Will AI upend education as we know it, or just get absorbed into the systems we already have?

In this episode, host Nate McClennen talks with Sal Khan, founder and CEO of Khan Academy, about where AI is actually headed in schools, in the workforce, and in daily life. Sal shares his real thesis on the so-called "AI jobs apocalypse" and what he thinks the next five years actually look like.

They talk through durable skills, what they really are, why they're hard to measure, and how Sal's new Khan-TED Institute is trying to change that. Sal also shares how his own thinking on AI and learning has evolved, and what he tells his own kids about navigating all of this right now.

Guest Links

Sal's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/khanacademy/ Sal's X (Twitter): https://x.com/salkhanacademy Khan Academy: https://www.khanacademy.org/ Schoolhouse.World: https://schoolhouse.world/

Khan Academy's founder on AI: "Hope isn't a strategy" | Sal Khan

Digital badges and credentials promise to finally show what a learner actually knows. Dr. Kelly Page says that promise has a dark side nobody's talking about.

In this episode, host Mason Pashia talks with Dr. Kelly Page, a social design ethnographer and author of "When Credentials Cause Harm: Unpacking the Risks of Verifiable Learning and Work Records." Kelly has spent years documenting how well-intentioned credentialing systems can end up excluding, surveilling, or flattening the very people they're supposed to empower.

They get into who actually controls a learner's record, why some of the most marginalized communities are also the most wary of the video documentation these systems rely on, and why more data isn't the same as the right data. Kelly makes the case for a future built on self-sovereign data, where students and workers, not districts or vendors, own and control their own records, and shares practical advice for school leaders on what to ask before adopting any new credentialing technology.

Guest Links

Kelly's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkellypage/

Live What You Love (LWYL Studio): lwylstudio.com

When Credentials Cause Harm (book): https://www.amazon.com/When-Credentials-Cause-Harm-Verifiable/dp/1969861029

She Says Schools Are Collecting Too Much Data | Dr. Kelly Page

In this episode of Catching Up, Nate McClennen and Mason Pashia get into what happens after a $2.5 billion settlement lands, and whether "fund real life" is actually a better answer than another wave of mental health apps. They also talk through a study showing AI models recommend completely different schools depending on which one you ask, and why that's a bigger deal than it sounds.

From there, the conversation turns to a real tension in AI and education right now: efficiency versus efficacy. Nate makes the case that the real opportunity isn't faster lesson planning, it's building AI tools around what learning science already tells us works, things like spaced practice, real-time feedback, and targeted instruction. He also breaks down a simple way to think about how school systems actually learn, separating implementation, innovation, and continuous improvement, and why mixing them up is often where districts get stuck.

Mason brings a deep dive on moving past tokenistic student surveys toward real intergenerational co-design, with some genuinely striking examples, a student-drafted AI policy bill that passed 82 to 16, and the Kentucky Student Voice Team's constitutional lawsuit against their own state.

They wrap up with something a little lighter: a living room full of guitars at a family wedding, and a pottery shop in Illinois that's run entirely on the honor system, two small reminders of what real human connection still looks like.

Links

 * If Social Media Companies Owe Billions, Let's Fund What Kids Need [https://the74million.us11.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ed7a40adc5e6569f36b64ba3e&id=e1c03525da&e=f650641c59]

 * Taylor Lorenz in the Guardian [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/mar/02/ban-children-social-media-biometic-data-surveilled]

 * PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP [https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2026/08/03/339242.htm]

 * https://whiteboardadvisors.docsend.com/view/aka3amitbucqs8f7

 * Kentucky Student Voice Team (KSVT) [https://www.ksvt.org/updates/students-file-lawsuit-against-commonwealth-of-kentucky-demanding-a-quality-public-education]

 * Youth Power Fund [https://www.rtyouthpower.org/aboutthefund]



Catching Up: Meta's Billion-Dollar Payout, AI Search Bias, and Fixing Student Voice

Public education is facing a moment it hasn't seen in decades: shrinking enrollment, an explosion of school choice options, and real questions about who should even be in charge of a district's decisions.

In this episode, host Mason Pashia talks with Dr. Janice K. Jackson, former CEO of Chicago Public Schools, the nation's third-largest school district, and current executive director of the Aspen Institute's Education and Society program. Janice led CPS under mayoral control and has watched the district's shift toward a hybrid, partially elected school board unfold in real time, all while Denver debates moving in the opposite direction.

Mason and Janice start with technology and screen time, why Janice thinks blanket phone bans miss the real issue in classrooms, and why she worries restrictive policies often land hardest on low-income students. They talk through what it actually looks like to involve parents in decisions rather than just informing them after the fact.

The conversation then turns to governance. Janice explains the real trade-offs between mayoral control and an elected school board, why she believes accountability gets harder as more people are put in charge of a district, and what she's watching in Chicago's board election this fall.

They close by digging into the rise of microschools and alternative school models, the tension between competency-based learning and a transcript system that hasn't meaningfully changed in over a century, and what public schools can realistically do with underused buildings as enrollment declines.

Guest Links

 * Face the Nation CBS Interview — https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-janice-jackson-on-face-the-nation-january-31-2021/
 * The Education Equation Podcast/Interview — https://youtu.be/6g7b6Nz_XXw
 * Aspen Institute Education & Society Program — https://www.aspeninstitute.org/programs/education-and-society-program/

Janice K. Jackson Ran Chicago Public Schools. Here's What She'd Change. | Janice K. Jackson

A new federal tax credit is launching in January 2027 that could bring real money into public schools, and most districts don't even know it exists yet.

In this episode, host Nate McClennen talks with Antonio Parés, founder and principal of Walnut Hill Workshop, about the Education Freedom Tax Credit, also known as the Federal Tax Credit for Scholarships, or FTCS. The program lets any taxpayer redirect up to $1,700 to a scholarship-granting organization, or SGO, at zero net cost to themselves.

Antonio breaks down how the credit actually works for donors, how school districts can take advantage of it, and which fees and expenses qualify. He makes the case that public education, not just private schools, is in a strong position to benefit from this program, since districts already have the donor relationships, trust, and infrastructure that most new scholarship organizations are starting from scratch.

Nate and Antonio also dig into the still-unresolved 90/10 rule, which will determine how much of every donated dollar has to go directly to scholarships versus administrative costs, why shared SGO infrastructure across districts might make sense, and what concrete steps superintendents, school board members, and district leaders should be taking right now, well before Treasury's final guidance comes out in September.

Whether you're new to this topic or already tracking it closely, this conversation lays out what's known, what's still uncertain, and how to start preparing.

 * Learn more about Antonio's work at Walnut Hill Workshop: https://www.linkedin.com/company/walnut-hill-workshop/
 * Related reading: "Want Federal Tax Credit Money for Public Schools? Here's What to Do Now" (The 74): https://www.the74million.org/article/want-federal-tax-credit-money-for-public-schools-heres-what-to-do-now/



The $1,700 School Tax Credit Nobody's Using Yet | Antonio Parés

Dr. Jane Shore is an education researcher, school co-founder, and author of "People-Based Learning: The Future of Learning is Human" (Routledge, 2026). She joins host Rebecca Midles to talk about her three-part framework, connect, reflect, and affect, and why the future of education depends on human connection, not just technology.

Jane is the founder of School of Thought PHL, a school built at the intersection of learning science, neuroscience, and visual thinking.

 * Jane's Book: https://www.routledge.com/People-Based-Learning-The-Future-of-Learning-is-Human/Shore/p/book/9781041089858
 * Jane's School (School of Thought PHL): https://revolutionschool.org/
 * Jane's Substack: https://substack.com/@schoolofthought
 * Jane's Edutopia Profile: https://www.edutopia.org/profile/jane-shore/
 * Jane's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-r-shore/

Are We Designing Schools for Systems or for People? | Jane Shore

In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, host Mason Pashia sits down with Edson Barton, CEO and co-founder of YouScience, to explore what it truly means to build a credentialing system that delivers value to learners, not just paperwork. Drawing on Utah's landmark House Bill 260, which mandates stackable credentials for all graduates and positions YouScience as the infrastructure powering that vision, Edson and Mason unpack what an end-to-end career readiness ecosystem looks like when it is grounded in science, driven by aptitude, and designed to answer every student's most fundamental question: why am I learning this? Edson shares his own winding, non-linear education story as a lens into why the current system fails so many passionate learners, and how aptitude-based guidance, layered with stackable industry certifications, can illuminate a meaningful path from middle school discovery all the way to a first career credential. The conversation covers the grain size of credentials, the challenge of interoperability and learner wallets, how to bring skeptical parents on board, and why the skills recognition movement, accelerated by AI, may finally have the technology to match its ambition. For education leaders looking to move from compliance to coherence, this episode is a compelling and practical case for reimagining what student readiness can mean.



Why 'Why Am I Learning This?' Is the Most Important Question in Education | Edson Barton

In this episode of Catching Up, Nate McClennen and Mason Pashia tackle three of the most urgent tensions in modern education. They explore a landmark Penn study revealing that while AI can streamline lesson planning, it may inadvertently erode student intrinsic motivation and engagement. The hosts also dive into the "truancy triangle"—a framework for understanding chronic absenteeism that balances policy and wraparound support with the often-overlooked necessity of designing learning experiences that students genuinely find relevant and worth attending.

The conversation extends to the broader future of work, contrasting the fears of an "AI job apocalypse" with the reality of an impending demographic job cliff in sectors like healthcare, skilled trades, and education. Balancing these heavy topics, the episode highlights the power of real-world learning, featuring New York City's Summer Youth Employment Program—which leverages World Cup excitement to connect students to paid, hands-on projects—and a "good guy" neighborhood microgrant initiative designed to strengthen community ties. Join Nate and Mason for an honest, layered conversation on how school leaders can cut through the noise to design schools that foster belonging and meaningful outcomes.

Catching Up: Job Cliff, Enrollment Drop, and the Hidden Crisis No One Is Talking About?

Reach University is rethinking higher education with a simple but powerful idea: turn jobs into degrees. In this conversation, Joe Ross shares how apprenticeship degrees can help districts grow their own teachers by investing in the talent already in their buildings. From paraeducators to support staff, this model creates affordable pathways into the profession while strengthening local workforce pipelines. The episode explores teacher prep, higher education, lifelong learning, and new pathways that expand opportunity without adding debt.



Outline
 * (00:00) Introduction: Joe Ross & Reach University
 * (06:26) I Love That You Guys Look at Learning Environments
 * (07:37) How the Apprenticeship Degree Model Works
 * (17:24) Expanding Beyond K-12: Healthcare & Workforce Equity
 * (26:43) Next Steps: How to Get Started with Reach University

Links
 * Read the full blog here [https://www.gettingsmart.com/podcast/auto-draft/]
 * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeross/]
 * Reach University [https://reach.edu/]



How Can Districts Turn Jobs Into Degrees to Build Stronger Teacher Pipelines? | Joe Ross

In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia and Jason Cummins sit down with Tyson Yunkaporta for a thought-provoking conversation on Indigenous knowledge, relational learning, and the role of schools as spaces for dialogue, contradiction, and meaning-making. Together, they explore how language shapes worldview, why Indigenous leadership brings vital governance protocols to education, and how schools can move beyond reinforcing boundaries to becoming places where relationships, complexity, and shared understanding can grow.



Outline
 * (00:00) Introductions & Indigenous Identity
 * (06:54) Language, Knowledge & Relational Thinking
 * (11:24) Creolization & Indigenous Agency
 * (18:59) Schools as Sites of Conflict & Culture
 * (24:41) Good Protocols & Indigenous Leadership
 * (31:42) Why Do This Work & Deep Time

Links
 * Read the full blog [https://www.gettingsmart.com/podcast/tyson-yunkaporta/]
 * American Indian and Indigenous Studies Program [https://cals.cornell.edu/american-indian-indigenous-studies/dr-tyson-yunkaporta]
 * Declaration of Peace for Indigenous Australians and Nature: A Legal Pluralist Approach to First Laws and Earth Laws [https://www.amazon.com/-/he/Anne-Poelina/dp/9819993261]
 * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyson-yunkaporta-04a9b969/]
 * Deakin Research [https://www.deakin.edu.au/research]



Tell Story: Tyson Yunkaporta on Deep Time, Creolization, and Education

Mason (@gettingsmart) · Zencastr

Mason (@gettingsmart)

This podcast highlights developing trends in K-12 education, postsecondary and
lifelong learning. Each week, Getting Smart team members interview students,
leading authors, experts and practitioners in research, tech, entrepreneurship
and leadership to bring listeners innovative and actionable strategies in
education leadership. This podcast is most frequently hosted by Tom Vander Ark
[https://twitter.com/tvanderark], CEO of Getting Smart
[https://gettingsmart.com]. Be sure to check out the Getting Smart Newsletter
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