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#2 | How This Developer Got 25K Wishlists on His First Indie Game
46 Plays28 days ago
In this episode game developer Zach Northrop talks about his first commercial indie game Worming From Home and how it went from a joke to 25K wishlists on Steam.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome to the Game Dev one on one podcast. I am your host Glenn and today i am joined by Zach Northrop. Zach, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. Super excited to chat.
00:00:12
Speaker
Yeah, me too.
Zach's Journey into Game Development
00:00:13
Speaker
um So what I'd like to do today is um sketch out your whole journey as a game developer and highlight some of the moments that taught you the most.
00:00:23
Speaker
ah Perhaps we can also talk about some of the struggles you faced and how you dealt with them.
Current Project: Worming From Home
00:00:29
Speaker
um You're also at a very interesting point in your career where you're working on a game called Worming From Home that's getting a lot of attention right now and it might become your first big hit as an independent developer.
00:00:43
Speaker
um And as I understand it, um you haven't even been doing game dev for that long professionally, right? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I graduated college um about two years ago now. So, only a couple of years. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, before we get into all that, um I want to take it back to the beginning and talk about what you were like as a kid and see if there were perhaps like early signs that you were on your way to becoming a game developer.
00:01:15
Speaker
Is that okay? Yeah, for sure. All right. um So yeah, before anyone knew you as a game developer, what were you like as a kid? Yeah, I mean, i think i was I was definitely trying to be the the funny kid growing up. That was a lot of my personality was um was my sense of humor. And then i would also just say i was kind of all over the place. you know I think i I was the type of kid that every week I had a different thing that I was really into or obsessed with. and um
00:01:47
Speaker
And yeah, that was that was just kind of a a big part of my personality was just different things every day. Yeah. Okay. And like, what were one of those things that you were especially obsessed with? Like, can you give me maybe an example? I mean, I think when I was, when I was really young, it was all of the, the kind of classic things, you know, I had my, like, Oh, I wanted to be an astronaut for a week. Oh, wanted to go, you know, do, do all of these, all of these crazy things. Um, and then I think in, in high school, it settled into a couple of bigger things. I had, to
00:02:18
Speaker
I had like a really long neuroscience phase where that was what I was really into and I wanted to go into neuroscience. um So, you know, things like that, that were just like all over the board, I would just see some video or or read some book about, about something. And I would be like, Oh yeah, this is, this is my personality. to help Were, were games a huge part of your childhood or that did that come later?
Influence of Childhood and Family
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, i mean I never thought that they were... like Like, I never felt like that was a huge part of my personality, but I think looking back, it absolutely was that like all of my free time, I was that like, that was just my entertainment was either playing games or watching YouTubers play games and stuff. um You know, I played a bunch of games with my brother growing up, and you know, a lot of Little Big Planet and Skate and like all of all of those types of games. um So yeah, that was that was definitely a big part of growing up. But again, it wasn't ever um was never a huge personality thing for me, I think.
00:03:23
Speaker
Okay, okay. And would you say, like you were you more artistic or like technical, maybe even musical? um like What was specifically enticing to you?
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I mean, practically speaking, definitely musical. That was um that was my way in. I grew up playing playing drums. and um And then in high school, I started writing some music. And that was kind of how I got into games, was um just doing some music and some some sound for some friends. but um But I do think beyond that, I...
00:04:01
Speaker
thought of myself as as more generally artistic like i kind of I valued art a lot and like like one of the things with the little neuroscience phase and stuff I was really interested in like what art does with the brain and so there were kind of signs early that I think it was always kind of coming back towards something artistic yeah right right and like were people around you maybe encouraging that like maybe your parents Yeah, for sure. I mean, my parents, my parents were super supportive of all of this. um And that is, you know, with all of the obsessions and stuff, I give them total credit. They did a really good job just kind of following me on some of those and, you know, supporting me
Game Development Education and Early Projects
00:04:45
Speaker
with it. But yeah.
00:04:47
Speaker
But yeah, i mean, they they really supported me with the music, especially. um My dad um you know works in the music industry. And um so he was a really big, like, you know, taking my brother and I to concerts growing up and getting us excited about music and about art. And and I think my parents, um they were really open about...
00:05:11
Speaker
kind of different career paths and stuff i didn't have any um you know i didn't have any of the like oh you need to go be a lawyer you need to go be a doctor or whatever like I would kind of come to them and be like, oh, this is this is what I'm going to do. And they were like, yeah, cool. Sounds good. You should try to get better at that. But um yeah, so so they were definitely supportive. And then I think, you know, different different friends at different times. I think in terms of games, like I spent a lot of time growing up playing games with friends and like, you know, playing...
00:05:45
Speaker
you know, whatever you do as a kid, call it duty with your, with your friends, split screen and, um, all of that kind of stuff. So I definitely, yeah, I, had a lot of support with a lot of those things. Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
Okay, cool. So, uh, let's maybe transition now into like your first steps into making games and how did you first get interested into actually developing games instead of just playing them? Hmm. Yeah, it, it,
00:06:13
Speaker
It was kind of two things happening right around the same time. i think it was like my sophomore year of high school when I was like, well, I would have been like 15. One of the things was I, um a friend recommended me play The Beginner's Guide. um I'm not sure you're familiar, but yeah, yeah that game, I mean, it kind of kind of blew my mind a little bit just about like, you know, i had all of these things about like, oh, you know, I care about art and emotion and kind of all of those types of things. And separately really like to play games and I think that's fun.
00:06:51
Speaker
um And then playing that game was really, i think just opened my eyes to like, oh, games are an artistic medium and like you can get that same yeah kind of artistic expression out of that. um So that was, that was one thing that I think kind of started opening me up to that idea. And then The other thing was I just had a friend in my um like you know sophomore math class um named Gage, who, um crazy side note, now works at Riot on Valorant, which is pretty unbelievable. Okay. But, ah yeah, he um we would just sit in the back of of math class and and talk about talk about games and and what it's like and stuff. And he was a programmer, um so it was like kind of starting to mess around with Unity and and do that kind of stuff. um And he was the one who was like, oh, you know, we should we should do a game jam. We should try it. You know, you can you can do the music. I'll program it, like all of that kind of stuff. Yeah.
00:07:55
Speaker
And then, yeah, that was that was kind of how we how we got going. Okay, okay. And then after high school, did you then actually start, um did you go to college and study game design? Or did you go to a different path initially? Yeah, so um for college, I did end up going to USC to study game design specifically, um which was...
00:08:20
Speaker
Definitely surprising. I applied to a bunch of schools for um for neuroscience and other things. And I was also very, you know, obviously into music at the time and stuff. So i was exploring that path. And I just applied to USC because I thought that I thought the application was fun. And, you know, they're asking all these questions about games. and i was like, Oh, this is fun to write about.
00:08:44
Speaker
Um, and then, yeah, I, I got in, which was, which was super cool. And, um, yeah, so I, I went to school for it and, um, studied that was, um, yeah, I graduated in 2024. Right. Right. And like, what was your time in college? Like, um, cause I imagine like you, you,
00:09:06
Speaker
you know, learn a lot, I imagine, about game design, developing games. Was there a specific um part of game development that you really got into during college?
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think um I definitely came in as like ah a music audio person. I think that was definitely, definitely the niche coming in. um But over time, I mean, everybody who goes through that program has to take a bunch of, um you know, a bunch of design classes and general things. Like the first thing you do is make a bunch of board games. So yeah,
00:09:44
Speaker
so Yeah, I mean, i was I was pretty immediately opened up to more general game design. i started enjoying programming pretty quickly after I got there as well. So um I think, yeah, it it ended up being much more broadening for me than it was like specializing into anything specific, which I think with the the kind of dev I'm doing now was was really helpful. Yeah.
00:10:10
Speaker
Yeah. Do you maybe remember like your first attempt at making a game or maybe a game that the first game you actually ever finished? Yeah. the So in in high school with with that friend of mine, we um we found another friend who was going to some art and we did a um was a dream hack game jam i think it was all online and stuff um okay and uh the theme was apocalypse and we made a game called shoppocalypse um where yeah you are going into a uh grocery store in a zombie apocalypse and have to have to grab a bunch of items and you know kill a bunch of zombies and it's like this top-down game and it was it was super wacky just didn't like i i'm surprised because it runs and you can play it like that's that was the shocking thing but yeah i imagine like doing one of those game jams that is that taught you a lot as well like making a game from start to finish um yeah like what was that like that process for you yeah yeah i mean it was interesting like throughout
00:11:22
Speaker
high school game jams, I really gravitated towards game jams. um I think in large part because, um you know, I would try to do like, oh, I'm going to go do a month long project. I'm going to go do something else. And it would just always lose steam. I would get to the tough part of dev where something's not working. And then I was like, man, I i'm I'm going to school and taking all these classes. Like I don't,
00:11:46
Speaker
I don't have the energy for this. Whereas I think game jams were really nice because it was just so compressed. And and it was it was ah also kind of so much pressure. Like when you have your friends who are like, you know, counting on you to like make yeah music for this thing or like do the thing that you said you're going to do. Like it was a lot easier for me to then...
00:12:07
Speaker
push through the parts that I hated about it and actually get to the end. um But I just, I just love those game jams. I think it was, especially as we did more of them and, and got better at them over time and kind of figured out,
00:12:22
Speaker
the size of thing that we can make in that period of time, it just got more and more fun. You know, I really love them. I so i still love doing them when I can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's what I hear a lot. That game, game jams are very valuable when you're starting out and that even when you're experienced, you should still do them and it's just fun. I hear. So, yeah. Yeah.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it is such a, I mean, yeah, if anybody ever asks how to start out, that's where I'm like, that is the the best way. Because it just it just forces you to like make something. you know right it's It's so easy to try to you know set off and make something yourself and end up with nothing. Yeah. You might end up with garbage out of a game jam, but it will it will exist. And that's the important part. Yeah. yeah And so, okay, you you went to college and then what year did you graduate? ah Yeah, that was 2024.
Internships and Professional Experience
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And because I you have, I think, like you have a website, right? Because I went through it to kind of see like, okay, what you're about and what you've done in the past. And you also did like internships.
00:13:32
Speaker
Maybe it's also interesting to talk about that more and to see what that was like for you. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So um the two main ones, um I had a design internship the summer after my freshman year of college.
00:13:46
Speaker
um When I was like 18, it was pretty wild. It was ah prewaerss with a ah tiny little indie company in l LA called Air Strafe Interactive. um They made a game called... um ah uh oh geez am i really gonna forget it i guess i am it's it's been a while and they've changed wasn it maybe entropy No, that was that was one of the jam ones. Oh, right. Okay. Hold on. Give me two seconds. I can tell you. Sailblazers.
00:14:15
Speaker
Thank you. They changed the name since I was there. Yeah. um And ah yeah, it was just this absolutely wild idea for a game. It was a combination of a million different genres. And that was really great for me because it was just a um I hadn't done much design work before that. Um, and it was just an excuse to like poke around with economy design, character design, progression systems, like level design. I kind of did a little bit of all of it, which was perfect for me at the time. Um, so that was really great. And then, um,
00:14:50
Speaker
Going into my senior year of college, i interned at Epic, um and that was doing some like educational design work on um basically using their tools to make example games um in Fortnite, using Unreal Engine, Unreal Editor, Fortnite, all that stuff.
00:15:10
Speaker
Um, and, um, that was, that, that was just nice to have a little bit of a triple experience and kind of see what that is. Yeah. It's a huge company. you You worked on like the biggest game basically on the planet. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's,
00:15:27
Speaker
quite nice to be able to say it like technically speaking and and i mean you know i was doing work in kind of the the back corner of it but yeah technically so yeah but but that was that was really cool and then um I think the the best part of that, I was able to um come out of that with like a pretty loose, flexible contract to keep doing some of the same design work, um which has been has been really helpful for the past couple of years since.
00:15:59
Speaker
Is that what you did right after college? You were able to go back to Epic and do contract work? Yeah. Yeah. That was, it was the biggest thing I was doing between the end of school. And when I started on this project and through, through a lot of this project, I've, I've still been doing it kind of on the side and stuff. um Cause it's, it's very, it's very flexible. And it, you know, it, it fits into my schedule really well. I've been able to kind of do it on weekends, do it on the side and have some extra income, which has just been,
00:16:35
Speaker
such a godend i mean it's it's you know obviously hard to hard to find work like that nowadays so I'm I'm really grateful for it yeah yeah and when you graduated did you have an idea of what you wanted to do at that point like were you thinking I'm gonna become an indie developer I'm gonna try and join triple a development studio i kind of had no idea you know I was um at the time i
00:17:07
Speaker
was I mean, i was I kind of, coming out of school, just wanted to like travel around a little bit and take a second to like let things settle after school. I think things i mean, obviously, in school, doing all of these big projects and having a ton of classes and stuff, I kind of needed a second to...
00:17:28
Speaker
um catch myself and that was you know another nice thing with the um epic contract was that i could kind of do that from wherever so right okay yeah and i was you know i was applying to jobs and um looking into things uh i was kind of just assuming that the path would be like okay i'm just gonna apply to jobs and then at some point hopefully i can get a full-time thing and like that will define the next stage of my life um But yeah, i wasn't, i mean, I absolutely wanted to do indie. I think that's kind of always the dream with games, but it's hard to, it's hard to be like, I'm going to go do that now. You know, that's a hard thing to, to like plan on in any meaningful way, I guess.
00:18:18
Speaker
so i'm curious like how did worming from home begin
Worming From Home: Concept and Development
00:18:22
Speaker
because it does sound like that's kind of what happened like you just you start a project and now you're working on this as an indie developer yeah i mean i think it's it it was definitely kind of happened in in stages i think that it literally started i was um you know, I was in London at the time and with a, with a friend of mine there who i had worked with a bunch in college and, um,
00:18:50
Speaker
talking to him about projects and I realized, you know, I hadn't worked on like my own project really since college. I'd done like a jam here there, but like it had been a little while since I had, um you know, had kind of my own thing to be working on.
00:19:07
Speaker
um And I was just, we were talking about how, um Because I guess for context, we um our senior year, we spent a year doing um like a kind of unofficial thesis about art games and kind of this pretty you know serious, ah you know, we had a lot of philosophical ideas about the things we were making. And it was a lot of, you know, talking through things and writing papers about things and stuff like that. and um Yeah, our conversation then was like,
00:19:42
Speaker
man, i just need to do something fun. I need you to do something stupid. You know, it's been a long time since I've just made something like dumb for, for, for the hell of it. Um, so I, I just tried to come up with the stupidest idea I could.
00:19:55
Speaker
And I had thought worms were funny in the past and I was like, all right, a worm. And what's the worm doing? He's working a job. Sure.
00:20:06
Speaker
And I was like, that's actually kind of funny. Yeah. Okay. So the worm came first and that's how everything else, like that's how all the other elements joined the project.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, i I would say, I mean, it was, It was definitely just kind of the combo of the two of just like, you know, get a worm, put them in a, in a situation. But, but yeah, I mean, I had, I had thought worms were interesting and funny before I made like an animation halfway through college, just with a worm doing, doing stuff.
00:20:42
Speaker
So they're the, the ideas were simmering, i guess, in retrospect. Yeah. Cause that's interesting. Cause did it then kind of start more as a joke or was the, were you in the beginning, beginning like this is going to be like my first big indie game that I'm going to develop or you didn't have any plans to work on it maybe for long?
00:21:05
Speaker
No, I mean, yeah, starting off how I described it to people was like, I needed a palate cleanser project that was just like, I need to go off. I was planning on, a month, maybe two months, I would maybe put it on Steam or itch or maybe I wouldn't, maybe i wouldn't finish it. We'll see. I just needed something that was like, I'm going to mess around with this and, um, and see. And then, you know, here I am ah year and a half after that, you know? Cause when did you start working on it? Was it like soon after college or...
00:21:41
Speaker
ah It would have been about six months after college that yeah I like started. So yeah, that would that was like November of 2024. Right around then was when I kind of first had the idea.
00:21:53
Speaker
Right, right. Okay. So how did you go then from like this silly idea? I'm probably just going to work on it for a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months to where you are now. Yeah.
00:22:08
Speaker
Almost two years later. Yeah, I think it was um it it was definitely gradual of just like, oh, slowly kind of extending out what it's going to be that, you know, again, at first it was, A, I'm spending spending a month or two on this. And then, you know, I made a little prototype, showed it to some friends and people thought it was really funny, you know, talking to people about the idea people kept having ideas and adding on to it and all of that kind of
Game Design: Humor and Mechanics
00:22:39
Speaker
stuff. and And got quickly realized I was like, oh this is, this is way easier to make than anything I've ever made before. Like it, i guess not easy in like, ah Oh, it's just so simple or whatever, but it was just like more natural. I wasn't having to like fight for ideas and having to like, you know,
00:23:02
Speaker
go around in circles like I think I did on so many projects. It just kind of felt like, yeah oh people people are interested in this. I kind of know what's funny about it and I can keep doing that. um And then, yeah, so it was just like, okay, some people play it. Now I have some more ideas. Now I'm like, oh, I think it's i think it might take you know five or six months to finish it instead of two. Maybe I am actually going to plan on putting it on Steam, all of this stuff. And then um you know, I get another prototype done and I'm like, oh, I think i think the ideal version of this game is actually a bit bigger and a bit broader. And then I just kind of keep keep doing this. Yeah, okay. So it was like a very gradual thing. there Was there maybe like a specific moment that you remember where you thought, okay, now it's really worth pursuing maybe ah a certain mechanic that you added or a certain idea that came to you that kind of
00:23:59
Speaker
made it of a well-rounded game, not just like a gimmick, not just a joke game? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the biggest things, like kind of one of the biggest moments that took it from like, oh, this is the joke to like, oh, this is kind of actually a a real project, like a real game that I'm making was... um ah So yeah, I guess for for context again, before before it was what it is now, it was going to be a series of like designed levels that would just be like you have tasks, you have a pretty linear order of tasks that you have to complete. You know, you have to open this app, send this message to your boss.
00:24:43
Speaker
make a cup of coffee, do whatever. And it was supposed to be like pretty this and this and this. And then after a while, a friend, ah you know, a friend tried it and was like, this would be really, would work a lot better if it was like kind of a sandbox simulation, you're earning money, all of this kind of stuff.
00:25:03
Speaker
And I was like, I guess, but that's going to take so long. And then i spent like another month just kind of like working on things. And it was just so clear that it was like, oh, this...
00:25:15
Speaker
this, this should be a more open game. You know, it, it's, you're doing the finance thing. It makes so much sense for it to like have an economy and, and kind of lean into the capitalist thing and like the tasks and kind of opening up the system. So I think that transition definitely took it from like, Oh, this is my small little project that I'm to finish to like,
00:25:38
Speaker
oh i can kind of see how this would function as like ah a bigger fuller game yeah yeah and like once once a starter feel more real like you said like a real project what were the most like important creative principles then guiding you as you developed it if i mean i i think one of the things One of the things that was definitely there from the start that, um well, i yeah, I guess, first of all, when you say creative principles, is it more on the like kind of design pillars? Like what are the things yeah in the design or just like, how am I making it?
00:26:20
Speaker
You know know, like, yeah, design pillars and design foundations and like the sort of boundaries that you were maybe setting up, like this is what it can be. This is what it shouldn't be. Yeah.
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, then I think, I think, yeah, one of the things that was there from the start that just got way more formal, I think when I started taking it more seriously was that like the core of the game is taking the worm and putting the worm in a mundane situation, like goofy thing next to boring thing. And like, that is kind of where all of the humor in the game comes from. It's just like putting those things next to one another.
00:26:59
Speaker
um So think, yeah, that that very quickly became a big part of how I was designing things was um when in doubt, I'm just trying to make a normal working from home office simulator.
00:27:12
Speaker
um And then it's funny because there's a worm doing it. And so like that was that was one of the early things. um And I think that has...
00:27:24
Speaker
kept things pretty, um pretty constrained in a good way. That's helped us say no to a lot of things that I think would have been like wacky and goofy, but like wouldn't have fit the actual kind of comedic tone of it, I guess.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah And like it is, would you describe it as a comedy game or? Yeah, I would.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yeah. Cause yeah. My question then, because comedy in games is it's very difficult to sustain. um One of the the best examples that I can come up with is like the Stanley Parable. Like that is very much like a comedy game. And it's always, you know, trying to find ways to make the player laugh basically by by the narration.
00:28:12
Speaker
um So how did you approach this problem of sustaining the comedy? Yeah, I think... We were kind of approaching it from both sides that I think one, one way that we were approaching it was just knowing that like, this can't be a long game. Like we're not going to make 10 hours of comedy gameplay. Like that's just not on the table. Um,
00:28:38
Speaker
the like the worst thing we could do is overstay our welcome with this. um Which I think is is still a little bit of a concern that that is something we're dialing It's like, okay, how long can we actually meaningfully sustain the comedy in the context of something that's actually interesting for people to play? um So I think i think the limiting limiting the upper end is definitely a big part of it. And then i think, yeah, the the other side of it is trying to make sure that there's...
00:29:08
Speaker
some actual real game systems that are there. um so that when we don't have a joke lined up or something like people are, are bridged pretty naturally to like, Oh, there's actual actions that you're taking and you have actual goals that you're trying to complete. And, um, you know, like a lot of the comedy is, is situational around like, Oh, it's funny that a worm is doing this, but then there's a lot of the game that is like,
00:29:38
Speaker
okay, you know, you get used to the fact that you're a worm doing these things and like, now it's a game and you do the things, you know, you actually like go and complete the quests and, and have your, have your objectives and all of that kind of, that kind of stuff. And, um and then, i mean, with a comedy game, there will always be some amount of just like,
00:30:00
Speaker
we just need to put content in. We just need to put a bunch of funny things in the game, you know, that give people, um, but give it that identity throughout, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:11
Speaker
Uh, before we move on, I think it's interesting to ask, um, you're working on the game, but you also say that we, you're, we are working on the game. Who is, who we who is your team? Who is, uh, who's helping you make the game?
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah, so right now it is just me and my best friend, Mason, who's also working on the game. um It's just two of us. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So there's two on the team. Mm-hmm. Okay.
00:30:39
Speaker
um Yeah, going back to the the comedy aspect of it, um because you talked about, yeah, now we have to fill the game with like funny ideas or mechanics, make it into a real game. Were there any ideas that were like tempting to add, but would have maybe diluted the premise of the game or what the game actually is? Hmm.
00:31:00
Speaker
i For sure. I think it's it's one of the... I mean, it's it's it's one of the the kind of double-edged sword things with the game that um I think in talking to people about it, it's very natural for people to be like coming up with a lot of their own ideas and like adding things, um which is really fun and one of the reasons I really like making it, but also just makes it like there's a lot of things for us to be...
00:31:27
Speaker
for us to be sorting through. um I think, I think one thing that i try to avoid as much as possible that, um, that we've had a lot of ideas on is like lore and establishing a lot of these kinds of fundamental questions about the game of, you know, cause people are, people are always like, how did the worm get here? How did the worm get this job? Why is the worm in a human bedroom? Like all of those things. And, um and, you know, it's, it's very tempting to,
00:31:59
Speaker
to establish some kind of like, oh, you know, there's some hints to like, oh, there used to be a human here, but now they're not like blah, blah, blah, all of this kind of stuff. um But I think we yeah we we figured out very early that part of the fun of making this is just not answering any of those questions. You know, I'm just being like, like, that's that's part of the absurdity of it that we find so fun is just like,
00:32:24
Speaker
I don't know how the worm, like, yeah. I mean, the worm got this job somehow, you know, the worm, like, you know, there's, I don't know if that that we have this joke in the game anywhere right now. I think I might've cut it cause it made some of the dialogue too long, but you know, we had jokes about how the worm like has an MBA and the worm, you know, just like,
00:32:45
Speaker
Like little, little tweaks about like, right. Yeah. Just the absurdity of it. So I, that, yeah, that is, that is one thing broadly that we're like, we don't want to, we we don't want to answer any of this. People can come up with their own ideas, but yeah.
00:33:00
Speaker
Yeah. Cause one question that I have, like, does, does do the worms colleagues know that he's a worm? Like, are there any zoo meetings where, uh, Like the worm doesn't have his camera on. Yeah, I mean, so we actually went back and forth on this. um Because for a while, the whole goal of the game was like, don't get find like don't get found out. right. And then...
00:33:25
Speaker
And then I just thought it was really funny if everybody does know and they're just nonchalant about it. um and So we did that. No, exactly. Yeah. It's just like, and yeah. and And nobody, just nobody says anything, um which I do think was funny, but it was a lot harder. Like everybody, everybody just assumes that it is like you're secretly a worm. So that was one that we just kind of were like,
00:33:50
Speaker
I think it's i think it's it's a much much clearer premise and it's it's much more straightforward to to bring to people if it is like nobody knows. um But the the way we've done that comedically, the way we've tried to approach it is the whole like,
00:34:07
Speaker
Like the funny part of that is like, how is it possible that nobody knows? Like the end of the game is going to be a, um as you mentioned, a Zoom call.
00:34:18
Speaker
It's going to be like ah a one-on-one video call with your boss to like get, ah it's like a promotion interview. Oh, cool. And, you know, it's it's just like, you're so obviously a worm. Like you're a worm, like pulling framed photos of like a stock image of a guy in front of a webcam and using like a, you know, Microsoft Sam soundboard to like say things and stuff. So it's like, it's like so obvious, but you know, the joke is that, you know, then your boss is just like, oh, wow, very, very interesting. You're so, you're so like well-versed in these finance things. Yes.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah, the the thing about like jokes in general is that they could be funny in the beginning, but then after a while, it kind of stops being funny. And then you start to wonder, well, is the joke actually funny?
00:35:11
Speaker
Were there any moments during development where you had a joke that... but then you figured like, oh, maybe it's not good in the long run.
00:35:22
Speaker
And not because you mentioned like you cut some some dialogue, but were there any bigger things like mechanics or other things that took more time that you felt like, okay, we have to cut this because it's actually not that funny?
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i'm i'm I'm trying to think of specific examples. I mean, for the most part, I would say we've been really... deliberate with adding things in slowly so that we haven't had to do too much cutting which has been been really nice um because yeah i've i've worked on a lot of games where we spend you know four months on something and then it's like oh it's just not good we didn't test it you know so we've done a lot more like okay we're gonna make a make a super easy to make version of this and, and check it and test it with people see how it does. But um yeah, I mean, i think, i don't know. I don't think i have any, I mean, the dialogue has been a big thing. I mean, I know it's not like an entire mechanic, but there's a lot of things that I'm like,
00:36:32
Speaker
write a bunch of stuff that I think is really funny. And then I watch players skip through it entirely because it's way too long. And I'm like, okay, got it. Yeah. ah Before you started showing the game maybe to more and more people like doing beta testing, um were you ever worried that people might just see it as a gimmick?
00:36:54
Speaker
Yeah.
Feedback and Iterative Development
00:36:55
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there's a part of you that's still worried about that. I think, you know, it's, um, I, I, I think over time I've learned to not shy away from that too much and just kind of be clear about the goals that we have for the project on our own side, because we've definitely gotten a lot of criticism. That's like,
00:37:19
Speaker
oh, this is just a stupid idea. This isn't going to be fun to play like all of those things. Um, and I'm like, I, I understand looking at the game and, and that being the conclusion that you come to.
00:37:30
Speaker
Um, I think most of the people who say things like that are not our target audience also. So I'm kind of keeping that in mind, which is like our target audience tends to be people who see an idea like this and they're like, sure, that sounds fun. I don't know.
00:37:46
Speaker
Um, ah are, you know, a lot more open to it. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, we're aware of it, but we're just trying to try to back it up as much as we can. yeah Like that was, that's, that's one of the pieces of feedback that I like hearing the most is people being like, Oh, I, you know, I, I wanted to try this cause it just seems funny, but it's like actually fun to play. Like I actually, like there's an actual game here.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. yeah and a lot of what makes the game immediately appealing, at least to me, seems to be like how you control the worm.
00:38:26
Speaker
um like What was important to you about how the worm actually feels to control? it it was definitely a definitely a long process to even figure that out. Yeah, I think...
00:38:43
Speaker
it it We knew it needed to be a balance between um like awkward. it It has to be awkward to kind of fit into this this visually weird, funny, like you're you really have to figure out how it works and stuff. But I think...
00:39:02
Speaker
we also you know or early on i just decided that i didn't want to make it into like a rage game i didn't want to make it like like yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah uh that was that was there was definitely a direction that i could have gone with it where it is just like this is impossible to control but i think i just wanted to make it so that like It's impossible to control at the very start. And then after a sec, you like kind of get used to it and it actually becomes like a functional character controller. And then we can actually extend the comedy out to be more than just like, look at this jiggly worm in a game. That's funny. Like now we actually, the worm can do things in the world and like we can have interesting interactions and have funny moments that come more from the premise than just like, oh, funny, funny worm controller.
00:40:00
Speaker
Okay. And did it take a while also with like testing to get the movement just right and it not feeling like you said, like maybe too awkward. um Did that take that, that took a while, I assume to figure out. Yeah.
00:40:14
Speaker
Yeah, ah absolutely. i mean, there were, there were a number of things with it that were like, I just, like I i was trying to find references for how to, make something like this and it was hard to find, you know, it's like, there's not many controllers that work like this, like character controllers. And, um,
00:40:35
Speaker
So yeah, it took a long time. I think one of the toughest things was figuring out how a worm is supposed to press a button on a keyboard. That was like, i I was literally like making diagrams and trying to figure out like, oh, how do you do this thing? And um all of this stuff around.
00:40:54
Speaker
Yeah, it just took a while to figure out like, oh, we can actually get the worm to like like the worm is holding up its head all the time and then it could point its head downwards and press downwards.
00:41:06
Speaker
um And then, I mean, another another massive thing with it is the camera, that that was just like... Yeah, that must have been a nightmare. Kind of a nightmare. of Yeah.
00:41:17
Speaker
It's... it's It's fine. there's i wish I wish it was it was better, and I'm continuing to like mess with it to try to get it to be better, because there are just a lot of limitations with it.
00:41:32
Speaker
um But at a certain point, there is some amount of like, how how else are you going to do this with a worm? you know i'm I'm trying to lean into...
00:41:45
Speaker
um the conventions with a third person controller as much as possible while also knowing that like this is a hard one you know the worm is very low to the ground in all of this and is often trying to look up at things which is hard to get a camera to orbit down into the right spot without clipping into things without it being possible to clip into the worm all of this stuff so that's that's been that's been a struggle yeah yeah And how did you sort of like balance, I guess, the realism of being a worm, having this remote job, but then also adding things like being able to lift weights as a worm? Because that's that's like you have realism, but then the absurdity of, okay, now the worm can lift weights. Yeah, it's it's definitely, I mean, yeah, you know, on the point about like, oh, the funny thing is the worm and then everything else is is mundane.
00:42:44
Speaker
That's not entirely true because we definitely have things like that that do kind of just like come out of nowhere. And I think, i think that's the, that's the general approach is just to try to make sure that those things are ah specific and there's not too many of them and they're not too overwhelming.
00:43:01
Speaker
um Cause I think, I think a lot of it would fall apart if like everything was like that. Like everything was this weird, surprising thing. But I think,
00:43:13
Speaker
we're trying to hit the balance of, you know, you establish a base of, oh, this is, everything is pretty normal and you're a worm and that's the surprising part. And then from there you can say, oh yeah, you buy a weight and now the worm can like lift weights. And it's like a kind of new surprise that I think perfectly.
00:43:33
Speaker
comedically because at that point like you're used to the fact that you're a worm so like we can start kind of reintroducing more surprises like that yeah yeah okay yeah cool so you work across design uh programming and audio um how does thinking about audio affected the way that you um are making worming from home because i feel like you kind of specifically have a passion for audio?
00:44:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of weird on this project. I'll, to be honest, like, I think on previous projects, I am such an audio snob and like have all of these thoughts about how things need to be and all of these like adaptive music systems that I think will make things smoother and all of that. And I feel like I'm kind of sitting on this game a little bit because like, I think I just realized early on, like if I try to make audio a centerpiece for this, like it's probably going to make things worse. Like, right. This is a visual, like it's a very visual game. It's,
00:44:46
Speaker
and And I think especially looking at references and stuff, um audio is audio has a lot of leeway to just be um goofy and it kind of out there and not actually all that realistic and just kind of there to provide feedback when you need feedback, make a joke when you need to make a joke. And yeah,
00:45:13
Speaker
and things like that rather than i think i i normally treat audio as way more of a of like a core aspect of designing the game which yeah i i do believe is generally the right way to do it but like on a game like this it was i i just i just learned to like it's I mean, i I get more compliments on the audio in this game than i did on games where I like worked really, really hard on the audio, which is also a little frustrating. but you know
00:45:46
Speaker
I think it just yeah we just figured out how it's supposed to fit into the the broader context. you know Right, right. Because I was going to ask, like, how do you know when wearing too many hats is helping you versus hurting you? But it seems like you kind of have it figured out with Worming From Home that you already realized if I make audio or try to make that a core thing, it's going to hurt the game and the premise of the game. So it seems like you have it figured out.
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think... ah Yeah, obviously working, you know, doing the whole, you know, working in every single part of the game is the the classic indie thing. And I think, yeah, prior prioritization is a big thing with that. And just saying like, this is the important part. This is less important. Yeah.
00:46:32
Speaker
Okay. um I'd like to talk a bit more with your collaboration with with Mason. Yeah. how How is that going, that that process? How are you dividing the responsibilities?
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's been it's it's been so nice. I mean, i I cannot say enough nice things about him in general. um he's So in terms of ah dividing responsibilities, he's doing all of the art. I'm doing all of the things that are not art for the most part. It's pretty pretty cut and dry with that. I mean, we do...
00:47:09
Speaker
we We are clear about, like, I want him to also be, like, designing things and contributing to the game. And, like, you know, he's not, like, sitting there doing his tasks and then and then going away or whatever. Like, we talk about the game a ton. And he is a very close collaborator on that. But... um In terms of like, you know, delineation of tangible responsibilities, it is very much just like art, not art, which is, which is really nice. We're not ever really stepping on each other's toes, which is great.
00:47:42
Speaker
Okay. and And so he is actually making all the 3D models and then you're the one that's inserting them into the engine environment and then just making everything work.
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah, for the most part. um i mean, he he does implement a lot of his own things, but I'm doing a lot of setting up physics and doing things and and the more mechanical side. Yeah.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yeah. And like when, what was the moment where you saw like, okay, the, this visual direction with Mason's help is really elevating the whole game and making it click.
00:48:18
Speaker
I mean, it was, it was almost immediate. Like, um, and I mean, we, like, he's again, a really close friend of mine. So we'd been talking about the project for a while before he formally started working on it. So it was really quick once, once he was like, oh yeah, I'd be happy to work on this. Like there wasn't much actual onboarding or anything. Um, and one ah one of the first things he did was, um, you know, he took a screenshot of the game and did a paint over for, um
00:48:49
Speaker
what he thought the style should be. yeah and it was just, I mean, because the style before that point was entirely designed around the limitations that I have as a, as an artist.
00:49:01
Speaker
And it was very much just like, i don't really know how to model things very well. So like, I guess it's going to be a low poly style then like, that's what that means. um And I think, yeah, having, having him on the project just opened it up entirely. It was like, Oh, now we can, now we can actually do.
00:49:22
Speaker
I mean, i think the the more realistic style is, way more common in simulation games and, and, you know, like Go Simulator and, and I read and like all of those kinds of references too. So like, it actually allowed us to situate ourselves in relation to those, which,
00:49:40
Speaker
So nice. I mean, seeing seeing the worm, because one ah you know one of the first actual assets he made was a new version of the worm. And i was I was losing my mind when I saw it because it was just, you know, before it was just like a a pink cylinder, basically, you know? And then he put it in and I was like, oh my God, that's just a worm. That's like an actual worm.
00:50:06
Speaker
So yeah, it it makes the jokes land a lot more, I think, when it's just like, oh my god, yeah, it's just like, yeah, real work. Yeah, I think I definitely agree with a game like this, the more realistic just helps solve this really goofy premise.
00:50:23
Speaker
Exactly. oh So now I'd really like to talk to you about what it was like putting the first demo out on Steam.
Marketing and Launch Strategy
00:50:33
Speaker
Because I'm also wondering, was there any traction before you put out the demo? Like, how how did people notice you first?
00:50:44
Speaker
I mean, honestly, not that much. Um, very, very early on in the game, like before Mason was doing anything, posted like one or two things on Reddit that got some attention. um But it was it was pretty marginal. That was just one one thing of people being like, oh, this is funny. You know, this is interesting. And I was like, oh, cool. You know, that helps me be interested in continuing to make this to know that, like, you know, it might have some have some legs in terms of being able to share But...
00:51:17
Speaker
but um Yeah, I mean, it was really not much until we started putting the demo out there and then things changed very quickly. Yeah.
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah. good how How did you get all that attention? Because I think right now you're sitting at at least 25K wishlist on Steam. Yeah. So how did... Were streamers maybe playing the demo or were news articles being published about the game?
00:51:49
Speaker
it was kind of a bunch of things at the same time because um basically in... in January we were um at that point we were basically sitting on a finished demo that like it was in a really good spot. We had just shown the game at mag fest, which was super helpful to just like, it had been really stress tested. We knew that it worked.
00:52:17
Speaker
And we were ah ah deciding whether we had a, a, non-funded publishing deal on the table at the time um which i had been on and off looking for publishers for kind of the entire production mostly just because i was like i really don't want to market this game i really don't want to you know deal with all of the not game dev things um really okay so you never really planned to try and make it into something bigger than it could be
00:52:54
Speaker
i i i i planned to do it if I had to, i would say, but I didn't want to. And and I think I i didn't think I could as well. Like, I think before launching...
00:53:10
Speaker
the demo and then before things got more public, I really felt like marketing was some like black box, magical ah thing that some people know how to do and other people don't. So like I really wanted, and I mean, also it just takes a lot of time. So I, I want somebody to like,
00:53:30
Speaker
be able to help us with that but um yeah so you know in january we were trying to figure that out and then um we ended up ah saying no and just wanting to kind of stay independent and try to do it ourselves um and then right when we made that call um we announced the game um and then launched the demo a week later, which was okay yeah pretty crazy. we were I mean, the only reason was that um we didn't want to launch a demo during February because of NextFest, um and we just knew that it would be swamped with things. So our solution was to launch the demo on January 30th, which is like, okay. but um
00:54:19
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, to actually answer your question, I mean, the announcement uh was kind of a fake um a fake marketing beat for us we were just like oh we're gonna do like an announcement trailer and try to get it on you know ign's like trailers youtube channel where they just kind of put everything um and we put it on there and it did it did really well which was um which was really fun um that it um kind of blew up. They ended up posting it on the IGN main channel. That kind of started us going. And then at the same time, I sent early access to the demo to like 300 streamers and YouTubers. right So people were starting to play it. We had some pretty big YouTube videos when the demo launched, which was really cool.
00:55:10
Speaker
um And then generally since then, to my to my dismay ah it has been social media it has been so much social media like that's been that's been the um like that you guys have been doing to to to advertise the game you mean for the for the most part yeah i mean i just started being like okay i'm gonna I'm going to, cause I, I just hate social media platforms generally. um but I was like, okay, I'm going to, going to bite the bullet and I'm gonna start like making tech talks about the game or something. Um, and they just were doing really well. Um, and then, yeah, more recently we had, um,
00:55:55
Speaker
A Twitter account called IndieGameJoe posted a video the game, and it did um did really well on Twitter, and that gave us a bunch more wish lists, which, yeah. So kind of all over the place, a number of different things at different times, but yeah.
00:56:14
Speaker
So once the game started getting more and more attention, is that when you change your mind about, okay, we we have to go for it now? Because it sounded like before that, you weren't even really thinking about marketing or how can we sell this game or or make this into something that that can make a profit.
00:56:34
Speaker
um How did that transition happen then exactly? Yeah, I mean, I think we we were definitely... trying to make it a commercial game before then.
00:56:47
Speaker
um Like, I think, I think around when I was bringing Mason onto the project, which was like six months in, that was when I was starting to be like, okay, you know, um um'm I'm going to take this more seriously. I'd seen, you know, I had interest from friends and I'd seen on those Reddit posts or whatever, like, oh, you know, this, this could have legs to to sell something. um I think, I think the transition with,
00:57:11
Speaker
the announcement and the demo and all of that was just like the expectations changed a lot that like, you know, I, I think before that we were very much like, um, Oh, you know, it would be really great if we can just put ourself in a position for this to like make any money, basically, you know, like if this, if this gives us, you know, puts us in a position to like,
00:57:41
Speaker
maybe make another small thing that would be really nice. um Like we were, I mean, before we announced we were targeting 10,000 wishlists by the time we launched the game and that happened pretty quickly, which was really crazy. um But ah yeah, so I think that was the biggest thing was it just went from like,
00:58:04
Speaker
oh, maybe this could be like an indie release under our belt that would be like, you know, now we can point to like, oh, hey, we did a big thing to like, oh, this this could be a pretty big opportunity for us.
00:58:19
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And then so when people started playing it and streamers were were broadcasting it, um Did you, were you watching them closely? And like, if so, did people then respond to the same things that you thought were strongest?
00:58:40
Speaker
um At the start, I definitely was watching them closely. i mean, this is like the first time I've ever seen a streamer play a game I've made, I think. um So like there was partially just the like excitement about that.
00:58:57
Speaker
I think... I don't know that anything at that point was um was super shocking because, like, I mean, we had we had playtested this demo so much. Like, this is this is one of the things that really got, um you know, hammered into our heads at USC is, like, you just, like, you don't know what a game's going to do until you've playtested it, like, a billion times. um So...
00:59:27
Speaker
I felt like i I knew the... I had a pretty tight sense of the range of things that could happen in the demo. um So it it was pretty expected for the most part. I do think... I mean, there's there's always certain things that like... I mean, after...
00:59:47
Speaker
after spending a year working on it, I'm not, you know, just just making it or looking at it, I'm not surprised watching the worm move around. So there's kind of always a moment for me of like when people start the game and they move the worm for the first time that like, they're like, oh wow, that's crazy. And i I'm like, oh yeah, i forgot that that's actually and like something that's not like normal. Yeah.
01:00:14
Speaker
Yeah. I imagine you're getting a lot of feedback now from people that have played the demo. um Are you actively listening to the feedback or are you still just kind of doing your own thing and following your instincts?
01:00:30
Speaker
um I'm definitely listening to the feedback. I mean, to be honest, those two things aren't really in competition right now, which is really nice that for the most part, the feedback that we're getting is you should add more content, which is like what, but like, yeah, you know, we're just making the whole game now. yeah so um so so So that's nice. I think I have had to learn to shut off certain things for sure. you know, I think especially um when the game made its way over to Twitter and I found out why
01:01:11
Speaker
uh, why Twitter is the way that it is in terms of, you know, people are, people are pretty mean over there. So I had to figure out how to be like, Oh, this is the feedback that I'm not going to take actually.
01:01:22
Speaker
um but yeah, I mean, for the most part, it's, um, it's pretty aligned. I think, I mean, to the, to the earlier points on ideas and what's funny and what's not funny, there's a lot of like,
01:01:36
Speaker
you know, listening to ideas and validating ideas as like, oh, I like this, this is funny, but also like I have a i have a six page list of ideas that would probably be funny if we had time to add them, you know? so Yeah.
01:01:53
Speaker
Yeah. So now that the demo is out in the open, um how are you thinking about what still needs to be done for the full release that is coming later this year, or I think?
01:02:05
Speaker
Yep. Planning on Q3, which is yeah coming up. be sooner than you think probably Yeah. No, I sure will. Um, yeah. I mean, specifically on that point, um,
01:02:19
Speaker
That is one thing I'm learning with this project. I'm used to games in the past being like, you figure out when the game is going to release, and then you need to finish the game before the day that it releases, ah which is very different on this one because we're trying to you know, give a version to content creators beforehand. And then we have to do localization before that. We're going to need to test it a lot. and It's a bigger project, all of these things. So, you know, ah four months turns into two months, disappears really quickly. But um yeah, I mean, honestly, right when right when we launched the demo,
01:03:01
Speaker
And it was clear, like, the demo's okay. We don't need to, like, like after I just fixed some bugs and it was in a stable place, um it was kind of like, okay, now we have to go, like, make the entire game. Like, it was a little, um definitely a little scary. i put um I put a lot of, like, kind of stub content in the demo that,
01:03:28
Speaker
implies that we had made all of those things already. Like there's a bunch of stuff in the shop that just says like, Oh, you know, you could buy the, the webcam, but it's, you can't buy it in the demo, which like, yeah yeah you know, we hadn't made that we hadn't made like any of those things. Um, so it was a lot of just like, okay, now we have to like fill in all of the content.
01:03:51
Speaker
Um, which since then we're, we're in a good place. We've, um, we've like hit alpha and started um kind of play testing the full game start to finish with some friends um which is uh certainly weight off of my shoulders i think yeah there's a level of anxiety about like what if this game just does not work for as long as we need it to but we're we're through that and it's it's a lot more um It's lot more filling in gaps now, which ah which is a lot more manageable to to think about.
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So you have a ah pretty good idea now what the game needs to be, or are you maybe still figuring out some of the parts of the game? Or is it just filling in, like adding more content basically?
01:04:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for the most part, it's it's just adding in content. I mean, i think there are still individual pockets of the game that we're kind of figuring out, you know, that I think um we will probably be figuring out until we finish the game. You know, there will there will always be ah pockets and stuff. But I think those, over time, those have gotten ah ah lot more constrained that, like, you know we're not opening up questions about, like,
01:05:10
Speaker
oh how does the time system work in the game like how do you you know what's the core of the economy and things like we're the the questions we're answering are much more like how do we get this one system to interact the way that we want it to like things like that you know yeah yeah and like do you feel more confident now or are you just more aware of what you need to do and is that making you nervous It depends on the day, for sure. i think there's there's so a bit of a back and forth. um
01:05:44
Speaker
Because i'm ah i'm a bit of a I'm a bit of a crazy person with planning. So I've got a spreadsheet with like everything that needs to happen on the game. And with all these time estimates and how long we have and all of this projections and stuff. um And that can look pretty scary sometimes. I'll be honest, you know, there's sometimes it makes me feel better because I feel in control of what's going on. And sometimes I look at it and it's just telling me like, Hey, this is going to be hard to do all of this in time. And I'm like, okay. um
01:06:21
Speaker
So yeah, it definitely depends. I think generally i would say I'm getting more confident over time rather than less just as,
01:06:32
Speaker
as things because I think the thing that scares me the most is the parts of the game that are uncertain because and and that don't feel like we've playtested it, it's validated, i know it's good, like i can trust that this will be okay.
01:06:50
Speaker
you know When you have systems that are like I think this is going to work, but people might play it and it might just not work. And we might just need to like spend a month changing it.
01:07:01
Speaker
Like that's the stuff that, that really scares me. So, um, you know, as we, as we test more and as, again, as those, as those questions get smaller and smaller, i feel more like I can, I can see what we're doing and I feel more confident with it. Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:19
Speaker
Yeah, so just by doing a lot of playtesting, you kind of figure out what needs to be what needs to be left alone and what needs to be refined, basically.
01:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's that's the biggest thing. I mean, i again, have have gotten it hammered into my brain that like, you don't know anything about how a game plays until you watch people play it.
01:07:46
Speaker
And so yeah, i don't I don't trust any of my systems until I see them. And then when I see them working, it's it's great, you know? yeah But yeah, I have to actually play test it to get to that point.
01:08:00
Speaker
Yeah, I do have a like questions about because you said like you you were maybe talking to publishers. um As far as I as you can see on Steam, there's no publisher. Are you still trying to get a publisher for the game or have you made a decision to just make it all by yourself now?
01:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, we've, for the most part, we're in a place where we're just planning on doing it ourselves. um I think especially when we, you know, chose to not go with that specific publisher right before we announced and then the announcement went really well. Like, we're especially in a place right now where we feel like we can do this ourselves. So we're not that interested in giving away the amount of ah you know revenue percentage that publishers tend to ask for. um
01:09:00
Speaker
so But I mean, that being said, as it tends to go with this kind of stuff, you know right when we said, okay, we're not going to have a publisher who was when the game started blowing up, which was when publishers started reaching out to us. sure yeah um so um i've we've been talking to publishers as well. I think i'm I'm open to it to the extent that certain publishers have...
01:09:27
Speaker
the ability to just bring a game to an audience that we just straight up don't have, you know? um yeah There's, there's some amount of that that I could, I could see being relevant, but, um but for the most part, we've just decided, I mean, especially because like we don't,
01:09:48
Speaker
we don't need development funding to finish this game. And I've heard a lot of advice from a lot of indie devs that is along the lines of like, if you don't need money, don't get a publisher.
01:10:00
Speaker
Like it's just not gonna, it's like, if you don't need it, don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause then I'm wondering how are you sustaining
Future Plans and Advice for Developers
01:10:10
Speaker
yourself right now? Are you doing contract work still on the side to, to have an income?
01:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's it's kind of a combination of things. um It's contract work, for one, doing the same stuff with with Epic Games on the side. And then for two, I am living at home with my parents, keeping expenses low. Okay, yeah, that's that that's a good decision. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm lucky enough to have a really good relationship with my parents, so it it works for me. um But...
01:10:45
Speaker
you know, rent in rent in l LA would make this quite a lot harder. So ah I'm very grateful for that. Yeah. Yeah. know I always tell people stay with your parents for as long as you can.
01:10:57
Speaker
When you just, you know, when you just graduated, like don't immediately try to support yourself. Like if you can save up for a couple of years or more, that's very valuable, especially right now, I think. Yeah. I was just going say, especially right now, like it is,
01:11:15
Speaker
It is so night and day of like, if I wasn't able to um to to be here, then this game just couldn't get made. oh Yeah. yeah Yeah. And I am wondering now as well, are you already thinking about what's next after worming from home? Because when you were started talking about it, it's it's like a pellet cleanser for you and you have maybe more...
01:11:43
Speaker
philosophical ideas about games, making games. Um, so yeah. Do you know already what you want to do next? i I have a lot of ideas for sure. i think it'll be, it'll be hard to figure out over time where the, where the artsy philosophical stuff fits in with, um,
01:12:09
Speaker
having to make money on games um you know i think ah practically um mason and i are hoping that this could be a springboard for us to start a you know i mean he's working part-time on the projects right now because he's also getting a master's degree of ah so he's still yeah okay okay yeah which um it is separately unbelievable that he has the yeah time to yeah i mean he's like he's like actively working on his master's thesis while doing all of the art in this game it's unbelievable um but yeah he's uh so so we're talking about um that's the goal for us is for this to put us in a position where we can both be full-time um kind of have our studio that would be both of us 50 50 um
01:13:00
Speaker
we ah We both like directing games as well. Like I'm obviously directing this one. I worked on one of his games in college where he was the director on it. um So we both work really well with each of us. um And we're kind of thinking about just switching off because we both have things we want to make. I think it'll be a good kind of flow back and forth for us. So I think in terms of the immediate future, if if we are in a position where we can keep keep making things like this it's gonna be i'm i'm gonna be you know the design lead on his game which i'm very excited about yeah okay so you might start like a studio together like a like an indie an indie team together that would be that would be great yeah yeah that would that would be the intention would be be very cool and i i will say with that as well we've talked about it a fair bit and
01:13:57
Speaker
it's It's not that different from what we would be doing right now. Like we're not actually intending to like, oh, expand a ton and like hire a bunch or whatever. Like we we like working together. going to keep it, the two of us, as long as we can do that realistically.
01:14:13
Speaker
Look at teams like Team Cherry. I mean, they stay deliberately small because they like working as a small team. So that is always an option, I think. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's it's one of the things I just know about.
01:14:27
Speaker
myself too on, on projects that I've been more specialized. It's hard. Cause I, I'm just antsy and I think I get bored easily. So it's, it's really nice to be able to just like,
01:14:41
Speaker
you know, if I don't want to be programming, I can go do audio. If I don't want to do audio, I can go do design stuff. Like I can just jump around. Yeah. Yeah. now Okay. Okay. Um, yeah. Before we, we start wrapping up the podcast, um, I'd like to ask you some questions that might enlisted like some advice or wisdom for other developers that might be listening right now.
01:15:06
Speaker
um, Because, yeah, I think with this podcast, I just kind of want to, I guess, maybe highlight certain struggles that developers face and how people listening can then learn, okay, how to avoid those pitfalls.
01:15:23
Speaker
um So, yeah, someone that might be listening right now that's very, like, early in their journey. ah What's one lesson you had to learn the hard way that might help them right now?
01:15:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the one of the biggest ones that comes to mind is scoping games and the size of what people are making. that i think it's always an instinct, especially early on, to want to make something really big and to be very ambitious about that. and I think that's that's a really good thing, obviously, but I do think...
01:16:03
Speaker
um every game will take so much longer than you think it will take. um And that is, yeah, certainly learn that the hard way. i mean, that's that's one reason why i think game jams are great is because it forces you to like iterate on your own processes a lot quicker.
01:16:22
Speaker
Whereas, you know, cause you, if you get better every time you finish a game and game jams make it so that you're just finishing games more than if your first game was to be, ah you know,
01:16:36
Speaker
three year long, you know, RPG, whatever. Um, so I think, yeah, starting small and developing the, the bigger magnum opus ideas while just doing small things that are fun and that teach you things. Um, and yeah, I guess one thing I will add on to that as well, um,
01:17:03
Speaker
is to just not be afraid to make dumb things that are fun. Yeah. You know, I think i I spent a lot of time blocking myself out of finishing things because I needed them to be like, so like well thought out and good and cohesive and whatever. And and the the freedom that I'm experiencing by just being like, ah, it's a funny game. It's a funny premise. I'm going to make it and then I'll be done with it. Whatever. um
01:17:34
Speaker
It's, it's a, it's a nice way to make games. yeah Yeah, I think that might be the most interesting part of of the development of Warming from Home is that it it really just started more like as a joke, as a palate cleanser. And you never thought it would get to this point um because I think a lot of developers get stuck in that initial phase of what is the idea?
01:17:57
Speaker
What can we do? um How big can we make it? But you were just like, oh, I'm just going to make something silly and we'll see. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's that's such a big part of it too that I think is another another lesson that took a while to learn was that like, I think it's so easy to look at finished games, like games that you're playing and kind of think through it backwards and be like, oh, I bet the developer just sat down and thought about it and then made the entire game.
01:18:35
Speaker
And it's like, that's not at all how it goes. You know, that it's like, I, this game was so different when it started. And i think the only reason why it's getting made at all for one, but also the only reason why it is the way that it is now is because I spent a lot of time just like making something and then watching people play it and see what was interesting. And then,
01:19:02
Speaker
cut the things that I really liked that I think made the game worse and just like, like, yeah, I think there's, you have to,
01:19:13
Speaker
you have to be less precious about it and actually follow where the game is taking you, which I think is really takes a lot of practice. Yeah. Kill, kill your darlings.
01:19:24
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's, it's the way that you end up with something that you do actually love at the end, you know, cause you could be in love with an idea there. I've had a lot of games where I'm in love with an idea to the point where I won't budge on it. And then it makes it so that I love the actual game less when it's finished because it's not, it doesn't it doesn't work how I think it should in my head, you know?
01:19:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What is a skill that matters more than people realize in terms of, you know, game development?
01:20:06
Speaker
I think, I mean, I think one simple answer with that is the ability to collaborate and work with others. um I do think that is, especially in indie spaces, that can be undersold as like, I think it's easy for people to, you know,
01:20:30
Speaker
look at solo devs and think that there's there's a path where you can lock yourself in your room and never talk to anybody and then come out with the game. And I think it's possible. I mean, i as somebody who I'm good at some things, I'm not good at other things. Like the ability to work with other people has let anything I've ever made have any chance of being decent, you know, because I can let other people do things that they're good at, which, um, which yeah, obviously is, is huge. Um, so, and then at the end of the day too, like,
01:21:10
Speaker
you're in a certain way collaborating with your players and with play testers. And I think that's where a lot of games go wrong. i mean, on on the same point of just being flexible and seeing where a game is leading you, like you are collaborating with your players. You're seeing what they think about it. You're getting their feedback. You're taking their ideas and deciding what to do with them. So I do think at its core, that is a a really important skill to have. Um,
01:21:39
Speaker
I think another just more specific one, i would say this is kind of on the topic of scoping and stuff, but, um building the ability to um anticipate how long things will take is extremely important, I think. um And it takes a lot of time and takes a lot of making games. And I am still very wrong most of the time. um But I think i'm I'm at the point where I can like get in a ballpark, which again, this this game would not be possible if I wasn't able to
01:22:19
Speaker
look some amount into the future and say, I think that we can do this amount of work in this amount of time. So I think, yeah, the ability to like plan things and realistically make estimates is pretty huge.
01:22:35
Speaker
Is there something that you think that people misunderstand most about what it's like becoming a game developer?
01:22:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think one of the things, especially because in, in school, um, a lot of people were very, um, very indie and very like, at least a lot of the people I was, uh, I was friends with had a lot of artistic ideas about games. And, um, and I think that is really good and really important.
01:23:11
Speaker
Um, and I think, i think I think it's easy for a lot of people to think that um but there's no overlap between making a commercial game and making like a good, expressive, artistic game.
01:23:27
Speaker
um like i think there's a lot of... you know You look around online at people talking about indie games, and there's a lot of people saying... oh, you know, I don't want to just make whatever trend is going on right now or whatever, um which I totally respect. and And to be clear, like, I'm not saying anybody should go make any specific type of game. I think it can just be relevant to explore, like, for Mason and I, we've talked about this a lot, that, like, the Venn diagram between, like, you know, games that have potential to actually sell copies and, like, games that we're interested in making,
01:24:05
Speaker
Like there's a lot of overlap there, you know? And I think when we're trying to make this into something sustainable, like I don't, I i personally just don't see the whole, like we're we're aware of how the games we're making are going to do commercially. Like that's not the kind of like selling out that I think it's often talked about as because I'm like,
01:24:32
Speaker
I'm also making game that I really want to make, you know, I'm just, yeah I'm just picking, there's a lot of different, different games that I want to make that.
Conclusion and Future Discussions
01:24:39
Speaker
Yeah. That's just to say, I think, um I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of room for those things to, to overlap.
01:24:47
Speaker
guess that's, yeah Well, Zach, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and talking about, well, yeah, basically your whole journey as a game developer and talking about Worming From Home.
01:24:59
Speaker
I'm very excited for the full release. Thank you. Me too. Yeah. yes um I'm hoping we can maybe do this again someday. Maybe once Worming From Home has already been released. I'd love to talk to you about that and what that process was like for you. um Yeah, absolutely. I can come back and... and change all of my advice based on what actually happened.
01:25:22
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, no, that sounds great, man. Awesome. Okay. um Yeah. Thank you everyone for listening and I'll see you in the next one. Goodbye.