Fall Special! Part 1: Uncharismatic Species

The overlooked, forgotten, and culturally dismissed animals, plants, and microbes that have shaped human history in ways we rarely notice. We explore how charisma (or its absence) is culturally constructed. The species we ignore are often the most historically consequential — and that our blind spots put them at risk of disappearing without ever being noticed.

Guest Bios:

Upcoming

Book Recommendations:

Upcoming

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

155. What have shipworms done for me lately? Or Uncharisma and The Politics of Attention with Historians, Harry Croft and Kate Stevens (Fall Special part 1)

Episode 8 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation- Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/zmgaNsWycLw]

Drawing on his experience working both inside zoos and as a policy advocate, Chris argues that while captivity may have a limited role in species recovery, modern zoos often fall short of their conservation promises and raise profound questions about what animals need to truly thrive.

Guest Bio: Chris is captivity research and policy manager at the Born Free Foundation. He has over 10 years of experience in captive animal-related fields with previous roles including zoos and other captive animal establishments before joining Born Free over five years ago. Chris has expertise in the welfare of wild animals kept in zoos and as pets, as well as related topics including behaviour, conservation and legislation relating to the captive keeping of wild animals. He leads and oversees the production of evidence-based reports, publications, and recommendations that inform and influence policy, practice, and public opinion on the issues affecting captive wild animals. The reports and academic publications have been featured in scientific journals, presented at conferences, including the Oxford Centre for Animals Ethics’ 2025 Summer School, and featured in various forms of media.Chris also regularly represents Born Free within stakeholder working groups, government consultations and various interview formats.

Book Recommendations: The Hidden Life of Trees [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28256439?ref=s_s] by Peter Wohlleben [https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/4110912.Peter_Wohlleben]

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

154. Are Zoos Really Helping? With Chris Lewis from Born Free Foundation

Episode 7/8 of Series 16 : The Captivity Conversation - Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/1D6Rv3pQUmb]

Maddy describes multispecies design as moving beyond human-centered design to consider how products, systems, and services affect non-human lives. We discuss sanctuaries as “safe bubbles” and the idea of “captive freedom,” parallels to children’s constrained freedom. Maddy explains her methods combining sensory/visual ethnography with speculative design and storytelling, including a role-playing card-based workshop imagining post-farming futures and power, hierarchy, and captivity across humans, animals, and land.

Guest Bio: Madelena Mañetto Quick is a design innovation lecturer specifically centring multispecies design and design justice. Since working on and completing her Masters project, a design and culture exploration of a pig farm in Aotearoa New Zealand, she has been focused on understanding the worlds we build with farmed animals. Madi’s research has subsequently explored interspecies relationships within farms and farm animal sanctuaries and the stories surrounding them. As a creative design researcher, Madi adopts a multidisciplinary approach, entangling multispecies ethnography, narrative studies, and speculative design. Her work aims to challenge dominant assumptions, reimagine human-animal relationships, and envision radical, hopeful futures through critical design and storytelling.

Book Recommendations:

Cheek by Jowl [https://www.ursulakleguin.com/cheek-by-jowl] by Ursula K. Leguin- Cheek by Jowl is a collection of talks and essays on how and why fantasy matters.

Norsecer of the Valley of the Wind [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nausica%C3%A4-Valley-Wind-Box-Set/dp/1421550644] by Hayao Miyazaki [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hayao-Miyazaki/e/B000APST3K/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1]

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

153. World Building with Animals: Madelena Mañetto Quick on Multispecies narratives

Episode 6 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation- Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/UGESRS1KcDf]

Dogs live under profound human control and their wellbeing depends on how we understand their agency, sensory world, and autonomy. This conversation asks us to observe our dogs like ethologists — with curiosity rather than correction — and to rethink what ethical care looks like when the captive animal is living right beside us.

Guest Bio: Jessica Pierce [https://www.jessicapierce.net/] https://www.jessicapierce.net/is a bioethicist and writer whose work explores how humans might live more attentively and responsibly alongside other animals. She is the author of fourteen books on animal ethics, environmental philosophy, and human–animal relationships, including Who’s a Good Dog? And How to Be a Better Human [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/W/bo277304592.html] and Dogpedia: A Brief Compendium of Canine Curiosities. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, The Guardian, TIME, and Scientific American. Pierce is a faculty affiliate at the Center for Bioethics and Humanities at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical School [https://medschool.cuanschutz.edu/], and she lives in the Colorado Rockies, where her thinking is shaped by daily encounters with dogs, wildlife, and the more‑than‑human world.

Book Recommendations: The Sound of a Wild Snail Eating [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Wild-Snail-Eating/dp/161620642X] by Elisabeth Tova Bailey [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elisabeth-Tova-Bailey/e/B002Y2CTC4/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1]

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

152. Captivity at Home: Jessica Pierce on Dogs and Moral Responsibility

Episode 5 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation- Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/Yvx8WJ6xR7c]

Victoria Stilwell joins me to talk about how we shape dogs’ lives through training, communication, and the choices that determine whether they feel safe, understood, and able to express themselves. Our conversation looks closely at the the limits of control, and what it really means to build a relationship that supports their agency rather than restricts it.

Guest Bios: Victoria Stilwell is a globally recognised dog behaviour expert whose work in humane, evidence‑based training reaches audiences in over 200 countries through It’s Me or the Dog and her ongoing role as training consultant for Channel 4’s The Dog Academy [https://www.channel4.com/programmes/bad-dog-academy]. She is the founder of Positively.com [https://positively.com/], CEO of the VSPDT trainer network [https://vspdt.com/], and President of the Victoria Stilwell Academy [https://www.vsdogtrainingacademy.com/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23846664843&gbraid=0AAAAADcStSmG6-lOrbYTF4wF0ztsyNZYi&gclid=CjwKCAjwtKrUBhAhEiwAr77ZoqSmPzXdRvg_PaBddr60wZ0SMg8aaKsPziUOwYMseXj7Z5Eq-ih8pRoCLQsQAvD_BwE], a leading institution for positive‑reinforcement dog‑training education. Stilwell is also the author of five bestselling books and a frequent contributor to major TV, radio, and media outlets worldwide.

Book Recommendations: Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inside-Dog-What-Dogs-Smell/dp/1398557366/ref=asc_df_1398557366?mcid=8d92e9efb84a315d8c6552dda8bb246b&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=754560406924&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16002695828617704670&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9190117&hvtargid=pla-2439835415460&psc=1&hvocijid=16002695828617704670-1398557366-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1] by Alexandra Horowitz

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

151. Let Your Dog Choose with Victoria Stilwell on Agency, Stress, and Home Environments (S16)

Episode 5 looks outward: how to apply the psychology of eating animals, behaviour‑change research, and cross‑disciplinary insights to build a more effective, culturally aware, globally relevant animal‑advocacy movement. The episode argues that progress depends on meeting people where they are, adapting strategies to context, and designing interventions that make pro‑animal behaviour easy, normal, and socially supported.

This Episode Features:

Jared Piazza — co-founder of The Fair Society researching how children and adolescents come to understand (and morally judge) the origins of animal products.

Ondine Sherman — author and co-founder of animal advocacy organization Voiceless, focused on how and when to talk to children about animal ethics.

Chris Hopwood — co-founder of The Fair Society and personality psychologist exploring how honesty with kids about eating animals compares to how we talk to adults.

Katja Liebal — leader of the Children in Nature project, studying how cultural and environmental factors shape children's relationships with animals across 18 countries.

Antonia Gefahrt — social scientist researching how people respond to vegan advocacy and how autonomy threat drives defensive reactions.

Related Links:

 * PHAIR Society [https://phairsociety.org/] A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.
 * For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.com [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com]


Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

150. Building the Future of Animal Advocacy: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference

Episode 4 examines the tension and opportunity where animal-advocacy goals and research on the psychology of eating animals overlap, drawing on conversations from the PHAIR conference. Researchers and advocates discuss credibility, bias, conflicts of interest, and “epistemic pollution” in a climate of distrust, including how carnism can be treated as invisible ideology and how advocacy incentives may shape interpretation of findings. The episode also highlights a mismatch in urgency—advocates want rapid change while science moves slowly—and the need to make research accessible, relevant, and collaborative so it can be used off the page.

This episode features:

Joshua Rottman — Associate professor of psychology. Studies moral reasoning, human–animal relations, and how people reconcile beliefs about harm with everyday behaviour.

Tobias Leenaert — Author and strategist focused on pragmatic, evidence‑based advocacy. Known for promoting incremental change, cultural sensitivity, and long‑term movement strategy.

Brooke Haggerty — Executive Director of Faunalytics. Works at the intersection of research and advocacy, helping organisations use data to design more effective interventions and understand public attitudes toward animals.

Jared Piazza — Senior lecturer in social psychology. Researches moral judgement, meat consumption, and the psychological mechanisms people use to justify animal use.

Ondine Sherman — Author and co‑founder of Voiceless. Works on compassionate education, narrative change, and the emotional dimensions of advocacy.

Sue O’Neill — Crisis‑support practitioner and applied researcher. Brings frontline insight into how people make decisions under pressure and how advocacy organisations can better support them.

Matthew Ruby — Psychologist and researcher whose work explores moral cognition, food choices, and the psychology of eating animals. Studies how cultural norms and identity shape dietary behaviour and openness to change.

Chris Hopwood — Professor of psychology specialising in personality and interpersonal behaviour. Examines how people navigate moral conflict, identity, and the tensions between caring about animals and everyday habits.

Related Links:

 * PHAIR Society [https://phairsociety.org/] A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.
 * For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.com [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com]


Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

149. The Science/Advocacy Tension: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference 4/5

Episode 3 shifts from frustration to forward motion. This episode looks at the strategies that genuinely help people change — not the ones we wish worked, but the ones supported by evidence. Researchers and advocates unpack how small, well‑designed interventions can reshape habits, reduce defensiveness, and make compassionate choices easier. The episode traces what works, why it works, and how advocates can use these insights to create change that lasts.

This episode features:

Brooke Haggerty — Executive Director of Faunalytics. Works at the intersection of research and advocacy, helping organisations use data to design more effective interventions and understand public attitudes toward animals.

Matthew Ruby — Psychologist and researcher whose work explores moral cognition, food choices, and the psychology of eating animals. Studies how cultural norms and identity shape dietary behaviour and openness to change.

Tobias Leenaert — Author and strategist focused on pragmatic, evidence‑based advocacy. Known for promoting incremental change, cultural sensitivity, and long‑term movement strategy.

Antonia Gifford — Social psychologist and incoming doctoral researcher. Studies communication, moral development, and how children form attitudes toward other living beings.

Chris Hopwood — Professor of psychology specialising in personality and interpersonal behaviour. Examines how people navigate moral conflict, identity, and the tensions between caring about animals and everyday habits.

Sue O’Neill — Crisis‑support practitioner and applied researcher. Brings frontline insight into how people make decisions under pressure and how advocacy organisations can better support them.

Jared Piazza — Senior lecturer in social psychology. Researches moral judgement, meat consumption, and the psychological mechanisms people use to justify animal use.

Joshua Rottman — Associate professor of psychology. Studies moral reasoning, human–animal relations, and how people reconcile beliefs about harm with everyday behaviour.

Ondine Sherman — Author and co‑founder of Voiceless. Works on compassionate education, narrative change, and the emotional dimensions of advocacy.

Katja Liebal — Biologist and comparative psychologist. Studies communication and facial expressions in non‑human primates, and how children develop attitudes toward unfamiliar animals, including through the “fantasy animals” project.

Related Links:

 * PHAIR Society [https://phairsociety.org/] A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.
 * For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.com [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com]


Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

148. What Actually Changes Behaviour: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference 3/5

Adults don’t simply lose empathy for animals — they learn out of it. This second episode of the PHAIR Mini-series: traces how early openness narrows into adult resistance. Researchers describe the developmental arc: children begin with flexible, generous moral concern, but adolescence introduces pressures that harden attitudes and make adult behavior difficult to shift. Advocates and psychologists unpack why adults cling to entrenched patterns even when they they care about animals.

This episode Features guests:

Tobias Leenaert — Author, strategist, and co‑founder of the Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy. Known for pragmatic, evidence‑based approaches to behaviour change and movement strategy, with a focus on incrementalism and broad‑tent advocacy.

Antonia Gefahrt — Social psychologist and incoming doctoral researcher at the University of Burg.

Chris Hopwood — Professor of Psychology at the University of Zurich. Specialises in personality, identity, and interpersonal dynamics, with recent work examining how moral identity and self‑concept influence human–animal relationships

Joshua Rottman — Associate Professor of Psychology at Franklin & Marshall College. Studies moral reasoning, cognitive development, and how people justify eating animals.

Brooke Haggerty — Executive Director of Faunalytics. Works at the intersection of research and advocacy, helping organizations use data to design more effective interventions and understand public attitudes toward animals.

Jared Piazza — Senior Lecturer in Social Psychology at Lancaster University. Research focuses on meat consumption, moral conflict, and the belief–behavior gap.

Matthew Ruby — Psychologist and researcher whose work explores moral cognition, food choices, and the psychology of eating animals. Studies how cultural norms and identity shape dietary behaviour and openness to change.

Ondine Sherman — Author, advocate, and co‑founder of Voiceless. Focuses on youth engagement and ethical storytelling.

Katja Liebal — Researcher studying childhood perception, fantasy animals, and early moral development.

Related Links:

 * PHAIR Society [https://phairsociety.org/] A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.
 * For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.com [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com]


Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

147. Why Adults get Stuck: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference 2/5

First episode in a five‑episode series recorded at the Psychology of Human–Animal Intergroup Relations (PHAIR) Conference, exploring how beliefs, identity, childhood perception, and social norms shape human–animal relationships. Across conversations with ten speakers — researchers, advocates, and strategists — the series traces the tensions, hopes, and emerging ideas shaping the future of human–animal relations.

this episode includes guests:

 * Ondine Sherman — Author, advocate, and co‑founder of Voiceless. Focuses on youth engagement and ethical storytelling.
 * Antonia Gefahrt — Social psychologist and incoming doctoral researcher at the University of Burg.
 * Katja Liebal — Researcher studying childhood perception, fantasy animals, and early moral development.
 * Joshua Rottman — Associate Professor of Psychology at Franklin & Marshall College. Studies moral reasoning, cognitive development, and how people justify eating animals.
 * Jared Piazza — Senior Lecturer in Social Psychology at Lancaster University. Research focuses on meat consumption, moral conflict, and the belief–behavior gap.


Related Links:

 * PHAIR Society [https://phairsociety.org/] A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.
 * For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.com [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com]


Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

146. How we Learn to See Animals: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference ep. 1/5

Marika Bell (@msbell) · Zencastr

Marika Bell (@msbell)

Humans interact with animals every day of our lives. Even those without pets
interact with animals in various ways: diet, wildlife, the clothes they wear.
Even most medicines use animals in testing or in the medicine itself. This is a
podcast about Anthrozoology: the study of interaction between humans and
non-human animals. My hope is to help in research accessibility to listeners
while bringing the lived experience of our human connection with animals to
academia. www.thedealwithanimals.com hosted and edited by Marika S. Bell. Music
composed by Kai Strandskov https://kaistrandskov.com Support this podcast:
https://anchor.fm/anthrozoo/support

The Deal With Animals with Marika S. Bell