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Fanta 4 and Advanced Chemistry, Commerce and Underground
42 Plays3 months ago
We talk about two dominant groups in 90s German Hip Hop, how this genre came about in the first place and why it was already a talking point back then to "sell out".
Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
So hi Dom. Hi Chris. I have some news for you from 2000s, actually the year 2000 in Germany. Okay. Okay. Hip hop is dead.
00:00:14
Speaker
Oh, that's a shame. Yeah. Cue intro music. but yeah So that's a hot intro. Yeah. It's a hot intro.
00:00:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:41
Speaker
So the basically what i' what I'm going to start with, first off, sources are all going to be, I think we're going to make a document of the sources. So if anyone actually listens to this, they can read up on it.
00:00:53
Speaker
But basically, have to have your academic sources for Exactly. There is 2000 rap drama. Exactly, 2000 rap drama. Actually not 2000 rap drama because German hip-hop kind of started in the late 80s, early 90s. But people started writing about it to year 2000 basically and like mid 90s, late 90s.
00:01:14
Speaker
So that's where my sources are from. So we're kind of already bit removed from the actual inception. yeah But the main book that we're probably going to use for next couple episodes is Bei uns geht einiges, which kind of translates to like their stuff happening with us, like the kind of moving things.
00:01:34
Speaker
And it's by a bunch of journalists who just interviewed different people in the hip-hop scene in Germany in the year 2000. Oh, interesting. okay Yeah, and there's an introduction chapter, which I was referencing in our great intro by Steiger.
00:01:49
Speaker
which probably will deserve his very own episode. He's a famous hip-hop journalist. Sure. the point where I knew, I don't know much about hip-hop history, i so I had to research all of this, and this is also before my time, so maybe some things will be off. But basically, Steiger, you know, because he will be referenced in hip-hop songs to this day. Like, people just name-drop him.
00:02:12
Speaker
And he's a journalist. is He's not even making music. Does he work in the space still, or has he, like, retired slash moved to other journalism? He's not super active, but okay he will still write articles now and then, like guest articles.
00:02:26
Speaker
he Right, got it. But we'll we'll get into all this when we do an episode on him, but he also is pretty based by the looks of it. Okay, hell yeah. He was criticizing Israel in 2014. Damn! Yeah, and so we managed to make the podcast political in the first four minutes, so that's great. But, yeah. We both knew it was going to happen. There wasn't a way to avoid it. I know. I was just like, let's get it out of the way. Let's get it out of the Right. Right, right, right. Yeah.
00:02:50
Speaker
So, yeah. I will read his, like, part of his intro. And, yeah, it's kind of ah it's on point. And I think it sets a good tone for the episode. let's do it it says He says, the thing is this, when artists who are under contract with the industry turn against that very industry in their songs and play with a rebellious or independent image, then the industry has simply sold the product and the revolutionary attitude fades into an empty pose, likely to be out of fashion again by next year anyway.
00:03:16
Speaker
Next music trend, next image, please. The only unfortunate thing is that thousands of kids while rapping along to seemingly subversive and critical lyrics actually feel unconventional and revolutionary. Right. But in reality, they're just fulfilling the mundane consumer expectations of the society. It's not a big deal.
00:03:33
Speaker
Just, you have to be aware of it. Yep. And then the famous line from the intro, he's like, in that sense, what the media calls hip hop is really just the new German pop schlager. And in that sense, hip hop is dead. Ooh.
00:03:46
Speaker
That's a hot take. Yeah. Right out of the gate. And like, Look, we're going to have lots to say on this for sure. But this conversation, the one that he's bringing forth in, you know, Deutsch hip hop right there in the intro is the same one that's been going on in American hip hop.
00:04:05
Speaker
for decades, right? that The same thing, around the same time period, really. So it sounds like he's pretty dialed in to not only, you know, the hip-hop ethos of, like, where does a sense of, you know, genuine art come from in the music that you're making, right? Like, is it sincere or is it just consumer? But also, like, politically, he's dialed into the fact that hip-hop cannot be separated from politics because he's immediately...
00:04:35
Speaker
identifying that it's like okay well this as as a as a mode of consumption we actually can't say hip-hop exists in the way that you know ideally it would right so i don't know just my take yeah yeah for sure i think um yeah I completely agree. And it's also, yeah, this is just, I think it almost, we will see more of that as we as we talk this through, but it was all also happening very quickly, I think, in Germany at the time, because, you know, there was so much to build on already that came over from the US, foreshadowing, um
00:05:10
Speaker
that they have this conversation really quickly. Okay, so he's saying that, like, yeah, so the intro applies then to the 2000s, and he's saying that back in the 90s, there maybe did exist a form of genuine hip-hop in Germany. Sort of, yeah. But then...
00:05:25
Speaker
But then, yeah, exactly. As it becomes as it becomes ah commodified, then that's when hip hop dies, much like in the US. Exactly. And then got um people find ways around that or you get some underground movement or whatever. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then people from some people from movements will sell out and then we have the whole discussion again. But yeah, the details are what matters and what's interesting and we can get into those.
00:05:50
Speaker
For sure. You know, when Rapper's Delight came out, that was 1979, so quite a bit earlier. And one year later, in the year 1980, we actually have the very first German rap song, which was called Rapper's Deutsch.
00:06:08
Speaker
o Okay. Which was a bunch of... basically comedians or have they had their own like TV show rapping on the beat of Rapper's Delight.
00:06:21
Speaker
Oh, I see. that So it was like a comedy central bit. effective Basically a comedy central bit, but it was pretty impressive that they were so tuned in because as far as I know, Rapper's Delight wasn't actually that huge in the US. like it was It made it into the charts, but it was much bigger the UK.
00:06:37
Speaker
and Yeah, being a contemporary fan yeah of hip-hop, I don't even know Rapper's Delight on the top of my head. yeah so Yeah, but that's just an interesting tidbit. But the actual real story starts not the beginning of the 80s, but the late 80s.
00:06:54
Speaker
And basically what we have is a reunified Germany But we will not get any music from the East, any hip-hop music from the East of Germany for another a couple years. We'll get Right, I see.
00:07:07
Speaker
Oh, dude, the East-West hip-hop evolution is going to be crazy. I can imagine. Oh, my God. You know, in the US, have East Coast, West Coast. You have Eastern Germany, Western Germany. Yeah, oh, the parallels are already coming together. It's still living. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:07:21
Speaker
um And the actual big hip hop centers were the ones that had the biggest US army bases in Germany. Ah, that makes so much sense. Yeah. And today there's two Stuttgart and Heidelberg that are going to be the ones of the two respective groups that we'll talk about. And we'll talk about some people too, but and those are the ones.
00:07:44
Speaker
And the first ones are the Fantastischen Vier from Stuttgart. Translates to the Fantastic Four, as you could have maybe guessed. Right.
00:07:56
Speaker
And I will send you your a picture and you tell me what you think of them. Please do. I'm so right. I'll actually send you a bunch of pictures.
00:08:08
Speaker
We'll go for the first one. Very cool. Yeah. Very 80s. I'm actually loving it. yeah It's giving Vanilla Ice. Oh, that's so great that you say that. Okay. Because I think their arc is pretty similar to Vanilla Ice.
00:08:24
Speaker
Really? okay Yes. Although you might know more about him than i do, but... Doubtful. Maybe maybe we'll see. him Maybe it's not a good thing to beat him into the Vanilla Ice lore.
00:08:36
Speaker
And then I have another picture. Two albums in, basically. This is for Harbour. Sure, okay. One of the German magazines. Oh, my lord. Yeah. Describe your first impressions if you if you want to. Okay.
00:08:48
Speaker
Without me telling you anything about them. Yeah, we're going purely off visuals here. Yeah, exactly. And we have we have three pictures, for of course, for the audio listeners. We have the first picture, which I'm guessing is ah is the earliest in their career, um just based on the fact that the lower picture has a label of 1988, and these guys are 80s rappers, probably were operating. For that, their fashion sense, incredibly cool.
00:09:12
Speaker
Very 80s. You got the sun visor, sunglasses, the flat brim caps tilted you know at like a 40 degree angle off their forehead. Sort of like long curly hair. One of them has a beret on. You're looking at like big old necklines on their on their shirts. and Very cool fashion, basically. It feels like they all kind of have a sense of how they want to dress, which is pretty sick. I love it.
00:09:37
Speaker
By 88, kind of almost transforming into what I would consider like stoner wear in like the 2000s. So we're looking at like glasses with pretty clear brims or like orange brims. Their hair has grown out even longer. They have like Baggier clothing on, for sure. Hats that are maybe like, a damn, what's it called? Bucket hats, things like that. So yeah, stuff I'd call stoner wear, maybe a little less distinctive than what they had earlier in their career. And then the third picture in 93, quintessential 90s wear, some of the holdover from the late 80s. Yeah, that's the best it. We're looking at more branded stuff here, I can definitely see...
00:10:23
Speaker
um And things that seem to like kind of show off specifics of what they're wearing. like Like basically I'm looking at like pants or shirts with logos on them, hats and beanies. And like this is, I suppose you said this is like their second or third album or something. Yeah. I would guess by this point they've been...
00:10:44
Speaker
Signed probably to a major label that wants to be able to say hey look at our guys wearing cool You know up-to-date Where yeah, but that's the guess here the label Sony of course also I genuinely have trouble Keeping three of them apart Sure One of them is quite distinct because he has glasses and right like half is half bald to fully bald, depending on the time.
00:11:16
Speaker
yes so But three of them are like quintessential, like look very similar. and like Later on, I see more differences in them, but like for the third picture, I could genuinely not tell you.
00:11:27
Speaker
Yeah. Three others, who is who, because they all have similar facial expressions and faces. Like, if you told me it's the same guy dressed up in different ways, I would be... Yeah, you'd be like, yeah, that's kind of disrespectful. That's obvious. but's Yeah, it's...
00:11:42
Speaker
ah So yeah, that kind of tripped me up because I was going to introduce them to you one by one and then i was like, actually don't know which one's which. is Which one is which? Yeah. But basically, in the very first picture, you see the guy in the front is Smudo and the guy in the back, who is old the bald guy, is Thomas D. right And they are the two that sort of founded it and are the most important. And then one of them is producer and one of them is the third rapper that no one knows.
00:12:08
Speaker
um but So that's basically it. Yeah. So Smudo, I think everyone in Germany would have heard of him. And Thomas D, not so much, but the people still be aware and the rest, genuinely, if you wouldn't, if I hadn't done research on it, no idea. They exist.
00:12:22
Speaker
You know them as part of the Fantastic Four, but that's it. Right. And basically their love for hip hop started basically by having us records at home.
00:12:35
Speaker
Got it. Okay. Living in a, in a city that had GI discos and GI like record shops and things like that. Interesting. Yes. And technically some of those you weren't allowed to actually purchase things if you weren't American, but these rules were pretty lax. Yeah. I see.
00:12:53
Speaker
And this was that it goes in West Germany. when there This was all West Germany, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. Like did the American occupation zone, basically. I mean, it was it wasn't technically occupation anymore, as far as I understand, but there were still loads of troops stationed there. and Right, I mean, to this day. Yeah, it was the height of the Cold War, or like, just after the Cold War.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah, and there were like I read some articles where like basically these GI discos seem to be quite exclusive things, and you could get the latest music there, obviously. o And yeah, the the ones on the army bases you would not really get into, and the ones in town you might have a bigger chance. Yeah, you might, yeah, yeah. And that's where a lot of these people would have heard hip-hop for the first time. I see. And so wait, so had how did vinyl get out then? Were there like pressings that were made of the GI's...
00:13:40
Speaker
music that then just got integrated into the local, you know, the locality or were GIs coming in and just like offloading, you know, vinyl that they didn't need or want to bring I think it was, I think it first was mainly for GIs and then kind of naturally the local demand exploded as well. Right. Just because they were hearing. So they talk in their interview about like the first, first they would get these records from GI discotheken, which is like record shop basically. And then later on, there would be the first hip-hop discotheque in Stuttgart where they could get exclusively hip-hop records and they would just be imported.
00:14:19
Speaker
And they talk about, yeah, it's like crazy, different times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Smudo is the one who is the most public face of the guys. And so we know most of the interviews are with him. And he's talking about his father having like, listening to pop up as a rolling stone, which is not really like not really hip hop, but kind of going into the direction. And then him writing himself listening to Buffalo girls, the message by grandmast of flash and stuff by public enemy and so forth. And that kind of influencing them for sure.
00:14:55
Speaker
And, but about the actual rap scene, I have a funny, some funny extracts for you. Sure. You might find amusing. Just, and we're getting into this here. i think we'll have this throughout the podcast. This will be a big theme. German hip hop, like, it's different.
00:15:10
Speaker
It's very different to the US. i mean, what do you expect? They're very different countries. And yeah when would you say, i don't know, we're both not experts on this, but when would you say, like, hip hop really took off in the US? I guess people disagree on that, but... Yeah, I think that as far as mainstream appeal, hip hop was relatively underground until like the late 80s and early 90s. And even then you did have a combination of hip hop with like campy hip hop was pretty popular even in the 80s, right? That's why you're, you know, someone like Vanilla Ice obviously like had a big name, right? But I would say in terms of like properly mainstream appeal i'd say the 90s is when sort of classic rock or or just rock and roll handed it over to hip-hop as the mainstream appeal leader yeah yeah that's sort of the impression i had as well that basically it came into the mainstream in the same time like very closely matched like between germany and the us but you didn't have all this underground scene beforehand in germany
00:16:15
Speaker
Really? Yeah, I see. We'll talk a bit more about that later, but here, I'll just read to you from the interview. So he says, around late 88, early 89, we fully committed to music music making music in German. So that's when he actually started to make hip hop in German, because he also had a bunch groups in Germany that were by like German guys and gals that rapped in English.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, English speaking and made the yeah made the stuff that they heard effectively. yeah but he like And this is as far as they go based on like hip hop scene. Like a lot of kids back then, I went through a short graffiti phase when I first got into hip hop. Spray cans were of course stolen and you got caught the very first time. It was brutal.
00:16:58
Speaker
I got off with without charges, thanks to small town politics. My mom was on the local SPD board, which is the Social Democrats. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I had to do a weekend of community service and never touch the can again.
00:17:13
Speaker
Compare this to your OG rappers in the US. It's it's a bit different. And then he also says, I dabbled in breakdancing too, but only at youth center parties.
00:17:24
Speaker
ah Breaking was super rare in Stuttgart back in 86, 87. Basically no scene, no real competition. Hip-hop band was something we pieced together from movies, album covers, and GI discos.
00:17:35
Speaker
There just wasn't an active scene like there is today. ah quickly got sick of dancing and graffiti and what stayed was the music. Well, not everyone we cite in this will agree with him, but for now we can take him at his word.
00:17:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's that's that's... I can imagine the early scene. That is... First of all, very funny that... you know he had a just a barely a brush with something as criminally inclined as a little bit of graffiti yeah um oh i had to do community service i've never touched a community service that straightened me right up like good good for him but also like i think i think in a very genuine way it does speak to the relationship that like
00:18:21
Speaker
poverty and crime has to hip-hop in the U.S. as compared to the aesthetics of poverty and crime in the relationship that it has in you know to German hip-hop, right? ah In the U.S., and like obviously we'll touch a lot on this later as we get into the 90s and early 2000s hip-hop, but in the U.S., so much of hip-hop is...
00:18:45
Speaker
is the aesthetic or, you know, relive, if if you're like a real genuine, like you came from the streets type rapper, a reliving and retelling of like hardship and things that you did having little to no resources and you were just trying to survive out here. So largely poverty or the things you do for entertainment and poverty, that's what graffiti is, right? Is like finding an artistic outlet in those moments. And so to see that Germany's Parallel or equivalent here is like, you know, I tried graffiti for a weekend and then my mom made me do community service and and I realized crime crime is bad. Like, yeah, it's it's a funny parallel to draw between the two because.
00:19:28
Speaker
sociopolitically, there's two such completely different situations that trying to emulate one in the context of the other just doesn't really translate, which makes sense. To be fair to Smudo here, though, he's not like, from the context of interview, he's not like, that is like a funny anecdote he tells, but it's not it's not informing them. Like, they are very clear that they're like middle class and don't really relate to the right origins of hip-hop in the US. Right, right, right.
00:19:55
Speaker
And actually we can go into that too, so to sort of the the blackness of hip-hop you could say, because, and they and they talk about it that way, because what they say is, people forget that we're just Central and Eastern European observers and imitators. It's actually kind of embarrassing for a band like us to start telling others what's real or fake hip-hop, because the truth is our connection to black music is purely theoretical.
00:20:18
Speaker
right So they're really, really clear. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah yeah yeah, they have an obviously good perspective on like what their relationship to quote unquote genuine hip hop is. yeah That's not to disparage German hip hop, which grows then to be largely its own thing. I mean, yeah obviously it takes cues from from American hip hop, especially in the in the inception in early years, maybe where there's like a larger body of work in America.
00:20:46
Speaker
The fact that they have that really excellent perspective, one, I think allows them to pay homage to American hip-hop, but also allows German hip-hop to grow into an independent thing, which is necessary, right? You don't want it to just be a fucking one-to-one mimic.
00:21:02
Speaker
It's interesting, though. It's also a bit of a cop-out, in my opinion, because, I mean, it also all is in the details again on on what they do in the scene and stuff like that. But because, i've I mean, there's also been this discussion in the US, I guess. We mentioned the Vanilla Ice already earlier. He was completely oblivious. like He was like, yeah well, I'm just doing my thing. I'm just making music, you know? i'm I don't see any problem with like why like I'm not taking anything away from black people. But the thing is, like someone with his same skill set who was,
00:21:33
Speaker
who who was black would not have had the same chances, right? so exactly Exactly. But in Germany, it's much less clear because, of course, we don't have these socioeconomic conditions. Right. So yeah, tricky one, tricky one. He also says, like, he said, we didn't grow up with that cultural and historical background. No one ever came up to us and said, your brother died in a shooting because of the neighborhood we live in, because of the color of our skin. We never sat in a job interview and been told we are not qualified only to watch Mr. White walk in and get the job. So they're pretty, odd they were aware of these problems, which is, which is nice.
00:22:03
Speaker
You know, that's, that's what I fucking love to hear. Not to get too political here, but I think that hip hop is inherently... you know, intertwined with politics. And part of it, by and large, is like an awareness of the socioeconomic conditions that were making hip hop one of the few outlets for black people in America um in the 80s and 90s and stuff. So the fact that they're aware of it I mean, i would expect nothing less from fundamental and influential early hip hop group in Germany. You have to be that sort of level of intellectual and quote unquote woke to actually do justice to the genre. So good for them. I mean, I have the utmost respect for them.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think I completely agree. Well, they basically were the first ones to really release a fully German language rap slash hip hop album in 1991. And but basically how they tell it is that they got some contacts at the studio at Sony. Basically Sony was sort of saying, yeah, we need some kind of group that does hip hop in German. And they Otherwise, someone else is going to do that.
00:23:19
Speaker
They earned the money they do for a reason. They knew that the trends were going that way, I guess, or that that that was something that would sell. Right. Yeah. They watched the market niche. And so they they saw them as their group and was like, yeah, well, we can.
00:23:31
Speaker
And that's where we kind of get into criticism that I have of them, because it very much feels like to me, it's like, well, these people are like great and kind of moldable and will do things.
00:23:43
Speaker
They will push out albums. Like they will, you know. Ah. First album, actually not a huge hit, but it was also not like backed like crazy. It was more of a a bit of a test, it looks like. We won't listen to anything from that one.
00:23:58
Speaker
Sure. Okay. But the second album immediately had a single that got them to number two in the charts for like ah for like a couple of weeks. Oh, damn. I mean, that's a significant jump to go from, yeah, test experimental yeah album to number two in the charts. Are we talking are we talking overall charts? Are we talking German hip hop charts? Are we talking like... No, overall German music charts. That's crazy. What a jump. And I would say everyone today probably still knows this song.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, I would say so. I would say i would say it's it's quite catchy. and Or people my age and older, let's say that. Probably, actually, I'm getting old. Sure, okay, got it, got it. Not these Gen Alpha youngsters.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'm getting old, so I think, actually, this is more, I generalized it too much there. So can hop in, you can give it a quick listen, and that will be our first break, I guess.
00:25:03
Speaker
Hi, future Chris here. We obviously can't include the music in the podcast itself, so if you want to listen to the tracks, visit GermanRappPodcast.com. That is GermanRappPodcast.com.
00:25:52
Speaker
This honestly incredible. Definitely not a niche I thought was being explored this early on. You can see like you can see the late 80s influence on the fashion. You can see the early 90s work starting to creep in.
00:26:07
Speaker
like Musically, it's closer to 90s hip-hop, I would say. But in terms of what they're wearing, the eighty s is into late 80s into early 90s still definitely is on screen.
00:26:17
Speaker
And like filming wise too, just the cinematography is very 80s. And it's just so surreal to see what I thought was an exclusively American thing be translated to, yeah you know, German audiences. Like they were really successful, of course, right off the bat.
00:26:33
Speaker
yeah So, song content-wise, as you probably guessed, is not very deep. It's like a sort of, it's a comedy slash triangle thing where they basically, in the song, they're like, each, everyone gets a part. And in that part, they talk about this girl who they met just recently. And she's so amazing. But the only thing is, it's weird because she's never free on Thursdays. And then the next guy goes and he's like, ah, the weird thing is she's never free on Fridays. And then it turns out at the end that like they have all been seeing the same girl and she's just using the days of the week to like see the others. So um it's it's a fun little song. Right. Oh, it's weird. So it was, of course, the first really popular hip hop song in Germany.
00:27:11
Speaker
But in terms of influence like culturally or like in the music scene, it actually didn't make huge waves and inspired lots of people. Lots of this, the work that they did, if you watch interviews from the time with the other artists, and this is where we'll kind of move on a little bit from the Fantastic Four.
00:27:29
Speaker
They are basically like one guy, I think it was MC René, I hope I'm not misattributing here, that was basically saying like, yeah, the Fantastic Four were great inspiration of how to not do it. So this is where the drama starts, basically.
00:27:43
Speaker
Killer burn. I think their music is like, you can still listen to it today. Honestly, the whole album is a little bit like this, so I can't listen to the whole album, to the whole album they really, without getting a bit bored. But yeah, sure it's fine. They had a, have, I should to say, an incredible career. Right. I like ah putting you on your toes. I'll give you a guessing game. When do you want to guess that did the last album come out?
00:28:06
Speaker
o Or the latest album? I'm gonna say that like, oh geez, these guys look like they're in their maybe like mid-20s in this first video from 91 you said? Yeah, they were mid to actually more like late 20s. I could believe late 20s too. So that would then make them, oh my god.
00:28:32
Speaker
like 60 now like close to 60 some of them yeah um that's actually i can tell you smudo is 57 now wow yeah so yeah okay so so hip-hop tends to be the game of the youth so i'm gonna say that like probably not super recent but maybe based on what you said about them having career maybe not yeah that's true i Maybe not as old as I would expect. I'm going to see the last time they put out a project was like 2016 or 2017.
00:29:08
Speaker
sixteen or twenty seventeen Yeah, well, slightly off. 2024. 24? These guys are yeah banging out new beats in 2024? Oh my lord.
00:29:20
Speaker
Yes. And you know where they charted in 2024? Where did they chart? Better than their first album. The first album actually was hit third in the charts. Oh my god.
00:29:32
Speaker
They actually started second. Oh my god. Just for, they didn't have a super successful single this time. ah Got it, okay. Yeah. That's crazy. Or the first album that we're considering here, actually there was one before that, but that was basically... That was the experimental one. who Yeah, exactly, sort of nobody knew about it at the time. Then they they put out one that was not that well received, and since then, from 1995 to out eight
00:29:59
Speaker
they put out eight albums Okay. So given that it's quite a long span of time, it's not that crazy in terms of output. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's pretty even, like 1995, 1999, 2004, 2007, 2010, 2014, 2018. Right, every four to three to five-ish years. Yeah, exactly. So we can calculate when the next ones kind of come out in the mid-60s.
00:30:22
Speaker
Every single one of them either went second or first in the charts. Wow, holy shit. The four of them second, four of them first. These guys are consistent, man.
00:30:33
Speaker
Yes. And I have basically, and yeah, it's and you kind of said like hip hop is a game of the youth. Not in Germany. not Not in Germany or maybe maybe still in Germany because loads of people don't consider them hip hop.
00:30:50
Speaker
Ooh, that's controversial. Okay, so what do they call them? Well, pop, basically. Pop! Would be the... Okay. Yeah.
00:31:00
Speaker
Well, we... So, first off, so basically we go back to Steiger in the beginning. Yes. Go back to the very beginning where he brought his intro to the to this hip-hop book from 2000. He's like...
00:31:11
Speaker
So the discussion around the Fantastic Four is really nonsensical because the Fantastic Four are simply the German salt and pepper. Yeah. Talking about their meaning, that meaningfulness or like their meaning to hip hop is like, it's not really it, he says. Right. So we basically just wasted time now. No, that's not it. But he's he's very dismissive of them in terms of cultural impact. And maybe he's right to some extent because they don't get like sampled a lot or referenced in other songs and and stuff like that. But they did make it popular.
00:31:45
Speaker
They did make it popular in Germany. So it's ah it's a difficult one. You know, I think that, man, so Steiger actually agrees with some of the folks who say it's not hip-hop then, right? that's that's Sorta, yeah. He kind of says like they're like the most basic hip-hop band. Yeah, like okay, so see, that's what I'm taking away from from his comment there. Because to me, Salt-N-Pepa is absolutely a hip-hop group.
00:32:13
Speaker
It's that contemporary hip-hop group. But it is yeah that's fair fundamental in the in the stepping stone. So I think that Steiger, whether he meant to or not, is endorsing them as a hip-hop group. And I think that the people today who call them not hip-hop are... I think that's tone deaf. I think that's that's yeah not giving credit to you know the generations that came before, to the people who kind of...
00:32:38
Speaker
evolved German hip hop into what it is today. I am totally pro calling the Fantastic Four hop. Okay, hey pop you hear it you heard it here first. The Fantastic Four are hip hop and yep other podcasts that exist about German rap and that don't mention them are really quite embarrassing. Yeah, truly. Yeah, yeah, because there's one actually, you can also talk about this later, there's one I checked and there's one other podcast on German hip-hop that was put out for like the 25 year anniversary of German hip-hop and it was like a one-off thing. Okay, cool. No real competition. So ah so we've got that market corner, is what you're saying.
00:33:14
Speaker
Yeah, exactly, we do. we do But yeah, yeah no, so no i I completely agree. I think they are, yeah i would say they are hip-hop and the whole, you can split hairs over these terms. And I think we will see a lot of that actually. One, they also say themselves. Smudo in his interview says, like he could call kind of call it, like in reference to what is right and what is wrong and is real hip-hop and what is not real hip-hop. He says like that people are overthinking it and that you could call it a kind of German meticulousness. of like he He references that. so
00:33:45
Speaker
And that's like something I can actually comment on because from these early these early episodes, I wasn't there. I wasn't born. sure I can't really tell you what the vibe was at the time. But I can tell you that still today, that maybe it was a bit stronger like a couple years ago, but there's still this vibe of like, this is hip-hop, this is not hip-hop. Ooh.
00:34:04
Speaker
I think much more than in the US because in the US it's just so mainstream that you kind of like, well, are we, why, why would we want to exclude people or include certain people into this term? It's not like an exclusive group, I think. don't know. Maybe you have a different opinion on that, but.
00:34:18
Speaker
Okay. I do. I feel like there's more gatekeeping in German hit hit hip hop basically about that term. And I don't, but maybe I'm wrong. I guess I'm not surprised by the fact that it's more gate kept in Germany, because as you said, in the US, it is more mainstream. And because it's more mainstream, there's a lot of like variants. And so over time, as people encounter new variants and accept the new variants, it just gets put under the umbrella term hip hop. Right.
00:34:48
Speaker
So. But in Germany where there's – and like again, I don't know what's on the radio in Germany. I don't know what is is being streamed by by young German people these days or or any German people really. ah Assuming it's maybe a little less mainstream in the US, it it doesn't surprise me because then there's a sense of like, well, what things am I listening to and do I listen to genuine hip-hop? Is the stuff that I listen to, is it legit, right? Like it doesn't get the stamp of approval.
00:35:17
Speaker
Exactly. And that and that you can you can kind of gatekeep still, but you would still call it hip-hop, I guess. that's right Right. And so, like and like, yeah, don't get me wrong. Gatekeeping happens in the U.S. Like, this whole... I mean, look, it's 2025. The Drake Kendrick beef happened in 2024.
00:35:34
Speaker
And a significant stressor that created that beef over the last 10 years um after Drake, you know, featured on Good Kid, Mad City, and and Drake and Kendrick have had sort of a strained relationship since. A significant stressor was that Kendrick doesn't really consider, based off of his work, he doesn't really consider Drake's art hip-hop. He doesn't think Drake is is legit. He doesn't think he's from, you know, that sort of culture because Drake grew up pretty wealthy exactly a Canadian in like suburbia. So like there are still debates here in the U.S. about like, okay, is Drake hip hop? Is Drake pop?
00:36:14
Speaker
um and And like even some other things like, okay, well, is trap, is is Atlanta trap? Is that hip hop or is that sort of own thing which has evolved? Yeah. The debate is here, but because it's more widespread, there's also a generally larger tolerance for calling something hip hop. So i I think you make a good point that it's it's definitely more gatecapped in Germany.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, and then to this day, I think. yeah I think at this point we have hit like popularity levels similar to hip-hop in the US, but it I think it took longer. it was As we've seen, it kind of hit the mainstream at similar times, but I think it took longer to actually become like full-on what would top the charts all the time. Sure. And even now we still have some very popular...
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, there's some direction, but I don't know much about German music, so we won't go into it. but I think yeah it's definitely different. It would be interesting down the line to do an episode on contemporary German hip hop, like this stuff that is a topic right now, because I would love to have.
00:37:13
Speaker
context to be like, okay, well, what did Germans listen to today compar to yeah compared to Americans or compared to Germans 10 years ago or so on and so forth. So that would be interesting. We'll get there. We'll get there. we Basically, we'll go through time here. that's sort of stuff Sure. cro Chronological. I like it. But we don't need to spend all our time in the ninety s There would be lots to talk about, but we can also jump back and forth a little bit. I think that's what we'll keep it right. And we will hit this golden age, which is not actually the best time for German hip-hop necessarily, but the one where I know most...
00:37:42
Speaker
the one I know most about because I grew up with it like 2010s age yeah yeah yeah maybe a bit earlier that kind of thing and then for the what people are listening to today will be news to both of us as well so we can both learn as we go along as I'm learning about the 90s stuff now right so yeah yeah So before we said kind of, we talked about the graffiti stuff and there wasn't really scene for hip hop. We get back to some direct quotes where they basically say they were not really jams or they would call it hip hop parties. So these things existed in late 80s. And they are kind of, the Smudo and the Fantastic Four by extension seem to be kind of not really interested in that and kind of disgusted by it.
00:38:27
Speaker
There's like an interesting quote where they say, yeah, I can remember a certain event in Augsburg in which ah groups that kind of were on stage where the whole program was just saying, yeah, boy, and say ho, and just ah basically were just trying to be hip-hop-like without actually having any of the credentials. i see i say they were And after that, they say they were really not interested in the scene at all. Now, there definitely was a scene, though.
00:38:59
Speaker
And that's where we go to our second group that we'll talk about today. And that's... Advanced chemistry, great which I have an English name because they also originally started performing tracks in English. Right. Although I didn't find any of them.
00:39:16
Speaker
I think they'd never actually released a damn on an album or anything like that. that but I see. It was just like, it was um mixed tapes or like unfinished projects that were worked on in English. And and so they were predominantly German speaking from the get go.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Basically. about it But Torch, which is one of the guys from my group, and you'll see him in a second, is is considered the first German rapper.
00:39:41
Speaker
And because this is where we get into the first arguments, but I think everyone kind of agrees on this. He performed German lyrics on stage before. or the Fantastischen FIA put out their first album or did their first tours. He was just doing it freestyling, basically. Right. Okay.
00:40:02
Speaker
Yeah. So inest there were basically these jams or hip-hop parties, as you can call them, all over Germany, especially in areas where there was bigger American influence. And it it's kind of like a little club and this is what you could call the first, am the beginnings of the German hip-hop scene. And then of course we get regional centers later on, but back then it was sort of like a little club apparently. Sure.
00:40:26
Speaker
And people would tour around and meet each other, um forge contact, and advanced chemistry was at the center of it and they were doing conscious rap.
00:40:37
Speaker
Mmm. And I will show you the cover for the first single where they also conveniently are depicted. So I can show you what we're talking about.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. This is 1992. And have on the left.
00:40:53
Speaker
and we have torch on the left Linguist in the back and Tony L on the right. Tony L. And yeah, and they're all half German basically or like that's what they call themselves. They sort of, they have, their parents have immigrant backgrounds. So Torch was like half Haitan and linguist half Ghana. Tony L is half Italian.
00:41:19
Speaker
So that one was, yeah. there this Tony L would never have guessed the the half Italian. Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, he he might as well be German. That's true. Italians always get the short stick, I guess.
00:41:33
Speaker
And they were in Heidelberg, which is much smaller than Stuttgart. Right. Has a big army base as well, of course. Right, exactly. Unsurprisingly. Wait, wait, sorry. So just to just to baseline again, Stuttgart is one German hip hop capital and Heidelberg is the other.
00:41:50
Speaker
In this timeline, yes, or like at this time. At this point in time. Okay, got it. At this point in time, exactly. they respectively represent West and East, right? No, they're both in the West, actually. Oh, they're both West. Okay, got it, it. We still, at this point, haven't really heard anything from the East. And we'll get to that later on.
00:42:06
Speaker
But yeah, these these are both still in the West. The East was just had just been reunified, so they had more difficult things to deal with, I guess. Ooh, wait, before we before we get back to advanced chemistry, so curious to see if...
00:42:21
Speaker
socio-political struggle in East Germany feeds into the East German hip hop scene. If that's sort of like... If we get kind of, what if we got like kind of more of the kind of crime and vibes that we get there. I do wonder what will happen. Yes, the future episodes. Yeah. Okay, sorry. Let's get back to it then. Yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yes, if only maybe the greatest probably German rapper of all time was from the East. I don't know if that could be the case. but ah We'll see. But some people would argue that Torch on the very left here is the greatest of all time. okay I think it would be a bit of a difficult argument to make because sure he has some tracks with Advanced Chemistry and his solo album from...
00:43:04
Speaker
The year 2000, which is considered a really great album. But we'll not get to that this episode. Okay. We'll maybe do our own episode on Torch at some point. But basically, we talked about before that like, yeah, socioeconomic struggles weren't really a thing in Germany or not as much.
00:43:22
Speaker
Well, kind of, but also not really. There's this little episode in in history that I had no idea about. But basically, the east when the East-West conflict ended, the Cold War ended. Right.
00:43:35
Speaker
We had a bunch of instability in Europe. The war in the Balkans ah started off. And we had a lot of asylum seekers in Germany. 1992... in ninety ninety two There were a bunch of arson attacks on basically homes for asylum seekers in Germany.
00:43:54
Speaker
Oh, I see. Right. And the movement for like extreme right parties also grew. For that, as a reaction to that, Advanced Chemistry released Fremd im eigenen Land, we will now watch next. Let's do it.
00:44:31
Speaker
Conveniently enough, this is in the same year as Dida. I see.
00:44:39
Speaker
And basically what they're saying here is like that day, but you don't have to look German to be German. Yeah. is it so Is it so weird that I speak the German language even though I don't look like a classic German? Right.
00:44:51
Speaker
No, I mean, this makes perfect sense. Like a half Haitian, half Ghanaian, and half Italian... be emigrating to germany would feel the same pressures that you know these these immigrants from the balkans would feel um and and they would feel just as under attack so you can already see just in the cinematography the way that they're choosing to utilize like imagery about passports and obviously other like people of color in the background like You can see that they're talking about something that is socially relevant.
00:45:22
Speaker
Immediately, the the contrast from the Fantastic Four being just kind of, you know, like we said, the Salt-N-Pepa, very obvious. this is This is a different strain of hip-hop off the bat.
00:45:33
Speaker
Exactly. Absolutely. And yeah, the Fantastic Four get flown out to l LA to to do their music video and they do it in there in Germany somewhere. Right, exactly. To get a bunch of people together that can like kind of move awkwardly behind the camera. That's that's about it. No, but it's good. I mean, there's something poetic about it using like ah the bridge as the background. like There's something to be said about...
00:45:56
Speaker
the imagery of a bridge and like how immigrants impact the nation coming from one place to another. Like, I don't know if that was an intentional choice or not, but yeah you can definitely tell that these guys are are socially and politically tuned into what's happening at the time. And I, I, I love this.
00:46:13
Speaker
Yeah, it took us almost an hour to get to, but this is what people consider the actual beginnings of German hip hop a lot. Got it, got it, got it. So this had a lot more impact on the scene, but not as much on the, at least for some time, on the public, I would say. And today, not many people would know this song, but...
00:46:30
Speaker
Yeah, but it had a lot a lot of impact on the scene. Yeah, I mean, this was the quote-unquote underground stuff that was legit. Exactly, yeah. yeah Yeah, and there is a fun story about this where basically this got played on the radio a lot, but only because a bunch of people called into the radio all the time apparently and requested it. Oh, interesting. This wasn't really, like, I think they had their own, i'm pretty sure they had their own label.
00:46:52
Speaker
A bunch of other people started their careers with touring with Advanced Chemistry. That's crazy! That is so cool to hear, actually. but They only had this one album. um Later on, they brought out like a best off and stuff like that. But they had this really very flash in the pan kind of moment. Except Torch, the two others basically went into other careers. I see. Linguist is in academia. Mm-hmm.
00:47:16
Speaker
I think he actually moved to the UK and is in academia now. i would I should actually check what the publications are. That would be very interesting to see his, ah his you know...
00:47:27
Speaker
writings, articles, or whatever. And Tony L has also not done anything since 2000. I see. But and in 2000, it was already kind of over for them. Their real popularity was early 90s, mid 90s. But there was also this TV show that started that was called Freestyle. And their torch was one of the people sort of on the show interviewing guests. And they even had interviews with him. Oh, he was a consistent, like he was a host, basically. He was a host, basically. And they even had interviews with US rappers and so forth.
00:47:57
Speaker
Damn, okay. There was actually an interview with NASA I watched in preparation for this. That's crazy. So it's quite funny, yeah, that there's this overlap. don't believe I didn't realize it wasn't just actual exchange happening. Right, right. Not just emulation.
00:48:11
Speaker
Yeah. But the scene was criticizing itself for being derivative of the US. Even back then? Yeah, and and kind of they were criticized by... So the there is this funny episode, and I wish i had there was any recording of this, but as far as I know, there isn't, where the Fantastic Four were interviewed on a radio show.
00:48:32
Speaker
So the the story is that they actually got call-ins from listeners about this whole... like Are they doing real hip-hop? Are they part of the scene? Right. And Torch ended up calling him, actually, to the show. And they, of course, put him on air because it was great. And Smudo said that he had actually met him at one of the jams in the 80s. Right.
00:48:55
Speaker
And Torch said he never met him. oh And never saw him at any of those jams. So truthly that was basically... That is the height of, like, escalation that you get to. That's as juiciest as it gets. that's not more There's not anything more. But it's still kind of funny.
00:49:10
Speaker
and And we can take the verse from Smudo as well about Advanced Chemistry. They said things about each other, of course. Right, right. they said, Advanced Chemistry was an outstanding group, but they often got into their own way by overthinking everything.
00:49:23
Speaker
It's a classic example of something that still runs deep in the hip-hop scene today. Pressure to always do things the right way without risking your reputation. Hmm. Then he says as well, we were the first to risk bad press by putting our artistic vision above what our friends or the audience expected from us.
00:49:43
Speaker
You know, look, I have... They can't win everything. They can't win on every front. Yeah, no, they can't. That's what I'm calling an L. I have respect for Fantastic for the fantastic Four.
00:49:55
Speaker
I think that that critique of conscious hip-hop and specifically, like, hip-hop which is willing... make commentary, political commentary. I think that same critique is like, oh, this is just too much. Like, you didn't have to try this hard. ah You know, you're not really making something fun to listen to. You're just talking about politics. It sounds like the Fantastic Four, or Studo, I guess specifically, is making that sort of same criticism back then.
00:50:26
Speaker
And i can't I can't necessarily agree with it. um yeah I think that, yeah, this is definitely an L take from the Fantastic Four. That's okay. We don't always get it right 100% of the time.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yeah, we don't. It's fine. a day yeah Feuding groups, maybe a little hip-hop feud between the two of whom is is good for business. So we'll we'll maybe chalk it up to that. Exactly, yeah. And then if you hear the other side, Torch, of course, was the one who was talking for Advanced Chemistry.
00:50:58
Speaker
on another radio interview I found, he basically said, I respect them as pop artists, but they talk about hip-hop, but I've never seen them in the scene. hu And that he would like to see them include breakdancers and graffiti artists into their like so there art and things like that. Right, right, right.
00:51:16
Speaker
The moderator of the show actually suggested, like, yeah, but they paved the way for hip-hop in Germany. And Torture's response was kind of like, yeah, but I have something to say in my tracks. Ooh.
00:51:27
Speaker
Ooh. So this is very where it sort of went. And I think for me, I mean, we are both conscious rap kind of biased. Yeah, exactly.
00:51:38
Speaker
But for me personally, like, I can listen to Advanced Chemistry a lot more than then Fantastic Four, but that's just because, you That's my kind of thing. Yeah, no, I do agree. I think that I don't, I'm not going to, you know, retract my statement from earlier and say Fantastic Four is pop for sure.
00:51:57
Speaker
But at the same time, Advanced chemistry speaks to me more on a stylistic level and in terms of being willing to, as, you know, as Torch said, have a take, like say something serious in their music that is not just for radio and entertainment. Like he is right that if you have a message in your music, I don't know, if that gives it more meaning, that gives it more weight. And I don't disagree with him, but at the same time, I'm not going to.
00:52:24
Speaker
say the Fantastic Four is just a curse to be pop forever. Yeah, and I would also say, like I can encourage everyone listening to this to like listen to some of their music. it's They have really some standout tracks, I would say, the Fantastic Four. Yeah, yeah. And Advanced Chemistry too. And I think, yeah, production-wise, the Fantastic Four are actually probably better. um ah They also had just more resources. And if you go back to those interviews, they also...
00:52:52
Speaker
They agree on one point, which basically was the same Smulder said earlier. Torch, when he was asked about hip-hop in Germany, was just like, yeah, well, Germans have fewer problems, so they have less to tell. Positive and then they end negative. So the rap is a bit thinner, he described it.
00:53:08
Speaker
Yeah, one last thing about advanced chemistry. yeah Have you ever heard of the Zulu Nation? The Zulu Nation. Okay, it was news to me as well. i was just wondering, maybe.
00:53:18
Speaker
They are basically were like a hip-hop collective in the US of African rappers, or basically people with African influences in their music. Interesting. and And like apparently huge thing in the 90s. And they existed till today, but there was some recent drama, which we don't need to get into. This is just another rabbit hole I fell into while researching this. But I just wanted to have this fun fact that Torch was appointed the German Zulu Nation King. so That's correct by the official like organization. Yes, yes, yes. Hey, man, that's got that's got to count for something. You know, just a quick Google showing me that Ice-T is a significant member of the Zulu Nation.
00:53:57
Speaker
If you're crowned the king of your respective, you know, um country... by Ice-T and his peers, then I think that gives you some so some say in hip hop. Yeah.
00:54:10
Speaker
I would say in the early 90s, mid 90s, he was seen as the goat or like the one who brought him everyone together basically. But I think there wasn't enough output back then yet to really have a goat, I guess. Yeah, yeah, I see. Not that enough competition at that point. That's so cool though. Yeah.
00:54:26
Speaker
But yeah, they definitely. And we'll hear more after watch. I actually ordered his autobiography because I cannot find it online anywhere. i love it. So yeah, so we'll maybe cover him soon.
00:54:38
Speaker
I want to show you one more thing. I wanted to show some of that, some clips from that and TV show I was alluding to earlier, which is called Freestyle and show off another MC, MC Renee, which I quoted earlier, I think.
00:54:52
Speaker
who was known as the d freestyler in in in German rap, although that clip we're going to watch was actually a pre-written song, but I just need an excuse to watch like part of a 90s show together, basically. That's it. Yeah, no, go, go, go, go.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yeah! Yeah, it's a live performance id do as well. No, I like this. I mean, this is good. This is, as you said, it's like performance oriented for sure. yeah, I just, I just, I just, I just, because I had no idea he he was, he was a thing. or He did this thing back then and he didn't have a huge career, but apparently he was like the undisputed freestyle king of Germany at the time.
00:55:43
Speaker
Interesting. You know, one of the things I'm curious about is is like the idea of rap battles specifically. we We saw in the US rap battles were popularized with, ah you know, look, I'm no old head, right? I'm ah i'm a new gen, whatever.
00:56:02
Speaker
um, silenial type. But rap battles for me, the first rapper I think of is, is like Eminem, right? He has eight mile. He's like known for like, Oh, he's like, ah you know, he battled in Detroit and blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth.
00:56:16
Speaker
Um, that's about the oldest rap battler I can think of. Classic. I think you will get maybe in trouble with some hip-hop heads. I'm sure there's someone earlier. I'm sure I'm going to get in trouble with hip-hop heads, man. am so uneducated in the grand scheme things about hip-hop heads. Oh, no, same though. We are both just new-age people. We try to piece the history together.
00:56:36
Speaker
But I'm writing my wrongs in in the German department because I thought Battle Royale in Germany only really took off later on, two thousand and ten Right. And so that's what I'm curious about is like MC Renee is being able to freestyle is obviously core in the skill set of.
00:56:56
Speaker
Yeah, there are some, there are some freestyle battles with between MC Renee and other artists. Yeah. See, there you go. And that's something that I think would be so interesting to explore and see, like, what the parallels are, whether it's an emulation of the US, whether it builds out into its own thing. And now, obviously, like, you and I have had this discussion many times, but now rap battles are pretty significant in Germany. Like, there are competitions and there are rewards and there are, you know, people who make their entire online personas just about, like,
00:57:32
Speaker
Battle rapping and being these silly, you know, characters in in these rap battles that happen annually or or every couple of months. So, yeah, I'm sure that MC Renee was like a core figure in in beginning the battle rap scene or rap battle scene in in Germany.
00:57:48
Speaker
kind of getting ahead of ourselves but it's an interesting it's an interesting topic there is a clear cut i think because they're that the rap battles that i know and the rap the battle scene sort of in german rap is really brought about by youtube right and like online rap which we will talk about because i think there's also bigger yeah i maybe a bit of a bigger divide between rappers who got popular in Germany from their online presence yeah versus being in the scene, quote unquote, than maybe in the US. I'm not sure.
00:58:24
Speaker
But yeah, so that's that's interesting. yeah But I learned as well, thanks to this little research, that battle rap has existed in Germany for much longer. But what I've seen with MC René, it was very much like no drama. Like, oh, we're really friendly with each other, but we'll kind of like...
00:58:42
Speaker
have like a little freestyle battle. Got it. yeah Okay, so it's, it yeah. Competition is it it isn't maybe emphasized as much, or not even competition per se, but like a sense of like,
00:58:55
Speaker
Jeez, hard to say. But the first this there is the first there is a first diss track. um Right, like the idea that I am better than you. exactly It's not just competition, but it's also a sense of reputation being upheld by rap battles. yeah Maybe it's not there quite yet with MC René is what I'm hearing you. not really, not really.
00:59:17
Speaker
Yeah, got it. Also, he's very cute in his interviews. He just seems like a really friendly guy. I'm not sure if I made this up the right word, but he seems like a very sweet guy. I mean, look at him.
00:59:27
Speaker
ah Yeah. yeah aya He's got a little smirk on. that's great Yeah, exactly, yeah. I know, he just seems like a friendly dude. He was just vibing.
00:59:38
Speaker
And he never really wanted a huge career, I think. Right, right. Very cool, man. Yeah, so yeah, no it's this it's it's fun. So that's sort of the scene. and I've got loads of fake nostalgia when researching this, because obviously I wasn't around before. Oh damn, it would have been fun to be at those jams. Yeah, exactly. And to see him on stage. like There's also, I can recommend, I'll put it in the show notes, I can recommend watching a clip where he was basically on TV performing one of his tracks because of course mainstream was kind of picking it up.
01:00:10
Speaker
um and And there's a pan to the audience and it's like the classic TV audience where everyone's sitting there and they're all just looking at him. It's very funny. Not exactly the same...
01:00:22
Speaker
The same vibe you'd be getting in like, you know, a hip hop club or whatever with the GIs. whatever it's I'm sure like losing their minds. exactly The TV audience sitting politely in their chairs has to be yeah a downer on the energy in the room. I think so, yeah.
01:00:36
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that's where we'll call it for today. Yeah. there go Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we both learned something. And we'll see what what topic we have next time. Maybe we'll go into the first, this track.
01:00:50
Speaker
Ooh. Lots of good places to go from here. We could know that we could go to East Germany and and talk about the hip-hop there. you know i I know you said it was a couple years later, maybe it evolved into something more crime or socioeconomic yeah associated, as we talked about. We could go into the first rap battles.
01:01:08
Speaker
we could go into, you know, who is the spiritual successor to Torch or, you know, um advanced chemistry, I think. Yeah. you know We'll just do all of it. All of it. oh Why not? We'll just cover all of history in this very niche topic, which is still a massive ask. Everything you just mentioned will just be season one, we'll call it that, and then we'll go from there. That's that's enough topics to go.
01:01:33
Speaker
Okay, well then, until next time. Until next time.