Episode 14 - Spygate

Transcript

Speaker: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Wonder Camera. This is your podcast about curiosity, in which three non-experts do bunch of research and do their best to tell you fascinating story. We're going to look into our Wonder Camera and look at something else today. Pull something else of out of the cabinet. All right. I'm one of your hosts, one of your dilettantes. I'm Jen Rumpel, and I'm here with... Dave Powell.

Speaker: And Tracy Anderson Powell. And today, it's Tracy's turn. Our storyteller today is Tracy, as I just said. you can go ahead if you like. Hey, Jen.

Speaker: Who's hosting to today?

Speaker: Who's doing the story today? Tracy. Oh, okay, good. Yeah. Stop being a dick, Dave. I was almost like... Like, is this a trick question? Is this guy messing with me?

Speaker: It's just a podcast. Yeah. Jen can't kill me over the internet. No, no. I'm leaving all of this in. Oh, God. No, don't. I get nervous when we start recording and I'm like, whose turn is it? It's Tracy's turn.

Speaker: so Yes. And then I just called out your greatest insecurity and I'm a monster for doing so. Yeah, but you know what? It's how I learned. Next time, I'll feel nothing, Dave. Oh, perfect. You'll become palestin' cold.

Speaker: That's right. oh dead inside. It's just how you go. You know, it's how you survive.

Speaker: Again, team corpse. Yes. Yes. So I am excited and I'm relieved that I still have time to work on my script, thankfully. And very happy to, again, let Tracy take on the role of our storyteller today.

Speaker: All right. Today we are looking at sports. yay and And also history. It's more recent history, but it's still it's still sports. Interesting. My worst subject in trivial pursuit.

Speaker: Yeah, I'm unless it's about hockey. I i don't know. You're a little better. if If Tracy and I go to a pub quiz and we're at a table with a bunch of arts people, Tracy will get the sports questions more than anyone else.

Speaker: Nice. Yeah, that's true. And I see you are wearing a a hockey jersey today. I am. I'm wearing my bright orange Edmonton Oilers jersey. Mostly I wear it so that my dad, my poor blind dad can see me.

Speaker: Stands out in a crowd. Oh, that's nice. I was going to say, it's a hockey jersey of some team revealing my ignorance. I was going to guess the Oilers because the orange, but...

Speaker: Yeah. Yep. It's the Oilers. Again, this is a topic again. Oh, okay, cool. There we go. It's that flame. um I, again, topic about which I know nothing. So flame, very happy. You just said there's a flame on an Oilers jersey.

Speaker: Well, the little dollop, whatever, even I, you know, yeah I can't see. sorry, Trace here. We're going to have to kill Jen. Is it a candle? Oh, it's, it's, it's an oil drop. It's a drop of oil. Look, you know, it has a candle on it. I assume the flame is on the hated bad team.

Speaker: Oh, right. But ah ah we are digressing because i know a tiny bit about Tracy's subject, and it is not about hockey in the slightest. Oh, really? Okay.

Speaker: No, today we're talking about Spygate, the scandal that hit Formula One in 2007. So let's start at the top. What is Formula One? Jen? Cargo fast. It's pinnacle of motors...

Speaker: What was that? Cargo fast? cargi Cargo very fast. the Cargo faster than NASCAR. Nice. Yeah. It's got a few differences.

Speaker: Wow. Formula One. Awesome. awesome Formula One is the pinnacle of motorsport, combining driver skill with some of the most technologically advanced machines in sport. Top speeds of these cars can reach up to 370 kilometers an hour, or 230 miles per hour, and the drivers have to contend with fighter jet levels of G-force.

Speaker: In a car? Yes. Yes. Really?

Speaker: And it doesn't break apart? No. Not until it hits something, anyways. i guess, yeah. that would follow. The cars are custom-built single-seaters with an open cockpit and open wheels, following a specific formula or set of rules and regulations.

Speaker: For the 2026 season, there are 11 teams, called also called constructors, and there are two cars and two drivers to a team. Behind the scenes, each team is supported by a crew of mechanics, engineers, and st strat and strategists, working to wring every ounce of performance they can out of these cars.

Speaker: Some car manufacturers have their own dedicated team, like Ferrari and Mercedes. Some of the teams are called customer teams, and instead of building their own engines, they buy them from manufacturers. The Haas team, for example, uses Ferrari engines. The McLaren team uses Mercedes engines.

Speaker: Rest in peace, Gunther Steiner, who's actually very alive but got fired from Haas and was still sad about it. Yeah. Yeah, he's this... Sorry to hear that. Foul-mouthed Italian guy. He's this foul-mouthed Italian called Gunter because he's from Northern Italy.

Speaker: And he says fuck, but you would spell it F-O-K. And he is a delight, and we all love him. Yes. yeah He's a commentator now. Oh, that's a good role for him.

Speaker: Yes. It's perfect. Drivers from all over the world have worked their way up from Formula One through the lower formulae. formulae Formula X. Yep.

Speaker: Much the same way kids work their way up to the NHL from junior teams, starting often at young ages, though kids though the younger kids start in carts. Because I've tried several times to write a good description of a cart and failed, I've included a link in the show notes to a photo gallery of an FIA carting event.

Speaker: What is the FIA, I hear you ask? It's the International Automobile Federation. Can we see the pictures, Tracy? um No, yeah because... okay.

Speaker: You see the theater of the mind, Jen. Okay. Or just, ah you know what? You're at a computer. Just look up ah Harding a Motorsport. If you give me a second, picturing if you give me a second i will send you the link.

Speaker: okay Oh, okay. Oh, those little go-karts. I see. Oh, I've done that before. Yeah, and but think about it at a serious competitive level with a lot of money behind it. and that's where it So you think about go-karts, you can drive it sort of you know as a kid where you build your own or you go to the mall and do the go-karts there and then recognize that this kind of racing... And I'm saying as someone who is a genuine dilettante about Formula One, because Tracy knows stuff and I don't. I just happen to absorb absorb through by Tracy through osmosis. But because this is the feeder system for international motorsport, which has billions of dollars attached, karting can get very serious business.

Speaker: It is very serious business. So imagine it. Imagine this event with all the the childhood joy and liveliness just sucked out of it by capital. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker: Okay. Yeah. That sounds about right. That's kind of the theme of Formula One a lot of the time. Yeah.

Speaker: Anyway, so what were you talking about? Oh, the FIA. Yeah. yeah ah The FIA is the International Automobile Federation, headquartered in Paris. It's the governing body for world motorsport and international motoring organizations. Keep this in mind because we'll be talking more about the FIA later on. Okay.

Speaker: Fédération Internationale des Automobiles. Yep. F-I-A. Okay. Yep. It's just in English. Or in my French. Sorry. It's better than mine. I didn't even attempt it. Okay. Well, somebody had to humiliate themselves.

Speaker: And for once, it wasn't me. Oh, it never is. For some reason, I just cannot pronounce French words properly. It's all good. Okay.

Speaker: The races are called Grands Prix and held all over the world, with the most famous and extravagant being the Monaco Grand Prix. My personal favorite is the Belgian Grand Prix. Each Grand Prix circuit is unique, with varying numbers of corners and elevations. There are no oval races in F1.

Speaker: There are 24 races on the 2026 F1 calendar, starting in Australia in March and ending in Dubai. and No, ending in Abu Dhabi in December.

Speaker: yeah Because Formula One is a very much a, not just a wealthy person sport, but it is the wealthiest wealthy person sport. There's a lot of Gulf state oil money going into getting Formula One in the area.

Speaker: Yeah. Okay. A lot of it. Where does the Belgian Grand Prix take place? I like Belgium. Belgium. It's in Spa.

Speaker: Spa, yeah. Spa for charms. Why not Belgium? I just meant

Speaker: insulting me wait a minute something said not good sorry but i was you know what i asked where i'm like i don't even know where spot is so okay belgium uh yeah that's that's the best i could do it's in yeah it's the best i can do is it's in belgium okay that's fair i got a computer in front of me can even look it up i just want the clicks fair

Speaker: In order to determine who starts where on the starting grid for the race on Sunday, there's a qualifying session held on Saturday. In q one the first session, everyone gets a chance to put it in the fastest lap they can do. Then in the second session, the bottom cars are knocked out and only the top 15 cars get to go on.

Speaker: There's one final session that's only the top 10 fastest cars. Whoever puts in the fastest lap times. ah Oh, whoever puts in the fastest lap lines up at the front of the starting grid, which is called pull position. And everyone else slots in based on their qualifying time.

Speaker: Oh, I see. So they start behind because you can't have them. Yeah, you can't have them all side by side on the track. And so there's yeah and so they're lined. There's two lines and they're staggered.

Speaker: Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker: The race itself is pretty straightforward. They either run for 305 kilometers or two hours, whichever comes first. During the race, the cars have to make pit stops for changes of tires.

Speaker: They used to refuel the cars too, but that was deemed too dangerous. There are some pretty wild pictures of fires that resulted from fuel stops. So why is this just they're such a hurry? They're being careless?

Speaker: ah Little things can go wrong and you get like one little spark and a problem with the refueling rig and suddenly there's fire everywhere.

Speaker: Think about it in these things about the wild logistics and sort of process behind F1 stuff. Mm hmm. Pit stops have to take place in as few seconds as possible because you have to refuel and you have to change your tires throughout the race.

Speaker: And so if you stop to refuel, what is the fastest way to refuel a car? A really wide hose. that fires the fuel in at the highest velocity it can do so without causing mechanical failure.

Speaker: And so what you've got is this team of people who swarm in and then suddenly the tires are off and there's this gigantic hose the size of your neck going in the size of the side of the car. And then ideally in around three seconds, the car's off. Well, when you re-second... For a good stop. During during refueling refueling era, they took longer because it does take a while to get the fuel into the car. So that's just for tire change.

Speaker: Yeah, modern pit stops are changes of tires and possibly like changes of the front wing. But you're looking for a time of about two seconds for a pit stop. Really? Yeah, they can change four tires in that span of time.

Speaker: Fast, fast. but but So I'm picturing fire hose of gasoline being blasted into a car in two seconds. Yeah, lots of room for error there. Because it can be vapors, somebody likes a cigarette, or what who just spark flies from another vehicle? like Yeah, thing that's exactly it. So it is a ah pit, like pit stops are risky. Everything about Formula One is risky.

Speaker: h Yeah. It is a dangerous sport that still occasionally sees drivers get killed. Oh, i would imagine so. Especially those narrow roads in Europe they're going through. Because they're going through cities and towns, is my understanding as well. Like Monaco, they're just... Monaco, they do go through the city. um But for the most part, they are on tracks.

Speaker: Oh, okay. i see. Yeah. yeah it's It's almost all circuit tracks. And again, it's a circuit. So you're doing laps. ah And ah most of the races are, yeah, purpose built tracks. But there's a couple of city races. Singapore is a city race, right?

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. um Yeah, and um there are some types of motorsport that do go through, like just on regular roads through cities and towns, and that's called rally, and that is a topic for another wonder camera.

Speaker: And Tracy's favorite form of racing. It is. I love Formula One, but I love rally more. Okay. I will soon learn the difference. Yes. In more detail.

Speaker: We can go to the Big White w Rally out by Kelowna. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's not that far from here at all. Exactly. What a camera road trip. Oh, yeah. And then after we've hung up with the racists, we can also go to the Motorsports Rally. Oh, Dave.

Speaker: It's called the Big White Rally. I think they actually changed the name, but still. That's good. Because I'm like, wait, that is a terrible. And there's still a street hall out here called Big White. The Big White Rally. That's just a terrifying string of words you want to hear altogether. Yes.

Speaker: Awkward. i don't love Kelowna. There's some arch comedian years ago I heard in a podcast describe it as Kelowna is like if Blink 182 bought a lake.

Speaker: I'm like, yeah. Who It was perfect. Oh my God. That is so good. yeah I love that. Yeah. I thought it ever since. I'm like, that's the vibe. Yeah.

Speaker: That was the greatest dance-outest city I've ever heard. Oh, my God. It's accurate. Yeah. But hey, yeah, no, they got go-kart tracks. That's where we used to go, actually, I was a thinking back to those when it was fun, you know, go-karting. Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, Kelowna has a really good... um facility yeah which i haven't been to since like the late 90s so right well because yeah you're from that area so this is going to become the that the 90s reminiscence hour but did you ever go to bedrock city no really no no never went there's flintstone land or whatever like it just a stone theme park yeah there was the giant fred flintstone on the side of the road yeah yeah It was terrifying in retrospect, but it was pretty fun. No, Kelowna had all the fun things to do.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Kelowna trips used to be a big deal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so funny. Back in the day. Mm-hmm. Good old 90s. Yeah. Where everything was perfect.

Speaker: I'll give better than now, but anyway, we digress. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: Anyways, after the race, there's a podium ceremony where the drivers and the winning constructor are presented with trophies and bottles of champagne are handed out, to which the drivers then soak each other with. But of course. What's the song that always plays? ah Oh, God, what is it? I can't think of the name of it.

Speaker: It's a really famous song, though. Yeah.

Speaker: But they're on down here they're with Gatorade. It's a champagne. Oh, Liz Toreadors. Oh, yeah. you When you hear it, you'll immediately know it. It's like a ah very European-sounding victory classical music piece.

Speaker: At the very end of the race, the drivers and the constructors are awarded with points. The top ten finishers receive a certain amount of points based on what position they finish in. Constructors receive a total number of points for both cars.

Speaker: Constructors receive total number points for both cars. constructors receive the total number of points for both cars Go ahead. This is a really ah like I don't know anything about the story genuinely, but a really important thing for Jen and her non F1 pilled viewers to understand is that the car and the driver are like a marriage of separate entities that are kind of but the car is as important as the driver and kind of its own character.

Speaker: So that's why there's a Constructors' Championship as well as a World Championship because the cars are constantly being engineered and the formula that are within the rules are constantly... like Everyone is trying to find ways to push boundaries and create new engineering feats in order to push the motorsport as far as possible without violating the rules. And so ah the difference between a good car and a bad car will often eliminate the difference between a good car but a good driver and a bad driver.

Speaker: So a great driver on a team that's producing a shit car is going to have a bad season. And this is a yeah huge, huge thing is the cars, the secrets surrounding the cars and all the engineering and absurd amounts of money that goes into it is a wildly important part of the sport. And your goal is to always pair the right driver with the right car.

Speaker: Yeah. And then you can yeah then you can get some absolutely unstoppable combinations like Michael Schumacher with Ferrari, Lewis Hamilton with Mercedes, Max Verstappen for a few years with Red Bull.

Speaker: ah we i know him because he's a Dutch guy. yeahp so i just yeah You take one look at him and you're like, you are not the best of the Netherlands has to offer, sir. no so No, I don't think I think he is.

Speaker: um oh no. In terms of motorsports drivers. No, in terms of like so ah ah ah in terms of like sports heroes, sure. Yeah. terms of solid human beings? No, I don't know. I don't think he's a terrible person. don't think so. He just kind of comes as, he's just I don't know, he's just unappealing.

Speaker: He's a guy that wants to race cars and do his job and he doesn't want to be bothered with the rest of it. He's sort of like Connor McDavid without the charm. um um He probably only wants to think about cars. It's one of those... It's like David Foster Wallace, I say, about tennis players. He's like, all they think about is tennis.

Speaker: the Yeah, same with... It's just tennis. I think all professional athletes are like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, constructors then receive money based on the points they finish...

Speaker: Based on, oh, sorry. Constructors then receive money based on the position they finish at the end of the year, which can really help the smaller teams, but that's a rant for another time.

Speaker: If you're at all curious, I've included a link to a YouTube video with a basic overview of the sport and one that explains it all in more detail. We don't have to watch it now, but it's just, ah it's a couple minute YouTube video.

Speaker: But it's Formula One because it's, Specific formulas to build a car. Is this my under... Is this correct? Yeah, the formula is the rules and regulations surrounding building the car.

Speaker: Okay. And these are always kind of changing and updating as technology changes, yes. Okay. yeah And there's a Formula 2, for example, which is the next step down in motorsports. Really? Everything is a feeder series going up to Formula 1. Oh, okay.

Speaker: Good to know. Yeah. Okay. So now that you have a ground level of and a ground level understanding of Formula One, let's take a look at the scandal that rocked 2007, commonly known as

Speaker: I'm just picturing that James Bond movie where he drives a car just off a bridge and goes flying. You know, every James Bond movie I think has that scene. But Spygate, I'm just picturing an F1 car. Also rocketing off a bridge. The Monaco Formula One race is the most James Bond shit that's ever existed. That's probably I'm picturing, yeah, because it's these European cities, high stakes, really fast, fruit carts being overturned. Yeah, and like expensive casinos and high stakes races. Yeah, that's, I'm not a James Bond person. Loads of celebrities. But I'm dead certain the Monaco Grand Prix shows up in at least one movie, if not a couple. Yeah.

Speaker: yeah Definitely not a James Bond person either, but that's another rant for me. i'm just kidding.

Speaker: Now, as we get into the story itself, we're going to talk about a man named Nigel Stepney. He came into Formula One as a mechanic at the age of 21 back in 1977. This was the start of a long F1 career that also saw him at Lotus and Benetton. In 1993, he moved to Ferrari and became their chief mechanic, then the race test and team technical manager.

Speaker: In the mid-90s, Ferrari team principal Jean Tott put together the holy triumvirate of famous driver Michael Schumacher, technical director Ross Braun, and chief designer Rory Byrne, and they became the architects of Ferrari's most dominant era in F1.

Speaker: Nigel Stepney was moved to be in charge of the race mechanics. The race mechanics. So as you say, these are just huge organizations basically built around perfecting these cars and winning races.

Speaker: Yes. m Yeah. There's a lot of people that are involved, a lot of money. Well, like athletics coaching too, athletics teams and whatnot. And F1 usually exists attached ah to existing businesses, but not always.

Speaker: ah So for example, Ferrari does a lot more than just F1. Obviously they make Ferrari cars, but Ferrari's F1 team has been a ah They almost function like an advertisement for the business as well as a way a way to make money as well. But we make the coolest, fastest cars on the planet. That's kind of a thing, which is why yeah yeah major manufacturers are things like Ferrari or Mercedes or Red Bull.

Speaker: Red Bull is customer. Red Bull is one of the biggest teams out there. yeah It's so interesting. Yeah, because if everyone's a Ferrari, Mercedes, that makes sense, right? Because, you yeah, that's kind of kind of what I was imagining it as well. is yeah it's you know You're probably sinking money into these teams in a way but it's oh look how it's also a way of maybe doing you know advancing your design technology in other ways, too, and also advertising the cars, like you say, super fast. Yeah.

Speaker: yep exactly get deep Yeah, Red Bull is really into like high stakes, extreme athletic stuff as a way to... like That's why they had What's-His-Nuts, who did the ah jump from... Felix Baumgartner. Yeah, Felix Baumgartner, who died not too long ago. But that Red Bull's always been into that kind of thing. And the really big teams do make incredible amounts of money because... There is so much money in Formula One. It is such a like yeah there's an absurd amount of wealth tied up in the sport.

Speaker: Yeah. But ultimately, the sort of root of it is, well, we can put out the fastest car. hmm.

Speaker: Stephanie's passion for motorsport, his organizational skills, and tough work ethic were a huge contribution to the team's success and reliability. He helped to instill structure and discipline. He also built a good working relationship with what Ross Braun and became one of his most trusted and loyal lieutenants.

Speaker: In Italy, where Ferrari is nearly a religion second only to the Pope, Stepney became a minor celebrity in the town of Marinello, where Ferrari is headquartered. By 2006, he was highly paid, earning over £750,000 per year, plus success bonuses. It reflected his importance and the esteem he was held in. Sure. Sure.

Speaker: At the end of 2006, Michael Schumacher retired. Only temporarily, he came back in 2010 with the Mercedes team, and Ross Braun decided to take a sabbatical. Stepney naively thought he could step in and take over as technical director.

Speaker: He was a skilled mechanic, definitely, but he wasn't a formally trained engineer. He was one of three right-hand men to Braun. The other two were Mario Almondo and Aldo Costa.

Speaker: When Almondo got the job, Stepney was furious. He didn't think Almondo had sufficient technical knowledge to lead the team's overall car development. Almondo originally came from Human Resources and previously was the head of Industrial Development Racing.

Speaker: industrial development of racing Oh, my God. I can just sense this guy seething 20 years in the future where ah he's like, I don't care if I have the formal engineering training. I'm the wunderkind ah super ah super technical guy. And then the guy from HR gets this job.

Speaker: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So he felt very, very strongly that he had been overlooked. Mm hmm. "'An angry, bitter Stephanie was becoming a loose cannon. "'Ill-advisedly, he went public with his grievances, "'which was not going to make him popular within the team.' In 2007, he told news website Autosport, I'm looking at spending a year away from Ferrari. I'm not currently happy within the team. i really i really want to move forward with my career, and that's something that's not happening right now. Ideally, I'd like to move to a new environment here at Ferrari. But if an opportunity arose with another team, I would definitely consider it.

Speaker: that's not that Is it that controversial, though? I mean, he's just stating... The facts and his feelings. But I guess you can't do that. That's the problem. Yeah, it's I imagine it would be the same with any team, but especially Ferrari, you don't criticize the team outside of the team.

Speaker: It's very much a breaking ranks thing. ah Yeah. They treat poorly. but brand ah Oh, wow I mean, ah you know where my opinions go on ah employees shit-talking their employer.

Speaker: ah But it's a it's politically scandalous to do so. ah particular like Kind of anywhere in sports. but particularly with Ferrari, whose brand is one of the most valuable brand brands on the planet. You put a Ferrari logo on a hat, you add $30 to it. It's ludicrous.

Speaker: Oh, yeah. Yes. but like That makes sense. And it's ah it's a whole team effort as well. So, you you know, that is, it isn't just should talking an employer. It's should talking ah your teammates that, you know, you to have cohesion with to do those, to prepare for those two second pit stops.

Speaker: Yes. Then, in an act of peak, he has to be given a factory-based job, saying he felt his presence at races was detrimental to the team's performance.

Speaker: ah ah So fine, I'll just make love notes. or That man is just salty. Yeah. So I fail to understand how such statements would prompt Ferrari to give him the technical director position. It's sort of a why-so-pale-and-wan-fond-lover line of reasoning. Right. Right. Yeah, it's like, I know what I'm going to do. Complain my way into a promotion publicly yes in a way that ah only harms my chances of advancing with the team. And in fact, reinforces that if I had this high stakes, high pressure job, I would crack under it immediately and start bitching to anyone who would listen in public. But hey, you know what? Maybe, well, maybe that indicates maybe he wasn't actually leadership material.

Speaker: Well, that strongly does so. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: It compromised his position and allowed for him to be moved laterally. It was possible that he thought his outburst might provoke Ferrari into dismissing him and he'd get a good payout, but the team didn't even so much as comment out on his lack of integrity and loyalty.

Speaker: without the protection Without the support and protection of Ross Braun, he made life more difficult for himself by alienating his peers. He told newspaper The Independent, I began to feel like I was some sort of traitor. People became scared to talk to me. The situation was unbearable.

Speaker: But he's not seeing the part he's playing or acknowledging that. It's just a series of unforced errors in my union stuff. I have seen people do this so many times. Which is ah even if they are legitimately aggrieved, doing everything possible to alienate any kind of support and refuse to, you know, just take the the correct path to get the best outcome for themselves because they just they they just want to be mad.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, that's true. And some people just cannot shut their mouth to save their own careers. Yes. That's a big lesson. Just shut up. As as angry as you are maybe take your time sometimes.

Speaker: Yeah. Good advice.

Speaker: Then in June 2007, the F1 community was shocked to learn that Nigel Stepney was to be the subject of a criminal investigation for sabotage. Ferrari wouldn't disclose the nature of the complaint or what Stepney was accused of. They just said that he was still an employee of the team.

Speaker: They didn't offer any additional information. Good Lord. Huh. huh criminal investigation for sabotage. So not a policy violation. He is violated like, like federal law or whatever law or whatever level of law was, ah was applicable in Italy.

Speaker: Yeah. Jesus. Okay. Okay. The result of an internal investigation led to Stepney's dismissal a few days later. He was accused of trying to contaminate the fuel system of Kimi Raikkonen's car before the Monaco Grand Prix.

Speaker: This caused Ferrari to make a formal complaint with supporting documentation to the Modena district attorney who launched a criminal inquiry. Oh, so this guy's off the rails. Yeah. So definitely... All right. Kimi Raikkonen is...

Speaker: The funniest guy to try to sabotage for some reason. So, Jen, for context, Kimi Raikkonen is a Finnish driver who is legendary for being kind of extra Finnish in that he is deadpan, stoic, mildly pissed off all the time, and blurts out stuff that is always just like...

Speaker: kind of incorrect for the so for the scene one of my favorites is uh he's receiving when you're driving you've got team orders or you've got instructions coming in from uh like basically from team headquarters uh telling you what to do and he just says leave me alone i know what i'm doing yeah that's a famous one yep Oh my God. Kimi Räikkönen of all people.

Speaker: Close circuit television at the factory showed Stephanie was paying unusually close attention to the refueling tank just before a suspicious white powder was found nearby. Police raided Stephanie's home in in Italy and discovered more of the white powder.

Speaker: Stepney denied the allegations and claimed he was a victim of a dirty tricks campaign by Ferrari in retaliation for his criticism of the company. Quote, I have confidence that I'll be cleared by the legal process that is now taking place. He told, end quote, he told journalist friend Jane Nottage, but it didn't stop him from disappearing to the Philippines for a holiday with his girlfriend and their child.

Speaker: Probably with a lot more white powder there, too, if you know what I mean. Oh, that's yeah Cocaine. Yeah, I assume so. yeah why Why would you put cocaine in a car, though? Isn't that stuff? Well, I guess if you're making enough money. No, but the white powder he's getting in the Philippines.

Speaker: Ah, yeah. Yeah. The white powder with sugar in the gas tank kind of thing? The dude has just gone completely snow blind, and he is convinced that the only way he can stop Ferrari is to get the cars high.

Speaker: but little bit shneefle, do ya? but this guy's behavior, it is like... when you break up with a guy and they immediately respond by doing something that confirms the very reason you broke up with them. Yes. You know what mean? It's like, we're not going to give this promotion. You're a bit of a hot head and you'd like to take petty revenge. I'll show you I'll get my petty revenge. You know what mean? It's literally that scenario. Like immediately after his half hour PowerPoint presentation on arcane. That's right. Oh,

Speaker: We'll get that first. Hey, new invention. I thought that would get a laugh instead of a groan, but I'll take what I get, I guess. Sorry for letting you down. theines All right. We just don't have a, yeah, we have poor sense humor. I'm sorry, Dave.

Speaker: Next time we'll we'll laugh. The lack of sense of humor is prominent selling point of this podcast. That's right. A few weeks later, the team principal Stefano Domenicali received a strange, rather concerning email from a photocopying shop, of all places, in Surrey in the United Kingdom, which he knew which he knew very well was McLaren territory.

Speaker: The information in the email suggested the white powder was the least of their concerns. There was now evidence of a more serious crime with more serious ramifications. The rift between Stepney and Ferrari grew wider and the whole situation became uglier. It was clear now that Stepney stole highly confidential data, including some of Ferrari's innermost secrets, and leaked it directly to rival team McLaren, who was in the process of dominating the F1 season and held a healthy lead in the Constructors' Championship.

Speaker: Oh my God. ah So just give me one moment here while I stand agog. ah Keep it running. You two vamp. We're leaving this in. We have to get in. God.

Speaker: i got a vamp. So cramped.

Speaker: You're cramped. I'm in the pod tent. Yeah. You got a blanket. right Well, if we're vamping. The pod tent looks cozy. Yeah, it's all right. I got nice blanket. going to get nice background going on.

Speaker: but Yeah. Oh. Oh, there we are He's returned with his McLaren cap. Baseball cap. Yeah, that was that was originally mine, but it it hurt my forehead, so Dave's been wearing It would leave like a bruise in the middle of my forehead. I'm now wearing Tracy's forehead-crushing McLaren hat.

Speaker: as yeah What's it made of? I don't know. Hat. It crushes your head. Just made out a hat. Yeah. But it's ah the tightest hat material in the world, just...

Speaker: Sorry, I'm just pinching Dave's head. Yeah, it's not even a flat brim. It just kind of pushes in your forehead a little bit. Maybe it'll make me smarter. doesn't work for me. You gotta to break it in like with shoes.

Speaker: yeah yeah wearing into your forehead like Just Eventually your bones will change shape. That's right. You can never take it off. and Now that I've horribly disrupted the podcast for a wardrobe change for a podcast. Because I'm a brilliant man.

Speaker: ah Well... It has now been sc discovered that, what's his name, Stepney? Stepney, S-T-E-P-N-E-Y. Stepney has leaked Ferrari information to McLaren in England.

Speaker: And some of McLaren sending an email may be wising him up to it, it seems like. Or somebody yeah are I guess we'll find out. it Was it a sort of the equivalent of a brown paper envelope under a door? Or was it a formal memo? We'll find out.

Speaker: So let's move over to McLaren now, specifically Mike Coughlin, McLaren's chief designer. He was known as something as a maverick something of a maverick there. He'd been at McLaren for five years and knew Stepney for about 20. They'd worked together over the years.

Speaker: So when Stepney felt he'd been betrayed by Ferrari, he reached out to Coughlin. h During a phone call in March 2007, Coughlin lent a sympathetic ear to Stepney's frustrations. He became more interested, though, when in a series of emails, Stepney suggested that certain features of Ferrari's 2007 car didn't comply with technical regulations. He referenced a spring-loaded device that moved the floor of the car in order to improve aerodynamic performance once the car reached a certain speed.

Speaker: There was also a rear wing flap separator that he judged to be illegal. Not only was Stepney offering inside information, he also had proof and email drawings to Coughlin. Coughlin confided in McLaren's managing director, Jonathan Neal. Neal was sufficiently concerned and instructed the IT department to block any further emails between Coughlin and Stepney.

Speaker: Yeah, because they don't want to get in shit either. Is that not industrial espionage? Yes. Yeah, so that's a big... As far as I know, it's a crime. Yeah. And so also, they don't want to he's an I thought he would be leaking something like, here is Ferrari's latest new super gadget that may go fast, and now you can use it too.

Speaker: But rather, he's just giving them information to snitch Ferrari out to the FIA. yeah Oh, it gets better. Oh, good. Continue.

Speaker: Coughlin flew to Barcelona. Yeah, he wore wing flaps. Sorry. yeah isn't Coughlin flew to Barcelona, claiming it was to tell Stephanie to stop communicating with him. But the meeting was the ideal opportunity for more inside information in the form of Ferrari's brake balance assembly. wow um Stop telling me these things. We're going to go to jail. No, you see, you have to. He can't shut the fuck up to save his career or his life. i believe i I genuinely believe that this is all just cocaine.

Speaker: Yeah, you know, it's not, it's an imbalanced behavior. so Yes, it could be, it sounds like drug-ass behavior. you need to tell the guy to stop leaking this information that will destroy everybody, and he just keeps info-dumping about it? Yes.

Speaker: Stephanie offered him a 780-page file of confidential Ferrari documents. LAUGHTER

Speaker: And what, like, just because, like, what's his end game ultimately? Destroy Ferrari in revenge, I guess. So, like, oh, they'll go to the FIA? what is he thinking is going to happen? Like, what is this? Yeah, that is a good question. Reveal secrets.

Speaker: Prophet? No.

Speaker: but Yeah. I'm just, what's the intermediary step? I'm telling this guy these secrets. Okay, well, what okay, now what? I think it's, you know, it in order to bring Ferrari down.

Speaker: Yeah, he just wants to ah he just wants to hit Ferrari, right? I've seen this kind of behavior where there is no endgame aside from cause harm to those who have harmed him.

Speaker: It's just revenge. And the notion that I can destroy Ferrari and ah like wreck their season and cost them millions upon millions upon millions of dollars by leaking this information to their top rival.

Speaker: So cocaine driven behavior, drastic decisions without thinking things through sort of like a one man Trump administration. you know, yeah you ever see Pete Hegseth, good Lord. um But I was about to say um this is being recorded in March of 2026. And ah the ah ah the Iran war has had more foresight than anything Stepney's done.

Speaker: Which is to say there's been no foresight in either Exactly. because this is the story yeah He's setting himself on fire too here. like This is very Pyrrhic. He's not... yeah He's never going to have a job again, presumably.

Speaker: No, he's just self-immolating in the hopes that Ferrari burns down with him. That's right. Well, don't think that worked out, but we guess we'll find out. Yes. In a subsequent affidavit leaked to the press, Coughlin said, my engineering curiosity got the better of me and I foolishly took the documents from him. I kept hold of the documents and took them home with me. He showed Jonathan Neal a few images and Neal told him to destroy them immediately.

Speaker: Coughlin did not. get it. cocklin and then had it ah but i like I mean, curiosity, right? If you're in this and you're at this level of engineering and motorsport and you get this kind of information, the temptation to just go through it and keep it and learn everything must be unbelievable.

Speaker: Genuinely, I kind of sympathize with that. Yeah. again No matter a scientific point of view, engineering lens. Yeah. Just like, oh, cool. Like, let's look at this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, no matter how fantastically stupid it is to hang on to those documents.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Coughlin then had his wife, Trudy, take the file to a photocopying place to have them scan to have the to have them scanned and put on a disc.

Speaker: They were in the heart of McLaren country, but the manager had happened to be a Ferrari fan. The manager didn't know Trudy, but from Googling her, he was able to discover her husband's identity. Additional searching also turned up contact information for Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenichelli.

Speaker: What a wow the wild coincidence that a Ferrari fan running the photocopying shop who gets wise to what's going on. Wow.

Speaker: Yeah, it was about that guy. None of this whatever have come to the surface. That's amazing. Yeah. Just never know. Hey. Yep. Yep. So the police raided Nigel Stepney's home a second time. After analyzing his laptop, investigators established that he had printed out all 780 pages. It contained comprehensive technical documents for the design and build of the F2007, the Ferrari 2007 car, including schematic drawings, technical reports, photographs, and other things. The Modena District Attorney's criminal inquiry widened.

Speaker: frari's lawyer had Ferrari's lawyer confirmed that they wouldn't have found out about the documents if it had not been for the manager in the photocopying shop.

Speaker: No, I guess there's no, ah like, code of ethics, like, right to privacy if you're getting, if you're photocopying your illegal documents. I was about to say there's, i mean, almost certainly not. your client privilege? Mike. Yeah. Wow, this guy this looks like industrial espionage. I should probably mention something.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. If you're getting photographs of a crime scene, you're going to call the cops. Things like this. Things that nature. Yeah.

Speaker: So meanwhile, Cochran had been suspended by McLaren. Ron Dennis, the team principal, commented on the matter to say that he would never sanction any illegal activities. At the Thursday press conference, he stated, I live and breathe this team, and there is no way anything incorrect would ever happen in our team.

Speaker: Dennis went on to say that this was a difficult time for him. Quote, my personal integrity is very important to me, and my company's integrity is even more important to me. We have never, he stated, to my knowledge, and certainly not, and certainly over the past few months, over this period, ever used other people's intellectual property. It is not it is not on our car. I am sure the FIA will confirm that either now or in the future, and that oh and that is the key message.

Speaker: He went on to say he thought some members of the media were a little harsh on McLaren and that he was certain the FIA and Ferrari investigations would prove that his team hadn't done anything wrong.

Speaker: Well.

Speaker: I mean, fair. That sounds ah unless we reveal that he was actually in on something that sounds like the sort of response any team principal would give. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Speaker: A few days earlier, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton, the drivers, were asked for comment on how these investigations were affecting them as drivers. Alonso said that it didn't affect them that much. They show up, they drive the car, they go home. Hamilton stated basically the same thought. I don't know about Fernando, but it has not made any difference to me. I've got one job, which is to get in the car and do the driving, and I don't think it has affected the team either.

Speaker: Interesting. Fernando is a higher up. I mean, the day to day stuff for them. Yeah, that's going to change yet. And also, I, to an extent, they're always going to say that, but also to an extent when you're in an athlete, and yes, F1 drivers are athletes for the occasional person who's argued against that.

Speaker: um At that level, shutting out drama and just focusing on your job is an essential skill to be good at that kind of job. It genuinely is.

Speaker: Fernando Alonso, also Tracy's favorite driver. Yes. Oh, okay. yeah How on... idea So Fernando Alonso, for the listeners at home, is very much somebody who got hotter as he got older.

Speaker: for now look How much did he look like a gosling at this point? um At this point, he had moved beyond hot Fernando at Renault phase and into shaven head Fernando Alonso at McLaren.

Speaker: His ears are too big for him to shave his head. What a terrible idea. i think i was I think it was the team's idea. Distracted by the gallery of Fernando Alonso pictures. So can you repeat that last bit?

Speaker: It's like, oh, he's a good looking guy. Yeah. And then um McLaren, I'm sure it was the team that made him shave his head, like cut his hair super, super short.

Speaker: No. Yeah. Because they ah had Ron Dennis had this thing about everybody looking just so. right And Alonzo's magnificent mane is one of the things that makes him a cutie.

Speaker: That's right. Exactly. All right. Yeah. Okay, let's focus. Back to the part. Yes. On the Friday of the... That long hair all day. I focus.

Speaker: On the Friday of the British Grand Prix, the Honda Racing team put out a statement. They wanted to clarify that earlier in the year, Stephanie requested a meeting with Nick Fry, the CEO of the team.

Speaker: They met in June with Stephanie bringing Coughlin with him. The two men were interested in possible job opportunities with Honda Racing. Nick Fry the Honda guy. Nick. Nick. Nick.

Speaker: Honda went on to stress that at no point during the meeting was any confidential information offered or received. Nick Fry informed John Tott and Ron Dennis of the meeting and offered to provide any information required by Ferrari and McLaren.

Speaker: So he's like, I had nothing to do with this. Our team is blameless.

Speaker: It would be very funny if he showed up at Honda and then his job interview just started jumping thousands of pages worth of confidential Ferrari information on the desk. It doesn't seem like it would be that far from but happening. You know, I was about to say he's showing up and he's just again. Yeah. So what would you say is one of your strengths? Stealing industrial data from Ferrari.

Speaker: song You're hired. Wait, yeah you can just have this. Yeah. Yeah, really? Really? Just because. i don't care what happens with it. You know, just get it out there.

Speaker: Yep. McLaren suspended Coughlin after a search of his house allegedly turned up hundreds of documents belonging to Ferrari.

Speaker: When Stepney returned to Italy from the Philippines to face the criminal charges against him, he talked to a select group of British journalists, complaining or sorry claiming there had been a high speed claiming there had been high-speed car chases and that he and his girlfriend were followed by cars with Italian plates. They cornered one of these cars, but the men inside refused to speak.

Speaker: step Well, you're fucking with Ferrari's money. So was about to say, don't know about the mafia stereotypes, but it still exists. So not saying, but you mess with money. Big deal. Be careful. Yes. Ferrari is one of the, yeah, it's a very big deal.

Speaker: I mean, what's the ah term for the Ferrari fans? There's a special word for it. Tifosi. Yeah. So it could also just be Tifosi, right? Just ah obsessive, deranged super fans. As you recall from our VTuber episodes, ah fans are weird.

Speaker: Or again, it could just be Ferrari with some lovely hired goons. Who knows? But the point is, is ah you know, don't fuck with the horse. Hired goons. yep I would have called them the Ferrarinos. But... what are they called the tuscanos i want to get punched in italy now that'll be fun i know ferrara reno sorry what are they called the tifosi tifosi i like that all right why why are they called that i don't know it's just the word for the hardcore ferrari fans i'm sure there's an analogy behind it just for some reason yeah they're doing the big uh italy race uh

Speaker: The Tifosi are the fans who show up on mass and they are rabid. Okay. Yep. By rabid Tifosi.

Speaker: Stephanie went on to deny that he copied the documents in question or sent them to Mike Coughlin. He says he knew he was being watched at the factory and that everything he said or did was being reported back, quote, and that people knew whenever I accessed files on the computer.

Speaker: Coughlin made a brief appearance the High Court in on July on july tenth This was curtailed after he agreed to provide a sworn affidavit and cooperate with Ferrari's investigations. In return, the company agreed to withdraw the application it made against him to the district attorney in Modena.

Speaker: as soon as the lawyer As soon as lawyers were engaged, McLaren announced its own internal investigation. They hired a private security firm to carry out an audit of its computer systems. Two instances were found of Coughlin receiving Ferrari information, but evidence suggested that it didn't go any farther into the organization.

Speaker: Sorry, go on. So Coughlin, because he accepted this information out of likely just rank curiosity because he's an engineer, he just held on to it for his own of ah for his own edification rather than trying to circulate it within the company.

Speaker: Yeah. Probably. That's what they're going for here. Got it. It's a big illegal secret, though, to have. So, yeah. yeah you know Be careful with those.

Speaker: McLaren made it clear that Coughlin acted alone and no one at the team even knew about the situation before Ferrari began their legal action in applying for a search order of Coughlin's house.

Speaker: In the meantime, Stepney insisted that he was innocent and the victim of a conspiracy. I want to reveal some names of people inside Ferrari who had more interest than myself in doing what i'm in doing what I'm unfairly accused of. I have nothing against the team and I could never have done such things. I repeat, it's a conspiracy. It's so amazing that Darvo, when you start learning about that and seeing it, you can't unsee it. Because it's just like, oh no, this is exactly what I'm doing. are. Yeah.

Speaker: What's talking about for our listeners? was that? What's DARVO for our listeners? Deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. Yeah. I believe, i don't know. i'm not an expert in this. I just know about it through, again, osmosis and social media and things like this. It's basically just, yeah, you it's domestic abuse, usually a situation where somebody is being an ah is an abuser and then the person they're abusing, they accuse them of the things that the abuser is doing. So basically you're just... Just any aggressor who feels they're in the right. Yeah, yeah. I mean...

Speaker: Lord knows I see employers do this all the time. Yeah, exactly. yeah I'm the one who's being bullied here, yeah even though all of the problems stem from that person's behavior because they are aggressing. Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah. You keep telling me not to hit you, but when you do that, it makes me feel bad. So really, exactly it we're both kind the same. We're both equally bad or actually you're you're the one who's mortal. But its it's like that kind of thing. You see it in larger scale with governments. Again, not to bring up Trump again, but that's their playbook.

Speaker: Quite exactly is whatever you're doing. Every allegation is a confession. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. In short, that's the the more concise way to say it yesterday. right The floor of the Ferrari car also came up. Stephanie had emailed Coughlin during the season opening Australian Grand Prix to tip him off about Ferrari's movable floor design so McLaren could possibly take action over it.

Speaker: It wasn't known if Coughlin passed the information on to the team, but McLaren did ask for a rule clarification over Ferrari's floor design. The action resulted in the FIA changing its floor tests and banning the design Ferrari was running at the time, which could have hindered their pace.

Speaker: Oh, interesting. um so somebody else at McLaren then coincidentally, perhaps, yeah filed a complaint to the FIA about this floor design that was leaked to them, that they deny knowing about.

Speaker: Yes. h

Speaker: Ferrari went, or sorry, McLaren went before the World Motorsport Council, the WMSC, and FIA committee on July 26th. It was able to provide evidence that none of the Ferrari information was used by the team in the design of its own car.

Speaker: The WMSC decided not to punish McLaren for the action of a rogue individual, although the team found was found to be in breach of the sporting code. The outcome provoked fury from Ferrari. The only consolation was that new hearings could take place if new evidence was uncovered. And if that was the case, McLaren might be excluded from not only the 2007 championship, but also the 2008 one.

Speaker: Jesus.

Speaker: So it's getting serious. Yes. Yes.

Speaker: The statement for statement from the World Motorsport Council said, the WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of Article 151C of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this world know that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty.

Speaker: John Todd was livid and vowed Ferrari would appeal. m Revenge. Yeah. Revenge. Too many people want revenge. Well, and if I'm Ferrari, the coincidence of them...

Speaker: complaining about the very thing that was leaked to them but in order to prompt them to snitch because who knows what could have been passed verbally, right? That's exactly right. They have no electronic evidence. Yeah. Right. Just because you tell somebody. more it and However, I also get that in an investigation, well, can you prove it? And if you can't, you shouldn't punish someone for it. yes So I get why they were exonerated and I get why Ferrari was fucking livid.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And appeals, they're right. But at a certain point, though, it's like, all right. Yeah. drag things out.

Speaker: President of the Italian Motorsports Authority, Luigi Macaluso, who was a member of the 25-man WSMC, was stunned by the decision. I was the only one that tried to explain that McLaren was guilty, he said. For me, they are guilty, and that's that. Juventus were sent to Serie B for a lot less. This was in reference to match-fishing scandal in Italian soccer the year before.

Speaker: Hmm. this was in reference to a match- fixxing scandal in italian soccer the year before

Speaker: Renault team chief Flavio Briatore was battled baffled by the verdict. So I don't understand what happened. If the FIA admits to have established possession of Ferrari material by McLaren, then why is there no retribution?

Speaker: But that's the thing. They're not, theyre they are not, they're looking at it with their emotional sort of. Well, and do get. And I get it Probably something did, fishy did happen, but they are at a certain point, like you say, Dave, you do have to sort of look at what does the evidence show? Well, and it's, they're not looking at it from the legal perspective either. where There is a legal argument here. I mean, I don't understand the legal framework they're under, to be honest, but.

Speaker: Where one of their guys took the information and took it willingly. Now, the fact that there is no direct evidence that was circulated internally doesn't change the fact that one of their guys took the information.

Speaker: And I think that is the key thing that they're pissed about is And why, yeah, I get why there's no evidence it was used in any way to benefit McLaren.

Speaker: But McLaren's McLaren's employees still had it. And does that hang the entire company on the one employee's actions? And I can think of multiple instances where that probably would be the case. So I get why. i don't know what the right answer is and there isn't one, but I also get the counter arguments as I argue against myself, which I love to do. Yeah.

Speaker: Well, I'm just thinking this too. I'm wait, whose side am I actually on? I don't know. Like, I mean, it sucks. um You know, it sucks. It happened, but what you know, the only good guy here is Fernando Alonso.

Speaker: Probably. I hope. Well, Let's go from there.

Speaker: Ron Dennis lashed out at Ferrari saying, quote, McLaren's reputation has been unfairly sullied by incorrect press reports from Italy and grossly misleading statements from Ferrari.

Speaker: He went on to say that the actions of Stepney regarding the Ferrari floor at the Australian Grand Prix were whistleblowing, which should be encouraged in F1 rather than discouraged. He accused Ferrari of winning that race with an illegal car.

Speaker: where it was it are you are Wait, sorry. Are you whistleblowing or are you stealing information? right Because you can't have it both ways. Yeah. They can't say, oh, we didn't do anything with this, but we're whistleblowers. Well, and you're a whistleblower if you go to a whistleblowing organization like yeah ombuds, not to the rival team in secret. just Yeah. Blasting. Some guy, you know, that's exactly so. Yes. They can't say they're whistleblowers. Come on.

Speaker: Were it not for Mr. Stepney drawing this illegal device to the attention of McLaren, there is every reason to suppose that Ferrari would have continued to race with an illegal car.

Speaker: But Nigel Stepney, of course, came back at Dennis saying it wasn't him that tipped McLaren off to the illegal car.

Speaker: Hmm. Oh, now he's... Yeah, okay.

Speaker: Uh... he said that only He said that one only needed to look at the Ferrari to understand what was wrong, that it was obvious to people who worked in f one At McLaren, they knew without the need for whistleblowing, he says.

Speaker: h Now that might have been the end of it, except for the McLaren drivers, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso, whose relationship could only be described as ultra-toxic.

Speaker: Ah, toxic yaoi again. All right. Fernando Alonso had joined the McLaren team for the 2007 season, fresh off consecutive World Drivers' Championship wins. He had gone in expecting to be the team's number one driver since Lewis Hamilton was a rookie. Alonso had both the success and the seniority for this expectation.

Speaker: but no one was But no one expected Hamilton to be as good as he was, and so the position of number one driver wasn't as clear-cut as Alonso would have liked. It was a long, tense summer, and throughout the season,

Speaker: The advantage had gone back and forth between the two of them.

Speaker: This is hung ah so it when again and sort of watching bits of F1 with Tracy, this is a story that is repeated a few times where the veteran driver, ah somewhat veteran. I mean, God, Alonzo drove for a long time after this.

Speaker: ah comes in as the top guy, but then there's this rookie who is an absolute hotshot and the team is looking at this flashy young driver going, hmm. And then suddenly the hierarchy gets messed up and everyone hates each other.

Speaker: Yes. Now, is that what the movie F1 is about? Um, it's about a guy who was like a ringer for, uh, motorsport. Like he'd go in and win everything. okay. And he's, uh, they want him to do the same in Formula One to help, uh,

Speaker: Oh, one of the lesser teams. I think it was one of the lesser teams. Yeah. Yeah. Succeed. And there is the rivalry between the veteran and the hot op start, but also the veteran is an outsider and very, very sports movie you based on a true story or just totally. No, totally, and totally embedded. True stories are more interesting.

Speaker: Yeah. Honestly, because I was like, damn, because me, my mom and one of my sisters, we want to watch all the Academy a Award nominated movies. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, I keep saying, i don't want to watch F1. But now I'm like, oh, you know what? thing Watch F1 after ah doing this episode. It's not a bad movie. It is just a ah a movie where everything has gone into the practical effects and hiring Brad Pitt.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And I'm not, you know, yeah. For like really serious F1 fans, they got so many of the little details right. Yeah. That oh it feels good to watch it.

Speaker: Hmm. Even though the story is kind of dull. Fair enough. They should have got done, yeah, this story of this guy or the Alonzo Lewis Hamilton rivalry. That would be more interesting to you, you'd think.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, totally. The Hungarian Grand Prix was a flashpoint. There had been a, quote, breakdown in communication during the qualifying season. See, Hamilton had been leading through most of qualifying until Alonso got him right at the very end, finishing just over a tenth of a second ahead. But Hamilton, who...

Speaker: But Hamilton, who should have been able to go out one last time for a fast lap, was blocked by Alonzo in the pit lane, who was looking at his physiotherapist for a signal while the man was apparently counting off the seconds, leaving Hamilton to sit helplessly in the car.

Speaker: Oh my God. That's so bitchy. The result was that Hamilton was unable to get back out on track to put in a final qualifying lap before the time expired.

Speaker: Damn, I get road rage if somebody he doesn't start on a green fast enough for my liking. Yeah. I can imagine. like ah Get of my way, damn it. Yeah.

Speaker: Ron Dennis absolved Alonzo of blame in the incident, saying that McLaren had various procedures within the team determining how qualifying was going to be run, and Hamilton got away first, meaning the strategy for qualifying was now mixed up.

Speaker: This is ultimately what cost Hamilton his final lap. This left but both drivers feeling unhappy. but Both of them felt that their chance to take pole position was compromised. Hamilton and Dennis had a firm talk over the radio. Dennis took Alonso's physiotherapist with him down to park for May, where the cars are parked at the end of qualifying in the race, just in case both drivers needed to be calmed down.

Speaker: By physiotherapist? this He's like some magical guy who brings out a pan flute. Yeah. Everyone relax. The physiotherapist who's the Pied Piper of F1 drivers.

Speaker: How do you calm them down? Rubbing them behind their ears. Calm down. Calm blue ocean. Calm blue ocean. Yeah.

Speaker: Alonzo was marginally faster than Hamilton, but the FIA stewards decided he deliberately impeded Hamilton. Alonzo was demoted five grid places and Hamilton was promoted to pole position. He went on to win the race and extend his lead in the driver's championship standings.

Speaker: I'm sure Alonzo was cool about that. Yes. Now Ron Dennis had to try to repair the relationship between his two drivers while still maintaining the integrity of the team and the McLaren name.

Speaker: Right now, Hamilton isn't talking to anyone in the team, Alonzo said. The situation has changed a lot from one race to another. I don't have any problems. It's the team who has the biggest one. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Hamilton, not talking to Alonzo after qualifying, said at a news conference after the race, Alonzo doesn't seem to have been speaking to me since yesterday, so I don't know if he has a problem.

Speaker: but but ah I mean, at a certain point, again, you've got to use your words. Yeah. Yeah. Figure things out, you know. Use your words with each other, not to the media. What it is, it's just like sub-tweeting somebody where you're just speaking at a press conference about your... When I said, by the way, that top athletes shut out the drama and focus on their job, unless that drama is with the is their drama. If it's their drama, yes it's the only thing that matters because they are all yeah are they are all drama queens.

Speaker: Right. Yeah. An argument broke out between Alonso and Dennis on the morning of the race about his treatment by the team. Highly charged and aggrieved Alonso threatened to reveal to the FIA that Coughlin was passing Ferrari information to McLaren's Spanish test driver, Pedro De La Rosa, who shared some of these details with Alonso.

Speaker: Nobody can just shut their mouth. but No. It's like, didn't they learn? and we're now hearing about this for a reason. So, damn.

Speaker: Yes. McLaren had been adamant that no one in the organization other than Coughlin had access to the Ferrari documents. But this bombshell suggested that detailed information went deeper into the company. It implied major deceit on McLaren's part.

Speaker: Mm hmm. Dennis didn't believe Alonzo and very vocally maintained his team's innocence. In an act of damage limitation that backfired, Dennis felt compelled to take this new development to the FIA president, Max Mosley.

Speaker: A wonderful man, by the way. ah Would you like to know who Max Mosley's father was? Yeah. I don't like the sound of that last name. i think I can guess. Yeah. yeah Yeah. That is exactly who his father was. Really? yeah Formula one is, as we know, all everything relating to Pars is deeply tied in with fascism, except for Citroen for some reason.

Speaker: ah And Citroen, if I'm pronouncing that right. Citroen, yeah. Citroen. ah But Max Mosley was in a scandal as an octogenarian having a Nazi-themed sex party with sex workers.

Speaker: if You know? Like they were all dressed up as SS or something. It's just the most... It's so like, it's so grotesque, but it's interesting because yeah, John Ronson talks about Max or Max Mosley in the book. So you can publicly shamed as the one example of the guy who got away with it because he's like, yeah, I like it.

Speaker: Yeah. Like Nazi themed sex parties. what are you gonna do about it? I'm not a Nazi. He's a super powerful 80 billion year old, like fascist lich. And he's like, yeah, what do you expect?

Speaker: And so what I want to ask John Ronson on further thought is who does the woman who, you know, was did a bad tweet on a plane. Does she have millions of dollars and a family name that can protect her? that allow God, when she landed in South Africa and her life was ruined, the first person to be canceled by the Internet.

Speaker: Yeah, that's the thing. The whole idea is that it's like, no, no, no, no. It's because he wasn't ashamed. it's He's a rich guy. Yeah, no, he was just insulated from blowback. So, yeah, are you... Yeah, the Nazi sex party, pretty bad. Like, is it genetic?

Speaker: Like, what the fuck, man? Yeah. Just a cartoon villain of a man. Yes. yeah Anyway, a little little bit rant on that guy. But OK, this is the guy. This is the ah head of FIA, you said? sir Yes.

Speaker: Wow. Yeah, he is the president of the FIA. Right now? No, yeah he died in. Oh, well, good. A couple of years ago. Anyways, I can't remember. We put died in quotation marks. His phylactery has not been discovered.

Speaker: phylactery oh ah i'm i'm nerding out ah a phylactery is the vessel by which a lich puts its uh soul and therefore to kill a lich you must destroy the phylactery it's sort of like the from harry potter the voldemort horcrux thing it's that kind of thing but just an older idea I don't get any of that, but I understand. I forgot. Yeah, you've never read Harry Potter. There yeah the The notion is that there is probably some bit of ah World War two quote unquote, memory of memorabilia with a sun wheel on it or something. You have to destroy that. So Max Mosley does not rise again from the grave to torture us.

Speaker: Yeah, let's go find that crush it. That's going to be the Wonder Camera road trip is we are going to find and destroy the phylactery of Max Mosley. That's amazing. Well, that's the title of this episode.

Speaker: The title of this episode should be the phylactery of Max Mosley. What the hell is this about? And I yeah thank you for the explanation of phylactery. I don't judge you guys for learning how, by the way. It's a form of that just not aware of.

Speaker: Yeah. Mosley demanded that the three McLaren drivers, Alonzo, Hamilton, and De La Rosa, hand over any Ferrari information they might have received. Then he reopened the investigation based on the new evidence.

Speaker: In the meantime, rumors abounded that Alonzo was set to leave McLaren now at the end of the year instead of seeing out his contract, which had him there until the end of 2009. I'm shocked. Hamilton was forced to say that he and Alonzo were not at war. This seemed to strike everyone as somewhat amusing at the time, since it was obvious the two were at war.

Speaker: Also ah very similar to anything the American military has done over the past 30 years. It's not a war, bro, trust me. Department of War? We're not going to war. Yeah. Yeah. let's get our war fighters. and I mean... Yeah. Peace distributors.

Speaker: Jesus Christ. Unbelievable. ah Where were we? Former world champion Alan Jones weighed in on the not war. ron has got to Ron has got to get his drivers back in some sort of order. You can't just go on the rest of the season with all this going on.

Speaker: Reminding everyone that this is a team sport, not an individual one. Mm-hmm. Before the Turkish Grand Prix, which was the next event on the calendar, Ron Dennis made a statement about his drivers, saying that they had to sit down in Istanbul and clear the air. His claim was that he claimed they were communicating and neither had a problem with the other one. And his drivers each stated that there were no problems anymore.

Speaker: Alonso even said that he was happy to stay with McLaren for two remaining seasons on his contract, so long as the team continued to have a winning car. This sounds like foreshadowing. Sorry, go on.

Speaker: yeah Meanwhile, Flavio Briatore seemed to attempt to put a catch amongst the pigeons, saying that Renault would welcome Alonso back with open arms. ah Right.

Speaker: On the Wednesday of the Italian Grand Prix race week, the FIA dropped a bombshell. They claimed there was new evidence in the but there was new evidence in the spying case. Instead of the appeal by Ferrari to the original ruling, the WSMC would be reconvened for a hearing on September 13th, though the FIA would not comment on what this new evidence might be.

Speaker: Ooh.

Speaker: The new evidence the media learned came from the drivers themselves, forcing Fernando Alonso to comment that it would be stupid of him to try to damage the team, since doing so since in doing so, he would also damage himself.

Speaker: He said that he didn't accuse the team of anything. He just replied to the FIA with honesty and professionalism. Ha ha ha ha

Speaker: Why are people so mad? I was just being honest.

Speaker: I mean, that's the thing. Maybe he was, but it's also like you can't, but also like After the Italian Grand Prix, where McLaren beat Ferrari on their home turf, John Taught made it very clear that Ferrari hadn't accepted the FIA's original verdict. If McLaren was exonerated, Ferrari said they would take the matter to the civil courts and pursue the claim that McLaren benefited from Ferrari's intellectual property.

Speaker: oh The Thursday following the Italian Grand Prix, lawyers and principals from both teams were called to a meeting at the FIA headquarters in Paris. The FIA now had 288 text messages, 35 phone calls, and 23 emails between Stepney and Coughlin, provided by the Italian police.

Speaker: Together with the series of incriminating emails that included dialogue between Coughlin and Stepney and between Coughlin and Alonso and De La Rosa, oh some of the Some of the emails were eventually made public, like this rather damning one from Dilarosa to Alonso. Quote, all the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic. I don't know what post he holds now.

Speaker: He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping on lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlin, our chief designer, and told him that. Oh, so this is exactly what Ferrari thought it was. Just exactly. Straight up. Everyone's just gossiping.

Speaker: Yep. Yep. Yep. They're just sharing this information. An electronic record. Like smart people. Yep. Yes. The information that De La Rosa got from Coughlin was passed on to Alonso and passed on to Alonso included details of the 2007 Ferrari car's weight distribution, the type of gas used for tire inflation, flexible rear wing and pit stop strategy deployed at the first, a flexible rear wing and pit stop strategy deployed at the first race in this of the season in Australia. The WMS... So it's been corrupted then.

Speaker: yeah That season is basically corrupted because it's like there's all this kind of cheating going on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: The WMSC found that Coughlin had more information than previously thought and there and had been receiving it in a systematic manner over a period of months. The following points were determined. That the information had been passed to, at the very least, Alonzo and De La Rosa. That the information that had... That the information that... Hold on.

Speaker: This doesn't make any sense.

Speaker: That the information that got out not only included highly sensitive technical information, but also secret information on Ferrari's sporting strategy. That De La Rosa, in the course of his duties, requested and received Ferrari information from an illegitimate source and stated it was for running tests in the simulator.

Speaker: That the secret information in question was shared with Alonso. oh so yeah ah Oh, no. That there was intent. That there was intent by a number of personnel to use information in testing. yeah That Coughlin's role within McLaren put him in a position that his secret that his knowledge of secret Ferrari information would have influenced the way he did his job.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This new evidence meant fresh conclusions that the Ferrari information had gone deeper into McLaren than first realized. And the FIA did what they should have done and overturned the previous McLaren ruling. Because it couldn't be proved that this information helped improve McLaren's car, the World Motorsport Council was of the opinion that evidence given by De La Rosa showed there was no reluctance to use and test the information for any potential benefit.

Speaker: Right. Yeah. This completely overturns everything we said previously, according to the information at that point, which is this was not one guy getting one stack of documents and sitting on it for personal use.

Speaker: This was a constant feed of trade secrets from the one company to the other over a period of time, which were then used. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: So that's a little guilty, a little damning. yes just a bit The FIA restated its view that Coughlin was a single rogue employee and judged that Article 151c had been breached and penalty was now the only course of action.

Speaker: Spygate was slowly tearing F1 apart and soiling their public image. Any action taken by the FIA needed to demonstrate the FIA's authority with clarity, and any punishment would likely be extremely severe to reflect long-term damage inflicted on the sport.

Speaker: On September 13th, Max Mosley delivered the verdict. McLaren would be stripped of all points for the season and be disqualified from the Constructors' Championship, which they had been leading.

Speaker: The drivers would be allowed to keep their points in return for their cooperation. McLaren was given a... Go on. McLaren was given a 100 million US, 100 million dollars US fine. This eye wateringly large and unprecedented penalty remains the biggest fine in the history of all sports.

Speaker: Really? This is a bigger fine than I would see from governments towards companies that have killed thousands of people. Yes. Yep. Wow. and Particularly in 2007. That is a ah I mean, a hundred million dollar fine on Apple nowadays would be nothing but 2007 towards a motorsports company, which no matter how much wealth is in there, they're still not, you know, top. ah That that's insane. Yeah. That's an actual fine that hurts.

Speaker: Wow. Accountability. It is possible. man a technical delli go on sorry yeah A technical delegation would be dispatched to inspect McLaren's 2008 car to determine if any Ferrari information had been incorporated into its design and manufacture.

Speaker: If you're interested in reading the full decision by the World Motorsport Council, there is a link to it in the show notes.

Speaker: Ron Dennis maintained the penalty was unjust. The team never denied that Ferrari information was in the personal possession of one of their employees, but it hadn't been proven that any of the information was actually used.

Speaker: Come on. and so that's That said, he's going to say that, right? Although a mea culpa at that point is, you know, after a certain point, you have to get on your knees and shout, I have sinned.

Speaker: ah But yes nobody does that in the corporate world. No, no. The World Motorsport Council admitted no firm evidence that McLaren had used the... The World Motorsport Council admitted that no firm evidence that... Oh, what is wrong with the sentence?

Speaker: The World Motorsport Council admitted to no firm evidence that McLaren had used the information. They felt Coughlin hadn't needed to copy the complete design to benefit from the knowledge found in the documents. Mosley justified the fine by saying, "...the sum of money is less than the difference between McLaren's budget and those of teams like Williams or Renault, so it's a very minor punishment. All we're doing is bringing Dennis's budget down to the level of some of the other top teams." He also suggested McLaren was lucky not to be suspended from the 2008 season as well.

Speaker: Yeah. Max Mosley and Ron Dennis never had a good relationship, so Max was quick to clarify this wasn't a vendetta.

Speaker: McLaren could, at that time, take some solace in the fact that their drivers were leading the standings of the Drivers' Championship. Hamilton was two points up on Alonso. However, Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen ended up winning the driver's title by a single point over the warring McLaren teammates, who'd finished tied for second place.

Speaker: Well, maybe jimmy he had fewer distractions. And that is the last championship that Ferrari won. Oh my God, it is. Yeah. doesn't haven Sorry.

Speaker: From 2008. That was 2007. Seven. Wow. Okay. So this kind of, this is a lasting impact then. Hey, or just coincidentally, they haven't been able to.

Speaker: Yeah. It's just a, the sport is, yeah. A bunch of things have changed over time. The, uh, aftershocks has certainly felt for years, but now they've just been beat by the other teams after a certain point.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Coughlin received a substantial personal fine and was banned from taking part in F1 for two years. He came back as technical director at Williams in 2011 after a public expression of remorse for his role in the scandal.

Speaker: Nigel Stepney, meanwhile, continued to protest his innocence. He insisted that he had a legitimate reason for having all those documents, that it was for work with the team simulator. He claimed that after the discovery of the papers and the white powder, he was spied on and harassed.

Speaker: He probably was spied on and harassed because he needed to be spied on and harassed. Yeah. Like that is the correct thing to do when you find somebody trying to trying to invent arcane.

Speaker: Again, it's like, maybe look at your own behavior here, buddy.

Speaker: Stephanie maintained that Ferrari tried to discredit him because he knew all the company's secrets. Quote, Ferrari is terrified that what I have in my mind is very valuable. I guess I know where the bodies are buried from the last 10 years, and there were a lot of controversies at that time.

Speaker: but after two people are saying they know where the bodies are buried. You're like, okay, you're just, you're getting to. This is just somebody posting on Facebook saying, I hate drama and I'm honest, but I'm, and I'm honest, but loyal, but don't catch me. Like that kind of stuff where somebody is just doing this outright denial of I'm too beautiful and perfect to have ever done anything wrong. Meanwhile, everyone around them is like,

Speaker: burning to the ground with rage. Like, well, cause it's this whole thing with, you know, I don't know if it's social media, but people's behavior in general, where they, they have these just outsized reactions, which at certain point you gotta just chill It was passed over for a promotion. Jesus. Like it's such a, they're going kill me and come after me. And and not everything's a conspiracy. It's conspiracy. that Sometimes you give away industrial secrets and,

Speaker: To a There is a to pay. And you get in trouble for it. Like, it's not there to get me. But again, you have to construct these elaborate realities to justify your own victimhood, I suppose. Yep.

Speaker: Elaborate fictions. Yes. Anyway. But after Stephanie falsely claimed that he had no idea how Coughlin got the documents, everything he said was treated with disbelief.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Nigel Stepney was convicted in Italy of sabotage, industrial espionage, espionage and sport fraud in 2010. He was sentenced to 20 months in prison, but never served any time. He never worked in F1 again, but he did return to motorsport.

Speaker: He helped the JRM racing team win the 2011 GT1 World Championship with Nissan cars. I mean, considering he was ah allegedly extremely good at what he did, bet he came on the cheap. Yeah.

Speaker: Well, that's right. yeah just You gotta just deal with the loose cannon behavior, but... Plus, he knows all the shit about Ferrari that would really help out the small team. That's great. That's true. Yeah. That's why some people fail up, I suppose. Well, and, you know, those yeah products you can buy at the hardware store of questionable value to, like, boost the value of your ah gasoline?

Speaker: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's got car cane. They're set. Stop trying to make car cane a thing. She don't lie. She don't lie. She don't lie. Car cane.

Speaker: Okay. You got jingle and everything, Dave. You got to get that, you know, marketing power. Absolutely. and explain bit the product Go to copyright jail because that is an Eric Clapton song.

Speaker: Oh, no. But car cane. If you get permission. It's pretty easy. It literally, it's just cocaine that you put in your gas tank. Exactly. It's more of a concept than a product. Go

Speaker: to Trayton's tent. Yeah, you see? There you go. let Early in the morning of May 2nd, 2014, Stephanie was killed in a road accident. Apparently, he threw himself in front of an articulated lorry on the M20 motorway in Kent. He had been driving home from Belgium when he parked his VW van on the hard shoulder, turned off all the lights, got out, and locked the doors.

Speaker: From the Dutch lorry driver, quote, all of a sudden I saw a figure in person dive out from the left. His arm was stretched out above his head. It was almost as if he'd been crouching down in front of the van and thrown himself into the path of my vehicle.

Speaker: Stepney was killed instantly. Yeah. Good Lord. Even his way of killing himself is extra. Yeah. Yeah. That is that's so...

Speaker: Wow, what a messy, awful way to, like, go and also ruin a truck driver's, you know, time. from That life genuinely traumatizes people for life. like Yeah, of course it would. Imagine somebody threw themselves in front of your damn car.

Speaker: oh yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Jeez. Again, kind of, but that is sort of the narcissistic personality or people, again, I'm armchair psychologizing, but people who are outsized like that, at a certain point, would what does it come to, right? they All you can do is double down. All you can do is double down. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: yeah And it's, I'll show you and eventually you end up killing somebody or yourself. Yeah. Or going to war with Iran, but hey, you know, depends on power you have to exercise your thought. Not that this is weighing on all our minds right now in March 2026. I know. twenty six ah It's just so applicable. What an end. Holy crap. that three ribs like I was trying to combine gruesome and grisly.

Speaker: Grizzlim. Grizzlim? I like it. Yeah. Police confirmed the lorry had been driving within the speed limit of 56 miles per hour or 90 kilometers an hour. Damage to the front of the lorry showed that Stephanie was not standing upright when he was hit and that he was moving from left to right.

Speaker: Despite the evidence that he completed suicide, the coroner said that... of the coroner said...

Speaker: What? I didn't read this very well, apparently.

Speaker: Oh, despite the evidence that he completed suicide, the coroner said she couldn't be certain he intended to take his own life and recorded an open verdict. This led many this led to many conspiracy theories about whether he jumped or had been pushed.

Speaker: At the inquest, it was heard that he had asked a friend to witness some documents for him. When she met him, she was shocked to find that he actually wanted her to be the trustee of two life insurance policies he'd recently changed.

Speaker: She signed the papers on April 29th, three days before his death. Foul play wasn't was unlikely, even if it couldn't be ruled out. Mm-hmm. So that's conspiracy theories. They take out, they rerun. It's like with the Kurt Cobain conspiracy theory as well. Yeah. They take an absence of certain facts as like proof of a vast conspiracy and foul play. This guy obviously did it. Well, and also what would be the point of orchestrating an elaborate hit with a freaking Lori?

Speaker: That is an awkward way to kill somebody. You have to time it kind of right. Like, it's just nonsense. know. Even like that the Princess Diana one, too, I think you're wrong about did an episode of like really hard to engineer a car accident.

Speaker: kill Yeah. That's an excellent just to shout out an excellent podcast episode. You're wrong about about Princess Diana. That's i be I'm very sympathetic to that to her now, which doesn't matter yeah because she passed away a while ago.

Speaker: Anyways, you were trying to end the podcast and we went off on conspiracy theories. yeah So that's the story of Spygate. You'd think after consequences like these, teams would think twice about cheating. But you'd be wrong. Look up Crashgate for an incident that happened the following year.

Speaker: Crashgate? Okay, that's the next episode you gotta do, Tracy, because now I gotta know what Crashgate is. You're hiding car crashes. Did they throw a tarp over them and paint them to look like the landscape? That would be good.

Speaker: okay hey Alright, well, that was a lot of fun. what ah like Genuinely, what a great story. You actually made me care about Formula One racing. Like I said, yeah. Very good story. Thank you, Tracy. That was that was amazing. Really appreciate all the details and and your knowledge as well. Because again, we're dilettantes, but as Dave has alluded to previously, we have some expertise in some areas.

Speaker: Or we just have stuff we know more about than other things. I've been watching Formula One for about 30 years. so Have you been in person? No, I've never been in person. It's too expensive.

Speaker: Right. Because in there, what would be the closest North American one? Montreal. Montreal. Really? oh Although I think Texas might technically be. Oh, no. Las Vegas. There's a Vegas one now.

Speaker: Yeah. vegas at ah Vegas would probably be the closest one. But that involves the American border. It is something we intend on eventually doing. But Montreal. Yeah. Nice. Hey, Montreal and F1. Can't go wrong.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. ok no on Not unless you ask the Montrealers about it. It's divisive in the city. All right, well, thank you everybody for listening to the podcast and we will see you in a couple of weeks for our next Wonder Camera.

Speaker: That's right. And it's my turn. And this time I will be ready, Dave, and I will get my revenge on you for giving me a heart attack at the beginning of this episode about my... Who's hosting, Jen?

Speaker: yeah but It is my turn. It is my turn. just Forget that i told you going to get revenge. Okay. All right. wake on memory Take care, of everyone. Good.

Speaker: Okay. Bye.

Speaker: Thank you for listening to The Wonder Camera. Find us under The Wonder Camera on Blue Sky, YouTube, and Instagram.