually happen globally. This is not just an Australian thing. I speak to peers globally, but that is not the market anymore. We are very much back in what I would consider a normal cycle of hiring.
Emerging Trends in Finance: ESG and Sustainability
00:17:35
Speaker
What are you both seeing at the moment in this, I guess, more normalized market in terms of
00:17:42
Speaker
new focus areas for talent, maybe that's in ESG or Quant. Yeah, what skill sets do you think firms are looking at? Yeah, it's an excellent question. I think, you know, it won't surprise you to know the key areas, of course, ESG and sustainability. And you know this, I mean, this is your world. You both understand this being what you do for a living.
00:18:05
Speaker
I think with the mandatory reforms and disclosure requirements coming out, July 1 this year around climate disclosures, you're going to continue to see an increased importance and demand for talent that understands the ESG and sustainability side of things. So therefore, what are we seeing on our side? We're seeing
00:18:31
Speaker
Funds and listed companies coming to us wanting those who understand ESG have the ability to work with data, AI, being able to manipulate large amounts of data. So that's a key thematic we're seeing rolling out from outside. Energy transition, private equity, private debt, huge.
00:18:58
Speaker
as well as alternatives. It won't surprise you to know also that a lot of funds continue to expand their product offering going into global. And whether that's developed or developing markets, you know, we're seeing this to be a continued area of growth. So given all of that, can you just comment on some remuneration trends that you're seeing in the Australian market and what candidates should be expecting?
Remuneration Trends and Career Advice
00:19:28
Speaker
The only thing I'd say is that still, if you're a very high performing individual, firms are willing to make attractive packages to win you over. That's certainly always the case. I just feel like through COVID, there was almost this
00:19:46
Speaker
expectation that if you're going to move, you know, it had to be for a significant pay increase. Otherwise, you know, why would you do that? Versus I think the attitude really that one should be thinking about is, you know, is this role right for my career? Does this position be nice for the next phase of my career? If you're good at what you do, the money comes.
00:20:05
Speaker
So I think the money is still there. I feel like it's more of a question around doing a great role, doing a good job in your role, being a great corporate citizen, showing humility and patience and empathy and being highly professional. And I think if you do all of those, the money will come.
00:20:26
Speaker
Maybe to pivot a bit, Lindsay, when we were planning this episode with you, you brought up this interesting concept of hard to want and something I'd never heard before. Could you please talk us through what you mean by this?
00:20:40
Speaker
Sure. Look, this is a term that I guess comes from earlier years in the dating scene. The old comment of, you know, when you're playing hard to get, playing hard to get versus hard to want. I think now that I've moved over to executive search, I do use this term a lot.
00:21:07
Speaker
there is a very fine line between the two and what I'm talking about there is sometimes we meet with candidates and they're great candidates but they will go in you know to potential employers and instead of being forthright and confident it can almost come across as a ransom list of demands
00:21:35
Speaker
they almost forget what they can bring to the organization. I want flexibility, I want this, me, me, me, me, me. Well, what about, and that's when I say hard to want, what about what you can bring to the organization? And it's a fine balance sometimes.
00:21:53
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. I think particularly in where we've come from a market where candidates have been offered everything on a platter and now we're back to more normal conditions, there's probably an adjustment in attitude and expectations that probably needs to happen. Yes. Yeah. And you've nailed it. It's funny though too, right? I mean, we're a very small market here and we've gone through so much growth in so many industries. So, you know,
00:22:21
Speaker
Employers do want to hold onto great stuff. They do want to give these great extra incentives to their staff members. It's just the way you ask and the way you present yourself. And I think, again, I don't want to harp on about this, but it's something that I do really believe in. It is just how you really hold yourself in the interviews and, I guess, empathy and warmth and having conviction to your ability. I think all of those things together are wonderful.
00:22:50
Speaker
I guess recipe for success when you're trying to obviously put your best foot forward. I think that's good advice for all of us to keep in mind that you know it's a two-way
00:23:00
Speaker
two-way contract. You're looking for the best opportunity for you, but they're also looking for the best hire. Trickling on from that and trying to be the best candidate for the role, I think a lot of us go through a period of, should I be doing more study? I know that I must just love pain and stress because I'm continuously doing more study. But I guess ultimately,
00:23:25
Speaker
Is this going to benefit our career, right? Like, are we going to get an ROI on the time and the expense to do additional work, whether that be CFA or whether that be MBA? Do you think that that's a valuable thing to have as a candidate or is it more about on the job experience? And we can talk about it potentially, obviously at the junior level, but even at the more senior level as well.
00:23:48
Speaker
I mean, look, I'll quickly jump in there. I actually think it depends on the industry, and I think it depends on the hiring manager. I've got some really awesome clients who truly believe that an MBA from the States is the most valuable, I guess, component you can bring to a resume. They will fall over hands with this for people who have done that and come back with these insights. I've got some here that really,
00:24:13
Speaker
just feel that I guess it's the on-the-job experience and the on-the-job, I guess, professionalism and what this person brings to the role is really important for them. So there's no right or wrong. And I think when you're exploring these components, it's all about doing your due diligence and planning your career. There's no point doing an MBA or the CFA or the master's if you don't feel it's going to take you to where you want to be.
00:24:40
Speaker
So, sure, if you're an analyst, of course, the CFA is extremely well regarded. And yes, it might end up meaning that you might get paid a bit more because you've done it. Or you may get the job and you pick someone to depose because you've done it, and therefore, other successful candidate, 100%. That is certainly something that we definitely see. We all have clients say that they want a CFA, some will say they don't. They just want money making ideas, Meredith, that's all I want. Someone who just picks stocks every day. Make me money, Meredith, money, you know? It just depends.
00:25:08
Speaker
So, it's all about planning, it's all about thinking where you'd like to go and finding other profiles that have done this before you that you can look to and say, is this the right pathway? How did they get there? Talking to individuals like us to understand if that would make sense or not for whatever, I guess, pathway the individual is looking to take.
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah, and I totally agree with Meredith, but one thing I would say is I don't think you'll ever be excluded from a role for over education.
00:25:43
Speaker
And so, whereas the opposite is true. And so I don't think there's ever such a thing as, oh, I wasted my time doing a CFA or an MBA or going and getting the ESG certificate from the CFA course or doing the Cambridge ESG. You will not be excluded before a role by having those qualifications. So that's my simple view on that. Thanks, guys. That's their really helpful insights. And yeah, very interesting to hear that it
00:26:13
Speaker
really depends on the hiring manager and just remembering what's going to be the best thing for your path.
00:26:19
Speaker
You've got great oversight across both the buy side and sell side. I think for a lot of potential listeners who might be on the sell side, they might be thinking about shifting to the buy side, grass is always greener, et cetera. It would be great to hear your perspectives on the differences between both, maybe in terms of obviously role and lifestyle and remuneration.
00:26:49
Speaker
Sure. Look, you have hit the nail on the head there, Maddie. I think there is a misnomer that going from sell side to buy side is greener pastures. What I often say to candidates looking to make the switch is that is a complete misnomer. I think moving to the buy side, the money is typically invested
00:27:16
Speaker
all the time. And to quote a really old school movie that's probably older than both of you, you know, money never sleeps. So when you're fully invested at 90 to 100% and suddenly, you know, it's after market and your company's had a massive downgrade and, you know, it's a substantial holding and you just lost 30%. And, you know, it's absolutely
00:27:40
Speaker
a very stressful and responsible position because ultimately you're in charge of and the custodian of people's retirement funds you know so it is absolutely not a work-life balance play it is a very stressful role you are having to report to consultants you are having to come up with monthly performance figures and so you know in the context of planning a career I think
00:28:04
Speaker
You know, both roles have huge level of intensity to them. They're also highly enjoyable. And if you love markets, you love markets. I think remuneration, again, it depends on where you are, what you do. And, you know, if the only reason you are there is for money, you're there for the wrong reason in the first instance. I totally agree with that.
00:28:27
Speaker
I also just think that, you know, money isn't free. If you're going to make good money, you have to work hard and you're going to take on pressure. And if you're going from the sell side to the buy side, guess what? All of a sudden you're taking on the burden of investing all of our parents' money out of super. That's what you're doing. You're looking at us all down the street and wearing that burden. Oh, I'm responsible for your retirement. Like, it's a big deal. And if you're not taking that seriously, I think, you know, you're in the wrong role.
00:28:54
Speaker
But look, the sell side is awesome. It's fast moving. It's front of the market. There's a lot of, I guess, cachet in being a really knowledgeable analyst about a certain part of the market. You get access to awesome corporates and CEOs within Australia, as you do on the buy side. But you become more of a specialist in the field and you can own that.
00:29:16
Speaker
And that kind of becomes your core selling point, whereas I guess in the buy side, if you're really good at picking stocks and making money, that's your core selling point. So they are different. They're the similar skill set, but again, it depends on how ultimately you're wired and what you're interested in, but you will work hard in both roles. Yeah. And one thing I would just jump in and say, I mean,
00:29:38
Speaker
One thing on my side, I was bought into Platinum Pacific Partners to work on as the sell side specialist, given that's my background. I also work on buy side, but also to build out the listed company investor relations side of our business. So that's another element where you may go from sell side to buy side or in the reverse. And then at some point,
00:30:05
Speaker
If it comes that you want to stay in the markets, but you want to try something else, a lot of candidates will move into listed company investor relations, which again, you're in markets, you're a trusted advisor responsible for messaging to the capital markets community. The message from the CEO and CFO, hugely interesting role also.
International Career Moves and Experience
00:30:31
Speaker
Yeah, really good points. I have said a few times that, you know, on the sell side, you're paid for your ideas and your thoughts, right? So it, you know, preferably you're right, but it's not the essential thing that you're right. Whereas on the buy side, it's be right, whether it's for the wrong or right reasons, right? Because you are taking that responsibility of managing people's money. So definitely different pressures. Okay, this is a selfish question. So an important,
00:30:59
Speaker
topic that I think has been really, really present, particularly since COVID. It feels like maybe the last 12 to 18 months in particular, but there's the desire for people to move outside of Australia and to move to an overseas market.
00:31:16
Speaker
I guess it would be really interesting to understand what you've seen in terms of the transition to moving overseas and then subsequently moving back again. So how easy is it to get a job or a role overseas? You know, are Australian candidates desirable in an offshore market? And then does having that international experience make it easy to come back to a role in Australia or are the experiences actually not very useful to each other and it's actually not going to be a career move?
00:31:45
Speaker
Really, really relevant question because we talk about it every day. Again, I'm going to keep going back to this planning piece and planning your interviews, planning your life, planning your career, failing to plan it, preparing to fail. Look, what makes you valuable is either knowledge of a certain area, if you're an analyst,
00:32:04
Speaker
whether that be European equities, a certain sector, if you're in sales or relationships, it's a client base, the more you develop experience in a certain part of the market, that is where your value is effectively comes from.
00:32:18
Speaker
So, if you are wanting to work overseas, you have to think about where your value is. If you have only been looking at Australian equities for five to six years and you go to London, guess what? No one's looking at Australian equities in London. They are looking, though, at maybe a sub-sector of what you've looked at, small caps. Yeah, that's transferable. Sure, small cap analysis is the same everywhere.
00:32:42
Speaker
I mean, loosely speaking, and that is a transferable skill set. If you are a high-performing research salesperson and your relationships are here, guess what? You're not going to have any relationships in London or New York. You could plan with your employer to go and work in London and York and come home and do a rotation that way. Absolutely, that works. It's awesome. People have great careers with institutions doing that, but broadly speaking, it isn't transferable.
00:33:09
Speaker
So, where we see, I guess, the most success for individuals is either if they move within a company and they're developing experience here, and they move with the company, and they develop experience over there, and they've got some sort of, I guess, leverage on both regions that they can play to. If they've gone overseas a bit earlier, so say 25 to 30, that's a great time to go to London or America, really cut your teeth, understand the industry, learn,
00:33:38
Speaker
what's happening in the world, come back not so experienced that a business can still invest in you, but you've got some core skills. Let's say you are an analyst in New York, a long short hedge fund, guess what? That analysis, that stock picking is still relevant for our majority long only market here. You're not so old that you're going to be really expensive in terms of price, expect a certain premium to experience you. This sort of thing works well. Otherwise, it is a little bit difficult to come back.
00:34:04
Speaker
We meet many people who have great careers, you know, want to come home between 35 and 45 for family and high school and things, and they just can't find the role that they want to do at the salary that they're happy to accept.
00:34:19
Speaker
So there's a few components that you need to take into account. Either go early and develop some really great experience when you're young. I actually went to London when I was 21. I came home at 26, which is kind of perfect because then I could develop my whole career here. She went overseas a bit later. Where did you go? 25, 26? In 27 actually. In 27 and then she was back by 30 and then invested again in her career in Australia.
00:34:43
Speaker
So it's just a choice. And it's just knowing that the world is massive out there. And there are so many more people. The population, obviously, globally compared to Australia, is vast. And it's massively competitive. So you've got to think what your value is in order to work overseas and come home with that skill set. Yes. And further to that point, we often deal with candidates who have been living offshore for 15 and 20 years.
00:35:13
Speaker
And it is incredibly hard to reintegrate when your relationships and your whole world essentially is then in a foreign market. And so we often counsel those candidates explaining that they do have to be patient. And it can take quite a long time to transition back.
00:35:35
Speaker
When people come back, I've had someone out of a hedge fund and Paul didn't know, wasn't even thinking about coming back, came back to Australia.
00:35:44
Speaker
I hated it. I wasn't ready to come back. It was opportunity legacy thought, wow, I've never seen those opportunities. And yeah, they're looking for my unique skill set. And it lasted nine months, and then they moved back to London. The other element to that is that New York and London, or Hong Kong even, they're markets that are so much bigger than Australia. And sometimes you do find that the move back to Sydney or Melbourne, it's
00:36:10
Speaker
you know, a lot smaller. It's not as exciting. There's not as much going on. So we definitely hear a little bit about that as well. It might be a good time to discuss what you guys see as the key differences between covering domestic equities versus global equities, like domestic being based in Australia. And if you think there are any particular skill sets that make one analyst better suited to either
00:36:40
Speaker
way I think about this.
00:36:43
Speaker
If you're covering domestic equities, you're typically based in Australia, covering companies. We do see a lot of those unless come directly from Celsa. Emily, like yourself, you once came from Morgan Stanley. Am I not correct there from memory? That's a very typical transition. There can be small caps, there can be large caps.
00:37:13
Speaker
Then we also have funds that focus on microcap and of the ASX. Okay, so that's that side. Then we have global equities analysts. Now, interestingly, they can be based in Australia covering global equities. That can be Asia X Japan, it can be the full Asia suite, it can be developed markets or developing markets. It just depends on the funds mandate.
00:37:40
Speaker
What I would say is covering global equities from Australia
00:37:46
Speaker
It can be particularly developed markers, i.e. European names or US names. It means that you are keeping some pretty crazy hours and that's why you see a lot of those funds decide to relocate those PMs or senior analysts offshore so they're not awake at two o'clock in the morning. Does that make sense?
00:38:11
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, lived experience. I can tell you that the time zones are not fun and you're right. You think about being on the buy side and there's things going on all the time as it is, yet alone our market is on our time zone. Then you're going to have to think about, okay, what's happening overseas while I'm asleep. I can imagine that would be challenging.
00:38:35
Speaker
The basic skill set, however, remains. You are somebody that we identify as, I am passionate about stocks and I'm a small cap.
00:38:48
Speaker
I'm a tech animal. I love developed markets. I've gotten a video. I've got Apple. I know XYZ. I know about consumer in Europe. I own LVMH and L'Oreal. The skill set is still a very hungry market animal at the core. It's just dependent on what subsectors and what market and what mandate you are covering. Great.
00:39:17
Speaker
Now, we've touched a little bit on hard to want and certain aspects of the market which are desirable at the present, but you obviously see candidates day in, day out.
Candidate Qualities: What Matters Most?
00:39:30
Speaker
I'm sure both good candidates and maybe not so good, but it would be interesting to get your opinion on what you think makes a great candidate.
00:39:39
Speaker
Is it purely the skill set or are there other areas of personality traits that may make a good employee that people want to hire? For me, it's attitude and that won't surprise anyone. Responsiveness.
00:39:58
Speaker
transparency. So if I'm dealing with a candidate who is in a process, they just have the basics. But you would expect in anything you do in life, actually, they respond to your messages, phone calls, texts, emails. They're transparent. Are you in any other processes that I should know about?
00:40:19
Speaker
You know, there's no point in lying. It's a very small industry. It's just a very basic style of communication, transparency, responsiveness and just being well managed and attitude. And for me, that's the perfect candidate and it means that we will have a long, long relationship.
00:40:38
Speaker
through your disciple, through your career. I think that's everything from my side narrative. Yeah. I mean, I love all of that. What I would also say is a perfect candidate for me, someone who makes my life super easy. Really clear CV with all the relevant information in a nice order with no typos.
00:40:59
Speaker
I love someone who's done their due diligence and knows what they want to do in some sense. It's okay if I've got other ideas for them. That's okay. One thing actually Lindsay and I were talking about is we're on the phone all the time. We are in meetings all the time. We are chatting with people all the time. It's really hard for us to do callbacks and things. It's really good. Email is a great someone who's willing to work with us on our platforms. That's awesome.
00:41:23
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, ultimately, I love people who apply themselves. I love people who've shown continued success in their career, whether that be sport, music, art, you know, really challenge themselves. I love this sort of type person because I feel like those attributes, again, show someone who's ambitious and driven and
00:41:44
Speaker
is continually evolving, and that's certainly what the financial markets are. So yeah, so attitude is a huge one for me. I've mentioned it before, but Lindsay really nailed that. But again, just thinking about your whole profile and how we're looking at it, both from a written perspective CV, you're linked in. Gosh, if you've got any private social accounts, make sure they're private. We've got Google you, we want to see you.
00:42:09
Speaker
skiing somewhere and we're not in a bar, whatever else, because all of our employers can see you as well, be thinking really about your career as a whole and managing that package. Awesome. And I think you've both mentioned the idea of good corporate citizen before, which is another good point to remember.
When to Change Jobs?
00:42:32
Speaker
Knowing when to look at opportunities or take a leap can be quite difficult. And I'm sure you're guiding so many candidates through the decision making process of shifting their careers or maybe shifting firms within the same type of career path. When do you think it is the right time for a candidate to leave their current role and start looking at other opportunities?
00:43:00
Speaker
Sure. So Meredith and I were speaking about this earlier and we, I'm condensing this down. The short response to this is it's when you're feeling stale. What does that mean? When you're not learning, you're not growing, you're not challenging yourself. And I think as soon as that realization happens, that's when you've got to start being open to new conversations.
00:43:26
Speaker
I've said to, you know, not everybody jumps out of it in the morning to go to work, but you've got to have a certain kind of desire to want to be at work, you know, and create a great day for yourself and do some really interesting things. And so if you're not doing that, then I think you're going to give it style. One thing I also say is sometimes, and this is important in the context of a market where
00:43:53
Speaker
It's probably not paying at the same levels historically because it's just a tougher market. I think what's important is the premium you put on your happiness and who you work with. Just because you didn't get an extra $10,000 or $5,000 or whatever the percentage is you think you are worth for the work that you put in that year,
00:44:18
Speaker
Is that enough to justify potentially leaving an organization to go and work with people when culturally, you know, I love going to work every day. I vibe off the people I work with. I enjoy that. You know, it would take a lot for me to have to move. And I've thought about this over the trajectory of my career and I counsel executives on this all the time. I think you do need to put a premium on the culture that you work within.
00:44:48
Speaker
Everyone loves an interview tip from, you know, first job through to senior director. So let's take the negative and what should we be avoiding doing in an interview? So again, trying to wing it. It's never going to work. Never wing interviews. You've got to go in with something that you know you're going to say. So let's talk about that.
00:45:12
Speaker
I always tell my candidates, why don't we pretend that you're the interviewer and you're going to interview yourself for the role. What questions, if you were the client, would you ask yourself like, oh, good question, Meredith. And usually it's always, okay, so tell us, tell us about yourself. That'll be number one question. Number two, why is the role of interest? Number three, what do you know about us? Number four, okay, cool. What can I tell you?
00:45:37
Speaker
You know, this is how it starts. So you could literally write down the bait and what you want to say and memorize it and have the first 20 minutes of the interview done going perfectly. By that point, you're totally relaxed in the groove and the next part of the interview is going to be fine. So absolutely don't wing interviews ever. Which goes back to the very first point when you asked us about embarrassing moments of your career.
00:46:04
Speaker
It's when you're not prepared. Oh yeah, I know. When you're half asleep and you haven't had a couple of coffee or a tea and you're having something really challenging. But yeah, no, don't just don't, don't wing it. The other one, the other one, if I may jump in Meredith, is I think not listening. Talking to other people in the interview as well, don't do that. Usually we meet people who are all great. If anything they're just a bit shy because they're a bit nervous. That's why I say
00:46:34
Speaker
Don't be. All the questions are the same. Just an aside, do you attend the interviews with your candidate or do you just get the feedback following the interview? Aren't you lots of role play?
00:46:48
Speaker
I do. And I do it on the spot as well. They don't even know it's coming. I'm like, right, I can't say, um, what are you going to say in the interview? Okay, let's do it now. Right. Thanks. The reality, the reality is a lot of candidates, myself, Meredith, all of us here included, when we're in an interview situation, we do sometimes get nervous and you know, I hate a pregnant pause.
00:47:11
Speaker
but it's one of the key interviewing techniques out there where they will deliberately use silence. And then what happens is the candidates talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. So you've just got to be comfortable, slow things down, listen to the question, concisely answer it and end.
Conclusion and Career Tips
00:47:40
Speaker
You've shared some fantastic advice to our listeners today, Meredith and Lindsay, thank you so much. And I'm sure there are plenty of listeners now, perhaps contemplating if they should be looking for a new challenge. So how should a candidate get in touch with you if they are looking to take a new step in their career or equally, given your wonderful reputation in the market, I'm sure companies would be interested in getting in touch with you.
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we love talking to anybody and everybody, so always delighted to connect. And like I say, email is awesome, because effectively it's our to-do list. We always just work through that every day. LinkedIn's also good to, like, the message is hard, because our inboxes are crazy busy, so I would probably prefer email. Otherwise, you know, if we're available to have a call, great, but email would be awesome. That's probably the most efficient way.
00:48:39
Speaker
Fantastic. And now we'd like to finish every episode in the same way. And that is, I mean, you've shared, all you've been doing is sharing career tips to be honest, but let's round it out. It doesn't have to be related to recruiting on new roles. It could be a personal lived experience. What would you say is your top career tip for listeners? You know what, I think it is. I think this has been open to opportunities.
00:49:07
Speaker
I think it's just obviously doing your best every day that you can. But if someone says to you, hey, do you want to come and do a second comment over here for three months? Go grab it. Someone says, hey, we're doing this networking afternoon. We'd love you to go and talk to some people about what you do. Go do that.
00:49:25
Speaker
just making sure that you're not closing any doors. And if you're offered opportunities just because you're being valued internally or you're doing a great job or people love having you around because you've got a wonderful personality, run with them. Run as fast as you can and go as far as you can. That's probably the key one, I would say. I think added to that, I totally agree, but I think added to that is remembering the market
00:49:51
Speaker
is full and so always treat people with respect, always be well-mannered, being a good corporate citizen is so important and relationships are key.
00:50:03
Speaker
Yep. Amazing advice to round out the episode. As I said, this is one that we've been wanting to do for so long and I think it definitely lived up to the expectations. So I appreciate both you, Meredith and Lindsay jumping on and chatting with us and hopefully our listeners are going to take a lot away from this. So if anyone wants to get in touch, please do reach out to Platinum Pacific Partners. You can reach Meredith or Lindsay on LinkedIn, or I'm sure their emails are readily available.
00:50:32
Speaker
everywhere. So please do reach out if you just want to have a chat and thanks for listening. Thank you for listening to the Alpha Females Invest podcast. If you liked this episode, we would love your support on Instagram. You can find us at Alpha Females Invest. You could also leave a podcast review, but most importantly, please keep listening. See you next time.