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Hilary Sondik – Key RCM Reports to Track in 2024
86 Plays1 year ago
Hilary Sondik is the Executive Vice President of Operations at Surgical Notes, and today we are doing a deep dive into the key revenue cycle management (RCM) reports that every ASC should be tracking in 2024. We’ll break it down by frequency, so we’ll lay out what reports you should be running daily, weekly, monthly, and annually, and then Hilary will spend some time sharing the positive impacts you’ll see on your revenue cycle by doing so.
Instead of our usual News Recap, we have a brand-new segment in the podcast today called Data & Insights! Moving forward, we will alternate weekly between sharing the news and sharing a new piece of data and why that data matters. In September, HST released a State of the Industry Report with so many insights & data points & KPIs, so we thought this would be a great way to break down those key pieces of data and share them in bite-sized chunks. So today, we’ll kick off this first segment by diving into the Average Pre-Authorization Rates we’re seeing so you can see how you compare to your peers.
Resources Mentioned:
- Next-Generation ASC Analytics in Action
- HST’s State of the Industry Report (jump to Patient Journey: Pre-Day of Service!)
Brought to you by HST Pathways.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Podcast Format
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to This Week in Surgery Centers. If you're in the ASC industry, then you're in the right place. Every week, we'll start the episode off by sharing an interesting conversation we had with our featured guest, and then we'll close the episode by recapping the latest news impacting surgery centers. We're excited to share with you what we have, so let's get started and see what the industry's been up to.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Here's what you can expect on today's episode.
Key RCM Reports for ASCs: 2024 Insights
00:00:32
Speaker
Hillary Sondik is the executive vice president of operations at Surgical Notes. And I'm so excited to have her on this week's episode to talk through the key RCM reports that every ASC should be tracking in 2024.
00:00:45
Speaker
We'll break it down by frequency, so we'll lay out what reports you should be running daily, weekly, monthly, and annually, and then Hillary will spend some time sharing the positive impacts you'll see on your revenue cycle by doing so.
New Segment: Data and Insights
00:00:59
Speaker
Now, normally, I would switch gears to tell you what you could expect in this week's news recap, but breaking news, we have a brand new segment in the podcast today called Data and Insights.
HST Industry Report: Pre-Authorization Rates
00:01:12
Speaker
Moving forward, we will alternate weekly between sharing the news and sharing a new piece of data and why that data matters. In September, HST released a state of the industry report that had so many insights and data points and KPIs. So we thought this would be a great way to break those down and share them with you in bite-sized chunks.
00:01:33
Speaker
So today we'll be kicking off this first segment by diving into the average pre-authorization rates we're seeing so you can see how you compare to your peers. Hope everyone enjoys the episode and here's what's going on this week in Surgery Centers.
Hilary Sondik's Background and Role
00:01:51
Speaker
Hi, Hilary. Welcome to the podcast. Hi. Thank you. I'm excited to be here today. Can you please share a little bit more about yourself and your healthcare experience?
00:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Hilary Sandek and I've been in the healthcare revenue cycle field for over 20 years. Started out actually in the healthcare legal field and moved into operations of revenue cycle. Been in all aspects, front, middle, back, on the hospital side, and most recently, certainly on the ASC side specifically, and been both a vendor and in-house. So I have a variety of perspectives, if you will.
00:02:27
Speaker
Good. That always helps.
ASC Analytics: Filling Revenue Cycle Gaps
00:02:30
Speaker
So Surgical Notes recently released a report on Next Generation ASC Analytics in Action, which I'm excited to dive into with you today. What was the inspiration behind this report? So I think a couple different things. Certainly, we as a company have spent a lot of our time and resources developing our own analytics, right? And so both to drive our workflow and to help
00:02:55
Speaker
monitor and track performance of our clients and help them in turn make business decisions. And so I think it's seeing what we created, but then on the flip side, as we've onboarded new clients, really seeing a gap in this and seeing that centers often don't have
00:03:14
Speaker
robust or even some minimal kind of metrics around their revenue cycle, understandably so, right? And ASC has a lot to focus on just working on their clinical operations. And so I think it was the flip side of just what else we can share with centers around why it's important to track your performance and how you can do that. So I'm excited to be able to dive a little deeper into what we focus on and how maybe
00:03:43
Speaker
looking at this can help a center make decisions. Yeah, I think that's great. It's one of the questions we get all the time as well is what reports come standard, but then also what other reports should I be running and how often and where do I start?
Daily Metrics for Surgery Centers
00:03:58
Speaker
Well, and I think the center is often looking at a lot of reporting already, right? They're looking at their case mix. They're trying to understand their staffing. And so reports in general are not something that would be foreign to them. But I think really focusing in when we're talking about reporting on revenue cycle, right? On your daily cash, on your charges, your billed, your unbuilt, all these things, it can become very overwhelming. And there are a lot of parts to it.
00:04:26
Speaker
And so then it becomes an issue of, well, who can do that here? Who has that expertise? Who has the resources to spend? And so it's understandable why sometimes that often doesn't happen, right? Again, I go back to a lot of what is the bread and butter of a center and it's their
00:04:42
Speaker
focusing on their operations, which is their clinical care as it should be. So again, hopefully looking at some of this will be helpful. And so before you get to that end game of like what KPI should we be monitoring? I like to start back at the beginning of like on a daily basis, what could and should we be looking at to ensure that we've got our finger in the pulse? And so when I think of daily metrics, right? How do we know day in and day out we're doing what we should be doing?
00:05:11
Speaker
Well, number one is, are you looking at your schedule? And when you're looking at your schedule, it's not just about who's coming in and what time and having the OR rooms prepped. Certainly that's a piece of it, but it's who's scheduled. Are the benefits verified? Are they off in place? And of those, who is maybe not coming, right? Who canceled? And understanding
Preventing Resource Waste from Cancellations
00:05:32
Speaker
of your whole group. Let's say you're supposed to have 50 visits today. Oh, but you're actually only have 30 that showed up. Why is that? Right? And are there things in that you can learn from a business perspective to help you? And so again, I say that's a daily reconciliation of what did we scheduled and who canceled and why? And often we find some of the reasons for the cancellations could have been prevented.
00:05:56
Speaker
And that's what we're looking for, right? How do you use these metrics and what you're looking at to help your business? And so if you don't have canceled cases, then you haven't spent resources and time and opened up supplies and have rooms prepped when you don't need to.
00:06:11
Speaker
So it's something that can be simple and you can create a process to do, but you do have to do that kind of on a daily basis. Same thing with then at the end of the day, did you get all your charges in? So everything you did do, are you going to be able to charge for it and make sure you have those charges on that account, right? So that when it goes out, it's going to be coded and built. So again, these sound like pretty simple things, but you would be surprised at
00:06:37
Speaker
just things that get overlooked right in the course of a day. And so I think if you were to make a stop chart for yourself on a daily basis, it would be scheduled.
00:06:46
Speaker
daily charges and then daily banking, right? Making sure you're pulling in your daily cash and reconciling that to ensure, hey, yeah, this is what got deposited in my bank today and these are the remits we have to post against it. What's missing? You know, again, it's filling in those blanks of what happens every day, but what are we missing from the day that we should have had is the easiest way I can explain it.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that makes a ton of sense. Starting the day with the schedule and ending with the charges and claims, I think that makes perfect sense. I love the way you guys have also broken this out by frequency because I think that makes it a very straightforward checklist where people can go through and say, okay, every day I'm doing this, every week I'm doing this. It just builds
Weekly Billing and AR Reconciliations
00:07:31
Speaker
on each other. If you're doing that every day, then come at the end of the week.
00:07:34
Speaker
When you're reconciling your bank statement for that week, it's pretty easy because you've already done the legwork of finding the missing remits from Wednesday and Thursday, right? And so I think those are helpful tools. Yeah. And no, no pit when you start running that weekly report of, I don't know what I'm going to find because you've been monitoring it every day. Right. Monitoring it. Exactly.
00:07:58
Speaker
And then when you start talking about weekly, there's some other ones we'd add in, right? So maybe you, every, every day you're not looking at your billing reconciliation, but for the week you're looking, okay, for the volumes of this week, what bills did I submit at the end of the week, right? Which ones, what got submitted, what reject it when I submit it, like didn't go through, weren't accepted. Why is that? How can we fix that? Right? Cause the idea is the cleaner the process, the quicker the cash comes in.
00:08:27
Speaker
So tracking your volumes of bills submitted, number of rejections that we consider that like a weekly billing reconciliation. So I think that's a key. If we move from daily to weekly, that's a key weekly reconciliation to do along with your weekly banking, which again builds from that daily you're doing. So that really shouldn't be that time consuming. And then moving on to your weekly reporting for your AR. And this is really a combination of
00:08:56
Speaker
How are you managing the team that's working your AR? Maybe it's one person, maybe it's three, but the important piece is an AR, your accounts receivable is something that you do have to have your finger on the pulse. And since it's typically people that are making the calls to insurance that are working on accounts to say, okay, why didn't this get paid? Why is this hung up? What documents is the insurance company asking for on this one?
00:09:22
Speaker
You really need to know what that staff is doing on a daily basis and have some type of workflow that you're directing them on. And so when we talk about weekly reporting on the AR, it's definitely looking at your accounts, but it's also the people doing it. So productivity, right? Like what is the workflow that they're going to be doing? So, you know, again,
00:09:42
Speaker
Every week, what accounts are getting touched and worked on to drive cash into your center versus what should be worked on the next week and so forth. So that's a little bit more of a people and a process measurement as opposed to just measuring the outcomes. But I think that's a really key piece. And again, I say whether you have one person or a team that are working the AR, it's important that you measure their work product and have guide rails for their productivity. So at the end of the month, success in your AR.
00:10:14
Speaker
Sure. And you've mentioned people who ideally should be managing this or looking at these reports. Yeah. And that's a great question because I do realize all centers are not the same. We always talk about how every new center we get, it's all unique, right? And a lot of that goes to the size. And so can you put somebody who is what we would call like a business office manager overseeing your business office? That's your schedule, your front end, your eligibility, your
00:10:44
Speaker
banking and your cash collections as well as your AR follow-up. And for those centers that can, that's huge. And then that's the person that would be the key person. I would say that would be overseeing all of these reporting requirements. Right. But sometimes centers are smaller and they've got a jack of all trade trying to check people in and then in between call insurance. And that's what it does get more challenging. And, and I understand that I would say the person who is responsible for communicating to the administrator.
00:11:13
Speaker
around these specific revenue cycle functions is really who should be watching this. And it's the administrator then who should be saying, okay, every day I should get this data. Every day I get how many patients we had scheduled, how many showed up. Every week I'm going to see how many bills we submitted, how many rejects we got, and so forth. So I think, again, those are just some guide rails to think about.
00:11:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's helpful. And of course, cross-training too. We're always trying to promote that. Yes, there might be one person who does it all usually, but in case that person wins the lottery, we need a backup. Got to have a backup plan, right? Always have to have a backup plan. Yes. All right, let's switch to- And with that, who's documenting your processes.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yes, that's an excellent point as well. Let's switch to monthly.
Monthly and Quarterly Financial Reviews
00:12:02
Speaker
What are we running on a monthly? You could blend quarterly in with that as well if it makes sense. Yeah, so I think monthly, some of it's similar, right? You want to see all your payments for the month. You want to see also all the claims you submitted, so all the bills for the month, your total case volume for the month. But when we start talking about monthly, you also want to understand all those payments you got,
00:12:26
Speaker
what adjustments did you have to take? And these could be contractual adjustments, these could be other, maybe you have self-paid discount policy you provide, but what adjustments? Because that should be something that again, month over month, you should be seeing steady. And if you have an uptick or a downtick, that would be a cause to say, I wonder what's happening? What's driving this increase or decrease?
00:12:47
Speaker
And that's really the key with whatever you're measuring monthly is that you develop this month over month view, right? Because that's how you're going to understand your center's performance and really get insight into what is happening. Do you have seasonality in your visits or in your payments? Do you have different docs doing different types of procedures at different times of the year? Or again, monitoring your docs, PTO requests.
00:13:14
Speaker
You'd be surprised that once you start putting these metrics week over week, month over month, and then eventually year over year, what you can learn from it and then how you can really leverage your operations to address things that you could have control over that maybe you previously didn't think you did because you actually just didn't know what was happening, right? Because you weren't looking at that data.
00:13:36
Speaker
Some other key things when we start looking at it month over month and as on the monthly basis is you want to be able to see your total AR balance, right? So compare, is that going up or down? Are you actually collecting or does it just keep growing and unfortunately aging, which is never a good thing, right? So knowing what your total AR balance is at the end of the month is definitely a key. As well as looking at your AR by financial class, seeing, are you seeing a growth in a certain payer?
00:14:05
Speaker
Or unfortunately, are you seeing a growth in self-pay? And why is that? And again, how might you be able to address that? That's something that is really important. Because again, depending on the contracts you may or may not have, it's going to drive a lot of how you're getting reimbursed. And that's something you need to know and understand. And then from there, you could actually take and say, OK, so what are my AR days? What is my monthly cash? Should we start setting up?
00:14:35
Speaker
KPIs, right, to like teach our staff to say, okay, we want to try to drive. We're, we've been collecting over, let's say the last six months, an average of 300,000. And so we certainly don't want to go below that. But what if we set a metric to say like, let's target getting to 350, how are we going to get that $50,000 extra, right? Is that something that's sitting out on our AR that we could just work to drive in? Is that meaning we've got to add more case volumes? And can we do that? And how many could we add?
00:15:03
Speaker
it starts to open up a lot of questions and thoughts of like, again, how to manage your business and how to drive more revenue into your center. And so for me, I think even if you just picked a few metrics, it's like establishing those and being diligent of doing those, like I said, daily, weekly, monthly, and then month over month, because it's once you start developing that pattern, that's going to give you the insight that we're looking for.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yep, that makes sense. And what about quarterly? What should we be doing quarterly? So I think the month over month is still something you're looking at quarterly. But then I think as a quarterly, you're adding in even more things. You're looking at what was your bad debt. Month over month, maybe it's not sticking out as much. But once you look at it quarterly, and you're starting to say, well, wait a minute. If we want to finish the year strong,
00:15:58
Speaker
We've got to really tackle this denial issue because we cannot continue to have this drive up our bad debt reserves or our denial rate. We see it's climbing. Sometimes in a single month, it may not stand out, but when you see it month over month, it's for a quarter or for two quarters, it's like, okay, this is not going away. In fact, it's growing. Maybe it's only growing slightly, but the growth, we can't sustain if it continues to do this for
00:16:24
Speaker
another quarter. So again, it's like I said, it's bad debt. It's looking at payments over 90. So your aged accounts out there, how much of that are you driving in? Again, it's a way to set a goal and say, Hey, we want to attack this aging AR. We want to get this money in and looking at that and figuring out ways to improve upon that. So I think while all of them are ripe for that, it's really looking at the ones that take more time to effectuate change that you want to be able to make sure
00:16:54
Speaker
Slight increases don't look so bad, but when you look at them over a quarter, they can be significant.
Improving Clean Claim Rates
00:17:00
Speaker
Another piece of this is also, not to forget in your billing world, we're talking a lot about AR, but is your clean claim rate, right? Like again, if we want to get claims going out to get cash in, the cleaner the claim that's going out. So that goes back, like I was saying, you're looking at your weekly build, what rejects are there, and then building on that. But if you build up your clean claim rate quarter over quarter, you may see
00:17:22
Speaker
Hey, we get a lot of rejects the first quarter of the year. Well, maybe we're not doing a good job checking, verifying benefits because people's insurance tends to change. Did we just assume because they had been here the last week of December, we're like, Oh, we don't need to check this again. Policies or practices you have that maybe you'd want to change because of what the data is telling you. So, you know, a lot of this, I think it can be overwhelming if you're like thinking of all these things I'm rattling off. But like I said, if you really pick a few key things.
00:17:52
Speaker
and focus in on them and work on those until you see some success and then maybe add in others. I think that's important as well, not to try to
00:18:01
Speaker
to take the whole animal and have 15 different things you're looking at, right? Focus in on maybe your top five. And again, I could say those would be your measuring your total AR balance, your total cash, knowing by financial class where your AR is, what your monthly payments are and your adjustments, and keeping it simple. And then after you have two quarters of that, adding in maybe some more if it feels overwhelming.
00:18:26
Speaker
Because the worst thing you want to do is just capture data, but not be able to act on it. Then it's just, you have it, but nothing's happening with it. It's not being helpful.
00:18:35
Speaker
So I think that's important too, to not overwhelm yourself. Totally. And I think, because obviously we try to use data in a different way, but all the time when every facet of our lives, or at least work lives, and it can be something that's a little intimidating to start with. But once you get the ball rolling, it's such a relief to actually have the data to rely on.
00:18:57
Speaker
If someone in the governing body or board or doctor comes to you and they're like, why is X, Y, and Z happening? To know you can actually turn to your data and reports to find the answer is very calming and very helpful. So I think all of that is really great advice. I think some people also tend to think, oh, I've got to have some big fancy system, right? Or I have to have something.
00:19:23
Speaker
If you just look at your patient accounting system, the one you're using, often the data you have in there, not only do they have some basic reporting that can help you with this, but you can extract a lot into Excel to manipulate and take it from there. So I don't want people to also think, oh, we have to go and invest a lot of capital in some type of analytics system. You can
00:19:45
Speaker
start with typically what you have in your fingertips and move it on from there if you know what you want to look at and what you want to focus on. Great advice.
Annual Reviews for Future Planning
00:19:57
Speaker
All right, this feels pertinent considering we're nearing the end of the year, but what reports should our admins run on an annual basis?
00:20:07
Speaker
yeah so I think again, you would continue to build on all the ones we've talked about I think. When we talk about year end we're really talking about okay we're closing out the year we're going to start a new one, what are the changes we anticipate a lot of times the big lifts here come to.
00:20:23
Speaker
pricing come to your charge master, right? And so you really want to be focusing in on, are you tracking any, the last time you did your pricing updates, you really should be looking at doing those kind of once a year and maybe there's certain new procedure that you're thinking of doing. You want to make sure you have those, right?
00:20:42
Speaker
Also, you could do running year end reports to see how some of your highest volume procedures have been performing and been reimbursed and understanding, okay, is this a profitable business line for us? Could it be more profitable? And again, these are just ideas and things to look at.
00:21:01
Speaker
These are areas that we often overlook because we think, oh, we're doing this procedure. We've got these docs. We get paid for them. Great. What's new? What's different? But sometimes it's just exactly what you're doing. Are you leveraging as much as you can from it? Often we see clients that haven't renegotiated their contracts in a number of years with payers, even though
00:21:23
Speaker
things have changed, circumstances have changed. So that's another piece is knowing what contracts you do have in place, when they were created, what were the terms of those and saying maybe it's time in this new year that we open this up and revisit a few of these things because maybe now we have a different docs, different machines. There are so many different things that can come into play. And so
00:21:46
Speaker
I really feel strongly that year end should be focused on contracts review, annually charge master review, pricing. And again, by tracking these metrics, you'll be able to understand how you're doing in these different procedures and how you're being reimbursed.
00:22:03
Speaker
And so that's, I think, when we start comparing. Lastly, I think it's just once you track these monthly that we're talking about monthly quarterly, you then have that for the year and so it's continuing to do that so you have a year over year baseline right, and you can actually set goals to say okay, this is how we did this year.
00:22:22
Speaker
Our percent of AR that's been over 90, we want to reduce that in the next coming year. What plans can we put in place to do that? Or we know we're not going to hit this cash goal. Our pricing changed. We no longer get paid for this service. We're going to have to eat that, et cetera. All right, so where can we make that up? Or how are we going to make that up? Or what are we going to do differently? I think it can be a very good exercise for centers to take their month over month data
00:22:51
Speaker
after a year and really try to use it to say, how are we going to budget and plan for the upcoming year? Sure. I know that was a lot. No, it's all
Tracking Data for Revenue Insights
00:23:03
Speaker
good. So let's say they start small, but everyone's ramping up. By doing all of the above, what benefits will this have to your revenue cycle management performance?
00:23:15
Speaker
So again, I think the biggest thing is if you don't measure something, we've all heard this, like how do you know how you're doing, right? If you're not able to measure it. So by measuring it, you know where your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, where are your opportunities.
00:23:30
Speaker
to gain more cash to make more revenue that only gives you more opportunity to reinvest in your Center right to buy the next machine you want or whatnot. And so, again, I think it's. The power of data and having it is that you can make decisions based on data and not just based on.
00:23:49
Speaker
what you think, what you feel, but it's going to demonstrate to you how you've actually performed over the year and what's working, what's not, and where those opportunities are. So I think that is the biggest weapon you can have in your toolbox in terms of making business decisions for your center is to have your revenue cycle data measured over time.
00:24:12
Speaker
Perfect. All right, Hilary. Last question. We do this every week with our guests.
Optimizing Supply Costs
00:24:17
Speaker
What is one thing our listeners can do this week to improve their surgery centers? So I think one thing we haven't talked about that I'm also a big believer in is looking at your supply costs. And typically we have modules that can do this for us. So you've bought HST. It has an implant inventory module, for example.
00:24:40
Speaker
you can measure and have sight line into what you paid for an implant, what you were able to charge for, what you got reimbursed. I think looking at something like that, if you're not already doing that, will open up a lot of insights to you to determine, again, are you using the most cost-effective type of implant or supply?
00:25:02
Speaker
And that's key because that can really determine maybe there's something else you could use that's different. There's a lot that goes into this. I understand with physician preferences and whatnot, but I think it's very important. I've seen a lot of centers be able to make a lot of great progress, being able to track what they paid for, what they got reimbursed, and understanding that Delta if there is one. So I'll leave you with that. That is great advice. Thank you so much for coming on, Hilary. We appreciate it. Thank you. This has been fun.
Debut of Data and Insights Segment
00:25:35
Speaker
Welcome to Data and Insights, where numbers tell the story and we decode the message. Now, this is a brand new segment, so if you absolutely hate that intro, which I think I kind of do, now is the time to tell me. I have some other options up my sleeve that I'll be trying out over the next few episodes, but I really would love your feedback. Is there a better way to intro this segment? I need to know before I get too committed.
00:26:03
Speaker
Anyway, HSC Pathways released a state of the industry report this year highlighting best practices, KPIs, and key process steps for every step of the patient journey and nearly every recurring administrative duty as well.
00:26:20
Speaker
Most importantly, though, using our own unique data set from our clients, we were able to extract data points so that anyone in the industry could compare themselves to their peers. To disclaimers, we only pulled data from clients who gave us permission and we omitted any extreme outliers. So after analyzing data from over 450 ASCs across the country, we were able to determine that on average 46% of cases
00:26:50
Speaker
have gone through the insurance pre-authorization process. Now, the exact percentage of surgical cases in the US that require pre-auth is not available. However, we can't understand the overall landscape of the pre-authorization world, which will help add color to the somewhat high-level stat. In the context of Medicare, 99% of enrollees in 2022 were in plans that require
00:27:20
Speaker
pre-authorization for some services, which could include surgeries and likely does. So this is a bit of a generalized assumption here, but considering that on average, only 46% of cases have gone through the insurance pre-auth process, but 99% of Medicare patients have some level of pre-auth requirement, it's likely safe to assume that a portion of surgeries were performed without the necessary green light
00:27:49
Speaker
Or the correct data just wasn't input into the system. Obtaining pre-auth when it's needed ensures that you will be reimbursed for your services. It helps prevent claim denials, keep patient satisfaction high, and avoid any cash flow interruptions. But as you all know, the process is no joke. It's cumbersome and a paperwork nightmare.
00:28:14
Speaker
And so I highly suggest investing in good technology to make this process as simple as possible for you. Now, I would be remiss if I also didn't mention all the hoopla that's around pre-auth right now, just because it is such a burdensome process.
00:28:32
Speaker
Many ASC leaders say pre-authorization is one of the biggest issues in the industry. 94% of physicians report experiencing care delays due to pre-auth requirements, and 33% have seen pre-auth lead to serious adverse events for patients.
00:28:51
Speaker
So it is likely that the whole pre-auth process will look very different, say, five years from now. But until changes are made, it's critical that you have a seamless workflow in place and get that pre-auth on any cases that require it so that your cash flow remains uninterrupted.
00:29:10
Speaker
So if you track this metric at your ASC, I hope this gives you some context as to how you might be performing and what other ASCs are experiencing as well. And if you're interested in more data points and use cases, subscribe to the podcast so that you don't miss any upcoming data and insight segments, or you can head to our website to check out the full State of the Industry report to get your hands on even more data at hscpathways.com.
00:29:36
Speaker
And that officially wraps up this week's podcast. Thank you as always for spending a few minutes of your week with us. Make sure to subscribe or leave a review on whichever platform you're listening from. I hope you have a great day and we will see you again next week.