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Episode 1: The Good Enough Career
80 Plays15 days ago
In the first Episode of Off the Path, Sam and Steve talk about what makes a good enough career. How much do you really need to be satisfied? What makes something good enough? We like to call this the "wire monkey mother" episode because what makes a good enough mother is inspiration for what makes a good enough research career.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Off the Path' and Maximizer vs. Satisficer
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to Off the Path, a show where we talk about research careers, especially our own. I'm Sam Ladner. And I'm Steve Portigal. Sam and I have been having a bunch of conversations about research careers, and with Off the Path, we're going to share those conversations with you.
00:00:31
Speaker
Let's talk a little bit about career, but specifically about being a maximizer or a satisficer. So I'll put it to you first.
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah. Are you a maximizer or are you a satisficer in general? Yeah, I think I'm a satisficer, but I'm going to do what I often do when we start any conversation is unpack the terms. What do those things mean? Of course you will. And are they are they opposite to each other?
00:00:58
Speaker
can we talk about what those things mean? and then Of course we can. And in fact, I think I would be disappointed if you didn't do exactly that. So please unpack this for me. The backstage piece is that we we talked about talking about this and we use the phrase good enough.
00:01:14
Speaker
kind of examining good
Exploring 'Good Enough' in Psychology and Career
00:01:15
Speaker
enough. And then it's gotten slightly more formal as it's been brought to our prompt as we've prepared for today and satisficer and maximizer are the terms.
00:01:26
Speaker
So I can kind of wrangle good enough. We'll go back to good enough then. What is good enough? Good enough is such an interesting term because there is sort of a resignation to it. Like, oh, that's good enough. And so you have phrases like good enough for government work, that idea that you don't really care.
00:01:40
Speaker
But then you have perfection is the enemy of good that you write. So we have all this sort of lingo around. Whether good enough is a good thing or a bad thing. What I think of when I think about good enough is the good enough mother.
00:01:54
Speaker
Do you know this phrase? No. It comes from the psychology literature on attachment. And it turns out you don't need a perfect mother. You need a good enough mother. ah Do you remember those horrible videos with the monkey monkeys? you're going to get to the monkeys, the terrycloth monkeys. Yeah.
00:02:09
Speaker
Yes, and the wire monkey mother. and I got to say, I missed that day in class. I think it was like during a Jewish holiday. And they talked about it for the whole year. It's one of those weird memory things where I'm sure that I've seen it.
00:02:23
Speaker
But maybe you haven't. picture it. But i actually, i actually haven't. But now it's just sort of apocryphal. Well, for the listeners who don't know, go ahead and look it up. Harlow is a psychologist and he did some research on attachment with monkeys and he gave them mothers that were live monkeys. And then he gave them mothers that were laundry detergent jugs wrapped in carpeting and then just the jug and then just the wire monkey, not even a jug of a mother. They're horrible. Anyway, you need a good enough mother.
00:02:53
Speaker
So a wire monkey mother is not good enough, but you can get a good enough mother with successive additions of care and feeding and whatever. Can I digress from your digression? Of course.
00:03:04
Speaker
So this was in a high school class called Social Problems of the 20th Century. Mm-hmm. And they taught us about the inadequate mothering of the wire monkeys. And, you know, you want to think about pedagogical movements.
00:03:17
Speaker
The thing they wanted us to get out of this class, they basically had a mantra that was something like, and I can't recite it anymore, but it was inadequate mothering leads to something.
00:03:29
Speaker
Because they those monkeys that didn't get hugged or didn't get ah comfortable surfaces were like, what, more anxious or more violent, like bad things happened. Bad things happened. That's right. And they did bad things. And so
Defining Career Satisfaction and Key Elements
00:03:41
Speaker
there was this like almost like a paragraph long sentence that was trying to basically explain what was wrong with our world, social problems of the 20th century.
00:03:51
Speaker
And inadequate mothering leads to this, which leads to this, which leads to that. It was some kind of phrase like that. And they had us recite it in class in unison.
00:04:01
Speaker
It seems like something from like Bart Simpson's class on the Simpsons. That is insane. And you know what we all sound like in high school when we're saying something together. It loses any actual meaning.
00:04:12
Speaker
Inadequate mothering leads to love but bla blah, blah, blah, blah. And and i even then I remember like, this is weird. Like this isn't a way to convey an idea, let alone kind of get people on board. that is It was one of those classes that the gym teacher taught the class, right? It was like in the history. It was like, that yeah, the health class, but social problems.
00:04:32
Speaker
They weren't maybe super committing to this as as an educational class. That is a super weird memory you just unlocked. Inadequate mothering leads to blah, blah. blah Yeah. So whenever I think about the monkeys, I think about how that information was given to me. Maybe that's why I remember it, even though I haven't seen it. It's rather it it dilutes the whole idea.
00:04:52
Speaker
funny you had the negative version of it, the inadequate. I took away the good enough part.
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00:04:58
Speaker
So good enough to me isn't about the lack or like how it's not perfect.
00:05:04
Speaker
You only have to get good enough. That's what I took away from it. So what was the difference between the the baby monkeys that had living mothers versus the ones that had? it was exactly as you said, the ones that had the covered and soft you know laundry detergent jug. They were anxious and not very well socialized, but they would go to cling to the quote unquote mother if they were confronted with other monkeys. and They got really scared. They didn't understand social cues.
00:05:33
Speaker
It just got... Far worse with the wire monkeys. Like these these monkeys could not be around other monkeys. And they were either terrified or violent or both.
00:05:44
Speaker
They just had no attachment whatsoever. They were completely screwed up. So good enough mothering didn't come from the laundry jug. That wasn't, in some people's opinions and mine included, good enough.
00:05:56
Speaker
You know, you had to have a little bit more. But it was like the literature on motherhood, you know, was like, you don't have to be perfect moms. Like, you just have to be good enough. That was what it was other researchers that were talking about that. okay So when I think about good enough, whether satisficing, I think about there's some key things that you really need.
00:06:15
Speaker
And those are important. And you can't scrimp on those things. And the other things, don't sweat it. That's kind of what I take away from good enough. And if we operate with a good enough model, do we know what those things are?
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, exactly. do we know what those things are? So let's say for the sake of argument, you know, to be good enough in your career, you know, you have the wrong key things. You think, oh, I have to have these are the key things I have to have.
00:06:41
Speaker
I have to have PMs listening to everything I say or whatever. I'm just making this up. Well, what if that's wrong? It is wrong, by the way. I don't think that's good enough. I don't think that's key for having a good career as a
Managers and Career Planning: Roles and Challenges
00:06:54
Speaker
researcher.
00:06:55
Speaker
Knowing what's on that list of the things is probably the most important thing. If you're satisficer, you better know what's must-haves. think ah like many things we talk about, it comes with experience. What are the red flags? What are the things we say? Whoa, whoa, that's not good enough. and Right.
00:07:10
Speaker
Let me stop that. And I don't think I'm that consistent with those things. And I think they change over time because, I don't know, norms and standards shift. Anything come to mind that might have changed for you? Like things that weren't red flags before, but are now?
00:07:26
Speaker
I mean, we're talking about career. I guess I'm thinking about it in terms of research project. what's What's a project you would stay away from or one that you would see as a success? That's different than kind career. Yeah, that's true. But let's start there. You're thinking now about like what makes a good project. Is there an example you can think of where things have shifted, norms have shifted?
00:07:49
Speaker
There's a different red flag than there used to be or one emerged that you didn't know was there. And it turns out that was really important. I was trying to write a bargain basement quote for somebody today. Okay. And thinking about, because that sort of forces you to confront the things of like, well, what totally late what am I willing to not do?
00:08:06
Speaker
and And then that becomes correlated with, well, they're not going to pay me for it. There's a threshold below which you're not going to get any value out of it if you don't do anything. Mm-hmm. So I was thinking about leverage points.
00:08:18
Speaker
and So here's a concrete example. If you're a consultant and you're working with a company and they have a customer list, who's going to reach out to people on the customer list to ask them to participate? Let's assume there's not operations people and templates and a panel.
00:08:33
Speaker
There's just, we have the mechanism to make a query and extract some names. Theoretically. And how are we going to contact them? So when you're writing a bargain basement quote, you're thinking about, well, what are things i can get them to do?
00:08:46
Speaker
The client, I'm the vendor. What are things the client can do that will lower the price? Because why pay me to do this if you can do it? And i came to the conclusion, i mean, it's not a big aha, but I was you know and thinking through this this tension.
00:09:00
Speaker
oh I should handle the outreach because every time somebody else handles the outreach, they screw it up. They, you know, I've had people prematurely reach out to customers, potential research subjects, and ask them for their time and do that without talking to me.
00:09:19
Speaker
And so when they do that, they set expectations. Mm-hmm. It's a small thing. Just let me write the email and send the email and have it come from me. and And then we don't have to do all that. No, no, no. We're not having a focus group. No, we're not showing you our roadmap.
00:09:35
Speaker
You know, whatever ways people misunderstand process poorly articulated
Distinguishing Between a Career and a Job
00:09:39
Speaker
request. I'm sure you've seen your share of requests from product people, corporate people, marketing people that pitch somebody on why you want them to be in the study or what we're going to ask them or how it's going to go.
00:09:51
Speaker
That does not represent the kind of open-ended conversation we need to have in order to meet the brief. So I feel like you have a ah much higher barrier to overcome in the interviews themselves if you don't set them up properly. Needlessly.
00:10:07
Speaker
Needlessly, yes. On the surface, you would think, oh, they can do something and it'll lower the price so they can still get the research from me. So I might as well outsource it to them. That sounds like a good idea. But it sounds like what you're explaining is that seemed like a good idea on certain things. But on this one, I have learned that that is a must have. i need to set the expectations because otherwise...
00:10:31
Speaker
When I get these participants into the actual interview, their expectations are all wrong. spent all this time undoing those false expectations. It seems like it's a good idea to get the right client to do the outreach, but it turns out it is a false economy. Yes. While you were talking, false economy was coming into my head.
00:10:49
Speaker
Because even if they're going to do it and they're they're going to talk about it with you, you have all this negotiation about the outreach language that now you have to explain to somebody the minutiae research and expectation setting that they don't really need to know about.
00:11:03
Speaker
No, they don't. To fight over what's going to go into that email is like, it's just a waste of everybody's time. So maybe I've sort of learned that has become more of ah a baseline or must have for me because I've made that mistake or I've let other people make that mistake. And it's a simple thing. It seems like it's just logistics. It's just, you know, getting people to participate. Well, I mean, and it is, but it also has these kind of like downstream effects, certain types of logistics.
00:11:30
Speaker
Like, are we going to use Outlook? Are we going to use Google Calendar to send out invites? Like, that's logistics. Does that have the same like burden in the interview? No, it doesn't.
00:11:42
Speaker
When did you figure this out, by the way? When did you figure out that this was like, you know what, I should not bargain basement myself on this particular thing? Do you remember? I don't know if there's a moment I feel like I keep relearning things.
00:11:54
Speaker
like or keep me reminding I mean, I brought it up in this conversation because it was something that I was thinking about today. it wasn't a brand new thought today. it was just sort of a re-realization. Because again, I don't have a framework of I must do this. Somebody else must do that. I had to kind of go through a little bit of storytelling and think about each sort of element. And you have some sort of red flag sitting around like, oh, yeah, the That's not going to work. That's not going to work. I think it's about sort of setting expectations about how you're going to set expectations. And I think because the team and the power dynamics and the structure of the team and the roles and responsibility are different every time, if you don't do exactly the same project, the same set of people, somebody else thinks they're going to handle this part.
00:12:37
Speaker
And that's right. know, I can find myself on a project where this piece has already happened. Somebody else has already done the inviting without telling me they were going to do that. And then I just get a bunch of calendar invites. So that happened to me just, you know, a few months ago.
00:12:50
Speaker
Oh, really? And so I didn't understand, yeah, the roles and responsibilities. Oh, geez. um Are we going to talk about RASC-y now? The RASC-y chart or whatever. What is RASC-y? RASC-y and Dacey is how I've heard it.
00:13:05
Speaker
RASC-y. yeah. R-A-C-I?
Balancing Work, Job, and Career for Personal Satisfaction
00:13:07
Speaker
But I don't know the is. does it even stand for? I always have to ask the person I'm talking to to to remind me. It's basically roles and responsibilities. Right. It's responsible, accountable, consulted, informed.
00:13:18
Speaker
Correct. Yes, you did it. I don't know what the D is. Support. I think support is the S part. Okay. Okay. I don't know. i make it Neither of us are certified project managers, obviously. The fact that there's three of them at least we've got in this conversation tells you why we're not certified project managers. Well, when you're thinking about what are the most important things for a research project, of course, roles and responsibilities clarified. Of course, that's important, right? but I don't know, is it? I mean, we can't just like race into things without knowing who's going to do what.
00:13:52
Speaker
But how many projects have you been on where that's exactly what happens? And you can't get alignment around discussing that. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I have a whole section in my course where I talk about the RACI charts. ah So obviously I should know what they stand for. yeah It's in your course. I know, right? I can't remember the acronyms.
00:14:12
Speaker
But I do talk about it. and You know, I talk about it in this way that I think researchers understand. Like, if you're a researcher and you take a class with me, you're probably trying to, like, up-level your research skill. And you probably didn't think you were going to sign up to up-level your project management skills.
00:14:28
Speaker
But it turns out that's what I kind of learned I had to do was up-level my project management skills so I could avoid these problems. Right. There's a reason people are researchers and not project managers.
00:14:38
Speaker
They didn't choose to be project managers. They chose to be researchers. And so they're kind of like, ew, ick, I don't want to talk about project charters and I don't want to talk about Gantt charts and, the you know, all that stuff.
00:14:49
Speaker
Well, it turns out if you do kind of look at these artifacts, As like the social contract, you can control the narrative if you look at them as as that, right? If they are a thing that you can use to improve when you go into that interview, how many times have you been forced to like unwind what somebody told them? You know, well, guess what? You don't have to do that if you do this way. And people like, oh, that's a good point. You know, that's a really it's a good idea.
00:15:15
Speaker
So is it important? Is it one of those key things in a research project to like own kind of the project management? I think it is. And by extension, would say if we can pivot to talk about the career part here, i think it's important to own the project plan of your own career. Like, I don't think a lot of people actually think about it in those terms, you know, because it is icky. It's kind of gross. And I don't like reducing my career to... like a Gantt chart or a bunch of milestones or what have you. I don't like a lot of the project management rhetoric, like where they have retrospectives and the actual versus the observed. And they talk about time is like these changeable cogs that are equal. Four hours on December 31st is not the same as four hours on January 1st. They're not the same, even though they look the same. So that bothers me.
00:16:06
Speaker
I don't like that about project management. I don't like thinking about my career in those ways. But it turns out if you do think about your career in those ways, you can have better outcomes, I think. Maybe not perfect outcomes, but you can have better outcomes.
00:16:19
Speaker
Help me understand what it means to think about a career with a project management lens. Well, OK, so what kind of project management lens, right? Like you can use the PMP project management lens, which is, I think, kind of simplistic and icky and I don't like the sounds of it at all, which is like, OK, I have...
00:16:41
Speaker
time, i have quality, and I have budget and pick two, basically. So if this is your career you're talking about, how lacking in poetry is that? Gross. yeah There's no room for wisdom. There's no room for like personal growth or ethics or any of those things in that kind of lens. However, if you look at that kind of, okay, project management came out of scientific management. You know, which is ah about there is one best way to do everything. And all you need is the smartest person to like decide exactly what procedure to do. And then they tell everybody else that's exactly what you're going to do. You're going to do X and then you're going to do Y and that's it. And I don't want to hear anything else.
00:17:20
Speaker
But if you're taking kind of like a social science look at what that looks like, you're like, oh, well, that's kind of like the going narrative. That's the currency and how people talk about things. It doesn't mean it is the way things are.
00:17:33
Speaker
It doesn't mean you have to buy it wholesale. You can use it when you want to talk to your manager. For example, we all know how, quote unquote, career growth works inside organizations, which is to say that they don't. I find career conversations in like annual reviews and feedback sessions and meetings, one-on-ones managers.
00:17:53
Speaker
I find them horrific. They're awful. Everything has to be documented
Adapting to Career Changes with Flexibility
00:17:57
Speaker
in this way and that way. And, you know, and they're just so lacking in humanity. And I think early on in my career, I just tried to avoid it or try to like hack it in the moment.
00:18:08
Speaker
That doesn't work. It doesn't work at all. You know, you you say to yourself, OK, well, you know, I don't buy into the the way people talk about their careers in this corporate environment. I was just having this conversation this morning over text with a friend of mine who works at a large organization and they're doing all sorts of silly return to office things that seem needless.
00:18:28
Speaker
And he's really mad. Like he's really mad about how they're talking about remote workers not working and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, well, you know, that is kind of how these conversations end up happening.
00:18:42
Speaker
You think you're going to have an honest conversation with your leaders and you think you've got data and you think, you know, they're trying to ah advance your career and whatever. And they don't. And so you're disappointed and you're really mad.
00:18:54
Speaker
I think that's how I kind of approached it early on. And now i kind of approach it as like, this is a psychodrama. We are in a theater right now where a play is being put on. And i can choose to accept the protagonist role as given. Or I can infuse it with something like, I don't know, unexpected, secret, my own.
00:19:13
Speaker
i think the the key that we're talking about here is people have a way of talking about career that may not comport with your own way of talking. But that doesn't mean you have to buy it in order to make it work for you. You don't have to accept it wholesale. You've mentioned at various times that you have played the other role where people have come to you and you've talked to them about their careers, not as their manager, not not having that meeting, but you've provided a space to have a different conversation than maybe the one that they're set up to have in that kind of structure. What's different in how you, when you're in that seat, when you're not the person whose career is in question, how are you handling that different than how you've seen managers handle it when it is your career?
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question because you have an advantage in that role. For lack of a better term, I would call it research auntie. Because like at the end of the day, I'm the auntie. I don't have to change the diapers, right? I don't have to do all the stuff. I don't have to pay for the college fund or whatever.
00:20:10
Speaker
So in those conversations, people, when they were like, I'm having trouble breaking through x or whatever, I can be really honest. And I can also help them see the corporate game that is playing is something that they can take themselves out of and look at critically and say, OK, well, this is the game.
00:20:29
Speaker
This is the game your manager is playing. These are the words that they're using. These are the OKRs they're talking about. And you have a choice. You can completely exempt yourself from the game.
00:20:40
Speaker
That comes with a cost, of course. You can play the game, but you have to know what parts of the game are negotiable and what parts are not negotiable. And once you figure that out, well, then let's talk about how you can like screw with the game.
00:20:53
Speaker
Right. And the manager, even the most honest and on your side manager can't really do that. That goes against yeah what they're accountable for. Absolutely. And i think that's really heartbreaking, honestly, because, i mean, I have a lot of friends that I've been talking to recently. They're research leaders with teams inside large organizations. You are, as a research leader, as any leader, you are required to do some pretty shitty things.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, you want to do the nice thing, but you can't because you're going to be managed out if you don't do it. So I think it's pretty tough for a lot of people to come to the recognition that this person that they think of as like their mentor is not acting in their best interests.
00:21:37
Speaker
Not because they're a bad person, not because they're a sellout or this or that or whatever. It's because they're totally human and they're engaging in this game and they find themselves caught up in it and they don't know how to play it in a way that they can be okay with.
00:21:53
Speaker
I think that's
Finding Fulfillment Beyond Traditional Work Structures
00:21:54
Speaker
really heartbreaking for a lot of people to realize that like this person, i want them to be like my research mommy or whatever, and they're not doing it. They can't do it for me. you know, just in hearing you talk, it makes me think about, I'm sorry if this is trite, but the difference between a career and a job.
00:22:11
Speaker
Okay. How is that? Well, the manager who works at the the same big corporation or and big enough corporation that there's layers of management anyway, the researcher is meeting with their manager to talk about what their goals are and how they can get on the kind of projects where they can learn new skills and Yeah.
00:22:34
Speaker
the job you are and i see level three at you know labacorp in the seattle office but your career is ah at a level above that your career includes becoming a yohini and a death toolulla and independent consultant and a content ah management specialist whatever things are going to happen or becoming a researcher at eight other companies.
00:22:56
Speaker
There's a whole bigger arc above all that that is the career. And I guess the platonic ideal of a manager would be to consider those things and help you change careers and do all that. But OKRs and whatever the cadence of performance reviews are and these kinds of you know conversations is more naturally tied to the researcher's employment at that corporation. Right.
00:23:21
Speaker
their job. And maybe even smaller than that, the actual job title they have on that team with that manager. Because in a big enough company, you could have a different job on a different team in a different office in a different organization and different etc.
00:23:35
Speaker
And that starts to be part of your career. You know, you could work at some of these companies for many years. And there's like there's career at the top and job at the bottom and then sort of the duration of your employment with that company is kind of a middle layer.
00:23:48
Speaker
And each of these, I think your initial sort of point that the ways that we can choose to talk and and think about these things, like we can take ownership of that. Absolutely. That seems to especially apply to the career level at the top when we would not want necessarily, unless it's the best manager in the world, to be thinking about that.
00:24:10
Speaker
If you say like, well, I'm thinking about going back to school or I want to take a career break and travel. Like, I know there are managers that will support that and and use the tools that they have, but that's kind of outside their model.
00:24:21
Speaker
to a certain extent. Absolutely. To get there. and that's sort of that longer term career that it can have many different kinds of arcs. I want to work in media. I want to work in public service. I want to work in tech. I want to work in AI or whatever thing you might want to think about. It's maybe not what your job allows for. And if you're hungry for something else, I want to get into finance. I want to get out of finance. You have to take responsibility for that.
00:24:46
Speaker
The platonic ideal of the manager is that they take responsibility for it, too. But let's face it, that is a really hard thing for an individual manager to to take on.
00:24:58
Speaker
i don't think you need a perfect maximal manager. i think you need a good enough manager. I don't know if this is true, but I'll propose it as a model that the mindset you bring to your career in terms of how much project management do you do, how much do you choose how to think about that larger arc versus
Aligning Work with Personal Fulfillment
00:25:18
Speaker
how you approach your job is different. Mm-hmm.
00:25:22
Speaker
And you might have different languages or different fluencies that you would bring to different things. So, you know, one on one with your manager to talk about next quarter's OKRs and growth opportunities for you is pretty job-y. Job level? Yes. And you would approach that a certain way and you might hold back for yourself. Well, how does this ladder up to my thoughts about my career?
00:25:44
Speaker
But I might not bring my career questions, my career reflections and so on into that session. Again, it depends on the manager, depends on the organization. Yeah, it depends on a lot.
00:25:55
Speaker
Maybe you're at a company where you're like, I want to work here for 20 years. Then, yeah, this job is part of the architecture of your career in a more obvious way. Right. If you're thinking, oh yeah I don't see that I'm going to be able to get everything I want out of this organization, this industry, yeah this role, this this team, even if you don't know where else you want to go. You just know this one's probably not going to give you all the things.
00:26:18
Speaker
I've only really had one job before I started working for myself, but I remember having that realization that my career was going to have to go beyond this. And what was that like, having that realization?
00:26:29
Speaker
Like, this is more jobby than I thought. I thought it was, this was career-y, but it's jobby. It was a big loss of innocence. oh Sort of a coming of age moment because I had a lot of identity tied up in it. And I remember having sort of coaching slash mentor conversations with people saying like, you know, I don't see how I can leave because here's these dynamics, these people that are incredibly inspiring and supportive and have sort of positive plucked me out of obscurity and have sort of sheltered me. And i remember having someone saying to me, like, I was listing people by name as what the good enough mothering was that I was getting.
00:27:05
Speaker
And that person just in a kind way just push that idea. They're like, there's other people besides so and so and so and so. Like I had a very, very small world that I wasn't really prepared to leave. but I couldn't kind of get around leaving. I mean, it took a few more years, but I had this very visceral realization that I had reached the top of what I was going to be able to get. Like, I felt like my metaphor was, oh, my head is hitting the ceiling.
00:27:30
Speaker
In this place. Yeah. That I had more to grow and learn and do. And it was around something very subjective. I consider excellence, like This was an organization that just had a lot of legacy culture and decision problems. And I think like a lot of agencies do as an agency. And so i think I spent years there hoping for just the maximal version of this thing to kind of unveil itself. And then taking some ownership of trying to manage from the bottom. To make that happen. Can we make this happen? And I had this realization that, yeah, it's as best as it's ever going to be.
00:28:06
Speaker
And it's now stopping me. And in fact, they went out of business and I got laid off. So I mean, it. it Oh, well, there you go. And I think I had this realization that i I saw, despite having told my friend slash mentor that like I didn't see any other options for me besides that.
00:28:25
Speaker
I had a realization that I think I just saw maybe the the tiles coming off the wall and I realized like, oh, yeah, this is we're never going to get better than this. And I can champion that, but I can't succeed in that here. So there's got to be something else for me. I'm i'm limited here. And that realization came just in time because the place did end and my job ended. And it actually was quite traumatic because even though I had sort of intellectually acknowledged that there was a career. it was beyond the job.
00:28:54
Speaker
I wasn't prepared in any way to find what that was going to be. Oh, so you were coming to the realization, but in order to do this, the company went out of business. And now you were like, oh, I was getting there. i was getting ready to do this. Yeah. But now you're forced to do it.
00:29:09
Speaker
And in fact, the company went out of business shortly after I was laid off. So I had to deal with being laid off and them all going on and then them eventually going out of business. So that period of, I mean, I was jettisoned to kind of help the company survive, right? That's what you when you're going down, right?
00:29:26
Speaker
You cut employees. And so even though I realized i was going to have to go on without them when they went on without me, I was, I didn't know what to do with that. It was extremely difficult. And so I, I did have to sort of start figuring all this stuff out from scratch and so on. That does sound like a loss of innocence, really. I mean, sounds like kind of crushing.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I'll just say that I was also sheltered. It was, I mean, a loss of innocence, but also from having, I don't know, not had a lot of experiences. Not really, it's like my first job at a graduate school. I mean, it's an immature industry. I feel like, you know, may not make much sense to people that are on LinkedIn and sending out 100 resumes and that are reading the Medium articles about how to have a portfolio and being a researcher at with zero experience or one year's experience or five years experience, like it's codified now.
00:30:15
Speaker
Yes, it wasn't then. it wasn't then. It wasn't then. And even being a researcher was not really a thing. Yeah, you had to that was describe it before you even applied for a job because they didn't know what you were looking to do.
00:30:27
Speaker
So I was sheltered, but there also just wasn't a community of practice of just the mechanics of thinking about a career and having a job. Right. And working in this field was not well articulated. It's funny, though, because even though all of that contextual stuff, the time and the place when that happened is very different than the time and place now. There's career ladders and job descriptions and all that stuff now. Even though that's different now, I would think that this is the same thing that we all have to go through is this, quote unquote, loss of innocence, like the jobby level versus the career level, recognizing that your manager isn't necessarily the ideal
00:31:07
Speaker
That is and not changed at all. Like that is continuing. i think a lot of people, their first instinct when they think about that, they think about total disengagement, like a lie flat from China or a quiet quit from North America. You know, they think about, oh, well, I'm only going to give them exactly and not a penny more, not a minute more. i understand that.
00:31:27
Speaker
Completely. But I don't think that solves your career need. If you're going to continually think about your job satisfaction, your work satisfaction in terms of how well your organization shows up for you, and if they don't show up for you, then, you know, you're going to like, what, ah not worry about your own career at all?
00:31:46
Speaker
What? That doesn't make any sense. By all means, restrict your time. By all means, reserve the time to become that yoga instructor or whatever it is you want to do. But
Strategies for Negotiating Job Satisfaction
00:31:56
Speaker
do not completely alienate yourself from the joy of work.
00:32:00
Speaker
Work can be dignifying and amazing. And the fact that it isn't is not because work itself is not worthwhile. It's because the way companies show up for you is very predictable, very understandable.
00:32:14
Speaker
That's how the job market has been shaped by capitalism. So we talked about career and then we kind of broke apart job and career. Right. And then I think you're adding another piece to this framework, which is work.
00:32:27
Speaker
Right. Assuming it's research, doing research. Yes. Communicating research, setting up ops, all that stuff. The stuff that is joyful. Satisfying. And that probably brought you to this job to begin with.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah. So the job level and then the career level and then like work level. Oh, you're putting work on top. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And the only reason I think i'm I'm putting it that way is because when you no longer work full time, like I am not working full time for an employer or even for myself, I'm not working full time. you realize how important work really is.
00:33:02
Speaker
it It structures your life. It gives you a sense of fulfillment, satisfaction, excellence, competency, community. i mean, work is dignifying. It is important.
00:33:13
Speaker
Everybody should have work. And should they be paid fairly? 100%. Of course they should. But, you know, if you think your whole strategy is like, well, this job pays for my career, which is actually being a yoga instructor, right? OK, no problem.
00:33:27
Speaker
But if you don't have a job at all and you're trying to become a yoga instructor and you don't have any work, let's say you had all the money in the world. You still need to have some kind of structuring, creative, fulfilling output of a daily life. You have to do it. If you don't, you're probably lonely and sad.
00:33:47
Speaker
So our title for this, these conversations off the path and and some of the impetus for you know that as a framing that you brought is that there's a historical path that we sort of been talking about these sort of nominal things, managers, performance reviews, goal setting,
00:34:06
Speaker
OKRs, all that stuff. And then throwing around this idea. It's not hard to come up with someone that we would know where yoga instructor is literally the thing that they're doing. it might have been slightly pejorative in that. There are unlikely things that you see people shifting to. and it feels like now, and I think this is maybe part of what prompted you with this theme this title, is that there's a lot more of that. There's a lot more less likely things that people are going to do that maybe do or don't look like work. Mm-hmm.
00:34:35
Speaker
or do or don't look like full-time corporate research in tech work. And so it pushes on us, maybe analogous to my loss of innocence era, it pushes us to figure out how we're going to define where we get satisfaction from, where we get creativity from, or the joy of having created something, or the the enjoyment of crossing something off of a list, or the...
00:34:59
Speaker
Pleasure of engaging somebody else in seeing something new from our work. Whatever sort of turns us on about work, like you said, the structure of time, and it's very operational, but it's super important.
00:35:10
Speaker
That cliche of the person that gets fired, but still gets up and puts on their work clothes and takes their briefcase and leaves the house. Every day. as a way to either conceal it from their family is kind of a storytelling trope or it just for that structure for themselves.
00:35:25
Speaker
That sort of reminds us that there's just a lot of ways that work is providing a lot of service to us. If that changes, then it gets pushed back to us. Well, you might want to find another way to have structure in your day or feel satisfied or feel creative or whatever that is. Well, I think you're getting to the list of good enough job, I guess, is it has to give you dignifying work.
00:35:48
Speaker
It has to give you a bit of structure. It has to give you a little bit of that charge, that satisfaction from finishing something or talking to participants or changing somebody's mind or whatever it is. Those are the green flags for me of what a job needs to be, right? Like it has to have those things.
00:36:06
Speaker
I think my goalposts have moved a little bit about that platonic ideal. My head has hit the ceiling in jobs, and I have stayed in those jobs, not because i had to or whatever, but because there were still good enough green flags giving me good enough stuff that I needed.
00:36:22
Speaker
And it is a very difficult thing to realize, okay, my head is hitting the ceiling. Those green flags that I counted on are no longer here. In fact, the preponderance of the red flags is...
00:36:33
Speaker
way too high, I'm going to have to make a decision. And maybe i don't make it in time and the decision made for me, which, you know, it happens. It happens to all of us. But I think for me, the biggest thing is when I think about my career and I think about satisficing, I need to have that dignified experience.
00:36:51
Speaker
And if it's not in the job part at all, then I can't do that job. That's not a good enough job. So
Balancing Work Demands with Personal Life
00:36:59
Speaker
think you're saying that other things that you would do in your time or with your life, that's not sufficient to fill.
00:37:06
Speaker
No. A gap that a job isn't providing. If that job is so not satisficing, if those green flags that originally got me there are not there anymore, like maybe they changed, right? Maybe I got a new manager or maybe the company got acquired or whatever, you know, things change.
00:37:23
Speaker
You have to have a good handle on what has to be on the table for you and what is just like not negotiable. So you pointed out that, you know, you're not currently working full time for an employer.
00:37:35
Speaker
Do you look around at what you choose to spend your time doing and you are using some of that same criteria? are you Are there ways that you recognize what does or doesn't tick some of those boxes for you?
00:37:47
Speaker
It's great that you put it that way because I was actually having this conversation just yesterday with somebody. we were talking about how could we collaborate? Is there way we might be able to work together? And we've had a couple of meetings. And in this meeting, we were basically having the I don't think this is going to work conversation.
00:38:05
Speaker
And i was able to articulate to them why that was the case. It didn't give me any satisfaction. I got to be honest, because I did want to see an opportunity here. But I was like, I want to do research. That has to be part of what's happening. i can't be just like operations or what have you. There has to be research associated with it. And there has to be community associated with it.
00:38:28
Speaker
And the way that they had structured a bunch of things was very tenuous. There was always like freelancers coming and going. People weren't spending a lot of time getting to know each other. i didn't see a lot of evidence that they had created like a meaningful community.
00:38:45
Speaker
Not like that was wrong, necessarily. It worked for what they were trying to do. But I realized that I could articulate, no, no, no, that just doesn't work for me. If I'm going to spend time doing this, I have to feel like it's a part of, like, there's a research component to it and there's a community component to it. And that's not here. So if we can find another way to work together, great. If not, that's too bad. Like, I wasn't really happy about that outcome.
00:39:08
Speaker
But yeah, those are the green flags that I was looking for and they just weren't there. I don't know if i can do it. um I want to draw a parallel between the I need to control the outreach to participants and you need to be doing research and be part of a community. we each gave two examples that were at sort of very different levels. But I think, you know, your initial question kind of led us to talk about, well, what are the must haves that make what is good enough? Mm hmm.
00:39:34
Speaker
And they can be, i think mine was about efficacy and efficiency and providing value. And as we've talked more, we've gotten to kind of meaning, dignity, like some. Yeah, big ones. Some softer but bigger picture criteria.
00:39:48
Speaker
But it feels like the same thing. It feels like if I'm going to be involved in this project, relationship, and again, it's it's our job, career, work hierarchy. If I'm going to be involved in this, here's where the green flags are here's where flags are. And that we're going to make choices to be involved or not or how to be involved based on what we can assess.
00:40:09
Speaker
But my question to you was also around in the context, but you and I are in different contexts, but neither of us are full time corporate employees. Right. And so even trying to draw a line around what work is might be there's a certain subjectivity to that. hmm.
00:40:24
Speaker
you talked to somebody about working with them. Well, that's work, but you also catch up with friends and you you also network and you and I are having these conversations and recording them.
00:40:36
Speaker
It's all work. you know i'll work but It's all work. I think there are some permeable edges you know around it. The border is not thick black line for me. And I think just as my own lifestyle changes as work is busier or less busy or the industry changes, the economy changes,
00:40:54
Speaker
It feels to me like I'm getting better at, i mean, replacing some of the things that I'm not getting out of work that are sort of must-haves for me. Oh, you're getting better at doing that?
00:41:05
Speaker
I'm getting better at finding them other places. If work is not bringing me something, because I'm not spending 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week, right, more realistically, like for one employer, that's a big drain on your focus and your attention. It's true. It's hard to be like, it's true you know, but on weekends, I play in a band. Like, that's hard.
00:41:25
Speaker
Definitely been doing some soul searching even the last couple of years. ah If work isn't going to provide me some of these things, Then can I find it elsewhere? Yeah.
Conclusion: Embracing 'Good Enough' and Personal Satisfaction
00:41:35
Speaker
You have to have an awareness of what is it you're actually looking for specifically. Like, what outcome do I need from this quote unquote work? Like, what dignifying actions am I missing? Like, my creative payoff or is it my community payoff or like, what am I missing?
00:41:52
Speaker
I think that takes time. You weren't able to do that maybe when you were younger because you were putting all your eggs in your job basket. And then you realized your head hits the ceiling and you have to try something else. And then you try something else and it's like another, wow, look at all these opportunities I have. I mean, every time you change your job, start a business or what have you, you've got this big like...
00:42:14
Speaker
basket you unpack and it's very exciting like look at all the things I get to do now and that I wasn't able to do that last place well okay but your head will hit that ceiling too there's something key that you mentioned at least key for me is that some of these realizations are in retrospect I'm Yes. Working for myself or I'm working part time or I'm not busy with consulting work because the market is where it is and that you realize certain things. that I have these other opportunities. I get fulfillment out of this.
00:42:42
Speaker
I really need to feel like I mean, I was having to stop the last couple of weeks. It's really good to like make something. And that's a post, an email that's not like I don't mean texting someone, see you in three minutes. I mean, a thing that you've had to craft and articulate and deliver to somebody.
00:42:57
Speaker
So it's satisfying. Yeah, just making something that gets put out there like I need that. And that can look a lot of different ways. And if you're in a full time job, you're ideally you are doing a lot of communication, a lot of documentation. And so, you know, I think I might not have realized that was something that i like and that I need until I found less of that happening. Exactly.
00:43:19
Speaker
But then I start to realize, oh, these other things that I am doing fill that gap for me a little bit. This is not all to say identify this about myself. I need to be sort of publishing and communicating and documenting and sharing.
00:43:32
Speaker
So I need to seek out opportunities for that. no I just have operated like that for a long time. And when I found myself having less of that and I identified what the loss felt like for me, and then I happened to notice that I was changing some other behaviors. Like, oh, I can sort of fill this in. Oh, I like doing it. It doesn't have to be. a research report or a top line summary or a screener or whatever sort of the tools are. Like I can get that out of ah critiquing somebody else's creative writing is like shipping something that has some value. These bits and pieces, I think, are I'm always learning what that is and that
00:44:08
Speaker
The material that we have on our table in front of us is shifting. And so it'd be great if you knew what that was and could go after it. But sometimes these realizations are just going to happen.
00:44:18
Speaker
and If not in retrospect. then and Yeah, that's a realization, i think, that sometimes wish were not true. However, it's a totally normal thing. Like I always, oh you got to plan better. You got to be more proactive and understanding, you know, what gives you that satisfaction or whatever. And the reality is it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:44:37
Speaker
There is no other way to live except for as it unfolds in real time. And this belief that you can make ideal, perfect decisions all the time. And, you know, if you put in enough work or if you do this or whatever, you'll be able to get exactly what you're looking for. And no, no, no, no. That's the world is not a static place. It changes. You know, your context changes. You change. I think the problem is that we get attached to either blame. believing there's a perfect outcome, or to maybe the identity, well, no, I need to write a screener and do a research report to get the satisfaction because critiquing somebody else's creative writing, well, what is that? That's not my identity or what have you. I'm a researcher. I'm supposed to do these other things.
00:45:19
Speaker
I mean, you get stuck in those kinds of, that's totally normal. You can't undo that. That's the way you are as a human. The best you can probably hope for, the good enough, I think, is to think about, is this still working for me?
00:45:32
Speaker
And it's okay if it's not. Maybe I should find something different. We started off talking about project management thinking applied to jobs and or careers. And that mindset, to me, it seems like it wants you to plan and set objectives and determine timelines and so on. and then But I think you said just that something very profound in that whole thing, right? There is no other way to live except how it unfolds. yeah That's quite deep.
00:45:56
Speaker
I feel like Yoda should say that or we should be on a shirt or something. Maybe I'll have one made for you. Off the path, unfolding as it does.
00:46:07
Speaker
we can We can sell that at the merch table, maybe. Merch table. Yeah, we're going to have a merch table. ah At our live appearances. not Not a merch tab on the site, but a merch table. Merch table. That's right. Okay.
00:46:18
Speaker
With that, I think good enough career is the lesson here. Satisficing. I'm not a maximizer. That's the end. This a good enough episode? I think it's good enough. I'm going to go with good enough.
00:46:29
Speaker
That's it. Good enough. Thanks for listening to the Off Path with Sam and Steve, the show that takes you off the beaten path of research careers and onto your own chosen path. Hire Sam for research projects or research coaching.
00:46:43
Speaker
Take one of her classes or sign up for exclusive video content at samladner.com. Sam's books, Practical Ethnography and Mixed Methods are both available on Amazon.com. And her new book on strategic foresight is coming out in 2026. Sign up for her newsletter to find out more at samladner.com slash newsletter. Hire Steve Portigal to lead a research study with your team or to help build user research skills in your organization or to deliver a talk or workshop for your event. Learn more portugal.com slash services.
00:47:19
Speaker
Steve's classic book, Interviewing Users, is in its second edition with an audiobook. Check out portugal.com slash books for more. And Steve has his own podcast, Dollars to Donuts, where he talks with people who lead user research.
00:47:32
Speaker
That's a portugal.com slash podcast. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn.