Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jane Williams. This is the Red Eye Podcast. You can hear our live broadcast on Saturday mornings from 10 till noon at 100.5 FM in the Lower Mainland.
Speaker: Coming up in this episode, Lorraine Chisholm talks with Wilbur Turner about why it's so important to get the facts about the SOGI 123 program in BC schools.
Speaker: A program in BC schools that helps kids navigate gender and sexuality has become a prime target of conservative politicians. In an article called SOGI123, What It Is, What It Isn't, and Why the Truth Matters, the author lays out the facts behind BC's sexual orientation and gender identity framework. He says the research is clear, the politics are not, and real families are paying the price. Wilbur Turner is founder and president of Advocacy Canada, and he brings a lifetime of dedication and passion to the fight for 2SLGBTQIA plus equality. He writes on Queerly Beloved with Wilbur Turner at QueerGranddad.substack.com, and I've reached him today in Kelowna. Hello, Wilbur.
Speaker: Hi, Lorraine. Thank you very much for joining me. I am happy to be here and to be talking about this important topic. Now, why did you write this article?
Speaker: Well, it was really clear to me when the BC leadership candidates started their platforms and the focus seems to be on culture wars.
Speaker: And top of that list is their attack on our education system where it supports queer kids, 2SLGBTQIA plus kids.
Speaker: And they refer to it as repealing SOGI. And this is really concerning because SOGI is not what they're representing it to be. And they seem to be appealing to a certain base of people who also don't understand what it is.
Speaker: Let's look at the facts then. Explain what SOGI 123 is and what it is not Well, first of all, it's a framework that was developed by educators, BC Ministry of Education, in consultation with parent groups, the BC Teachers Federation, a number of organizations came together to develop this framework that is actually to support the BC human rights rulings and policies and legislation when it comes to not discriminating against people. based on sexual orientation or gender identity or racism or any of those kind of things. So the framework was brought into schools, I believe, back in 2016 by the then BC Liberal government. And it was intended to be resources for teachers and to be able to have conversations around topics like
Speaker: You know, a kid comes to school and they've got same-sex parents or kids might come to school and they might be identified as gay or lesbian or trans.
Speaker: Those are the conversations that are important because Kids want to see themselves reflected in education and if they're not, then they don't feel like they're part of it. And the other part of it is the stigma that comes sometimes with those identities and sexual orientations and the bullying and attacks on kids that comes as a result of that. So that's what the framework is intended to do. It's not a program where it's not a course, it's not a curriculum. It's just a reference tool for teachers to give them guidelines on how to deal with those topics if they come up in the classroom.
Speaker: So what it isn't, as I mentioned, it it's not a curriculum or a course. It's not there to promote. a gender ideology or sexual orientation. It's not there to tell kids that they're born in the wrong body and they should transition.
Speaker: It's there just to support kids as how they show up in a classroom. Wilbur, last fall, UBC's Stigma and Resilience Among Vulnerable Youth Centre released ah a comprehensive evaluation of SOGI 123. Tell us about the study and then we can dive a little bit into its findings.
Speaker: Well, I think one of the biggest things that showed up for me in that study was that the use of SOGI123 in classrooms has actually benefited all children, not just those who have identified as gay or queer or trans.
Speaker: it reduces bullying and improves mental health outcomes for all students. So that was done in a study across 50 some school districts.
Speaker: I think it was a 10 year study, but it really, really showed the improvement with the implementation. And the other thing that struck me, Lorraine, about the study was that the authors who did the research actually recommend expanding the program, not reducing it or taking it away.
Speaker: They felt that the benefits were strong enough that it needed to be implemented more widely. Well, and I understand that that the longer that SOGI had been in a school, the greater the impact, the greater the benefit for for students.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. So, you know, I've talked to many, many parents in the work I do. I hear from parents a lot with concerns. And one of the big things that I've heard from parents of especially trans youth is that it's a lifesaver.
Speaker: It is allow their kids to go to school and feel safe. And one parent actually told me, she said, I don't think my child would be here today if it wasn't for SOGI123 in the classroom.
Speaker: Well, and many of us know people who have not made it through. Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's really heartbreaking when you consider all the rhetoric against SOGI 1, 2, 3. It's mostly from either people who don't have children in the school system and they're just agitating based on their personal agendas, or it's from, i think, parents who are concerned that it will cause an influence on their own children to become gay or trans.
Speaker: And that is a really large fallacy when you think about it. people aren't People can't be converted into something. It's just like when you talk about conversion therapy or so-called conversion therapy of, you know, turning gay people straight. It doesn't work. You can't convert people into something like that. It's something that's part of who you are.
Speaker: What about the claims that SOGI 123 has a negative impact on academic outcomes? You say the anti-trans lobby groups have been pushing the academic outcomes narrative across North America.
Speaker: Yes, so I think it's a big distraction. you know I've worked a lot with local school trustees. i've I've attended many, many school board meetings. And you know what I hear in those meetings?
Speaker: I hear about achievement. I hear about success stories in education, about lifting people up through STEM, about encouraging academic achievement.
Speaker: And there's various opinions on you know on grading and those kind of things when it comes to figuring out academic results. but you know, largely from what I'm hearing from also from teachers is that if there's a problem with academic outcomes, it's not about SOGI 1, 2, 3 in the classroom. It's not about what they're calling, you know, this ideology. It is about the student to teacher ratios.
Speaker: It's about crowded classrooms and it's about lack of supports for children with diverse needs when it comes to learning. So they point at SOGI123 because I think they don't really have the answers to the real problem.
Speaker: And just to be clear, the SOGI framework, it's not a curriculum and it it doesn't replace lessons and it doesn't displace math science instruction.
Speaker: Absolutely, it does not. it is It's a framework. It's part of a discussion like that a teacher can have in a classroom. And so, you know, it it really is pointing in the wrong direction when you're pointing at SOGI 1, 2, 3 having anything to do with academic outcomes. It actually, and in my mind, based on the research from the University of British Columbia team, it is actually there to improve the outcomes because it creates a safe learning environment where kids want to come to school and they don't disengage.
Speaker: Now, you you also make the argument that the opposition to SOGI from some quarters is not about vulnerable children, which is how it's always being presented. These kids are vulnerable. We have to protect children. Can you elaborate there?
Speaker: Well, I think that you know the vulnerability comes in when there is no SOGI 1, 2, 3. It comes into discriminating and punching down on kids who don't fit what the traditional norms are.
Speaker: And I think the whole conversation around this also centers on what some political operatives are calling parental rights. And they're saying that you know that teachers are hiding things from from parents.
Speaker: it's all an obfuscation of what the real facts are. And, you know, I just got a comment from someone the other day saying that, you know, I'm someone who thinks that teachers should hide information from parents.
Speaker: And it's not absolutely not the case. I'm ah i'm a parent too. i I raised two children. I brought them through education. i was involved in their education. i actually went, sat in on a parent's sex program class to help parents understand whether kids are going to be taught about sexual education.
Speaker: And the thing is that I think parents need to be involved in their kids' education. And the only time that there is a problem with not sharing information with a parent is if the child feels it would make them unsafe, like it would be an unsafe environment and cause retribution on them for who they are.
Speaker: And that's a delicate issue that actually needs to be addressed in terms of, you know, educating parents on the harms of you know, not supporting their children in in who they are in their gender identity or sexual orientation. I i remember when when I came out, and this was back in the 90s, and I was an adult, but the way my mom reacted to it was horrific. And my father had already passed away. i can't ah i can only imagine, based on what...
Speaker: how my dad, ah his behavior would have reacted to me coming out as a child. It would have not have been a safe situation. What do you have to say to politicians in the BC conservative leadership race who are targeting SOGI? I heard there was some thunderous applause in response to saying they were going to take it out on day one.
Speaker: So i I wrote an article in my Substack column today about this actually. And there was a poll that came out by Research Co, which is a pretty credible organization in Vancouver on the state of politics in BC and who supports what.
Speaker: And the majority of British Columbians are not interested in this conversation about Solji and culture wars. What they're interested is yes the economy, healthcare care came up really high, like family people having a not having a family doctor.
Speaker: The economy, being able to pay their rent, their mortgage, crime, those are the things that people care about. And I think that you know, this is a leadership race and of course they're trying to outdo each other and appealing to their base, but they're forgetting, they're thinking that their base is the electorate and electorate has got other ideas about what's important than what they're pushing.
Speaker: And I think it's the same thing when it comes to politicians like Tara Armstrong, who's been very vocal, anti-SOGI, anti-trans in the legislature, um total on on this culture war issue, is that I think she is, her politics are for for the Twitter X community followers.
Speaker: i I don't think she's actually representing the people in her constituency, which, you know, I'm, I'm, I was part of until March and I just moved to a different riding. But this is not what people want the politicians are paying attention to.
Speaker: It's not going to solve the wait times in the emergency room by taking Soji out of schools. Well, as someone who, you know, came out in the 80s, but like in the 70s when I was in school, there was nothing about being queer, certainly not about being trans. There was nothing but slurs and secrets.
Speaker: How can allies step up at this time when there's been so much progress and in this direction for kids, but now it's so much under threat? Well, i I think there's a really easy answer to that.
Speaker: I think allies really need to be vocal. Allies need to call out the nonsense that's going on in the public in the political arena and say, this is this is abhorrent.
Speaker: We don't need this. there's you know i i sat in a room last night in the downtown Kelowna library where Advocacy Canada was unveiling an art installation in the library.
Speaker: And it was a project all around misinformation around SOGI 123. And it was an installation of over 1,500 paper origami cranes in rainbow colors that got raised up and put hanging above the first floor when you walk into the library.
Speaker: And it is a really colorful representation of solidarity because of the number of people that came together, 13 different organizations participated in getting people to fold those origami cranes.
Speaker: And one of the people speaking at the event last night looked around the room and said, you know, I wish I could take what's here into the classroom and show the queer kids because these are adults sitting here in this room standing up for defending something that's important.
Speaker: And the kids need to hear this. The kids need to know, you know, ah we think that particularly teenagers don't want to listen to adults that they they kind of disdain any kind of advice from adults. But actually, the kids are actually looking to the adults for signals that they're safe. They're looking to the adults to say, you're OK.
Speaker: You're OK exactly how you are. And this is the message that allies need to be speaking up and saying is you know, we're harming kids by this message. We're harming people who are vulnerable, who want to to have ah a future. They want to have a bright future in our province. And the politicians are telling them that we want to erase you.
Speaker: That sounds like a beautiful installation and and a wonderful event. Thank you so much for joining me. ah You're so welcome, Lorraine. It's my pleasure. I've been speaking with Wilbur Turner. He is the founder and president of Advocacy Canada. His article can be found on Queerly Beloved with Wilbur Turner at queergranddad.substack.com.
Speaker: It's titled Soji 123, What It Is, What It Isn't, and Why the Truth Matters. You've been listening to the Red Eye Podcast, produced by an independent media collective based in Vancouver.
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Speaker: Thanks for listening.
