Transcript
Speaker: This episode is sponsored by LexisNexis, supporting information professionals as leaders in AI innovation. Explore resources and tools designed specifically for your role at LexisNexis.com, Backsplash Community, Backsplash Info Pro.
Speaker: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of All In, the podcast where we connect with legal information professionals from across our profession to explore the ideas, peoples, and innovations shaping law librarianship I am Andre Davidson, and I'm the director of the Harris County Robert W. Haynesworth Law Library in Houston, Texas.
Speaker: And I'm Katie Brown, director of the Charleston School of Law Library. Thanks for joining us again. Thanks, Katie. We are excited to bring you a special summer edition. I know people expecting reruns, but not at all in. Not in the summertime. We have a new edition coming out for you all this summer. We're really excited. And this episode is entitled A Midsummer Library Dream. love it. You know I'm a three-year kid. This was honor of Katie, who is the theater geek among us. I'm the musician. But the title is inspired by Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night Dream.
Speaker: But today's conversation is about something every law librarian experiences each year. The unique rhythm of summer. Summer is a season of possibility. For some of us, it's welcoming summer associates, interns and judicial clerks. For others, it's redesigning courses, preparing for a new academic year. or tackling projects that are difficult to fit into the regular academic or business calendar.
Speaker: And for many of us, it's a time to experiment with new technologies, strengthen relationships, and invest in the next generation of legal professionals. Now that we're halfway through the summer, we thought this would be a perfect opportunity to pause and ask, what have we learned, what has surprised us, and what lessons will carry into the second half of the year?
Speaker: Yeah, one of the things that I really loved about this episode um when we started talking about it is that while our guests really come from different areas of law librarianship, the reality is that they're all doing something kind of remarkably similar because they're helping or have helped repair the next generation of legal professionals while they're navigating the profession that's really evolving faster than ever. Yeah, that's really exciting, Katie. And and so I'll have the honor of introducing all of our guests on our first guest on today. Our first guest is Miriam Childs. She's the director of the Law Library of Louisiana at the Louisiana Supreme Court. Miriam recently reminded us of our profession, the importance of celebrating the next generation of legal professionals.
Speaker: There was a post highlighting her library summer interns, which inspired somebody else at another state Supreme Court library to recognize its own interns and clerks. And it's a wonderful- You know what I love about that is how our profession, how we can get inspired by each other. Yes. And also how we recognize each other's work too. You know, we don't have any problem lifting each other up. and that That is amazing. I attended um ALA in Chicago and now we're over 15,000 librarians. And, you know, I talk about how the profession is so collegial and we're always uplifting one another and and we're champions for each other. So I really love that, that they shared this with us about Miriam, how her story inspired others in the profession. Miriam, welcome to All In.
Speaker: Next, we're delighted to welcome Eugene. And Eugene, I'm going to say your last name wrong, so please say it for me. i always get it wrong. i will give it Eugene Judajay. Am I correct?
Speaker: I know I'm just joking. He's the senior research services training specialist at Gen. He's also been a guest in my legal technology for practice class. And each summer, Eugene shares thoughtful reflection with the private law library, SIS, about mentoring summer associates. His annual reminder that today's summer associates may become tomorrow's managing partner has encouraged many of us to think differently.
Speaker: about the lasting impact we can have through mentorship, professionalism, and simply taking time to connect with each other. So welcome, Eugene. Thank you. And last but not least, I had the pleasure of meeting Emily, Assistant Director of Faculty Services and Lecturer at the Vanderbilt Law School at SEAL at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. She did an amazing presentation and we connected and we're actually gonna be together tomorrow to record CLE that she's doing for her, which i'm really excited. 53 people registered so far, so in county as well. So they're really excited about Emily. But Emily teaches one of the country's pioneering AI augmented legal research courses and helps prepare future attorneys to use generative AI responsibly while developing the timeless skills of legal research
Speaker: verification, ethics, and professional judgment. Emily, welcome to the podcast. I'll also say before I drop into this first question and start posing them to our amazingly distinguished panel that we have joining us, I have used a couple of Emily's assignments that she does share with people in my own class. I've modified them. I've tweaked them. She said that's A-OK. And I love it because she is also sharing the knowledge as we all like to do. So I'm sure she's going to talk about it more. But let's get into our first question. So let's begin with our theme.
Speaker: Summer often begins with a vision of what we hope to accomplish. Now that we are halfway through this summer season, how has your mid-summer library dream evolved?
Speaker: And I'm going to open this to anyone who would like to begin. i guess i'll I'll take it. Excellent. Well, as was mentioned before, the law library has utilized summer interns in the past. And one of our interns really helped us get through a time where we were short staffed. He went on to go to law school. We tried to convince him to go to library school, but but he did not want to take on the added debt. So it's like, oh man, I guess that is a reality.
Speaker: But So once we did become full staffed again, we hired a library assistant to assist with public services. She did go to library school and she graduated in May.
Speaker: We were able to promote her to become a librarian. So for me, that changes the summer because we have a new librarian among us.
Speaker: who And that, for me, that's like, giving back giving back to the profession and then tackling the pipeline to the profession issue where we were able to recruit someone who was interested in law librarianship right here with us.
Speaker: And now we've been able to give of her this wonderful opportunity to become a law librarian right here. So to see that happen in real time is is truly amazing to be able to offer this outstanding worker the opportunity to become a professional with us.
Speaker: So that has completely changed the way I'm looking at at the summer because, you know, she's, she just, it's like it was made official in May, but middle of May. So it's just been not quite been two months. So, so that's changed things because I'm seeing the role that we've given her and how we can do more, like more outreach. Yeah.
Speaker: because that is something we can have her have her help with and learn about, and more with digital access and digital services, digitization, which was really what we hired her as a digital services librarian. So I'm looking at a rare opportunity to have a brand new of law librarian who we can just build and mold and then help us do more. so Mary, I 100% understand how it changes your summer when you suddenly have a brand new librarian in the fold. And maybe even some of those projects that you thought you were going to be able to go to, do go to the side because you are now maybe training someone on some of those basics that you
Speaker: didn't necessarily, you maybe haven't even thought about doing for a while. it Looks like Eugene has his hand up because you all can't see this. so he wants so He wants to maybe add in here. What what are your thoughts on this? you One of the things, Katie, and I want to talk a little bit more about how it changes things. And I've always said that having the summers in the summer associates in the, in the firm, if they bring a certain energy that,
Speaker: cannot be replicated. And I feel the same way with fall associates. They bring a certain energy to to the firm, even if they're not like all in my office, just the mere notion of their presence here brings a certain energy. And I think summer associate time sort of comes at the right time of the year and that, you know, we come out of the winter, the winter doldrums and then spring and and and and we're sort of trying to get ourselves out of that that sort of hunker down winter, bundle yourself up mindset. And you have these these bright, shining young faces here.
Speaker: And one of the things that I've noticed, and I don't know if this is, if I can blame this on COVID or the remnants of COVID or the learning from COVID, but they seem a lot more hungry for connection with with people. and And one of the things that I'm taking away from this summer is that I've always been a little bit more deferential in terms of when I schedule my time with them because, you know, they come the first week and I said, well, you know, I know they're busy the first week.
Speaker: i'll I'll maybe do something with them towards the end of that week or the the second week. But it I've come to the conclusion that I need to be a little more and more aggressive. Like I need to be seeing them that first week as early as possible and, you know, to to push the case for involvement with them.
Speaker: So that's one of the things that I'm going to be changing in in my own approach to summers. Typically, and it always happens, and I never learned the lesson, I'm very fussy about, you know, their access and their IDs and all that. So I do them all myself. I don't let the vendors do it.
Speaker: I do it all myself. And so sometimes it's like, man, I just got to endure this. I just, you know, I've got like, I've got 28 Lexus IDs to create Westlaw, et cetera. And it's just, it's something to be endured. All right.
Speaker: And I never learn from the previous year that's that, yeah, you got to endure this little, like the scut work of summer associate, but you get a great reward because I get to work with such such interesting and outstanding individuals. And one of the things that I think I'm going to change in general is that we have like official summer associates. Okay, so there are two L's and three L's, or the two L's is going to be three L's.
Speaker: But we also have a lot more interns. a lot of them working in our pro bono practice. And in my own mind, I made a distinction between the two. Not anymore. I mean, I do, I'm going to do for the interns are who are mainly undergraduates, do for them like I do for the summers.
Speaker: And it the notion of having them in, and they're not even in law school yet is just, you know, it's just wonderful. I mean, I've met some really outstanding interns, like one of them, she's at University Chicago. She's majoring in, a double major in Economics and astrophysics.
Speaker: I mean, I'm looking at this i'm looking at this this embodiment of a brain here, and it's like, me yeah it's just so wonderful to have them with us. Really interesting. Emily, so I'm not sure, are you teaching summer classes? Are you working with people in the library? Share with us sort of what are some summer projects maybe that that may be something that different that you're doing?
Speaker: Yeah, so the academic side, i used to be in a firm. That's where I got my start professionally. And so I thought moving into academia, the summers were going to be smooth sailing. This is when I was going to get my R&R. This is when I'm going on vacation. Yeah. Like when people tell you, oh, we love that you work in the library because all you do is read books all day. Yeah. So coming into academia, I have to say summers almost feel as busy as when we're teaching. So at Vanderbilt, we actually don't teach during the summer. So we we send them all away. And so we get a little sad because they're not around. But then we get to get to all the big fun projects that we've been putting off as we've been teaching. yeah. This summer has been all about internal library work. So we've been working on our repository. We've been doing faculty scholarship metrics and how to build those and share those. We've been doing a lot of internal library stats, which sounds boring, but it's all about how we can tell our story a little bit better and you know make sure that our stakeholders know the kind of really great work that we do.
Speaker: And I've also been doing, as Andre mentioned, a bunch of CLEs. So instead of teaching students, I'm teaching attorneys. but So a little bit different of an audience. And then I think you both alluded to this as well. This summer was unexpectedly busy because i actually launched a free website full of all of the AI augmented legal research exercises that I do in my classes.
Speaker: And that was born out of so many conversations with other law librarians who want to teach that material, who want to get it started in their schools, in their firms, in their other library systems. And I am bad at email.
Speaker: So I launched this whole, I built a whole website so that anybody who wants to look at that can see it 24-7 without waiting on an email for me. And so I already had a busy summer, but then I pulled up this other project that made it a little bit busier as well. But, you know, firm librarians, ah no worries. We are also on the academic side working hard, even if we sent you our students and they're away.
Speaker: I love that. So Andre, I know you mentioned right before we got on this that you have a bunch of interns. So I wanted to ask you as well, what are you doing with your interns there at Houston? Yes. Like I think to express the sentiments that everybody shared, our interns bring energy. Again, we're doing a, have a session on this. It's national fashion day, which I would have had no idea.
Speaker: that that was a thing if our interns had brought it up. And if you don't know Andre, he is always very, very well dressed. Well, he looks fabulous today. He is ready for the fashion segment. no, our interns have been amazing. dave We've implemented a lot of new systems. I don't know. We we have we just got LibGuides, LibAnswers, LibInsights, the whole suite of of the SpringShare suite and the And they've been instrumental in helping us implement that transition data over. I was having a conversation with our county attorney about one of our interns. She's very passionate about They're attempting to build a data center within the city limits. And she wrote a letter to our county attorney, who's now transitioned this to our environmental team to investigate this potential data center and the harms and effects it's going have on the community. So not only are they energetic, but they're really passionate. really smart, really talented, really really driven, and they've just been ah joy to to work with as well. So we have four undergraduate students and one high school student, which is something new for us this school. So we're also exposing new people to the profession the law library and from innovation to access to justice to education as well.
Speaker: All of our guests today are doing wonderful things this summer. And with that being said, I think the common goal that we're all doing is investing in people this summer, which is really great. And that brings me to our next question. Every summer brings opportunities to shape the future of our profession.
Speaker: How are you investing in the next generation of legal profession professionals? And I'll start with, I think, Emily kind of talked about that. I'll start with you this time.
Speaker: Sure. So like I said, our students are out in the big world during the summer, so we don't get to see them as much. But in conversations I've had with attorneys, when I do CLEs, what I keep hearing is that everyone right now is kind of a new student when it comes to generative AI.
Speaker: So while we may not have the next generation in the room right now, it's really got me thinking about what I want to do in the fall, in the spring, when they come back. And I really want to give our students and the next kind of generation of lawyers the opportunity to really practice with technology, really get their hands dirty so that when they go back to the firms, they have the opportunity to kind of train the trainer.
Speaker: Right. so they have the opportunity to contribute to the firm and show them their knowledge rather than just receiving the knowledge. I'm hoping that's the way that it'll work because I just think that the future of the profession is about being smart and careful, but also really capable with technology. i think it's always been that way, but I think it's ah a bit more of a a requirement now. It's a necessity. And I want to make sure that our students can go into the world and do that.
Speaker: Thanks, Emily. Emily brings up a good point about them being facile with technology to being able to understand the tools. And one of the things that I've learned through not only through law librarianship, but my life is that if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Speaker: And I think part of my job is to be able to take the tools that are available to them. Like my firm is taking a more measured approach with with with generative AI, but taking the tools that are available and helping the summer saying,
Speaker: it's it's not just a question of let's put the round peg in the round hole and the square peg in the square hole. It's how do we sort of knock the corners off that square peg and help it to fit in the round hole? And and the the ability to sort of draw the analogy to say this doesn't exactly fit, but here are some here are the here are some principles that we can draw out using these tools that are going to help us solve this business or legal question.
Speaker: And then the only way I think that you can do that is through hands-on trial and error and experience. It's something that can't, you know, as as capable as Emily and Katie are in the classroom, that sort of thing has to be experienced to be able to do that. And I think being able to give them the tools that are available to help them knock those corners off is is is one way that I feel that I'm investing in the next generation of of of attorneys and legal professionals.
Speaker: ah love I love that. and And really, i think when I worked in firms too, I used to tell anybody we ah trained the incoming new attorneys, the falls and the summers, it's like start with the use case. If you have a project You start with that. Don't throw the technology at anything. Start with a use case and then we can share with you what tools you have at your disposal to kind of apply in whatever situation you have. So I love that. Miriam, did you have anything to add to this?
Speaker: I did because now that we have a branly brand new minted law librarian, the opportunity is or the investment is that I can mentor this person.
Speaker: i can help this new law librarian grow. I can teach her about how the court works because all of that is new to her. So I'll need to take the knowledge that I have accumulated over my two plus two decades plus working here and distill it into someone who is open to learning, open to growing. And I realize i don't get those opportunities a whole lot. None of us really get those opportunities a whole lot. Well, maybe some do, but for here, we don't have a lot of turnover. So for me, it's it's thinking about how I want to shape this person to make this law librarian work as best as possible for the court.
Speaker: And so it's an opportunity for me. It's an opportunity for her. It's an opportunity for me to rethink how the work is structured here. It's an opportunity to move some things around. It's also an opportunity to get her ideas on what she thinks.
Speaker: So it's, it's, ah it's a great chance for mentoring and for shaping. And she may not she may not stay here for her whole career. That's true for the younger generations. They don't stay somewhere for 40 years.
Speaker: But wherever she goes, I need to realize I'm the one who is her is her first director And that's an important role because I think all of us remember our first bosses.
Speaker: So wherever she goes, I want to make sure she's well-prepared. And I want to make sure that she she reaches whatever potential she'd like to reach here, that I'm able to facilitate that. So those are the opportunities that I'm that i'm thinking of this summer, those types of opportunities.
Speaker: It's so interesting that you mentioned that about that first boss, because I was actually talking with my brand new employee yesterday about telling her stories of my very first boss.
Speaker: So, I mean, that really resonates. And my boss has, my first boss has passed on. So it's really, that's a very powerful. So thank you, Miriam, for saying that, because that that means, I understand that those stories come back to you and you remember that moment from, you know, that very first boss you had. right And I will say, if you if you guys don't mind me jumping in on the the boss part, i still remember my very first academic law librarian boss and then my very first big boss in the firm world, but also my immediate boss. And they shaped all of the ways that I am a librarian and the way that I think about what I do. And that's been really valuable to me as I've moved through my career. When someone says like, that's that's a really interesting way. I'm like, oh, I can't take credit for that. That was that was my firm like world. that is all of them working through me. And I've been really lucky to have such incredible leadership around me. So it is such a big moment. And it sounds like Miriam, I think you might be a great boss. You might be a great mentor. that You have the opportunity to shape someone. And that's so exciting. And I think Katie, you too, but that it's, it makes it like ripples across the profession. Absolutely. absolutely Yeah. It was, it was my first boss.
Speaker: That was the reason I, got involved with double A double L and SLA and all that stuff because is it by example. I mean, if she hadn't come to a class and talked about the importance of connection in the profession, I wouldn't be where I'm at to today.
Speaker: So I tell everybody if, you know, I'm the librarian because I stand on the shoulders of these great women. They were all women. So you can blame them. But I think it's also, we set an example for the young law students and the young attorneys that we work with because not they are given a, for want of a better word, a privileged position.
Speaker: And it's, they have the opportunity to contribute back to the, to their own communities through, you know pro bono work through volunteer work, through the, through sharing the wisdom that they gain while they're under our tutelage.
Speaker: Yeah. I actually have a question for, um for Andre and Eugene, because I teach a legal technology for practice class during the summer and started to bring in that, that, sort of instruction piece for for students that maybe don't have the opportunity to be summer associates, but how can they get some of this instruction from people that are out there and traditionally would have summer associates or interns? And so I know, Eugene, I've asked you before to come into my legal technology class and talk with them about what it's like to be in a firm. And this year I had Andre speak with my class about access to justice and some of the work that they've done with legal technology. So what was that kind of experience like and how did you feel about being able to give back to and and give some of these little mini kind of instruction sessions and knowledge to law students?
Speaker: Oh, it was absolutely fulfilling. And i think for me, it's the pinnacle of giving back, helping form the next generation. I've been favored by, some of you might know, Scott Randall at University Chicago.
Speaker: And every year he brings in a series of individuals from firms, law law librarian to talk work in firms. And he's he's honored me with being sort of the kickoff one.
Speaker: And the energy that I sense, even through a Zoom interaction, is palpable. And the questions that they ask are inciting in insightful. And it shows that they want to do good work.
Speaker: And just the notion that we have these young people, for want of a better word, who want to do good work, who want to do good things. energizes me and helps me want to go with the extra mile for them and and give them a good understanding of what firm life is like and um not to rag on it but you know scott always says that after after he you know sort of debriefs with the class he goes boy that eugene he is that's the real thing he's the that is the real deal we got going here so the the ability to show them that real deal i think is
Speaker: is just the pinnacle for me of giving back. Yeah, I second what Eugene said, and I think having an opportunity, I was going to mention that anyway. Katie gave me the opportunity to kind of invest in the next generation of people legal professionals when I got the opportunity, along with Sarah Glassmeyer, to speak to her class. And they had such interesting questions and talking about access to justice. And the perspective that I had was unique because I have worked in the firm world. So and I have had many summer associates come in now that I see, as Eugene mentioned, that are now partners. And things like that. And it's funny, my when I worked my first firm, one of the summer associates is now, he's like general counsel at this big oil and gas company, but we're also good friends because we're in a band together too. so But we that connection that we we kept from way back then, we developed that relationship and and and our good friends were as well. So it's just many things can grow. And I really want to touch on Miriam, too, because summertime, of course, we know it's all conference. We know AA, double L conference is coming up fairly soon. So I hope to see everybody there. But the opportunity, as as now being a director, I have the opportunity to really invest in my my team, my staff, the newer law librarians. I have
Speaker: three new law librarians in there. Two of them are going to AALLL, and one of them is going to another conference, a legal aid conference in September with me, and that opportunity to be able to invest in them to kind of expose them to the law librarianship and really the whole legal ecosystem, as I like to say, is is rewarding and to see them grow. So that's really a great opportunity that you have. in thinking about my my first boss. And I had the opportunity, my the lady who hired me at a law firm when I came back to law librarianship in 2011, well, actually it her granddaughter graduated from college here and i was able to bring her to the law library and and give her a tour and everything and just thanking her for the opportunity. So it comes full circle, I think, as well. so that's And that's the great part about this profession is that we're consistently investing in our students, our patrons, our attorneys, each other. It's it's a really rewarding profession to be in.
Speaker: So I have another question this time for Emily and Miriam. I'm really interested. We've talked a lot about how we've been able to give to the interns, the employees, students, but I'm very interested in what you have learned from them because I do feel like with instruction, with teaching, with mentorship, right? It goes both ways. So what have you gotten back from those that maybe you've provided an instruction to or you've mentored or let?
Speaker: Miriam, you want to take it? yeah Go for it. It forces me to go back and remember what it was like to be a learner. Because I'm called upon to function at a very high level, basically 24-7, it's hard to remember when I was learning.
Speaker: when I was learning, when I was gathering this information and job knowledge and institutional knowledge that enables me to function at the high level. So it forces me into that mindset because I, because I've realized so much upon what I do know and and using that to function at the high level that I forget what it's like.
Speaker: So that's, that's what I've learned is like, go back and remember what it was, What steps did you have to take to learn all of this? Well, that's what you need to impart to this person. You need to go back. what What tactics did you use in order to gain this institutional knowledge? Because I didn't get here overnight. And they won't get to their highest peak overnight either. So it makes me go back. It makes me go back and remember, oh which is a good thing.
Speaker: So I don't get don't get too cocky. I'm going to piggyback off that. I'm going to piggyback off that a little bit. I think the students, our students especially, are so creative. They think about things in ways that I'm like,
Speaker: oh, that's that's so much simpler than the kind of convoluted way that I was getting at it They're so creative and like, they really are passionate. um And i want to shout out one of my students, if she should ever listen. um I taught a student here at Vanderbilt each of the three years that she was here. So it was a 1L, a 2L, and 3L. And I got to watch her grow into this really incredible lawyer. And everything, she's going to go clerk, she's going to go work in a big firm. Like, she's just done some really incredible work.
Speaker: And The person that she became from the first day of law school to the last day of law school, I mean, what an inspiring, super cool, creative, interesting person. And it's what it's like kind of taught me is just like we get to be around the next generation, but they're, you know, they're not just kind of little like copy paste versions. Like they're all really unique, creative people. They're going to go on to do amazing things. And we get to be a moment in their timeline. And we might make a big impact. We might make a small impact, but we get to be a part of their story. And it's just, i always think that's just like the coolest thing possible is that I get to see these really smart, incredible folks that think about the world in a way that I'm not, that I maybe get bogged down and I'm not, you know, too much work, too much on my plate. And they just remind me that there are a bunch of different ways to go about things. There's hope in the world, right? Because we're sending them out there and they're going to do amazing, cool things. And so they give me just really good perspective about kind of how bright the world can be and how we get to be in a moment of their lives to make an impact and to be a part of their story.
Speaker: Agreed. Love it. That's awesome. We're just going to take a break to hear from our sponsor, Ray. Every great era of transformation has architects behind it. Today's information professionals are doing more than managing knowledge. They're helping shape how AI is adopted responsibly across legal organizations.
Speaker: At LexisNexis, we're committed to supporting that work with trusted legal content, innovative AI technology, and solutions like Protege that help legal teams work with greater confidence. We're proud to support AALL and the All In Podcast.
Speaker: Explore resources, best practices, and the latest AI innovations at lexusnexus.com slash community slash info pro. Lexus Nexus, private, secure, authoritative, legal AI.
Speaker: Eugene, did you have anything that you wanted to add? to that? no i think I think I bask in the wisdom that Miriam and Emily have. i think just being with them and being with being with the Summers is just, it's an it's a soul-lightening experience.
Speaker: And it's just, i always I always rank it a privilege to be with them. and And one of the things that I tell them is I said, don't let anybody pull this Let me tell you how it is, kid. Nonsense. That that that just doesn't, that well, one, they're too smart to let that fly, but it it it shows such disrespect to them.
Speaker: And I think the more that we can treat them with that high degree of respect, and I tell them in the orientation that, you know, you're here in a professional organization. For my part, I'm going to treat you like a professional.
Speaker: And they just, they eat that up. And I don't mean that in a manipulative way, but they hunger for it. And Me being able to fill that hunger is such a great thing.
Speaker: that's That's awesome. And I think what all of you said, it really allows people to be them ah their authentic selves. And you see that growth arc and they show up with authenticity, which is amazing.
Speaker: And to to to kind of move from another authenticity to genitive AI, which of course ah very often is I was waiting for one of your one-liners. I didn't get that. That transitioned. But as we all know, genitive AI continues to shape our profession, legal research, our the practice of law.
Speaker: And I think you you all may have touched on it a little little bit, but of what kind of instruction, guidance, or support have you been providing this summer from your summer associates to Emily's teaching you know lots of CLEs and then even mi Miriam with her new employee? What what kind of information you are are you providing on the the use of generative AI?
Speaker: I'll start with Eugene first. Well, um as I said earlier, my firm is taking a more of a measured conservative approach to generative AI. So frankly, we don't have the the generative AI tools that they are exposed to in law school. And that's ah ah a blessing and a curse, but it, it, it enables me to say, okay, this is how things are in firms. You may not have the entire basket of tools and, and the, the,
Speaker: the the grand buffet that you have at law school. So let's try to work with what we have to get you what you need. And I think one of the things that is always enlightening to me is the openness that the young summer associates have to things like secondary resources. and and And sometimes they it opens up a whole new avenue of for jurisprudence and for learning and understanding when they know but of all all these things.
Speaker: that are are available to them and the fact that they don't necessarily have to go to the the generative AI tools. They can actually look at something that you know is reliable and authoritative.
Speaker: and And that's one of the things that that I try to impress upon them. But what's interesting, Andre, is when I started working with Summers, like 10,000 years ago when Jesus was a boy and I had to carry two buckets of coal uphill both ways to the schoolhouse in winter. In the snow. In the snow. 12 months a year in the snow. No shoes.
Speaker: no And no shoes. the The vendors used to say, please, you know, tell them they cannot use their school IDs while they are at the firm. And now it's like, I don't know about anybody else's experience, but it's like now they don't care. Okay.
Speaker: But I tell them, I said, please don't use your school access. Use what we have at the firm and it And I think that's a it's a stretching exercise for them because now they're really in tune to what might possibly be available or not available in a firm. And it broadens their ability to do good legal research, good legal writing.
Speaker: Awesome. Awesome. Miriam. Yes. Well, with our our new law librarian, um about a month after she started the court implemented an interim AI generative AI policy. So we're really getting her right there at the beginning on how the court is approaching the AI issue. And it is very cautious, very conservative, but it's, it's, we're not having to um erase bad habits. We're really get, get catching her like right at the beginning on how the court is going to approach generative AI. So the interim policy is in effect and and it is, like I said, very conservative. And generally the court frowns upon, I'm sure you can understand, using outside generative AI for the serious legal work that we do. The work that we do, people's lives depend upon it. And you cannot depend on chat GPT to analyze your legal writing when it comes to these very serious matters. So it's really, the the policy is crystal clear about the stance. So that was excellent timing. So we don't we didn't have to have a debate or we didn't have to figure it out ourselves. The court has provided the guidance. So now she is very clear about the policy and and and and what's expected and and what is not allowed. Thank you, Emily.
Speaker: So it's funny, Vanderbilt is a very pro AI institution. And so we kind of have the opposite approach of we let our students and faculty and staff kind of go all in.
Speaker: And so that is both a blessing and a curse because that requires a lot more kind of instruction. so Even though our students aren't here during the summer, and we still have faculty here, we still have staff. They have access to a full suite of tools and they have questions. This is kind of our interim period where we get ready as librarians to teach those next tools. Our AI instruction is integrated into our 1L curriculum and then we have an AI law lab here that teaches upper division courses. so We kind of have this fun thing in the summer where we're answering maybe the faculty and staff side of questions while getting ready for the student instruction.
Speaker: and And we also, we do a lot of CLEs, right? This is kind of our time to do that attorney-facing work and working with firms and and you know entering into partnerships where we try and do this AI education. And most of it's still foundational.
Speaker: Most of what we're doing is understanding what the tools can and can't do and then thinking through careful ways of applying them. We're not you know into the the full-on cloud co-work setups and that I might have on my own Most of the firms that we work with, most of the attorneys that we work with are still trying to get a handle of the technology because they're so cautious about those ethical considerations. So with lots of instruction going on, but also lots of prep for ah the students when they come back.
Speaker: It's so interesting. um yeah This summer, I had the opportunity to actually pilot a class with a small group of students, which was a using generative AI class. it was a purely based skills gen AI class. So it was just like getting in there, working with it and playing with the tools, which was great. I had a great group of students. They were all into play. learn the things, very project-based. And one of the things that was interesting, especially in the initial weeks, what I found was some of it was actually getting through the misconceptions that they had about the tools. And so I'm really interested from each of you, what's one kind of misconception you found kind of in in any instruction that you've given about these tools, be it to the students or... you know, employees or interns or summer associates you've worked with.
Speaker: I'm happy to go. these Yeah, go ahead. Cool. I'm happy to go first. So for students, I think, and this was, i was a little surprised by this. Most of our students assume it's going to be wrong more than it is, ah which is a great instinct to have. um So they are very skeptical of anything that comes out of any of these tools, legal or not. but they are really shocked when the tool is right about something or does the thing that they want them to do, which is great. And we we don't want them to change in any ways. But when we when I talk to attorneys and we work with firms, the misconception that they have is that anything they put in the tool, somebody else can see, right? So regardless of what type of tool it is, they are from the mindset of somebody can see this, so I don't even want to use it.
Speaker: and And again, not a bad starting point, but there is definitely a cautious approach to it where it doesn't matter what data protections are in place or what kind of agreements I have with vendors, what I put in there, a human being can see and they can use. So we work a lot with those kind of misconceptions in a way that ends up being a little pro AI, which I'm not always comfortable with. But those are I think those are the two ones is that it can be right and your data can be protected depending on what you're using.
Speaker: I say another way to think about it is less pro AI and more education information based, right? Yes. That's what we do We provide education. That's the right way. I'm going to say that now instead. Right. yeah No, that's pro skepticism. Totally fair. I mean, again, you're just providing the education. However it gets taken, it is what it is. Right. And it was interesting. I had an interesting use case that that was told that generative AI could do a table of authorities. And and so we put it to test and it, it
Speaker: It gave you the table of authorities, but it's not exactly what they were looking for. So the the expectations, the outcome and the the impact didn't didn't match up. And so I think setting those right expectations with the education and information, I think that's important to do. Andre, I think you' you've you've hit on a really interesting and important point about managing expectations, not only with the generative AI tools, but with tools and and products in general.
Speaker: I think part of the problem that we have in the profession is that sometimes law librarianship gets treated as a black box that you input your question, the law librarian does some sort of alchemy and magic and an and an answer comes out.
Speaker: And when you've got that model, there's there's no real way to manage expectations. And I think With the ascendancy of AI, I think we in the profession are going to have to get better and attorneys are going to have to get better at really managing expectations of each other.
Speaker: So you make a really good point about, you know, managing expectations of the tool, but also of of each other. Miriam, what are your thoughts? Well, I don't do a whole lot of of teaching or training myself with AI, but having the court's interim policy to set the expectations and the fact that it is more skeptical, that means we are very clear about how we need to approach writing and, and research. And when the the court's law clerks ask us for assistance, it's like, we're all, we're all on the same page.
Speaker: Cause that, that's, that could be, could have been a problem. without a policy, you would have the law librarians who are skeptical over here and then the law clerks over here who are going out and using chat GPT and using that in their work. So having that interim policy puts us all on the same page, which means the expectations are clear so that when we were working with court attorneys, that we're, we're at the same base level. So that, so that's,
Speaker: really ah a huge, huge help because the there's there's no one there's no need to try to experiment and find and figure out.
Speaker: Here it is. This is how we're going to approach it. So when we' when we're making that assistance, then it's very clear that the library is not going to be going out and finding using ChatGPT to help you. So it also just makes sure that we we have that quality the quality is going to be there and and we're all understanding that um of those expectations of of the level that you're supposed to work at.
Speaker: So having that policy really, really, really helps. It helps. So there's not all this these different ideas because it can be hard to rein that in.
Speaker: It's so great that you talk about how valuable that policy is because actually in our episode one of the podcast, we had Greg Lambert and Maureen here and the two of them, are sorry, Marlene, and the two of them emphasized how important it is to have those policies in law firms. And now we're talking about how important it is for us to get those policies from the courts so that everyone has those guidelines. So I think that's the general, like with generative AI, you've got to have that policy so everybody knows that Like these are the ground worlds that we're all working with. And so we can build off of those. So we have talked a lot during our time and I know we're getting to the end. We always love these conversations, but they do all have to come towards the end. We've talked a lot about, I know Eugene's over here crying, but we are getting towards the end.
Speaker: But we, I, what I'm really interested in knowing is if we check the box and we were looking at the end of the summer, What would you hope to be celebrating?
Speaker: I think for me that I would be celebrating the hope that these summer associates go back with stories of great insights gained, experience gained, that their time here wasn't a drudge, that their time here wasn't wasted, and that they will hold the legal information professionals like Andre and you and and Emily and Miriam in in great esteem. And I always say this and I repeat it and I'm like a broken record.
Speaker: These young summer associates are the are the managing partners, the office managing partners, the administrators of the future. Our future is is banking on giving them good service now so that when they are in positions of authority, they will remember the necessity of having trained professionals like us in the in the in the firm.
Speaker: For many of them, this is their first professional type of work experience. And I would be happy to know that they go back with stories of how they were treated professionally, how they were able to connect with people, that people didn't discount them just because of their youth, and that they take this as sort of a bellwether for what they can expect and how they should comport themselves when they are working with young youngest young so young associates, young summers, because they were once themselves in that position.
Speaker: And I think I'll be said celebrating the fact that I went ahead and took took a risk in a way to find out how we could keep this wonderfully talented person.
Speaker: working with human resources to figure out a way to promote this person and add her talent to our staff. And so i'll I'll be celebrating the fact that I'll still be training her and still hearing about her ideas about how she can shape her job and how she can help the library move forward. So I'll be celebrating the fact that we've got a huge opportunity with it being able to retain this talent, not just for the library, but also for the court, and then starting to make that talent work and improve things and expand our reach.
Speaker: So I'll be celebrating those opportunities that are right right there available for us to start pursuing. And then I'll be celebrating the return of the students. Honestly, I love when they go out and they have their first professional experience and they come back and they like think they just get stuff that before they it was all theory or, you know, when I was trying to teach it to them, i was... railing. I swear this is important. and So they get to go into practice and they come back and they're, they are true professionals. They are serious. They want to build skills. And and I'm also excited for, you know, i think I mentioned this, but um I don't teach the 1Ls, but every year when the 1Ls come in, like
Speaker: they keep getting better and better and they keep getting smarter and smarter. And it's just really cool to see them come in It's their first experience. They are ready for law school. They take it so very seriously. so I'm excited to kind of see them all bright eyed and bushy tailed, but really just looking forward to the students coming back so we can see what they've learned and hopefully make a little bit of an impact on them.
Speaker: Andre, what are you going to celebrate? That is awesome. No, I think we will celebrate. I think this is our first year we've had Five interns. But the impact that they've made, I think everyone said, it would be lasting. we'll will and I saw that starting from two years ago when I had one summer associate who's now a rising two-wheeled, and she's she did her...
Speaker: summer clerkship at a big firm and she came by a couple of weeks ago and she was really excited before she started. But the impact she made two years ago and and to see that lasting impression that it weaves through the law library. And I think Eugene was very poignant when he said you treat them like professionals, you treat them like they're part of the staff. You don't treat them differently than eat the way you treat your your everyday staff. They're an important part of the team.
Speaker: and And that's the the amazing part to see the work that they're doing now will have a lasting impact on the Harris County Law Library for many years to come. So I'm celebrating celebrating that and celebrating, as Emily said, because they are they're going to be your 1Ls next year in the future, and that they are coming in more prepared and more prospective of the legal profession. So I'm excited about that.
Speaker: Well, I know the thing that I am going to be excited about is that we are going to be at the annual meeting doing our first podcast where we're going to have some set.
Speaker: interviews with people, but then we're going to just randomly pick some people to have some conversations with. So I'm going to really excited and fingers crossed it's going to go well because we're trying it out for the first time. That is definitely exciting that we're going to be at- And hopefully we'll celebrate that. We will be celebrating it. I think it's going to be great just getting different perspective.
Speaker: And, ah you know, as I listened to today's discussion, I think, you know, we've had one prevailing theme. It's like, whether you're you know mentoring summer associates in a law firm, preparing future attorneys in the classroom, educating attorneys about generative AI, preparing the next generation of legal information, professionals, law librarians, we all engage in the same work, and that's investing in people and and investing in each other. So we know technology will continue to involved. Genitive AI will continue to reshape legal research, but what what remains constant is the role of law librarians as educations, mentors, collaborators, and trusted guide.
Speaker: Like Shakespeare's Midsummer Night Dream, this episode reminds us that some of us that some of the most meaningful discoveries happen when we pause and we remain open to new possibilities. So we've all seen our greatest successes not only come from just projects we complete, but from the people we encourage to relationships we build and the profession we're hoping to shape. And I am super excited about doing this in a live format with a My partner in pod, my PIP, you know, not performance improvement plan, but my partner pod, Katie. So we're really excited to see everyone at A-A-O-O in Cleveland. So thank you all. Thank you, Emily. Thank you, Eugene. Thank you, Miriam, for joining us on this episode, all in episode four.
Speaker: So until next time, keep learning, keep connecting, and keep moving law librarianship forward. Thanks again.
