Transcript
John Saunders: Good morning. We're back. Welcome to the Business of Machining episode number 468. My name is John Saunders.
johngrimsmo: And my name is John Grimsmo.
John Saunders: just smiling about. Uh, What a week it was at IMTS. What a few days it's been since I was back. but ah Yeah. um talking Talking trades.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Love it. It was great to see you last week.
John Saunders: Good to see you as well.
johngrimsmo: Even though I think a lot of people assumed we'd be attached at the hip. And I had to tell multiple people, I was like. I spent a total combined hour and a half with Saunders in this week -long show.
johngrimsmo: And an hour of that was at dinner. Like.
John Saunders: We are. Well, that was funny. I'd run into numerous people and they'd be, they'd see be the same thing. They'd see me and be like, well, where's Grimstone? I'm like, I think he's like, it's during the current meetup as well. Like I'm i'm sure he's here. Um, but I mean.
John Saunders: heck of a crowd to try to to sift through there.
johngrimsmo: Right. That was wild.
John Saunders: Oh, man. Right.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. It was great seeing the.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah the show of force of of us.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: of our our people. are instant machinist nerds.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: um Show up at the current booth. I don't Hundreds of people? I don't even know. It was it was a crowd.
John Saunders: Yes. I agree. Hundreds of people in like just. Very. unusual again you could sort of see people were wondering what's going on why is it here all that so yeah
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah Because this is the place to be.
John Saunders: For sure.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I think Kern was very happy to to host that and to... you know be involved in that Because they are.
John Saunders: ironically they have less space in their booth this year because they have a giant machine that we were spilling out of the hallways.
johngrimsmo: Good. Takes up twice the space um yeah i wasn't sure if they were going to bring two machines like the fortis and the hd um
John Saunders: Yes.
John Saunders: Mm.
johngrimsmo: the fortress is incredible but i i must i can only imagine how it's a very limited market segment. like Like not everybody's buying a Fortis. Um, Because it's not only huge, but also like...
johngrimsmo: They were telling me, To hit the same accuracy specs that... their hd their smaller machine has, the Fortis has to be more accurate, like significantly more accurate to hit the two micron tolerance. They had to try harder.
johngrimsmo: to get the same volumetric accuracy. um so their their team was really proud of that fact and i think because of that it ended up being even more accurate than their HD like overall.
johngrimsmo: which is like just wild. Um,
John Saunders: Well, if you think, yeah yeah I'm sure. bigger is so much harder in so many respects in terms of just the actual geometrical accuracy but You think about how much that they have learned.
johngrimsmo: Great.
John Saunders: Um, in the seven ten years that the what was it called the micro line has been out and now you get the chance
johngrimsmo: More than that, 2011. So 15 years.
John Saunders: 15 years, right?
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: In the advent of technology. was pleasantly surprised to see marv who i don't think always makes it to imts if i'm
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: remembering correctly and marv was uh Talking numerous things about the. way the machine is better and the thermal and the spindle and i don't remember at all but they were quite proud of it.
John Saunders: And to see it, did you watch the slitting saw in the aluminum?
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: I mean... they These were all over clips were all over Instagram, but It's probably like a... one and a half inch slitting saw with a relatively small neck with five or ten times stick out on the shank and it was full depth, probably 300, 400 ,000 deep slitting saw.
John Saunders: eighth inch tall slot, full slot around the radial fins of this kind of fake rotary engine. Insane. It was silent.
johngrimsmo: In aluminum with no coolant. and made no noise.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I got to, ah for their initial cut on the first day, I got to put my... DJI Nano inside the machine. and ah above the chip spray so it doesn't get just pelted.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: um and then i got to film from the outside so i'll review that footage and it it should be pretty cool
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it's a beast of a machine. um, Very very impressive yeah I got to spend a lot of time with Marv, which was wonderful.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Really appreciate him. in his his brain and experience. um And...
John Saunders: asking questions for Grimstone Ives and your machine.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah sweet.
johngrimsmo: yeah so many questions actually i don't know if we ever talked about My machine, we just talked about. machining. And. microscopes for hours and hours on end. um Yeah, so that's that's one of my talking points for my list here. But what do you got?
John Saunders: ah Vision system, not real update. um some brother tool holding stuff. Um, the general imts conversation and then i'd like to i'd like to ask for like five minutes of time to just kind of talk and brainstorm about ai
johngrimsmo: Mm hmm.
John Saunders: hopefully in a way that maybe is I'm not trying to go out of my way to be unique, but I want to think about it in ways that
John Saunders: It's just a part of the conversation. yeah
johngrimsmo: Interesting. Okay, let's let's do that at the end then.
John Saunders: What about you?
johngrimsmo: Um, I was telling you before, i I brought a stack of business cards here to the podcast as my like favorite you know booths that I went to so I could remember what else to tell you. but um I brought parts to inspect on the various microscopes of the show. So talk about that.
johngrimsmo: I learned all about cleaning. Talk to Marv about microscopes. I went to every single booth that had an interferometer atomic force microscope. vision system.
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: I went to every booth. And I talked for hours with all these guys.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It was the greatest. um I got a note about the mid tutorial booth. um um learned more about collets which was interesting i learned about rotary surface grinders
John Saunders: Mmm.
johngrimsmo: and vibration monitoring.
John Saunders: But... You mean Blanchards?
johngrimsmo: No.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: but similar.
John Saunders: Hmm. Mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Hmm. Um, i i gotta to share a Probably the coolest, I'm just going to say one of the coolest conversations I've ever had in my life, like full stop. um And it's kind of just the coincidental benefit of I just finished the Richard Rhodes book on the Manhattan Project and I'm reading his sequel on building the super. um Like I think a lot of people always been a fan of just reading about all the science and went into that. And there's Fat Man and Little Boy, which is a great movie from the 90s. There's Oppenheimer now.
John Saunders: um Just been thick and in the thick of all that stuff lately. And then a gentleman. Um... who I knew of through Graham at Lights Out. um I guess he was at the summit. I don't remember having a conversation with him, et cetera. But anyways, this gentleman's name is Tong Youngst.
John Saunders: And he is certified number one. Just absolute solid, incredible guy. And I'll keep it short. Here's the punchlines. Currently teaching machining. at a very awesome level and a very influential level at Montana State. So good for him.
John Saunders: Appreciate that. Like the world needs people that are passionate and that are. doing that right thing. He had two so former students with him, both of whom were working at General Atomics doing some insane like machining. We were at the, oh, who's that? Mini.
John Saunders: Like. It looks like the size of a... bamboo printer, but it's a a pressy mat, something. Like 60 ,000 RPM, HSK something machine, CNC machine.
johngrimsmo: You know.
John Saunders: Kind of looks like the Chiron that has the watchmaking.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, with all the...
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: The... baffles on it and stuff.
John Saunders: Yeah, sorry, I can't remember.
johngrimsmo: I don't know if I saw that one.
John Saunders: news Okay, so. Tom Young's... um Number one, currently teacher. Awesome. Number two. former like pioneer in backcountry skiing. including being like i believe involved in warren miller films numerous first ascents first descents was um in rolling stone magazine for his ski adventures like legit incredible skier that's awesome um but then the coolest part was worked at Um. one of the ma machine manufacturing divisions within Los Alamos.
John Saunders: manufacturing and machining plutonium. and And I'd heard this, somebody else had... i'd heard this rumor that more the more you know foundations had built custom lathes for Los Alamos and the Manhattan Project.
John Saunders: And I never couldn't find any. I think usually corroborating that wasn't in the book I read, searched it on chat and everything. And I asked Tom, he's like, oh yeah, and just starts explaining the legs. And they're like, they were over in this corner.
johngrimsmo: So you like lathes now, is what you're saying.
John Saunders: um This is an exception I'm willing to make. Anyway, that was a fun moment for me.
johngrimsmo: That's awesome.
John Saunders: Which is probably a good point of IMTS is like Um, sometimes you'll see some technology or thing that will blow you away i think It so often seems like all of us say, oh, I didn't really see anything. But the reality is we've been going for 10 years. And if you rewound to IMTS 2014, before we ever went.
John Saunders: to compared to today, you'd probably... Yeah. completely different. chose in terms of technology, right?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and we're spoiled because we get to see the technology online first before we go to the show So it's not like new mind -blowing kind of thing um
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But still, it's there's like a surface level of IMTS and then there's a deeper level of IMTS. and i I found myself seeking out that deeper level at every turn. um you know the the salesman would get you at the booth and tell you a couple things and I'll start asking harder and harder questions and find the limit of the salesperson's knowledge.
johngrimsmo: And then many times they're like, let me go get Bill. I'm like. You do that. That'd be great. Thank you so much.
John Saunders: I'd love to talk to Bill.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. I would love to talk to Bill.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And that happened probably like a dozen times. And that was super fun because it was cool to have enough knowledge to to hang in with these conversations, even talking to Bill, and be able to like at least understand the words that are coming out of his mouth, even if I don't, not anywhere close to his level.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: but um Yeah, that was awesome.
John Saunders: Yeah. This is really rude, but for next IMTS, we should just get shirts that say, get the apps guy.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Let me talk to your smartest person. Yeah, get the apps guy like that
John Saunders: That's funny.
John Saunders: So what's on your list?
johngrimsmo: um Okay.
John Saunders: Oh, you already said it.
johngrimsmo: so Yeah, so so I brought some parts because I knew...
John Saunders: Go, go.
johngrimsmo: um I knew like Keyence would be there and they've got all kinds of microscopes and I spent a lot of time at their booth. they They were one of the big first booths I went to. and i but for all the flack we give them about sending everybody way too much emails, which is fact and true.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um every single person in their booth was very, very smart. and and very well trained.
John Saunders: It's awesome.
johngrimsmo: on the specific machines. They don't know all the machines, but they know everything about this machine. And most of them are like university students that are like, went to school for this kind of stuff. And they're like really, really smart people. Um,
johngrimsmo: and it was impressive and the the show of force they must have brought 100 people to the show like it was I don't know it was crazy. um So I learned a lot about Keyence. and it's like you go through the show and and go through stages you know you get to the end of the key ends you know one hour two hour demos and you're like sweet i would get that one And then you go to another booth.
johngrimsmo: And you learn about the next machine. You're like, sweet, I would get that one instead. That's better than the Keyence. And you like step your way up. But... Um, But I brought, um we have a our dragon skin Rask.
johngrimsmo: handle. with the dragon scale pattern.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: engraving on it. We have a book. you call it a 3d parallel tool path on it where it does crosses crisscross zigzags right
John Saunders: Uh -huh.
johngrimsmo: And I've had a problem for a while now where the tool is either gouging in one direction of the crisscross and light cutting in the other direction. So the floor of each crisscross is not matching.
johngrimsmo: properly. Like the Z height of the X is off by a certain amount so we we get visible lines in one direction and the crisscross lines
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: don't fully intersect and cut them. Does that make sense?
John Saunders: Simple. it does but it i'm not sure i'm like perplexed myself as to how that can happen on
johngrimsmo: ah Yeah, exactly. And this is happening on the current, which is like the best machine. and so it leads me to a lot of questions and i've been asking a lot of my were very smart friends like marv and phil messenhouser and things like that like We talked for hours on this kind of stuff. why What could be happening? Is it thermal? Is it?
johngrimsmo: The current needs to be calibrated and it's not X, Y -ing in the same direction. you know, geometrical position. Is it the material flexing? Is the fixture flexing? Is it the tool deflecting? Is it dull tool?
John Saunders: mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: Is it overcutting? Is it undercutting? Is it spindle growth due to heat? You know, three minutes later, it's cutting the other side of the axe.
John Saunders: Mhm.
johngrimsmo: like all these options and it was amazing and then i could take my part to frisky ants then Sensofar, then Zygo and other people and and measure. the mismatch depth.
johngrimsmo: using an interferometer.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yep.
johngrimsmo: between these two things. and Almost everybody got nine to 10 microns. So four tenths.
John Saunders: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: is the Z mismatch between these two features. And it doesn't sound like much, but that's enough to cause a problem for us.
John Saunders: Sure.
johngrimsmo: Um, And I've never known what that number is. And now to know at least the sample I brought, the sample in my hand, which is like medium badness. We've had worse. We've had a lot better.
johngrimsmo: um was was four tenths or ten microns and i was like Okay, I can work with this now. that was That was helpful to know. It's like an answer.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, And you start to think about a deviation of four tenths. i mean The current's pretty thermally stable, but on most machines, they could easily grow by four -tenths in Z. um throughout the day.
johngrimsmo: uh it could be tool deflection it could be dull tool it could be yada yada yada so i still haven't solved the problem but i i still haven't solved the problem but i i still haven't solved the problem but i have a lot more knowledge and ammunition and I think I know how to solve the problem.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: I think it's literally just a roughing strategy. that needs to be. roughed more evenly. um leave a more consistent amount of material. for the rough semi and finish mass.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: And it should just go away at that point. but
John Saunders: The knife the blade excuse me the handle is You have an A machine or a B machine? A machine.
johngrimsmo: Uh, B.
John Saunders: Access. Sideways?
johngrimsmo: It's not an A, it's a B. Yeah.
John Saunders: Okay. x y oh yeah b of course thank you um Is it B0 or tipped?
johngrimsmo: The... The handle is at 45 degrees
John Saunders: I'm just trying to think of it a k as simple as a kinematic.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: thing where your bees positive 20 degrees on one end. now you're 20 but just the handle doesn't move
johngrimsmo: Right.
John Saunders: Do you?
johngrimsmo: No, the handle doesn't move during this pattern. But I think it...
John Saunders: Yeah, okay. so
johngrimsmo: At the end of the day, it comes down to a depth of cut like width of cut material thickness um variation throughout the handle and just
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: Bad roughing strategy is what it is.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um But yeah, it was really fun to nerd out with specifically those two guys, Phil and Marv. Um, on this and like they were chewing on it too
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It was fun.
John Saunders: Do you have a way now or yet to measure that in your shop?
johngrimsmo: um I mean, I could do it with a... a drop indicator but not as accurately as the interferometer.
John Saunders: Oh yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like, so.
John Saunders: It's tough, right?
johngrimsmo: Going to this show solidified my absolute need. for an interferometer. um And I also brought some when we make our saga tubes the pen.
John Saunders: mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: tube it's 3 8 titanium we have it centerless ground at a fairly local shop in upstate New York. And. If. Sometimes their surface grinder...
johngrimsmo: puts extra gouges into the material, whether it's a grit that comes around and and snakes into the material and cause the gouge.
John Saunders: sure
johngrimsmo: You can't really see it by looking at it. You can't really see it by doing one profilometer test. um But as you make parts and you start looking at them, you're like, there's a gouge, there's a gouge, that's a problem, that's a problem. um So I was able to measure those gouges under the interferometer too.
johngrimsmo: and also coincidentally about 10 microns.
John Saunders: used
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Oh interesting.
johngrimsmo: And so with with that technology, we could. at least give ourselves a go -no -go measurement four.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: scrap as opposed to like a couple weeks ago. you know i watch the guys spend hours under the microscope and talking to each other and guessing and sanding and trying again and testing and anodizing and sanding and testing And it's like.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I'd rather just scrap the parts early.
John Saunders: You're never gonna get there.
johngrimsmo: and Right? Yeah.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: and And know that.
John Saunders: 100%.
johngrimsmo: So that would be really cool.
John Saunders: 100%.
johngrimsmo: Um, A couple of the machines, so Keyence had... They had an interferometer, but they didn't. have it working but they had um what they call the structured light.
John Saunders: Good.
johngrimsmo: um, microscope. where it it shines all these like straight lines onto the part in all different angles and records video of that and basically measures shadows and deflection of those lines
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: on a little one inch area.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And that's the... All their machines sound the same. The VM series, VK series. VR? VR. Anyway. Um,
John Saunders: Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: And that was able to measure that 10 micron. Gap. which is pretty cool on ah on a feature. it probably wouldn't be able to measure a tiny scratch like it hits a floor of of resolution
John Saunders: uh -huh
johngrimsmo: Um... That's where you need interferometer or something like that. So that was really cool. And then I went, there's a ah company from Barcelona. called Sensofar. that i've I've actually been getting their ads on Instagram.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: and and just Google for a while.
John Saunders: That's funny.
johngrimsmo: And I was like, This sounds awesome, but is it real? Is this like a, you know, cheesy company? Is it a new company? Is it a fake company? Whatever. And I got to talk to the guy for a solid hour plus.
johngrimsmo: And he spoke in this fast Barcelona English. And he's a really smart guy. He's been with the company for 20 plus years. And oh man, we just had fun. Um...
John Saunders: What's the product?
johngrimsmo: ah It's a microscope, an interferometer microscope. So like like a Zygo or like one of the Keyance desktop ones. But what's cool about the Sensofar unit is it's a three -in -one.
johngrimsmo: it's a white light interferometer a confocal laser scanner And. ah It does what's called focus variation or focus stacking in the photography world where it basically finds the autofocus.
johngrimsmo: pixel. And scans downwards. and takes a 3D map of the pixels that are in focus as it scans through the part. And then you get this fully 3D object. all in focus in a photograph.
johngrimsmo: that's like
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Really really cool. um And so because the three in one, and I was asking him, I was like, when would you, it seems like they all do the same thing more or less.
John Saunders: kids
johngrimsmo: he goes well there's each one has its own application so we just stuffed them all into one machine for roughly the same price that everybody's charging for one of those machines.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: And now you can choose. And so we tried all three and we did, and I started to see some of the differences of why you would use one versus the other. And I'm like, Oh. Okay, now I would get this machine over the cans.
John Saunders: ah
johngrimsmo: And very impressive.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: The CENSOFAR unit, maybe 80 to 100 grand US. and and I learned more from them and then later from Marv. They're a huge company. like it's that it's them and zygo
John Saunders: Interesting. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And they own the world.
John Saunders: Yeah. i had not realized actually it came up with marv that zygo i believe is an amatek uh company and so kind funny to think that they and current are under the same umbrella
johngrimsmo: Mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah
John Saunders: are you Is the plan to still stay with the DIY?
johngrimsmo: Well, that was an interesting thing I was trying to answer at the show, seeing all these professional units that are like, you know, relatively push a button, then you get a result versus. continue with my DIY path? um I think the answer is Definitely continue with my DIY path and...
johngrimsmo: put some thought into
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: at some point do we just get one
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: um Because I'm learning tons doing my DIY route. And I'm at the point I might have mentioned already where I kind of want to... scrap my current progress and start fresh.
John Saunders: mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: and build it. differently and better and i know i could do that and i was talking with marv about this and he pulls out his phone and shows me a picture and he goes I built one in my kitchen as well. Let me show you. And I'm like, this is insane.
johngrimsmo: He's got a full, he's built a CNC machine. That's a microscope. XY table, ball screws. z with a piezo z stage that moves up and down really accurately and he's got like
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: a lot of money into it of his personal money but it's like So legit.
John Saunders: For his stone sharpening stones or just because he's borrowed
johngrimsmo: That's part of it, yeah. It's both. Yeah.
John Saunders: Good for him. That's cool.
johngrimsmo: So yeah, we talked for hours um Yeah, and then there's another another company called, I see, checking my business cards. I don't... Where'd it go? Here it is.
johngrimsmo: uh Yeah, IC Spy. IC SPI Corp. I see spy and they make an atomic force microscope.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: I don't know if you've ever seen YouTube videos of these. or what an AFM is.
John Saunders: No. No.
johngrimsmo: So it's their unit is a small desktop. box like a 3D printer size, a small bamboo.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And. Basically has this little tiny chip with a MEMS sensor that can bounce the chip very microscopically. And it has a... wire drawn some like tip that that as The tip diameter is nanometers.
johngrimsmo: in diameter and basically the thing tip taps across your surface of your part and measures the feedback vibration so it can scan anything from cloth to not the liquids some liquids depending but sandpaper ah
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: All kinds of stuff since fingerprints has to be still. um
John Saunders: Great.
johngrimsmo: And so it's like in a little enclosed space. I don't think it's under vacuum. But it has to be like very still it's on a vibration isolating stage um and this is a local like waterloo ontario companies they're an hour away from us and it's interesting because they've been pushing the youtube algorithm a little hard they uh you know they shipped a unit to nile red to play with they ship one i think hacksmith is going to get one and a couple of the other big like science youtubers
John Saunders: mm -hmm
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I've been putting out videos on these and I'm like, that's cool. So it was cool to meet the guys and chat with them for. an hour. and put some parts under the microscope and like measure um but this is they call it an atomic force microscope for a reason because it's It's like... um measuring area. It's probably like a quarter of a millimeter.
John Saunders: Well, as I was saying, it almost feels like an RA where it's like and measuring the record needle bounce, except this is the... discrete data point at each
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Location.
johngrimsmo: of of the whole certain working area.
John Saunders: like mapping. Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: And you can do it with an XY table and amass a whole bunch of...
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: data, but um It's like neat, but that's almost... further than I need to go because I don't need to see. You know all the data within this tiny little pinprick of an area
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I need more of a surface like, you know. quarter inch square or something like that. um but it was cool to play with.
John Saunders: Cool. So would it tell you the four tenths deviation on the pocket on the dragon scale?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's a good question. I don't think so because that requires a bigger working area.
John Saunders: Oh, it really is that small.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it really is that small
John Saunders: huh Interesting.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Huh.
johngrimsmo: But it's cool.
John Saunders: Yeah, that's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, Continuing with the microscope adventures, I went to the Mitutoyo booth. um With Phil Mestenhauser, actually. and they had a qc basic i can't remember what do they call it um it's um vision system.
John Saunders: mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: Like what you're building? on an xy table with with a Z.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: that can also take focus variation Z pictures.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: and Z measurements. um using focus as your Z measurement range.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: So it can do... relatively accurate, like step heights.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: which is kind of cool. and the software to do X, Y. um profiles and stuff like that was really clean and really good so as a vision system and then phil was asking about the um deeper ah you know code script generating cam files for this. He's like, what I really want to do is have an LLM. Me.
johngrimsmo: The... the scan file automatically And thankfully the sales guy we were talking to is also a software engineer. And he's like, let me pop into the backend and show you what this looks like. And Phil just looks at the code and he goes.
johngrimsmo: Oh, I could totally work with that. Like...
John Saunders: cook funny.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: All right. and it's like like it's like a g -code file but for this type of measurement so it wasn't g -code but it's all it's all there
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: you know It's just data.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: And so hypothetically. you could easily port into that and just send a cam file right to it. and say scan all these features and radii and circles and holes and widths and just give me an output.
John Saunders: Right at a high level, you're like, why?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Once I have a solid model, it's like decisions around purchasing material, around the work holding, around the cam. around the and then around the inspection. is work that can be automated.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And then... then fill. branched off to go to the CMMs and I never saw him again for the rest of the trip. um and then i kind of walked around some of the other and they had little vision systems um with a green backlight. and a nice telecentric lens and an integrated camera so there's no pc required
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um And screen, I mean. And he was telling me the whole thing's built on a Raspberry Pi.
John Saunders: No.
johngrimsmo: And I looked in the back and I see like the USB ports and the things. And I'm like, this is a legit Raspberry Pi that's running this Mitutoyo microscope. That was, I don't know, 10 or $20 ,000.
John Saunders: Wait are you serious?
johngrimsmo: I was like, what Yeah. Dead serious.
John Saunders: Wait, wait, but sorry, this isn't a Mitsutoya booth. This is a...
johngrimsmo: at the submit tutorial booth.
John Saunders: No way.
johngrimsmo: Yep. At their booth, they have a Raspberry Pi powered vision system. Um,
John Saunders: That's funny.
johngrimsmo: That was pretty solid.
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And it so it has an integrated screen and the Pi is obviously feeding the screen with data. And it was touchscreen and you could, it was pretty solid.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: It was they more entry -level. Unit. But, um, I was like, well, that's funny.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I gotta tell Saunders about this.
John Saunders: No, that is fine part of me is like kind of a disbelief but like Yeah, sure. Gosh, that is weird though. Whatever. That's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Hm.
johngrimsmo: Alright. That pretty much wraps it for microscopes. Your turn.
John Saunders: So we spent some time in the tutorial as well. We met the product manager for the linear gauges, which...
johngrimsmo: Oh yeah.
John Saunders: um Yeah. So like that was kind of.
johngrimsmo: I think it's a CD. I didn't get to see that kind of stuff.
John Saunders: I mean. they're not that exciting in the sense that it's just like a dial indicator without a dial um We really struggled with. a a combination of just not our world slash some good old ll and hallucination combined with Um,
John Saunders: A. product description that appears to have incorrect photos across the internet from like ebay to amazon to digikey etc so basically we had to find the correct plug the correct jack
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: which is this guy guy right here.
johngrimsmo: A wiring plug?
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: You solder wires to the end and then it plugs into the linear gauge, I assume.
John Saunders: Bingo.
johngrimsmo: Got it. you Okay.
John Saunders: because I bought two different versions that were allegedly the correct part number.
johngrimsmo: Interesting.
John Saunders: showed up they didn't fit and i was about to start cutting the ends of the mitsutoyu linear gauges off um which you could say like who cares no big deal they're like 800 bucks each i'd rather not do that to them. um so i got those but it was good to meet the pm i don't think we'll need that contact, but that's part probably part of what IMTS is, is it's less about, it's less for us at least about, you know.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: making purchasing decisions or issuing pos on the spot in a booth but seeing stuff that catches your eye, or more importantly knowing, hey, I can call. bill back and say, hey, this is what we really want to talk about.
John Saunders: um And. So we also did look at their vision systems. I don't remember which one. um Here's the thing. I'm building the one. On my desk because it looks fun and interesting. I think it would be useful but like Ultimately Saunders doesn't need that right now. And that's like the the problem of there's nothing driving it.
John Saunders: other than I mean grant absolutely will look forward to using it regularly for threads, but that's a relatively easy um application. uh actually frankly i could get that wrapped up imminently.
John Saunders: I want it for like. to push the envelope.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John Saunders: and I think. I think it's just that my software sucks, which can can be improved because the reality was when you dropped a part on the mid tutorial one which granted is like well into the five figures it was immediate snappy like you could just see that it exuded confidence mine is not that way but like
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Exact same.
John Saunders: I have spent a thousand dollars in probably a solid. six hours on it like this is um but But my criticism of myself is I also just keep not working on it because of IMTS. getting some stuff going on here. So it was a good.
John Saunders: Reminder to like. I actually probably should have spent more time looking at the software just to sort of like. see what you'd like out of it but um Anyway, that's my ramble on that.
johngrimsmo: nice
John Saunders: Um. I have to say soft spot. always have had a soft spot for Hermla and the whole burger campaign that they did. Right. Like. They machined a, how big do you think that burger was?
johngrimsmo: 30 inches in diameter. I don't know. It was big.
John Saunders: Yeah. I would have said three feet, but exactly, yeah, sure.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah
John Saunders: Like. giant crane lifting size hamburger. um but then what was cool is if you got food there they had like Burger King trays in the menu. on like the nutritional information card had
johngrimsmo: I miss that.
John Saunders: all of their machine specs like listed as like nutritional values They had the Big Mac style boxes that had all their IMTS. machining things over the years.
johngrimsmo: oh cool
John Saunders: Really like a full circle way of just embracing a passion for making stuff. Um,
johngrimsmo: just
John Saunders: Yeah. um And... The... Okay, so we we've spent some time at the Blue Photon booth.
johngrimsmo: o
John Saunders: um which is interesting for so it's interesting. I don't know why it's not more popular. um I do know it it can be a pain in the butt, but you and I have talked about this. like Sometimes you want it for...
John Saunders: one -offs sometimes you want it to make 10 or something and sometimes you are looking for a production technique that maybe it takes a second at more time but kind of kind of the reverse of what you were alluding to uh 10 minutes ago where it's like hey ah if you're spending 30 minutes to rework a part only to find out it's still scrap it's like yeah i know it maybe take me 10 minutes every time to do a setup job but the reality is if i then Have a hundred percent completion success rate Maybe that's.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: worth it. worth it um So... uh i guess i should probably explain if if folks don't know blue futon i think of as like dental glue like like an epoxy that cures with UV light and you can use it to hold.
John Saunders: Pretty impressive. Part. um Holding if you will We saw... uh, Auto change. Shunk. robot g gripper jaws
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: So you think about a... any robot that uses a shunk end effector which we use the the pneumatic one um right now the the
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: the chopsticks or the two fingers are bolted on to effectively Picatinny rails type things.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: And so to to change them, you physically loosen a screw, slide it off, slide a new one on. We do that. at multiple times a week.
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: if you think about changing that to a baldy tent with a two pin system then the robot can just walk, moot jog over to a... gripper station and detach one finger and load the other finger.
John Saunders: um Yeah. super cool not just for like automation sake but but more for just like. Why as a human? worrying about this and doing this so we're getting a quote to see how much those were What's kind of funny is that...
John Saunders: You know, we have three brothers now with these robots on them But if you rewind. probably about two years ago. The initial thought had been. uh actually a harmless system where could we have one spindle and one machine with the ability for that robot and that machine to switch out both the vise and the jaws on the vise.
johngrimsmo: Mm -hmm.
John Saunders: And that's kind of what their system could do, but it was. wasn't the right fit for us it's it's wonderful but very complicated and very hard for the user to kind of make long -term tweaks to it in my conclusion So. um you know funny way we're sort of ground up building our own version of that now
John Saunders: We're not changing the jaws, up to be fair. we Well, maybe we could, but... um changing the um i mean the vice jaws but changing the gripper jaws automatically automatically would be nice
johngrimsmo: Nice. What else do you see?
John Saunders: um Only other big thing on my list was we met with three bar feeder companies. and sort of said hey we want to put a bar feeder on a fourth axis on a No. and kind of wanted to see their reactions and um were they gonna let us were they going to let us meet bill um
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And. Got really good. ah really good intel. um I think there's one company is not the right fit and two of them. i think could work one of them in particular i'm going to keep them anonymous just because i Kind of want to see where this shakes out. it's certainly not like meant to be secretive and we'll document or share a lot of this going forward but uh One of them has one main software person.
John Saunders: That person happened to be a fan of the channel, which I don't want to bias the decision, but they were enthusiastic and familiar and were basically like, look, you tell me what protocols unlocks you want, like backend access.
John Saunders: like
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Because the thing that's tough about this project is you're going to buy this five -figure device that has to be freighted here and is quite large, and you're not really going to know if it works until...
John Saunders: And the devil is in the details about M codes and permissions and integrations. um I love a lot about Yamazin, but Yamazin is not the right fit to handle this kind of on their end right now, at least I think.
johngrimsmo: right
John Saunders: I'd like to know um And I'd like to have this whole thing architected. I know. pc that sits above both the brother and the bar feeder knowing and seeing what shatter has done and then what brother has done with the, did you see the tablet demo at the Amazon booth?
johngrimsmo: um No. I heard about it.
John Saunders: Okay, so one of the apps guys at Amazon built basically a version of Shatter. Shatter being Rob Lockwood's version of chatter. And. somewhat shockingly brother has a very open and well -documented thing called OPC UA that allows you to
johngrimsmo: The new ones, the D00.
John Saunders: I didn't realize that, John. Is that true?
johngrimsmo: I think so. I don't think C00 has that access, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
John Saunders: Okay. Got it. I don't know either. but That was the other, that was the Raspberry Pi that I saw at the show was stuff underneath a brother.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um but you can even like cycle start the machine now from via this code commands. So being able to. um Take. A. parent level program that we write or vibe code, et cetera. And it can sort of say, Hey, I want you to run this machine. I want, I'm scraping the tool data.
John Saunders: at the to the parent level makes it so easy to think about how rating to tool management stuff that way, John, like.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I actually saw, I walked by a booth called OPC UA or whatever it's called. It was a booth for them. And I was like, That was interesting. So this is not a brother thing. This is like a universal, like empty connect kind of thing. Is that what it is?
John Saunders: It is a protocol and there was some standardization and somebody like Siemens or it's one of these like consortiums where. Yeah, it's a... Unified, OPC Unified Architecture is a platform independent open center developed by the OPC Foundation.
John Saunders: um And when I was looking it up, I believe that foundation had some major Parent level backers. I'm not gonna bore Go through it now, but yeah i don't know if i empty connect to say if that's it but yeah there is some
johngrimsmo: cool
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: protocol to it
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John Saunders: And to be... sort of fair and clear. i don't think brother or yamzin are ever going to release that app on their end it was more ah of a demo um
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: but anyone's welcome to i believe shatter is on github and open to open source views, et cetera.
johngrimsmo: nice Yeah, I have not had the chance to play with it yet.
johngrimsmo: Cool.
John Saunders: Yeah. That was my the majority of my IMTS list.
johngrimsmo: noise Let's see. Walked by I met up with a couple knife maker friends from blade show
John Saunders: Mm -hmm. Mhm.
johngrimsmo: Gavin Hawk. who's in, I think, Idaho or something like that. And then Nick Chirpin from NCC Knives.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: He's in New York, now Rhode Island, something like that.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Anyway, we usually meet up at Blade Show. And I walked into the Articards booth. And they were sitting there at the table and I was like, hey, guys.
John Saunders: Awesome.
johngrimsmo: So we all sat down and hung out. And then I was walking the show with them for a little bit. And we walked across um a business called Alkanox. And I was like, hey, I have that product. I bought it for watchmaking.
johngrimsmo: It's a cleaning solution, like a detergent um that is.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: ah Their Liquinox version is... fully biodegradable, you can pour it down the drain kind of thing. And it's a really good cleaner. And their whole thing is making what they call critically clean parts.
johngrimsmo: And this is interesting for me because both the titanium anodizing that we do and the PVD coatings that we send out for.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: I'm quite curious in. critically clean parts. And for watchmaking, you just want to get all the oils and stuff out.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: So I bought this bottle at home, $70 bottle of Liquinox. which is a super concentrated liquid that you mix 1 to 100 with. clean water and it's
John Saunders: Oh, wow. That's it, though.
johngrimsmo: yeah Yep, yep.
John Saunders: Man.
johngrimsmo: And it's like ah it's a soap. basically.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: But it's made specifically formulated to fully rinse away as opposed to a Dawn dish soap. that you know your hands still smell like... perfume after you wash your hands because it leaves crap behind.
johngrimsmo: And these soaps are designed to not leave anything behind after a rinsing stage. And so I talked to them for like a good while. about You know, when we tumble parts in the ceramic media and all that ceramic dust breaks down and gets into little screw holes into the corners and it doesn't.
johngrimsmo: always rinse off very cleanly or very easily. And we've tried ultrasonics.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: We've tried different detergents. We've tried all kinds of things. and it's our Our guys. have basically resorted to buying a Sonicare toothbrush. and standing in front of the sink with hot water.
johngrimsmo: and Dondish soap or whatever soap they're using and toothbrushing all the parts clean and then rinsing them in under tap water
John Saunders: Oh my gosh.
johngrimsmo: and then blow drying them with the air. And now the parts are, air quotes, clean. And it's very manual, very laborious. And the other knife maker that I was with, Nick, he's like, yeah, that's what our guys. do too.
johngrimsmo: And.
John Saunders: ah
johngrimsmo: And. we have We probably have eight ultrasonics in the shop. and This happens more than using the ultrasonics. And so I talked to them about but that critically clean and how, what the stages would be and temperatures and they have a whole line of products. So which one would you use for which? And he said, some have phosphates in the detergents, which. um He was explaining.
johngrimsmo: a phosphate like wraps around a dirt a phosphate like wraps around a dirt a phosphate like wraps around a dirt particle and then it can be removed.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And so it like entraps the dirt particle.
John Saunders: Okay. Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: um gets under it kind of thing and then washes away which is kind of cool but he said phosphates you don't want to put down the drain because it's an epa like it It creates biological growth or bacteria growth in the...
johngrimsmo: world so it's not that it's bad it's just messes up the ecosystem um But then I did some Googling when I got home. The way around that is to. um basically spent fluid. You pour a little bit of ferric chloride acid into it until the pH neutralizes to seven, and then all the phosphates and all the metals sink to the bottom.
John Saunders: oh
johngrimsmo: And then you have... essentially water or somewhat dirty water at the top and then like phosphate junk at the bottom. that you can dump the upper portion and you know properly dispose of the 10%, 5 % bottom sludge. So I was like, okay, there's a solution.
johngrimsmo: around using the phosphate stuff.
John Saunders: Pardon me. Pun intended.
johngrimsmo: yeah that's funny Um, So that was cool. So I just ordered some. And then remember last week I was telling you about the Dyn fluid to measure. uh this the cleanliness of a part the surface tension Leftover, right?
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: So I ordered that yesterday from McMaster.
John Saunders: mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: um A tiny little bottle is $100. each for for one Dine level.
John Saunders: no
johngrimsmo: and they have levels from 30 to 60. So I bought 42 and 50. which some googling and chatting uh determined should be a really good range and it's like a sliding scale that gets worse like harder and harder and harder to get closer to 60.
johngrimsmo: So the difference between 50 and 52 is like a lot.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Um, so i got 42 and 50 and that should be like 42 so i got 42 and 50 and that should be like 42 so i got 42 and 50 and that should be like 42 should be good enough for titanium anodizing and 50 should be like really clean for setting up for pvd coating Um,
johngrimsmo: So yeah, it was really fun to nerd out on. cleaning to add to my current knowledge and uh You know?
John Saunders: Remind me how the dying... works.
johngrimsmo: It's... ah They either either have it in pen form, but you don't want that because you'll get the pen dirty quickly.
John Saunders: oh yeah yeah
johngrimsmo: or a little bottle you put a q -tip into and then swipe it on your part Just... like die cam imagine. and either It wets out and leaves a fat streak.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: or it beads up and contract into little beads into little
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: globules. And if it wets out, your part is. clean to the dyne level of the fluid you're using.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So 42 in this case, or if it beads up, it's dirtier than that.
John Saunders: Okay. you don't think it'll be so it'll be hopefully clear and it won't be like oh which is it doing
johngrimsmo: I think so. I've seen a bunch of videos and it's like, yep, either it wets out or it beads up and it's pretty obvious.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And then you still have to wash that off, but it's a, it's a cleaning process validation tool.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: So it's not something you do on every part. It's something you do on the process to establish like this procedure of cleaning with chemicals, rinses, whatever.
John Saunders: Yeah. Right
johngrimsmo: gives us this result typically. but um Yeah. so That was fun.
John Saunders: Sweet.
John Saunders: I'm speaking of beading, I bought. this could be a fool's errand but i bought a Again, doing some research and so forth. about a um Nano coded. camera lens for.
John Saunders: cheap for 30 bucks.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Um, And we want to move one of our... home assistant cameras for the brother to be. Um, to be basically like maybe four or five inches above the table so you can see a part more on level instead of looking down on it.
johngrimsmo: In the machine or outside the machine?
John Saunders: Well, so I'm going to put... it's i'm going to leave the camera outside the machine there are some removable sheet metal panels and i'm just going to drill a nice one inch hole that'll or maybe one and a half inch hole and grommet it if we want to replace.
johngrimsmo: into the machine
John Saunders: correct yeah the sheet metal um we can easily sign consent powder coat it if i want to like Hit the undo button.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: You know what I mean? um And then the camera can stay outside of the machine, which means I don't need to buy. there's no put There's no reason to put the camera inside the machine. It's just...
johngrimsmo: Got it.
John Saunders: everything's harder.
johngrimsmo: So you're putting a two inch hole in the side and you're stuffing a lens into that hole.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: a piece of glass.
John Saunders: We third. With a... piece of uh oh my i'm blanking on the correct either is or it is Lexan or Polycarp. um for safety and in this basically i want i don't want the coolant to stay beat up on it i don't want to spend two grand or whatever 1500 bucks on a visit for it though
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: um this is not for looking even when the machine's running but when the When it stops, I want the coolant to mostly or completely drip off of it. So I'm hoping that one of these lenses is just a turnkey.
John Saunders: beads off There's like a bunch of like. uh iPhone coatings and ceramic coatings and rain axes. I won't have to reapply it though and like turn it into a maintenance task.
John Saunders: I thought about ah like an opuservo with a windshield wiper.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um or a pneumatically controlled air knife both would work but
johngrimsmo: Yep. you probably only need like five psi tiny little air blast to keep that.
John Saunders: um
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: moving.
John Saunders: The air blast would be a no brainer, except then I have to buy another. pneumatic solenoid, hook it into the brother M code, which we've done a bunch of that, but. um I am going to start with this to see how that works. Yeah. be in a certain angle.
John Saunders: I wanted to say thank you to everybody who came up at the show with kind words, lots of kind words about the podcast.
johngrimsmo: Mm -hmm.
John Saunders: and just putting out content and so forth. yeah which is i i I appreciate everyone who went out of their way to to say hi. It means a lot.
johngrimsmo: Same. and And Saunders and I were standing together for the few minutes. And we we had a guy come up to us and call us the Bomb Johns. And we're both laughing. We're like, what?
John Saunders: What?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, the Bomjons. You're the Bomjons.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like,
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I've never heard that before.
John Saunders: Isn't that funny? Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So unfortunately, we just made that a thing. so Now everybody will think of us as that.
John Saunders: Yeah. ah You cool if I do my AI shtick?
johngrimsmo: ah Yep.
John Saunders: It doesn't even.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, i've got I've got three points, but I'll save them for next week. and we'll just Catch up next week.
John Saunders: no No, no, go go You you go.
johngrimsmo: Okay, I can zip through them. um I stopped by the Southwick Meister collet manufacturer booth. They had a small table.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: They're in Connecticut.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: They make collets. They make 5C collets. They make Swiss lathe collets.
John Saunders: Okay. Yep.
johngrimsmo: And I was asking them, I was like, we are getting lengthwise scratches in our pen tubes as they draw through the collet.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm.
johngrimsmo: And they're like long scratches and they're from us. Um,
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: And so I asked them, I was like, Like... Obviously, the slits in the collet are causing this, but what solutions do you have that would do that? Do we want a plastic insert collet? Do we want a carbide collet? Do we want, um they have meonite.
johngrimsmo: and they said don't use meonite cast iron because that will rust instantly in a coolant machine
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: um Don't use plastic because it'll be too soft. It'll wear out very quickly. You want plastic for soft parts. Um, Don't use carbide because it's too hard. So you just want to steel call it. But then they had steel. 5c collets with the zigzag grooves in 5c collets with the zigzag grooves in them So instead of a straight slit,
johngrimsmo: it like literally wire edm zigzags and he says this is what you want
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: And I said, that just. Seems like there's a lot more points of scratchiness on the inside.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And he says, we grind it as an assembly. So it's like at the right compression. So it should be smooth. um And. five seat call it's even custom made are like 70 bucks each so i'm gonna order some we're gonna see
John Saunders: Yeah, okay. yeah
johngrimsmo: um But yeah, he seemed very confident and I seemed very interested.
John Saunders: Thanks.
johngrimsmo: um Because it's it's a problem for us.
John Saunders: Good.
johngrimsmo: so Could be a super simple solution.
John Saunders: This ties back to the beginning of the podcast where you're talking about scratches in the pen tubes.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep. That's one of the several kinds of scratches we're getting is these lengthwise scratches that we're putting in from the collets.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And maybe this is an easy solution. Or maybe we still go in with a stone and like stone down all the zigzags.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: Um, Or blasted with a... week abrasive i don't know something but
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: there's ways and that that could be better. So that's awesome. um I talked to the Amada and Okamoto. grinder people like you and I, we have the same grinder, right?
John Saunders: Uh huh.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, the same.
John Saunders: I think so. yeah mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: 12 -24. Love it. But when I was in California at Surface Engineering, they had Amada. or Rotary surface grinders. So imagine yours, but with a table that spins.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: It's a pleasure.
johngrimsmo: Similar. I don't know what's different about a plancher. The Blanchard.
John Saunders: Does it still have a ah wheel?
johngrimsmo: It still has a wheel the the vertically.
John Saunders: Okay, that's the difference.
johngrimsmo: a Blanchard has a cup wheel. down right
John Saunders: Correct. Mhm.
johngrimsmo: So this a rotary surface grinder has a traditional grinding wheel just like a
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: a reciprocating surface grinder. but the table rotates and your parts are magnet and they rotate around there. And so I went deep with these guys because the place in California, like loves them. They have three.
johngrimsmo: they're buying more um
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Love them. And so I wanted to know, does it get it? you know does it get it flatter does it get a better surface finishes because you're you're averaging the grit around a circle instead of just side to side to side to side and creating like lengthwise scratches
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, And the two machines, the two brands are built differently. One has your Z in the table and one has your Z in the head. or whatever grinders call it, you know the the up and down one.
John Saunders: Oh interesting. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, why or whatever they call it but
John Saunders: It is why, but sure, whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And so that was interesting. And I had them, you know. fighting remotely going, which one's more rigid. No.
John Saunders: This is the both from Amada but different frames.
johngrimsmo: One from Okamoto, one from Amada.
John Saunders: Got it. Got it.
johngrimsmo: And they make the same thing. They're roughly the same price. They're roughly twice the cost of our surface grinder, which is like a lot.
John Saunders: Oh wow. I'm sure.
johngrimsmo: Um, But it was really cool because instead of traversing across, imagine a full table full of parts. on your surface grinder and you got to go zip zig zig zig zig zig zig a rotary surface grinder if the parts fit like our knife blades you could traverse them in a big circle around the outside perimeter.
John Saunders: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: And then you're only traversing like a two inch width. across. All of those blades.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: and back and forth so it could be like significantly faster and possibly a surface finish improvement. um Flatness is not usually the issue, but it's really, really cool.
John Saunders: Yeah. Interesting.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Interesting. i I threw apart. in our grinder yesterday
johngrimsmo: Oh.
John Saunders: First time ever. um And, you know, it's it's it's fine. you know we uh i'm still wearing the uh the shame sombrero but um i'll talk about next week It's I'm still im it's so a little raw.
johngrimsmo: Okay. Yeah. It still hurts.
John Saunders: We're everything's okay. Like no big.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: uh actually grinders
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I would like to hear about that. but
John Saunders: Grinder's already back up and running.
johngrimsmo: and We've...
John Saunders: And I was.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: it was the It was time to change the wheel. I literally, I was like.
johngrimsmo: Really?
John Saunders: just I was only not changing the wheel because I thought, if we've got a quick thing to grind, I'll just dust them real quick before I switch it.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John Saunders: So it was all good. Yeah. next week.
johngrimsmo: Alright, next week. Um, And then final point is. i I stopped by two booths that measure vibration.
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: One was... Okay, and the other was incredible. Acratech. is what they called it, AcroTech SBS, AcroTechSBS .com.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: They had this beautiful little screen and these beautiful piezo vibration sensors. That. We were playing with it on the bench. That measure like insane. hurts rate.
johngrimsmo: hundred thousand times per second or something like that of vibration.
John Saunders: mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: And I said, when we're grinding our knife blades on the Speedio. um you know this could be an application for this tool And. They basically had an interesting nulling procedure where they you know put it on the machine.
johngrimsmo: Turn the spindle on. Measure your baseline vibration.
John Saunders: Super cool.
johngrimsmo: and then do some cutting and measure your cutting parameters and null them out so all you're seeing is the difference.
John Saunders: Yeah. have
johngrimsmo: And I was like, oh.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's insane because of course a machine has a lot of natural frequencies and vibration and imagine seeing a dust cut. on top of the machine's vibration, you're not going to sense it. But they've worked away around that.
johngrimsmo: but so I was like, oh, this is sick. Um. And so that was really cool. And they can even pick the frequency band that you're machining at or. or your machine resonance is at. So that was cool. And then there. Next up system.
johngrimsmo: had like this rotary device with automatically moving weights on the inside. So imagine you put it on the back of your surface grinder wheel.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And you go into the tuning cycle and it measures, oh, your wheel is out of.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: balanced by like two grams or whatever, the weights on the inside rotate. like statically once.
John Saunders: Self -advancing, yeah.
johngrimsmo: self -balancing not live but during a tuning cycle tuning cycle Um, and then they lock in place and then now it's like balance so you could balance it. every grinding cycle if you wanted to or you could put it on lathe to turret or spindle or all kinds of stuff I just thought that was really really cool.
johngrimsmo: um I think he said it was around 10 ,000 for the self -balancing unit and maybe three -ish for the measuring monitoring. unit
John Saunders: Oh. This is a scene not started.
johngrimsmo: Like, not crazy. Like really?
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um,
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: And I've definitely played with a lot of vibration monitoring at home. And to see like a pro system for $3 ,000, I was like.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's fair. I get that.
John Saunders: Yeah, right. I was like, I can, sure, sure.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah, and and whether I DIY my own with this knowledge that I just learned, which is awesome, um or at some point one day I need it and I just be like, I know what to get.
John Saunders: Do you listen to Spencer Webb's podcast ever or sometimes?
johngrimsmo: Every now and then. I listened to the last one. Um...
John Saunders: He's obviously a big proponent of balancing He has his own balancing stand and he's become quite proficient at grinding and I was picking his brain last night on a quick
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: few things after my grinding incident And. He was. i was like well i'll tackle that stuff in the morning he's like yep he's like i'm uh he's like i'm out of pocket all day blah blah and so i just was like it's okay i just won't balance my wheel um And, uh, and then he's like, does the laughing cringe and I go, it's okay, Spencer. I don't drive my filament either.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: If you listen to his podcast, it's kind of like he.
johngrimsmo: He's a heavy proponent of that.
John Saunders: See ya. Yeah. I did balance the wheel this morning.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: It went great. um All right. Can I still throw my AI stuff?
johngrimsmo: Please.
John Saunders: Who cares if we have a slightly long...
johngrimsmo: That's it. Exactly. We missed last week.
John Saunders: so
johngrimsmo: so
John Saunders: So. There's three separate points to this. I don't know that I have a ah thesis or punchline. But so I'll just say it. Number one, we had a ah wonderful longtime fan, a gentleman named Paul, ask what our opinion was on.
John Saunders: you know using frontier models and cutting edge the the astros the fables that are versus the extreme opposite of locally hosted.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: open source or whatever the local models i have a point on that i'll come back to that's one number two is just like the amazingness of MCP servers. I will say this.
John Saunders: to continue to tout the wonders of Phil Messenhauser. He has written an MCP server for Fusion. it's different or better than the Autodesk one.
johngrimsmo: Explain what MCP is.
John Saunders: Todd. So... don't know don't know the acronym don't care like um i'm i don't want to misrepresent
johngrimsmo: For sure. what does it What does it do?
John Saunders: So it allows bi -directional. communication and control between uh in llm like claude or or chat gpt and the software that the mcp server is written for so in this case fusion so You install fills, open source.
John Saunders: mcp server it's on github we can put the link in the show notes or something um it took me a minute to and set it up like i'm not a github expert um and get it working and then in I'm going to say Claude, but Astra is the punchline. In Claude, you say...
John Saunders: hey, what what file do I have open in Fusion right now? And it literally takes over your computer, looks at Fusion and says, you have. a Norseman open right now. And then you could say, I want you to model a one, two, three block.
John Saunders: and it in you it may ask you a few questions, and then it goes in, and it models one, two, three block, and then you can say, no, I wanted it parametric, and you do user parameters, and then... um And you can watch it work. So the crazy example, which I mentioned months ago on this, was was at some point it could do a Rolex.
John Saunders: Time to move it. You can just say, hey, design.
johngrimsmo: Right. You did mention that months ago. Yeah.
John Saunders: In the next morning, Phil sent me a video of his doing doing that.
johngrimsmo: Yep. yep
John Saunders: like it's And everyone I showed that to at IMTS was. Blown away, so I'm just throwing it out there as like a um punch line to where things are heading
johngrimsmo: And then Fusion has a publicly available MCP of their own, right?
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And Philz is just like a super tweaked version of it.
John Saunders: It is his gift. repo and the discussion talks about what he has done to kind of go through um um checks and balances. So its stop me. I don't want to ramble. the ah example i saw was somebody who was using the mcp server for blender blender being that 3d
johngrimsmo: Okay, yeah interesting.
John Saunders: rendering software. it said something like, do 10 frames. render those frames and then spool up another agent that is a industrial design reviewer and that reviewer is going to watch those frames and it's going to grade them and if the grade is less than a seven then go back and redo the frames
johngrimsmo: mm -hmm
John Saunders: So you're you're creating. iteration upon iteration to have a feedback loop in and of itself that stops it from just um trying to do the whole thing and you end up with the finished product that just is absolute garbage or doesn't looks like what you want.
johngrimsmo: Can I make a tangent on that? And then we can...
John Saunders: Go for it.
johngrimsmo: Come right back. um So I was at a blues bar in Chicago with um Phil ah Buttersworth.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: okay
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And I'll mention a bunch of other people. and i asked phil i was like Why? use separate agents for separate tasks and not just have one agent like do it all. like I was like, I wanted to hear his thoughts because he mentioned a workflow kind of like that, where he'll spood up like four or five different agents and one will write the code, one will inspect the code, and one will check the code, one will validate the code and one will, you know.
johngrimsmo: uh, Okay. tell him if he'll like it or not, whatever.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I was like, i don't I don't understand why you wouldn't just have trust one to do it all. And he said, the difference is you can. train the different ones with different pdf files one can be just on the software one can be just on validation checking, one can be just on industrial design or whatever you want.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um And that was interesting, because it you're kind of forcing it into a box of knowledge. or access.
John Saunders: What was that?
johngrimsmo: and and That way the... Architect doesn't need the validation. knowledge. and and they can work separately and and i'm starting to get that that seems interesting
John Saunders: it's yeah
John Saunders: Yeah. it's almost like a uh e -myth of like hey you're a technician business pan theorist like you want different things to be focused
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: But to your point, why can't one of them just wear all those hats? It's it's a computer. Come on, dude.
johngrimsmo: But yeah, maybe it's I mean, that's why teams of people. do work not just like one person does it all it's It's not just a scale thing. I think it's a knowledge. like I don't know I'm still playing with it.
John Saunders: Phil and a few others had mentioned it. open OpenAI's new Astra model is...
johngrimsmo: Peace.
John Saunders: way. just for whatever reason, way better. or more capable at giving you good results with fusion and CAD modeling. And so I hit put on my list. spend 30 minutes this is what i do when i get Frankly, if I get kind of overwhelmed or whatever, I'm like, just see if you can get it done in 30 minutes. If you can't, move on.
John Saunders: and i didn't get it done within the first 30 minutes but the next morning i woke up and i did get it done about 10 minutes more of work getting astra set up with the mcp server and i was trying to think what i wanted it to do i knew a rolex was was too much work and frankly i don't have any many tokens so i grabbed the geneva drive that's a wikipedia example of just a You turn a screw and it rotates the thing 90 degrees.
johngrimsmo: Thank you.
John Saunders: And I sent at the screenshot, sent the Wikipedia link. and I said, please, this is a demo to understand your capabilities. Please parametrically model this Geneva drive. With joints.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: John is perfect.
johngrimsmo: Done.
John Saunders: Perfect, like perfect. like end of conversations, components, joints. parametric
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: everything.
johngrimsmo: So even if it's wrong, you have enough to tweak.
John Saunders: Motion limits.
johngrimsmo: If you want to like, yeah.
John Saunders: And I said, you Yeah, and we're in the whatever third inning at this point or something um
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly And then. you mentioned that you like ran out of credits like how expensive is this and how how how much does it eat, you know?
John Saunders: I don't know if it's because I had done other stuff than I before because. I have done the MCP on Claude and I've gotten through with what, not Fable, but the one below it. And have you used, I've like almost never run out. Astra, I ran out really quickly. So don't read into that.
John Saunders: But I don't, I pay 20 bucks a month for everything. i for for the three different Gemini's or the. elements we use. Okay, my last point was just entrepreneurship. This is something I haven't heard.
John Saunders: mentioned in the context of AI. it's near and dear to my heart with thinking about yeah I went to a school focused on entrepreneurship. I started a business right out of school. I was working my day job.
John Saunders: And i I started a business in StrikeMark that was in a tangential career with like lots of different things you need to learn about manufacturing electronics. And then even to this day, running a business and the amount of.
John Saunders: Yes, I know there's hallucinations and that can be dangerous, but the amount of... capability, productivity. learning you can get. from AI. I have not heard a talk it talk about being a real boon for folks that want to pursue.
John Saunders: entrepreneurial True entrepreneurship thing. I'm not talking about the quick buck, make an app.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Like. a piece of junk or like scumbag.
johngrimsmo: as
John Saunders: I'm talking about like real companies where you're employing people or building products or doing stuff. um I'm using it The way I'm using it now is a more. hey i don't feel qualified to say seasoned but i i think probably by virtue of having employed people and been profitable for 10 years.
John Saunders: Yeah, there's some definition of success to that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. For sure.
John Saunders: I'm using it a lot now. And boy, if I had had. an ai agent in 2005.
John Saunders: Holy cow.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Ciao.
johngrimsmo: yeah things would have been different yeah and i mean i'm primarily learning using it to research, learn, expand my knowledge of things, solve problems. um I've been using it on and off for you know um theory and planning and and figuring out what I want to do next kind of thing.
John Saunders: Mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: and It's been extraordinarily helpful.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Incredible.
johngrimsmo: I've actually thought... Like it's easy to delude yourself and think, oh, it's been amazing. I'm so much more productive. And then I kind of step back and go, have I done more? Like is our business more profitable?
johngrimsmo: to the last year of me using it etc and uh yes as a nose and it's not always attributed just because I have AI now. um You know what I'm saying?
John Saunders: I do. I'm not trying to... to brag at all or or but create falsehoods, but like we are absolutely. more productive, more capable. We have saved money. We have done more stuff. I have bought more equipment, bought more machines.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I probably have done all that too.
John Saunders: like, like Honey.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Like... There's just like no question, which is. Maybe that's a good... What I used to pick up next week is the, I wanted to come back to frontier versus.
johngrimsmo: Mm.
John Saunders: free versus local models and talk about that as well as a little bit to talk about the economics of it all because um all right Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Sweet.
John Saunders: Cool.
johngrimsmo: One hour nice
John Saunders: sorry yeah Sorry, everybody.
johngrimsmo: Sorry, not sorry.
John Saunders: Submit your complaints to... We don't have a complete address.
johngrimsmo: but To all the people that told us that IMTS were not allowed to skip an episode.
John Saunders: we're not go to take
johngrimsmo: Here's your your hour and two minutes.
John Saunders: yeah You'll have to ration this one.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly Yeah.
John Saunders: It was a good team you last week. um
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it's great.
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Amen.
John Saunders: Cool. That's it.
johngrimsmo: Talk to you next week.
John Saunders: Bye.
johngrimsmo: Bye.
