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Days of AR-CHIVES with Kelly Brown - Ep 67
352 Plays4 years ago
In this episode of the A Life in Ruins Podcast, we interview Kelly Brown, the Archives Lab Manager at the Augusta Veterans Curation Program. Her main job component is managing archives, her secondary responsibility is being David's workplace babysitter.
She recently graduated with a Master's Degree in Library and Information science (MLIS) and has accepted a position at the Savannah River Site Museum in Aiken, South Carolina. We discuss Kelly’s background in archaeology from the University of Georgia and her field school on the Georgia coast.
Kelly provides the three hosts a glimpse into the world of archives and documentation and discusses why information science is important in all fields, especially in archaeology
Most of the episode, however, is the roast of David Howe’s illiteracy.
Literature recommendations:
1) Google “IMLS” and look it up yourself, pleib
2) TDAR - The Digital Archaeological Record
3) Society of American Archivists
Guest Contact
- You can find Kelly Brown on LinkedIn. That's it.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 67
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Meet Kelly Brown
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to Episode 67 of a Life in Ruins podcast, to re-investigate the careers of those living life in ruins. I'm your host Carlton Gover, and I am joined by my co-host Connor Johnin and David Howe. On this episode, we have the pleasure of chatting with Kelly Brown, a graduate student at the University of South Carolina, where she is just about to graduate with a Master's of Library and Information Science. You may also know Kelly as a member of the SAA Archives Committee and the Archives Lab Manager at the Augusta Veterans Curation Program.
00:00:42
Speaker
where she not only co-manages the laboratory with Ding Dong David, but also manages his illiteracy, something that we all struggle with here at the APN. Also, Kelly recently accepted position as the museum director of the Savannah Riverside Museum. Congratulations, Kelly, on the new job.
Kelly's Academic Journey
00:01:00
Speaker
How are you doing this evening? Doing great. Thanks for having me.
00:01:04
Speaker
Uh, yeah, it's weird having you, I like bring different friends on and different coworkers on that meet each other and it's weird, but it's cool. These guys work with me every day. That's how you're explained. You guys know how it goes. I do work when I do and same thing at my other job. So, you know, we'll move, we'll move past it. Kelly, how are you today? I'm doing good. I just saw you a couple hours ago. True. Yeah. She was trying to help me figure out how to do my taxes and we both gave up on it.
00:01:34
Speaker
Yeah. Isn't tax season very over? Yep. Okay. Why are you doing this? I was changing my claim. The IRS has entered the chat. Sometimes you just don't question David.
00:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So Kelly, did you finish all your coursework for your graduate degree? Is that where you're at? No, I literally have one project left to do. It's due on August 2nd and then I'm done.
00:02:11
Speaker
I actually turned in my final portfolio stuff last semester and it's been reviewed and I passed that. And so I have to do this final summer course and then I'm done. I've graduated. So that's how close I am to being done with my master's degree. I just have to make it to August 2nd. Yay. Congrats. That's a pretty big accomplishment. Pretty exciting. Yeah. I think that's what everybody says is the second day of graduate school.
00:02:41
Speaker
And then every day after. So I think the audience can tell you're from New Jersey, right? Yes. I have very Northern accent. Yeah. So where are you actually from? Born and raised in Georgia, Jackson, Georgia, Butts County, cracker, Georgia, actually. Yeah. I was born in Jackson, Georgia, and I went to school at UGA.
00:03:09
Speaker
So I didn't move very far. So I got my undergrad in anthropology. After that, I did some field work up in Illinois, actually, then moved over to Augusta to do VCP, which is where I've been for the past about six years. And now I'm moving on into my job with the Savannah Riverside Museum.
00:03:36
Speaker
I was a very confusing timeline with a lot of acronyms in it and nobody is going to understand. Yeah. I got to ask, were you always interested in anthropology or what, what was like your nerd thing growing up if you had anything? So yeah, my nerd thing actually was I did a bit of four H stuff. So I had this one project that was about this, the giant, there's this giant land sloth actually that was
00:04:06
Speaker
found on Skidaway Island on the coast of Georgia. And so I did this little 4-H project about this megafauna, this giant landslide that was excavated in the 1800s on Skidaway Island off the coast of Georgia. And I won first place in fourth grade for this
00:04:25
Speaker
you know,
Switching from Pre-Pharmacy to Anthropology
00:04:26
Speaker
little project I did. And that was like the beginning of my, like, I guess journey into all things, you know, anthropology. And when you're in fourth grade, you don't know that you're like, I guess,
00:04:38
Speaker
starting to go into that pathway. But that's what my first journey into it. Actually, when I went to UGA, I didn't start out as an anthro major, I was pre-pharmacy. And so I took, you know, chemistry and biology and organic chemistry. And that just makes you want, you know, your soul is dying. And it's the worst. And I was in danger of losing a lot of scholarships and stuff. And I was like, I hate this, I don't want to do this.
00:05:06
Speaker
And actually someone walked into, I was taking anthropology, just an anthropology class as an elective, and someone walked in, an anthro professor and was like, who wants to do a field school and go to this island and excavate? And I was like, I want to do that. And so, like, literally walked out of that class, went and changed my major.
00:05:23
Speaker
that day was like applying for field school and then went into class the next day. The very next day my professor was like, yeah, anthropology is probably the worst career you could ever go into. And I was like, oh my god, what have I done? I'm going to be in so much trouble. I'm going to fail in life. But the best decision I've ever made, honestly, I've loved it ever since. I went to field school. It was great.
00:05:52
Speaker
I've had a wonderful journey in anthropology ever
Zark Lab Experience and Archaeological Documentation
00:05:56
Speaker
since. I met great people. I'm so glad that I wouldn't change my major, honestly, because free pharmacy was out for me. Chemistry and all that stuff. I think everybody kind of says they did something else first and then they switch into anthropology because they didn't know it was a thing or some kind of field work opportunity comes up to volunteer. Big only sociopath start off in anthropology. Everyone else kind of switches over because they have a good head on their shoulders. Listen up, Caleb.
00:06:23
Speaker
like at least a quarter of our audience and call them sociopaths. They're probably the same people that dip their finger into jiff peanut butter and then put it back in after they lick it off. So I think we're done disparaging our listeners. You're not sociopaths or finger.
00:06:39
Speaker
people who finger peanut butter jars. I gotta ask, how did your megafauna
Role at Veterans Curation Program
00:06:47
Speaker
sloth presentation go over with? Because I assume the rest of the presentations were about cows, horses, and other things like that.
00:06:57
Speaker
Well, no. So actually the way they do it in 4-H, if I'm remembering all these years ago, is they divide you up into based on whatever your topic is. So it was like, if you did something on poultry or dairy or whatever, you were put in a group with other people, other kids that did their projects on that. And so my friend did some entomology, so she was off doing that. And it was like me and one other kid that did
00:07:24
Speaker
a project on like arrowheads or, you know, and so it was me and this one other person and like, we were the only two kids in there. It was just, so I could have gotten first or second place. I got first place because I'm a winner, but there weren't a lot of us in there because it was just, I guess, I don't know, those weren't topics that kids were new about or were
00:07:51
Speaker
I guess being taught by adults who knew to teach kids about and research, you know? I don't know. And I don't even know how, honestly, not thinking about how I knew to think
Challenges in Archaeological Record Management
00:08:06
Speaker
about a mega, like a giant sloth. I don't know where I even got onto that. Who knows?
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah. I think we usually ask people like, were you a, like a dinosaur kid or a space kid or a cowboy kid? And I don't think we've had a sloth kid. So welcome to that club. Yeah. So yeah, you went to undergrad and then in undergrad you were like, we did your field school first. Right. And then you worked in the Zoark lab. Do you want to talk about that? Field school was my very first anthropology class. Like literally, well, I had my elective.
00:08:44
Speaker
And then field school was my first introduction to archaeology. Like before I even took archaeology 101, like I did field school. But then I got into, you know, all my other classes and so art was just like my jam. And I got offered a place to work in the lab and I.
00:09:02
Speaker
was able to work on a project from a site called Irene and it was a site that was excavated back during the 30s and 40s and 50s
Digital Preservation and Dark Archives
00:09:15
Speaker
but it was a really cool site that has I think a lot of these sites on the southeastern side back in the days when they were being excavated were one people were hand picking a lot of bones out of these sites and so
00:09:32
Speaker
especially on the coast, there weren't a lot of, you wouldn't see things like tiny fish bones and stuff that were kind of slipping through the record. But I did, I think one of the coolest parts of working in the Zark Lab was having to sort of see small fish bones and things, because on the coast, you would see a lot of that kind of stuff. But I guess one of the coolest things about Zark is having to learn all the different types of animal bones and things. There's a lot of memorization with it.
00:10:02
Speaker
There's something about it that my brain just really latches onto and loves. I don't know. David works with me in the lab and anytime a tech opens a box and there's like a lot of animal bones, I kind of like creep over and I'm like, let me see what you have there. It's honestly the most exciting thing that happens in the lab half the time. When a bone comes out, we're always like, Oh.
00:10:25
Speaker
And then we debate for 45 minutes as to if it's bear, human or turtle or whatever. And you're usually correct. And then, yeah, it's pretty, it's usually how it goes. And then Chris puts his input in and it's not correct. And God bless his beautiful soul. And I bet he giggles the entire time. Oh, Chris, he's a good guy.
00:10:51
Speaker
He was funny today. At the end of the day, he's like, I'm going to skedaddle. He was skedaddling about five minutes before he finally walked out of the door. I was like, all right, Chris.
00:11:04
Speaker
He's Jerry Gergich, Parks and Rec. And I love every second of it. He has a little blue lunchbox that like, he'll grab it and leave. And he's like, all right, folks, have a good one. You guys haven't started calling him something different?
00:11:22
Speaker
I can't even think of other like other C word names, not Chris, but like Christophe or something like different variations of it. Nope. Okay. So at the VCP you work with archives. So there's there's a couple places in museums where people work. You work with artifacts, you work with
00:11:47
Speaker
collections and things like that. So could you explain to us what the day-to-day looks like for you and what you're preserving? Yeah so at my job we get artifact collections and then along with the collections we get all the documentation that goes with it. And I know that a lot of people are like really excited about the artifacts and
00:12:11
Speaker
But the artifacts are so important and it's really great that we have those to help us kind of piece together the past. But my job is to organize all the documentation that goes along with it because without the documents, those artifacts are almost useless. So also along with that,
00:12:32
Speaker
It's really important to recognize that those documents can also be just as useless if they aren't well maintained and well organized and preserved. So my job is to make sure that these documents are in some kind of logical order and are accessible to people that need them. And so I really want to be able to sort of create
00:13:03
Speaker
you know, a system for not only like future researchers, but just, you know, people. I want, I wish, I just really wish to create sort of an awareness for even just archaeologists today to sort of, you know, be aware of how you are taking notes in the field and doing your record keeping today for people of the future. Because I don't know, if you're not being aware of how you're taking stuff down and
Understanding the MLIS Degree
00:13:29
Speaker
storing your stuff today and putting them into boxes and stuff,
00:13:33
Speaker
than the people coming after you cannot, like me, who's trying to decipher what you did, it's just impossible to use those to match them up to your artifacts.
00:13:46
Speaker
Beyond just organizing past archaeological researches and notes and documents and things, my job is sort of to teach people today to make sure you're being aware of what you're doing with your archives and your notes right now. So that's kind of what I do. I organize and document and create systems for archives of the past and sort of teach and train people today to be careful of what they're doing.
00:14:16
Speaker
for future researchers.
00:14:19
Speaker
The thing they miss in like archaeology movies is like the amount of paperwork that you fundamentally have to do. There's always some paperwork to be done. It's not all digging and
Balancing Online Education with Work
00:14:30
Speaker
sexy like that. You need like fundamentally to do the actual work and record everything and things like that. Otherwise you're chasing like you're on a wild goose chase later on and Kelly's not happy with you. And it's like sight forms.
00:14:49
Speaker
I know you're good. Um, and I, for people listening, like we're talking like, like test unit forms, survey forms, maps, and then like, uh, what I learned at this job from Kelly is like, there's correspondence. So you have to like actually, you know, document like letters people wrote to each other about monetary stuff. Cause that usually comes up later. And, um,
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, all stuff like that you don't think about. And like, I guess two quick anecdotes before we end the session. One, after I left Wyoming, I texted some people that I worked with in the Guernsey lab and I was like, how's that stuff, lab work coming? And most of the time we try to decipher what you wrote. It's not great. Try to figure out what you meant by this and the numbers are all wrong. And then Carlton, you're currently working like with the end product of this right now, right? With what you're going through.
00:15:38
Speaker
Uh, yes, I'm actually working in collections and archives related to the Jones Miller site. And it is boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes of field notes from the seventies eighties. And when it dabbled again in the two
Volunteer Work with SAA's Archives Committee
00:15:53
Speaker
thousands and it is a, it's a living hell. I hate every moment of it. Isn't that fun? It's really encouraging. Yep. Yeah. On, on that note, we were going to end this first segment. Here it comes.
00:16:07
Speaker
I don't have anything funny to say, so this is just episode 67, segment one. We're going to go into segment two with Kelly Brown. We're going to close the box on this one, and welcome back to episode 67. We are here with Kelly Brown. Kelly, what's it like working with David nine to five Monday through Friday? Because me and Connor, we only really interact with him in a virtual space.
00:16:31
Speaker
primarily so we can ignore him as he can ignore us as needed. But like you, you have to be there. So how, what's the experience like working with David? Truly, it is like a second job. I have a second planner for David that I keep on my desk.
00:16:54
Speaker
And I pencil in. Do you actually? No, I don't want to take this. I wouldn't put it past you. But I do get little reminders for you sometimes that I'm like, better go tell them because I know who will forget. Yeah.
00:17:12
Speaker
I do too. I have a whole section in my notes app that says remind David of this. And it's just a list that goes back like a year and a half now of just a list of just random stuff.
00:17:25
Speaker
mid mid paragraph. We're talking
Advice for Aspiring Archivists
00:17:28
Speaker
to me about life problems yesterday. Kelly goes, wait, do you have therapy today or do you not? And I was like, I don't know. And it like came up onto her phone, not mine somehow. And she was like, make sure you go to the doctor. Well, and it's, oh, hey, drink water. It's therapy. T H R E P Q I. You have your therapy today.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah. It's fun. Beautiful combination of your mental health and your illiteracy. Quarantine was really hard because they had to like watch me on Google docs, try to just do the regular part of my job. And then they would just do it for me because I can't take this. Yeah. Um, so.
00:18:18
Speaker
I didn't know this till I worked with you. Were you in school with me? I first started working there. Did you start later? I think I, when did you start at the VC? When did you start 20 too long ago? Uh, 2018. I think I might've just started. Yeah. March. I think I started with January. Well, whatever. It's been two and a half years. Okay.
00:18:42
Speaker
That, that checks out. So I didn't know what MLIS was and you were like all about it and I was like, good for you. And I had no idea. Can you explain to the audience who also has no idea what that is? Yeah. So a master's in library and information science, uh, is what MLIS stands for. So it basically is, uh, can prepare.
00:19:08
Speaker
anyone for a job in a library, if that's what you want to go into. You can do a traditional library approach where you work in a public library. You can go into working in an academic library in a college, or you can go into working in a library in a school. Or a lot of MLIS programs offer a more non-traditional pathway
00:19:36
Speaker
So it's more focused on information science. That's kind of the approach that I took because I wanted to
Working with Diverse Collections
00:19:42
Speaker
focus more on archives that can kind of prepare anyone for working more and, you know, an archival institution or.
00:19:51
Speaker
maybe an information science focus could be more fitting for a business or a different kind of corporate industry. But it's really a degree that's kind of it's pretty flexible. I've seen lots of different job postings that have requirements for MLIS. So I think it pairs really well with the degrees in anthropology or even archaeology. I've seen I was really surprised when I got into the program how many other students were
00:20:21
Speaker
had degrees in anthropology i went into my like orientation and sat down and i was and we were doing you know like the intros like meet your like little cohort or whatever and i looked over the person next to me and was like i have a bachelor's in anthropology and she was like oh i have a phd in anthropology and i was like
00:20:40
Speaker
Oh, cool. We have a lot in common, I guess. There's a lot of people who have that kind of background going into library science.
00:20:53
Speaker
I can see the PTSD in Carlton's eyes right now. I've been contemplating getting a master's in Indian law to supplement my career possibilities. With MILS, does that involve any sort of database management as well when it comes to these information systems? Or is it strictly cataloging and archiving and the Dewey Decimal System?
00:21:19
Speaker
No, there's a lot of database. Actually, I just I took a whole course on on database management and we worked with access to the database. But I think, yeah, there's information science is a pretty big like
Resources for MLIS and Archives
00:21:33
Speaker
field, but database management is, you know, it's a pretty big part of information science and there are some pretty big. You guys don't use access for your job, right? Oh, yeah, that's I've worked with access all six years in there.
00:21:50
Speaker
Let me tell you, we worked with Access 2010 until this year. Oh, God, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I thought EMU was frustrating, but I couldn't imagine doing, like, old school access. It's only if you're Australian that EMUs are frustrating. But it is like, at its core, Access is like the more accessible platform, I guess we could argue. Well, I missed a joke there.
Episode Conclusion with Humor
00:22:20
Speaker
No, I think they made a pun about emus and I just went over my head. I said their emu is only frustrating if you're Australian. There's a call back to the great emu war that we had to explain to an Australian what that was about part of their own history.
00:22:39
Speaker
Oh, right. Um, yeah. Oh, that was a ostrich. Sorry. Maddie's episode. Okay. Yeah. So you're in the class about, uh, you were using access there and we use access at work. I think this is probably all we can really say on that, but database management is a huge part of information science because there's a whole section of preservation that's like turning digital. And so.
00:23:09
Speaker
Building, building different types of databases that can handle all this digital preservation has become a huge challenge in the field. And so finding a way to code these things and support. I think these preservation challenges is going to become, you know, weird. Any people who could do that. So.
00:23:32
Speaker
Absolutely. I think you would be great at the SHPO for Oklahoma that doesn't have any sort of digital records for any of their file search, any sort of stuff. So they have nothing. They don't even have digital copies of their site forms or any of their site data. So it's a backwards place. It's an awful place. Oklahoma's an awful place.
00:23:58
Speaker
It just stands for a life and ruin podcast. But it's super important because it's like you're saying, these systems are being created and used in in Chippos and at least in like Wyoming, they have the Chippos connected to the curation and everything like that. It's all kind of intertwined. And it takes it takes people who know about those systems to manage them.
00:24:20
Speaker
like you and other people who are getting these degrees. And it's super important and it makes our lives as like contractors super easy. If those things are all intertwined and easy to access and things like that. I've also thought in terms of when I kind of want your thoughts on this Kelly, cause with the amount of digital space that is now required to perform archives management, collections management, even archeology, is there kind of a worry that there's going to be a huge issue? Cause a lot of digital products today have planned obsolescence.
00:24:51
Speaker
involved just in terms of their production. So is there going to be like a point in your professional opinion where it's going to be highly problematic to continue to store all this information into the digital space? Well, I don't think so. I think that digital space, there's going to be more digital space.
00:25:18
Speaker
I do think the issue is gonna be that we're creating so many different types of digital data that it's gonna be hard to figure out how to keep updating them, to keep them relevant, keep them from becoming obsolete and keep them up to date and working and accessible. It's not gonna be the space that the issue is gonna be keeping all that data usable
00:25:47
Speaker
Like who's going to, because this is what happened is like when you create, when you have like a physical piece of that piece, like a document and then you digitize it. Now you've created another digital thing that has to be preserved and you have to have someone who knows how to like keep updating that. And as like, you know, technology keeps evolving and updating, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so like, that's what's going to become the issue. I think not like that we're running out of space.
00:26:17
Speaker
Like in the cloud or whatever I think space is going to keep becoming available. It's just going to be everyone's creating different types of data and stuff that's unique and weird and different and then figuring out how to create a standardized like.
00:26:33
Speaker
type of data that can easily be transferred over the years as technology evolves. Does that make sense? I don't know about it. A PDF might become obsolete at some point, and then you have to update that to the newest form of technology, which is a huge undertaking to keep up with that. What is it? Some sort of Flash player just died? Adobe Flash? Yeah, exactly. Adobe was like,
00:27:02
Speaker
You can't use this anymore because we're not existing. Uninstall us on your computer. Did everyone get that message on their computer? Because I got that message. Yeah. The module was just dying in some places and being created in other places. That's why we use Access at our lab because it's a Microsoft product. I think Microsoft has been a pretty stable thing.
00:27:32
Speaker
It keeps working for a lot of years and you can upgrade. Like if you could bet on something, like Microsoft will probably be around, you know, that's a fair bet to say. Like, so you guys were saying before, like, I guess Carlton was saying planned obsolescence, but like it just dawned on me when you guys are talking. So in the sense that like you and I look at.
00:27:55
Speaker
old yellow paper site reports or like stuck notes that are written down. And we have to scan those in and turn them into PDFs. In like 50 years, people doing our job are going to have to look at PDFs and be like, oh God, I got to deal with this thing. And I didn't think about that until right now. Yeah.
00:28:14
Speaker
Well, not to mention like dad, like these files degrade over time. Like I know there was a big, I was talking to a colleague who works in archives in the Southwest and they ran into a huge issue where the government was like, all right, once you turn everything digitally, get rid of the original copies. And they're like, we have these 18th and 19th century maps
00:28:34
Speaker
and other historic documents, do you really want us to just burn these? And the government just kind of looked at them and just like, man. And it's been like a six month process of trying to not destroy some of those products. But at the same time, it's like, okay, if we digitize everything, if that file degrades, you lose that forever.
00:28:58
Speaker
Well, and so that's been the like, that's, everyone's like, well, just digitize everything and you can get rid of a lot of the physical stuff. But then there's like also the risk of one, yeah, the digital files could degrade and you, you lose your digital file and then, oh no, you've gotten rid of your physical file. And then there's also like the weird like chance of like.
00:29:17
Speaker
if a virus or something just got in and completely destroyed a whole database where you've stored all these things, then you're like, and you've gotten rid of all your fiscal files and you're just, what do you do? And these are the new kind of challenges that we're facing in the digital age.
00:29:36
Speaker
Periodists think that someone can hit delete on one folder and then possibly ruin a lot of history and all that stuff could be permanently gone because we've gotten rid of the physical copies or someone just got a wild hair and was like, I'm going to delete this whole database and everything will be fine. It's frightening to think about.
00:30:00
Speaker
Well, and so there's like, I did a project in graduate school on this thing called, there are things called like dark archives and they're like the dark web. Well, not quite, but it is, it's so, it's so it's like a dark archive is like, it's basically an archive that
00:30:24
Speaker
I just picture an anonymous is like, Hey guys, uh, just hang on. It takes the mask off and you're like, we actually need an archivist. Has anyone, you know, we gotta hold these files. Well, it says this archive is like, it's like an archive that's inaccessible to the public. That's like, like super secure and like, you know, hidden away. And it's like where all these, it's like,
00:30:47
Speaker
There's several pieces of the dark archives around secure places in different parts of the world where you can store very important things. That way, if something does happen to one piece of the dark archive, it's been backed up at the other archive.
00:31:08
Speaker
that way it's super secure and the public cannot access it, no one can access it, and it keeps everything super backed up. And so that's just like a super secure. Who's in charge of this dark archive of this?
00:31:23
Speaker
goes in different continents. So there's these black sites of data repositories that are off the books that just have all this, what information's on there? What are they hiding? I don't think it's the dark archive. I think there are such things as dark archives that like function like that. The dark archive.
00:31:48
Speaker
Just name like pizza gate and like just other crazy, crazy files segueing from like, did you, one, I was going to ask you what made you want to take MLIS and in your graduate program, did you take defense against the dark archives? Oh, I'm brewing. So, um, wait, did you just say you're a Slytherin though?
00:32:17
Speaker
This interview's over. Ravenclaw for life. Just dead silence. Ravenclaw. I'm a Ravenclaw. I'm a Ravenclaw. Are y'all all pre-Ravenclaws? Yeah, it's because of the ginger beard. Gryffindor, get out of here. Gryffindor. The beard, of course he's a Gryffindor. He's a frickin' Weasley. This is an unbalanced podcast.
00:32:40
Speaker
And we'll be right back with episode 67 with Kelly Brown. We are back with, I forgot already. Uh, we're back with the episode that is currently playing on your iPod. So iPhone 67. Thank you. You don't even do this podcast. Uh, so that is a thing that I said, I forgot where I was at already.
00:33:06
Speaker
Right. We're talking about MLIS. What got you? This is every day. Hang on. Let me compose myself. Chris, you don't even have to cut this out. The audience needs to know this is the real me. Hang on. Okay. So 67. Welcome back to episode 67 of the Life in Ruins podcast. We're here with Kelly Brown, M.A., as of next week. No. M.S. MLIS.
00:33:33
Speaker
Oh, all right. You know what, Connie, would you like to start and keep all that, Chris? Because they need to know. My name is Kelly Brown and I'm back on the Life in Ruins podcast, episode 67.
00:33:52
Speaker
Okay. Hi Kelly. I think last segment we ended with like what got you into that degree or I wanted to ask that question. So like, could you tell us what got you into that? I'm assuming it's our job. Yeah, you're right. So working with archeological archives every day.
00:34:11
Speaker
This has probably been the worst intro to a segment we've ever had. And this is not Kelly's fault. This is a train wreck. Kelly introduced herself in her own episode. They need to know, though, that this is what happens. So continue introducing yourself and go from there.
00:34:35
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, so I'm going to get my MLIS in a couple of weeks. And I got interested in this job. Yeah, working with archaeological archives every day. I didn't even know that really those were very important, honestly, until I started working with them. I didn't know an MLIS was a thing either until I, you know, started looking into, you know, how could what other how could you work with
00:35:05
Speaker
archives and what sort of education options were there for that kind of thing. And then that's how I honestly discovered the Masters in Library and Information Science. When I started looking into programs, I found most of them were actually offered online. I chose to go to the University of South Carolina.
00:35:29
Speaker
because it is kind of, it's close to Augusta, which is where I am living now. Most of the library and information science programs are traditionally, I think, offered online anyway, which I know most programs with the pandemic going on are kind of offered remotely now. So the pandemic actually didn't really affect me that much because my program was mostly online anyway.
00:35:53
Speaker
But I worked full time, got my master's degree, and had to figure out how to balance that all at the same time. And it's doable.
00:36:07
Speaker
It's not fun, but it's doable. I dealt with David the whole time too and still have managed to do this. If I can do it, anyone out there can do it. That's a third job. It's a certificate. It's a certificate in David's studies.
00:36:28
Speaker
I was about to ask like is that is that difficult not me like the managing me but is it difficult to do but I guess you answered it like it to do school online and work full-time but like is it different because it's online like if you had gone into like a physical school would you find that harder or easier honestly I wish I had been able to go to class I mean I don't think that I mean I think going to there's
00:36:54
Speaker
It's hard to replace that in-person class kind of connection with your peers and your professors and stuff. But honestly, I think that there is a way to force those connections online. The professors have gotten very creative with how they do classwork and teamwork now. I had a lot of
00:37:18
Speaker
group projects, which I was really surprised about in all of my classes. I also had to do a lot of interviews with like professionals and stuff for a lot of my classes where I had to like zoom or call or meet with other professionals out in the field and interview them about certain aspects of their job.
00:37:39
Speaker
for one class I had to go and tour an archive and I was able to actually schedule a tour with the Coca-Cola archives because they're based in Atlanta, Georgia. So that was really cool. It was, you know, it's not open to the public so I got to do sort of a behind the scenes tour of what they have in their archives. But yeah, I really wish I'd been able to do an in-person master's but
00:38:05
Speaker
You know, when you're working and you don't have that option, you do what you have to do. And I think there's always been sort of a stigma behind getting a master's degree online, but they're just as good and it's just as difficult. And you get just as good of an education, I believe, to an online master's degrees. That's my two cents.
00:38:31
Speaker
Were other students working with, or at least interested in physical archives, or is it mostly folks who are interested in already digital sort of data? Or were you kind of the one that's like, I like old show notes, or I like old archeology notes, you know?
00:38:50
Speaker
Yeah, was it a variety? Yeah, you get a variety. And a lot of the classes are tailored towards libraries and stuff. So you get a lot of students who are definitely like, I'm going to be a school librarian. And you're like, cool. So.
00:39:05
Speaker
Sorry. I mean, that's cool because you're like, that's not what I'm interested in, but good for you. And I mean, definitely in some of the courses, I definitely had to twist, like, tailor the assignments towards what I was interested in and like, you know, be like, I'm going to make this so that it's more archival versus like library. But I, you could do it. And the professors always were very willing to like work with you and make it so that it was,
00:39:35
Speaker
you know, going to be more relevant towards your professional, you know, interest. But the courses definitely were, you know, you could choose if you wanted to do more archival courses or if you wanted to do more like librarian courses. And yeah, there are definitely students who are way more interested in like the data oriented stuff and then some who are way more interested in like preservation and, you know, like me like archaeological and
00:40:02
Speaker
you know, that kind of thing. I would say I did not go to, I did not get my master's with the intention of being an archaeological archivist. I definitely want to expand my
00:40:19
Speaker
my field of interest. I think I've got, I've kind of specialized until now in archaeological archives, but I would like to take that base and sort of expand it out into different areas of the field of archives. You know, there's all sorts of things you can do. You can work in the old. You started working for the like SAA archives committee, right? Yeah. You're doing something that's not, yeah. I'm a volunteer for the SAA
00:40:50
Speaker
our newly formed archives committee, though it's never existed before, but we're trying to create some sort of standardized collection policy for the organization itself in the manner of just documenting the way the Society for American Archaeology functions. So for years,
00:41:16
Speaker
we've been just sort of sending stuff over to the national, the NAA, the National Anthropological Archives. For years, the NAA has just been sending stuff over there, and it's just a ton of just random stuff that people have been like, this might be useful to the history of the organization and how it was formed. And so until now, it's just been boxes sitting over there, and it's just not been organized or processed, and it's just been sent randomly at random times.
00:41:46
Speaker
And so someone was like, maybe we should form an archives committee and try to standardize exactly what we're sending over there and organize it in some kind of fashion. Because we're paying for the space over there. And it's just building up. So we're trying to create some kind of standardized way to just save that stuff and organize it. But we just started. It's kind of a big undertaking because
00:42:15
Speaker
It's a lot of random stuff. It's interesting. It's like a backlog of things too.
00:42:21
Speaker
Yeah. If audience members listening right now are like, do I want my PhD? Do I want to go into CRM? Do I want to, you know, go into finance back to pharmacy? Like what would you say to them about like archives? Like where could they get into that? And like, I guess like, can you do that at CRM firms? Is that like, would you just have to go to school or like, do you see what I'm asking? Cause I don't.
00:42:52
Speaker
Let me phrase this correctly. What's not logical, but real world applications of going into this field right now with the knowledge they have, archeologically? So, archeologically, if they have some archeological
00:43:16
Speaker
education already. Can you give us your elevator pitch of why you should become an archivist? That's it. Where you can apply that. Yes. I think the field of archives is definitely one that we need people who
00:43:38
Speaker
you know, it's a field that's not gonna go away. We have a lot of history and things that are already on the shelf that could be brought into light. And especially now we have all these really cool social media avenues. And I think that it'd be cool to create, you know, different ways to bring, a lot of things are sort of in a backlog now at a lot of different institutions, like even just corporate archives or different small local archives
00:44:08
Speaker
or maybe a public library or just a local university. Someone who is just interested in looking at these archives and helping these things on the shelf come into light and reach the public. I think someone who has the creative vision to sort of
00:44:31
Speaker
organize and bring them back to focus, you know? So just money is hard to get to, storage is hard. We need to make the public and stakeholders care about these collections again. So I think that's kind of like what an archivist does these days. And if you're interested in organizing and that's your jam, then maybe an MLAS would be what you should look into.
00:45:00
Speaker
I've never heard of that, of that degree. And as you were kind of talking, like for a lot of indigenous communities that work in like small tribal museums or cultural centers, like archivists are extraordinarily important because there are so many things from like the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries that were by early anthropologists that went out and collected. Cause I thought, you know, Indians were going to die out that are now just sitting in like Smithsonian storage, like old photographs, those like wax seal cylinder,
00:45:28
Speaker
recordings, which I think are dope. I have a huge respect for archivists, especially now at DM&S, working with our archives manager, and how important that is, not only to preserving data, but it's part of that whole process of archaeology that I don't think many archaeologists think about, like post
00:45:52
Speaker
artifact, like cataloging, cleaning them, that it's just part of this world that many archaeologists just don't think about anymore. Because once they're out of the ground, the archaeologist is like, all right, this is it. But there's that whole other, you know, in perpetuity aspect that archivists are completely complicit in and maintaining all this data that a lot of people went out and just collected out of the ground. Oh, gosh, let me get me started on the curation crisis, that whole like, OK,
00:46:22
Speaker
I was just about to say that it like falls into that same category. Yeah. And like, I guess from my experience working at sites, like multiple different sites with multiple different universities and then like different companies, even like, so it just, it's a given that the, you know, file system for those are always going to be different between the different institutions and how they record data.
00:46:46
Speaker
But like even among the people on the crew filling out the sheets, it's like a very different style of filling out the notes. So then like at our job, Kelly, like when we're looking through it, it's like, all right, this is not the same format as that. And like, what does that mean? You know, it's just, there's a lot of stuff that like, if you collected artifacts that like same way you've equitously it'd be great. But like, then also there's so much variation in the document side of it that it's just a mess and someone's got to deal with that. Yeah.
00:47:17
Speaker
I guess I didn't really have a question with that. I was just making an angry statement. So as a final question, where ideally, where would you want to like, what records do you want to work with? What records do I want to work with? Like what kind of archives do you want to work with? If you had like your druthers, like you could choose anywhere. Oh gosh. I don't know. I've never thought about it. I just Hogwarts.
00:47:45
Speaker
No, I don't think I know she's a Slytherin. She doesn't she doesn't care for data. I don't know. I think I think I'm just interested in all sorts of different. I don't think there's a particular collection I want to work with or type of record or anything. I just am so interested in learning about all sorts of different types. I just want to keep learning more and more and more and like just.
00:48:11
Speaker
I think even just the field of archives is evolving so much right now, especially because everything digital is becoming such a big thing too, but it's just going to be, it's just a new frontier with that also. So I'm just really excited to keep learning as much as I can and sort of interacting with as many collections as I can and being as creative as I can to just get other people
00:48:38
Speaker
you know excited about it and to engage with them and and you know just make other people aware and hope that people can
00:48:49
Speaker
be interested, because I get excited about it, but I can see the light die in other people's eyes when I talk about it. It's just like, oh no, no. So I don't know. I just want to come up with a way to transfer my excitement to other people. I'm trying. Absolutely. That's the challenge.
00:49:15
Speaker
Maybe when you start as your directorship, we can get you back on and we can, uh, you know, provide a medium to, to, to get people excited about this. But in the meantime, Kelly, what are a couple of sources that you'd recommend for anyone interested in ILS? MLIS. MLIS. Yeah.
00:49:38
Speaker
Just for, I think, MLIS, honestly, just doing, I don't have any particular sources, but I will give some advice for just, I think, you know, doing a good Google search for MLIS degrees and we'll pull up lots of good programs.
00:49:57
Speaker
They want you to find them, so it will pop up with lots of information. That's how I got started with that kind of search. As far as just lots of sources for different types of archives and archaeology, I did want to mention TDAR, which we didn't really touch on, but the Digital Archaeological Record.
00:50:26
Speaker
has been sort of a project that I think is very interesting. It's sort of a digital repository for digital records of archaeological investigations. And it's dedicated to sort of ensuring long-term preservation of archaeological data. But I feel like it's a good project, but it's a little frustrating because it feels a little incomplete. There's not a lot of
00:50:54
Speaker
you'll click on something and it'll be like, this report has been cited. And there's not an actual like report there for you to look at, which is, you know, but I think if you're interested in, in digital, you know, archiving or, and archeology, it's a cool site to look at and to, you know, read the history on. So I would recommend that as a source to sort of look at. Yeah.
00:51:20
Speaker
I'd also say the Society of American Archivists is a great site and also just organization to look at if you're interested in archiving at all. They have lots and lots of great sources for archives. I go there all the time for information. Also, the Northeast Document Conservation Center. I use that a lot for when I'm working with different documents that need to be, they have conservation issues. So if they're ripped or torn or dirty,
00:51:50
Speaker
which I sometimes have to deal with when I have dirty documents in the lab. I go to that website. They have lots of great guides for screening and mending. Those are my fun ones. Those are my ones I use most. Okay. Well, I didn't forget it this time. Excellent. And where can our listeners find your work on social media or your job on social media?
00:52:15
Speaker
I'm on LinkedIn with this character. That's a first. First you're like, my LinkedIn is Kelly. Okay. Well, all right. LinkedIn Kelly Brown sounds good. You can find that description. What about social media? Are you on social media? Yeah. You want people to find me? I'm not public on there.
00:52:38
Speaker
Sounds good. We totally understand that. I would say at veterans curation program on Facebook and Instagram promoting that. Is that okay? I guess. Uh, I think so. I mean, that's on my resume. So I guess our resumes veterans curation. Is our resume public on here? It's on your LinkedIn. I mean, I got to kind of
00:53:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, we'll get canceled or we don't get canceled. It's Schrodinger's Cancel. Schrodinger's Cancel, oh my God. Carlton, you're on deck. Well, yeah, thank you so much, Kelly, for joining us today. So we always ask, because our show is called Life in Ruins, we always ask this question. So if you had the chance, would you still choose to live in life in ruins, but it would have to be
00:53:30
Speaker
Does it say where you were? I don't know.
00:53:41
Speaker
properly documented and as it free paper. Yes, I would. I suppose. I'm just kidding. Yes, I would.
00:53:54
Speaker
Excellent. Well, we just interviewed Kelly Brown. You could find her on LinkedIn. Just count her down. Yay. And you could find VCP on Facebook and Instagram. All that stuff is in the links below. And if you guys could please be sure to rate and review the podcast to provide us with feedback on whichever podcasting platform you're used to listening to on our show. That was not right.
00:54:20
Speaker
where you listen to our show. Just review the podcast, guys, every week. Say this every week. Review the damn podcast. Just one star. Just say David needs to leave. Carlton needs to cut his hair. Connor needs to be happier. Just, you know, give us something. Thank you. And the hair's getting long. It's almost as long as long. And you can't review us on Spotify.
00:54:45
Speaker
or rate us on Spotify, just on iTunes. So please do that. Oh, really? OK. Awesome. All right, everyone. Well, this has been Episode 67, Life of Roo's podcast. We'll see you next week.
00:55:04
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. Ladies and gents, I've compiled my dad joke insults and archived them.
00:55:25
Speaker
I call it the dad-a-base. Jesus Christ. That's really good. I'm really impressed. I like that, Connor. It's like when they're good, it's like I have to shrug the most because it's a fell for it. That was good. The database. I love that. Yeah. It's so relevant. Like, oh, dude, props to you, Connor. Did you make it up? No, that's Google. All right. And we are out.
00:56:01
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV Traveling America, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.