Episode 5 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation - Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/CBojd1jmCxj]

Amber reveals what happens when an animal’s entire life is shaped around the profitability of her reproductive system, and what it means to rethink captivity from the inside out.

Guest Bio: Amber Canavan is the Associate Director of Vegan Campaigns at People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), where she focuses on improving the lives of animals used for food. Her work includes persuading major retailers like Costco, Target, and Albertsons to stop selling coconut milk sourced from brands that rely on forced monkey labour in Thailand; pushing Kikkoman to end decades‑long animal experiments; and convincing Starbucks, Dutch Bros, and other coffee chains to drop their vegan‑milk upcharge.

Book Recommendations: What the Chicken Knows: A New Appreciation of the World's Most Familiar Bird [https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Chicken-Knows-Appreciation-Familiar/dp/1668047365] by Sy Montgomery

Related Links:

E92. with Patrice Jones of VINE Sanctuary (Mar 2024) [https://open.spotify.com/episode/4wWjiKzm0h2dah34rbPbIN?si=aQ1FqPFRSMq4mZglbF1Hvw]

E111. Special Episode with Sy Montgomery (Dec 2024) [https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Ke3T9bLLgbhRDNEo84kzW?si=MCij4wEjTJ-q6N12QjCW_g]

See the 'cage free' video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE2JBm-gjFY]

White Paper on Cage Free (PETA) [https://www.peta.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Cage-Free-White-Paper.pdf]

Cage Free [https://www.peta.org/features/cage-free-white-paper-peta/]

VINE Sanctuary [https://vinesanctuary.org/donate/]

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

144. Engineered for Exploitation with Amber Canavan (S16)

Episode 4 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/XsepkSztqkr]

Dr. Culum Brown's insights challenge our assumptions about agency underwater and ask us to reconsider what captivity means for animals whose intelligence we’ve long underestimated.

Guest Bios: Dr. Culum Brown [https://thefishlab.com/PI.html] is a behavioural ecologist and Professor at Macquarie University, known for his pioneering research on fish cognition, learning, and welfare. He has published extensively on how fishes navigate their environments, form memories, solve problems, and experience stress, and his work has helped reshape scientific and public understanding of intelligence underwater. Culum is the long‑time Editor of the Journal of Fish Biology and a leading voice in global discussions about fish sentience and the ethical implications of keeping fishes in captivity.

Book Recommendations: On the Origin of Species: Or; The Preservation of the Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life [https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1528705602/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?psc=1&pd_rd_i=1528705602&pd_rd_w=1047N&content-id=amzn1.sym.67a7787e-69bd-4913-9670-239f61f2c206&pf_rd_p=67a7787e-69bd-4913-9670-239f61f2c206&pf_rd_r=V1RANG2E4ZB3GB3HTYP6&pd_rd_wg=18L0O&pd_rd_r=beee3a25-d1d2-47e2-bd98-961ccb05823c&aref=K0SdeZ7d6q&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWw] by Charles Darwin

Related Links:

121. Is the Joy of Sex Common Across Species? with Dr. Jonathan Balcombe (S13) [https://open.spotify.com/episode/22vPjFJilN7GjMnNt4kfG5]

48: Underwater Bioacoustics with Dr. Michelle Fournet (S6) [https://open.spotify.com/episode/6UndravKZQb1MGyJT607lD?si=IuoMQBSpSRyRqmJTg2c1xw]

123. Are We Turning Marine Mammals into Breeding Machines? with Dr. Lori Marino (S13) [https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ykCZzpkqrc8QCRLR5eG7N?si=dO6ZZjHUTJ6XxsA2cmu_wA]

The Fish Lab [https://thefishlab.com/PI.html]

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

143. The Captivity of Fishes with Dr. Culum Brown

Episode 3 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation - Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/Ysk589xfMx3]

In this episode, animal welfare scientist Lauri Torgerson‑White unpacks how sanctuaries can become true multispecies communities, exploring what agency, choice, and ethical care look like when we design environments with animals rather than for them.

Guest Bios: Lauri Torgerson‑White is an agency‑focused animal welfare scientist working with New York University’s All Animals Initiative and serving as Director of Sanctuary Animal Well‑Being at Operation Angels [https://operationangels.org/]. Her career spans the Detroit Zoo’s Center for Zoo Animal Welfare, Mercy For Animals, and Farm Sanctuary, where she helped establish sanctuary‑based research programs. Her scholarship explores animal cognition, behaviour, welfare, and ethical research design across farmed and zoological settings. Guided by data and driven by compassion, Lauri’s work asks how humans can re‑enter multispecies communities with humility, curiosity, and a commitment to shared flourishing.

Book Recommendations: The Arrogant Ape: And A New Way To See Humanity [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arrogant-Ape-Christine-Webb/dp/1408717727/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2EFZ98G76OJ07&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.7igNmEh5_GUfudhxRxjd1qGE5HQ8wztaOlr0j3wS-Fc.83KFVVg02k1gnso5o6sojiJytF0ECxrUvOxTsMP7bRc&dib_tag=se&keywords=The+Arrogant+Ape+by+Christine+Webb.&qid=1778675336&s=books&sprefix=the+arrogant+ape+by+christine+webb.+%2Cstripbooks%2C95&sr=1-1]

by Christine Webb and Birds as Individuals [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Birds-as-Individuals-Len-Howard/dp/B0CPJL325Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3VKACT0NNJ2E2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.MfjpF_B5lgzgYc9ohxEirqhcvRXO8UJaKhvB2QcOaVC8Ysbb3NQGxj1K121whXQuFkkxNvn1OaTaxxxAGTiW3Z1vJiicbCsa3XsnQpLAcmU.jLPs2QLdko0xS8MjUYjLJ4026KNQro7tEHSwX9NlCFo&dib_tag=se&keywords=Birds+as+Individuals+by+Len+Howard&qid=1778675487&s=books&sprefix=birds+as+individuals+by+len+howard+%2Cstripbooks%2C92&sr=1-1] by Len Howard

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

Ep 111. What the Chicken Knows...with Author Sy Montgomery [https://open.spotify.com/episode/5DA0nU5nCeURNM6r2lHyaU?si=gU0F5JChQE63iOSFcFgxKw]

Ep 92. Speciesism and The Chicken Encounter That Changed Everything with Pattrice Jones of VINE Animal Sanctuary [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2jSX2LEJsUfykJnkMe7Hjz?si=gHNE7vXwTmGW7xM6npswgA]

Mentioned in this episode:

PHAIR Conference Coverage

New Minis-series coming Summer 2026

142. Creating a Multispecies Community with Animal Welfare Scientist, Lauri Torgerson-White

Episode Two of Series 16: The Captivity Question- Transcript (linked) [https://share.descript.com/view/kye6zGQqg63]

Dr. Andy Gray explains how primate sanctuaries exist to provide lifelong, species‑appropriate care—especially social companionship—for primates who often arrive with trauma, abnormal behaviors, or complex medical needs. She describes the growing demand for sanctuary placement driven by illegal pet trade, confiscations, and increased awareness, alongside the emotional and logistical challenges sanctuaries and staff face. She also highlights the importance of collaboration between sanctuaries and zoos, the rise of operant conditioning for stress‑free veterinary care, and the urgent need for legislation like the Captive Primate Safety Act. [https://janegoodall.org/make-a-difference/captive-primate-safety-act/]

Guest Bio: Amanda “Andy” Gray is the Director of NAPSA [https://primatesanctuaries.org/] and has worked with primates since 2008, beginning as a volunteer at Chimpanzee Sanctuary Northwest and the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute while studying Primate Behavior, Ecology, and Anthropology at Central Washington University. She earned her Master’s in Primate Conservation at Oxford Brookes University, conducting research on slow lorises affected by the illegal pet trade, and later worked as a caregiver and fundraiser at several NAPSA member sanctuaries, including Save the Chimps. Most recently, she served as Program Manager for Second Chance Chimpanzee Refuge Liberia, overseeing operations, strategy, and development; she now lives in Southern California with her family and two rescue dogs.

Book Recommendations: Holidays on Ice [https://www.davidsedarisbooks.com/titles/david-sedaris/holidays-on-ice/9780316078917/] by David Sedaris

Related Links:

WILDLIFE CONFISCATION NETWORK [https://www.aza.org/wta-confiscations-network]

Captive Primate Safety Act- 2008 [https://awionline.org/legislation/captive-primate-safety-act]

Great Ape Heart Project [https://greatapeheartproject.org/]

Ep 133. Speaking Across Species [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2VyG65DNrOitOZMiahI6vx?si=3HQZ4asMTRCpWjZvCC4jHw]

Ep 124 What Can A Matriarchal Society Teach Us [https://open.spotify.com/episode/1aFxTB58B6NgbqxCuopkyx?si=7by3gartROOKlR7qw8pQ6g]

Ep 93. Human Relevant Testing [https://open.spotify.com/episode/0FJgYU4Egir4JScpf3oZHD?si=gfu89XZiRaWT-zP79BF1AA]

141.  Where Primates Go to Heal with Primatologist Andy Gray

Episode One of Series 16 : The Captivity Question - Transcript (linked) [https://share.descript.com/view/orK7sPtmx35]

Dr. Susan Friedman joins me to explore captivity through the lens of behaviour science — from choice and control to “freeing the operant,” honouring the no, and shaping the yes. We discuss how environments shape agency for animals in zoos, sanctuaries, and homes, and what true welfare requires.

Guest Bio: Dr. Susan G. Friedman is a professor emeritus of psychology at Utah State University and the founder of Behavior Works Consulting [behaviourworks.org]. She has co‑authored chapters in five veterinary texts, and her widely read articles have been translated into 17 languages. Susan’s online course, How Behavior Works, has reached students in 64 countries, and she consults internationally with zoos and animal‑care organizations, including teaching for BIAZA’s Animal Trainer Accreditation program. She served on the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service’s California Condor Recovery Team and currently chairs the Scientific Advisory Committee for American Humane’s Film and TV Unit. Her newest initiative, Behavior Works Zoo School [bwzs.org], launches in 2026.

Susan's Book Recommendations: The Science of Consequences: How They Affect Genes, Change the Brain, and Impact Our World [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Consequences-Affect-Change-Impact/dp/1616146621#:~:text=Ten%20years%20in%20the%20making,make%20sense%20of%20so%20much.] by Susan Schneider [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Susan-Schneider/e/B0096SS5WW/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1]

Related Links: bwzs.org [http://bwzs.org/]

behaviourworks.org [http://behaviourworks.org/]

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share] - USA

UK Guest Book Rec List [https://www.amazon.co.uk/hz/wishlist/ls/3GCDUI7ZKMAKS/ref=nav_wishlist_lists_2]

Behaviour Science Glossary- Operant Behaviour

Behaviour animals learn because it works — it produces outcomes they want or helps them avoid outcomes they don’t. It’s shaped by consequences, not instinct.

Freeing the Operant

Designing environments where animals can choose how to behave to get outcomes. Instead of training step‑by‑step, you provide meaningful reasons to behave and let the animal’s natural problem‑solving emerge.

Reinforcers

Anything an animal values enough to work for: food, social contact, exploration, novelty, comfort, problem‑solving. Reinforcers are the “reasons” animals behave.

For‑Shortened Reinforcers

A concept from Susan Schneider: boredom isn’t caused by small spaces but by limited access to meaningful reinforcers. Captivity reduces the variety of things animals can work for.

Engaging Environments

Susan’s preferred term over “enrichment.” Instead of adding extras, it means creating a lifestyle environment that naturally invites exploration, agency, and species‑typical behaviour.

Contingency

The relationship between behaviour and outcome: If I do X, Y happens. Animals constantly test these relationships to understand what they can control.

140. Choice and Control with Applied Behavior Scientist, Dr. Susan Friedman

The is the Spring Special Episode! Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/N2Lb9FmBbBH]

McConnell describes learning the craft of fiction, developing protagonist Maddie McGowan, for her recently released murder mystery, 'Away To Me'. The conversation also explores what herding teaches about partnership and training without leashes, how breed and context affect behavior, and what she hopes the next generation of trainers advances.

Guest Bio: Patricia McConnell, PhD, CAAB is an internationally renowned animal behaviorist and author whose acclaimed books, including The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of a Dog, and The Education of Will, have sold more than 1.2 million copies. She saw clients whose dogs had serious behavioral problems for twenty-five years, and spoke around the world about canine training and behavior. A former adjunct professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, her nationally syndicated radio show, Calling All Pets, played in more than 110 cities for 14 years and her television show, Petline, aired on Animal Planet for two and a half years. Her debut novel, Away to Me, is her first venture into fiction, and has received rave reviews. She lives with her husband, Jim Billings, her Border Collies Skip and Maggie, and a spoiled flock of sheep on a farm in Southern Wisconsin, and can be found online at PatriciaMcConnell.com.

Book Recommendations: The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd's Life [https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/190353701-marika-bell?ref=nav_mybooks&shelf=guest-recommendations] by Helen Whybrow

Related Links:

TDWA Blog [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog]

Guest Book Recommendations List [https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1FE2PLMU17JA6?ref_=wl_share]

139. Spring Special! With Dr. Patricia McConnell on on Solving Murders and Herding Dogs

Wrapping up Series 15: I’m filled with gratitude for the incredible insights shared by researchers on animal communication. From primates to birds, it's evident that the way we connect with animals echoes far beyond what we initially perceive. This series to be continued...(TBD)

Introducing Series 16: We navigate the complex dynamics of captivity, I aim to challenge our preconceptions and invite diverse perspectives. Whether you're curious about our roles as caretakers or questioning the moral implications of captivity.

Patreon and a call to Sponsor at... www.thedealwithanimals.com

The Captivity Question: Series 16 Trailer and Series 15 Wrap Up

Episode 6 of Series 15: Animal Communications - Transcript (linked) [https://share.descript.com/view/hjljHm9jHxx]

I’m joined by Dr. Kaeli Swift and Dr. William Feeney to explore how birds learn from one another—sometimes within a species, sometimes across species lines. From crows passing along reputations to magpies inheriting the neighbourhood’s opinion of a cuckoo in seconds, we dive into the fast, social, and surprisingly nuanced ways information moves through bird communities, and what these systems reveal about communication, cooperation, and survival.

Guest Bios: William Feeney currently works as a Research Fellow at Griffith University in Australia and at the Max Planck Institute for Ornithology in Germany. His PhD focused on understanding the ecology and evolution of cuckoo-host arms races in Australia, and since finishing his PhD he has continued working on this as well as predator-prey relationships in coral reef fishes. His current work is split between working on fishes and birds, and in particular at two long-term projects in Australia [http://www.instagram.com/samsonvalebirdproject].

Dr. Kaeli Swift [https://corvidresearch.blog/about/]is a research scientist with the University of Washington. For the past 5 years she has lived and worked on the remote island of Tinian, where she studies the ecology of the endemic Tinian monarch. She received her PhD from the University of Washington where she studied crow funerals.

Book Recommendations: Will's Recommendation- Letters to a young Scientist [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16234587-letters-to-a-young-scientist] by EO Wilson, Kaeli's Recommendation- Any local birding book you can find! Here is one for England and Europe [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26238258-rspb-birds-of-britain-and-europe?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=lKleoUDRqq&rank=1]

Related Links: Episode 2 of Series 13, Sex and Animals [https://open.spotify.com/episode/0SOWHrnep5j95jfTSSKIS0?si=NWEtuxBwQDqK7Mybv7vEww]

Episode 1 of Series 13, Sex and Animals [https://open.spotify.com/episode/3lkkmTfmpAC0Dwtv3bwtDZ?si=6XpOdJDSRhmAgOxnstYevQ]

138. Crows, Cuckoos, and the Evolution of Avian Communication with researchers Kaeli Swift and Will Feeney

This is a quick explanation of a phenomenon seen in animals who are considered 'conscious' beings. Essentially the difference between automatic or reflexive responses to their environment and reactions that are thought out.

This was my final project for the IAABC Foundation class "The Thinking Animal" with Instructor, Dr. Kristina Spaulding

Regularly scheduled programming on March 2nd.

This was my final project for the IAABC Foundation [https://iaabcfoundation.org/courses/] class "The Thinking Animal" [https://iaabcfoundation.org/courses/the-thinking-dog-cognition-and-its-role-in-behavior/] with Instructor, Dr. Kristina Spaulding



Consciousness in Animals: Intentionality Dialogues - Descript

Send us a text [https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/1960880/open_sms]

Episode 4 of Series 15: Animal Communications  - Transcript [https://share.descript.com/view/epGVzpRU9UW]

The discussion dives into the often misunderstood social behaviors and communication methods of reptiles, from chemical and tactile cues to visual displays. The episode also explores ethical considerations in reptile pet ownership, conservation challenges, and groundbreaking research on reptile emotions and personalities. 

Guest Bios:  Dr. Julia Riley is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Biology at Mount Allison University (MtA) and a Canada Research Chair in Integrative Wildlife Ecology. She leads the Integrative Ecology Lab [https://www.rbglabs.ca/rileyecology-welcome] that aims to increase our knowledge of amphibian and reptile behaviour, evolution, and ecology, as well as aid in the conservation of these imperiled taxa. She was a postdoctoral fellow at University of New South Wales in Australia, Stellenbosch University in South Africa, and at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, Canada. Her research has broadly fit into the fields of behavioural ecology, evolutionary biology, and herpetology. 

Dr. Emily Taylor is a professor of biological sciences at California Polytechnic State University in San Luis Obispo, where she conducts research on the physiology, ecology, and conservation biology of reptiles and amphibians with her students. She is the author of the California Herping Guides.  Learn more at EmilyTaylorScience.com [https://www.emilytaylorscience.com/] and follow her on social media @snakeymama.

Book Recommendations: An Immense World [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59575939-an-immense-world?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=4wNzrgpOx8&rank=1] by Ed Yong,  The Overstory [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40180098-the-overstory?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=6L0NaL8hVA&rank=1] by Richard Powers, Snakes and Snake Hunting [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/131609969-snakes-and-snake-hunting] by Carl Kauffeld

Related Links:  From Strange by Nature Podcast, Please Fish Don't Eat Me [https://open.spotify.com/episode/4DW97Vxhe9OgZQ2Si6vWZU]

109. How Do Aboriginal and Bengali Stories Shape Cultural Understanding of Nature? with Dipanwita Pal, PhD. (S12) [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1960880/episodes/16103094]

31: Attitudes Towards Animals with Matti Wilks (S5) [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1960880/episodes/13141391]

www.jonathanbalcombe.com
What a Fish Knows (NYTimes bestseller)
Super Fly (National Outdoor Book Award winner)
Jake and Ava: A Boy and a Fish (illustrated children's book)

Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1960880/support]


Show Credits⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/about]

⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/testimonials-1]Read the Blog! [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/blog] (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)

What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Podcast Mentoring Services⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thedealwithanimals.com/services]!

⁠⁠⁠⁠Become a Patron! ⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24097443]

⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for the Newsletter [https://dashboard.mailerlite.com/forms/343497/81383929064457488/share]



137. Under Rocks and Soil: Cutting-Edge Discoveries in Reptile Communication with Dr. Emily Taylor and Dr. Julia Riley(S15)

Humans interact with animals every day of our lives. Even those without pets
interact with animals in various ways: diet, wildlife, the clothes they wear.
Even most medicines use animals in testing or in the medicine itself. This is a
podcast about Anthrozoology: the study of interaction between humans and
non-human animals. My hope is to help in research accessibility to listeners
while bringing the lived experience of our human connection with animals to
academia. www.thedealwithanimals.com hosted and edited by Marika S. Bell. Music
composed by Kai Strandskov https://kaistrandskov.com Support this podcast:
https://anchor.fm/anthrozoo/support

Marika Bell

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