This week we rented the top 3 maths movies of all time – A Beautiful Mind, The Imitation Game and 3 Men and a Baby – all in order to be mathematically competent enough to share a pod with one of the world’s greatest number nibblers, Marcus du Sautoy.

So highly acclaimed and awarded, we could have filled the entire podcast by listing out his many achievements, Marcus is perhaps best known as a Professor in Mathematics, Fellow of the Royal Society and Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University.

But, as well as being one of the very smartest people on the planet, he’s also one of the most engaging and enlightening speakers on the unexpected stories to be found in numbers, having written for several national newspapers and appeared on a number of mathematically-inclined TV shows including Mind Games, The Story of Maths and The Code (not to be confused with The Cube).

By now you’ve probably run out of fingers to tally up all the brilliant things he’s done, so we shall just wrap up by saying he’s also the author of a series of superb books examining the relationship between maths, creativity, music, games and more – including Blue Prints, The Music of Primes and The Creativity Code. 

(Basically, the fact that it took us all this time to mention he’s also an OBE tells you all you need to know. He’s an impressive dude.)

In an episode where Giles wears his disappointing GCSE results like a hi-vis vest of inadequacy, we ponder the search for meaning in numbers and how the stories behind them can help shape ideas and solve problems. 
 
 This episode is proudly dedicated to Mr Baleson. 

Follow Marcus [https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcus-du-sautoy/] on LinkedIn

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Timestamps

04:17 - The Influence of a Great Teacher
 06:03 - Mathematics as a Language and Creative Outlet
 08:44 - The Intersection of Mathematics and the Arts
 12:08 - Exploring Creativity in Mathematics
 15:17 - The Relationship Between Structure and Artistic Expression
 21:10 - The Cicada's Prime Number Life Cycle
 30:51 - Patterns and Expectations in Art and Comedy
 33:09 - The Role of Mathematics in Problem Solving
 43:15 - The Importance of Storytelling in Science
 46:25 - The Search for Meaning in Numbers
 48:13 - The Dual Nature of Scientific Thinking

 Marcus’ Book recommendations are:

A Mathematician’s Apology [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematicians-Apology-G-H-Hardy/dp/9388318145/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1VP64COGBBNRW&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.U3eet2EYyvX5oe7ZL7iQ9gFz0B_waBUI8oJC79nD7o-yojGozrRmFnSBVgqXXCisKFLMzM4KeoTFhIV0eBz-pGhtHq9L1V-BdUV_yLisYD0YGWNyBO9rUAJOtB4xX19kk2OGnDFIBXrPfz2CmQJOJORJO4WbhSjpQdlNa_NG7mK4Hsjzd4tkN6ksD-5m9_5mZZjL1cukP7T3cWqoAGFUO8oR8NqzIFWEhlp1nKhkZDM.4iz8iB3N83igeKR1lyhsiYzoq6Bq9RJF8gb2leYIcOw&dib_tag=se&keywords=A+Mathematician%27s+Apology&qid=1757409507&sprefix=a+mathematician%27s+apology%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-3] by G.H. Hardy
 
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170: Marcus du Sautoy on how to see the stories in numbers

This week we broke a golden rule and crossed podcast streams with a pair of excellent guests, Richard Shotton and MichaelAaron Flicker, hosts of the Behavioural Science for Brands podcast and co-authors of the soon-to-be released (and definitely-to-be brilliant) Hacking The Human Mind.

Richard is, of course, returning for a record third appearance on Call To Action® although we have respectfully honoured his request to not be left alone with Giles. Responsible for opening industry eyes to the potential of behavioural science, Richard is the author of two books that serious marketing types like you and I could not do without – The Choice Factory and The Illusion of Choice.

Alongside him today, as is so often the case, is MichaelAaron Flicker, founder and president of (Zeeenno-Sigh) XenoPsi Ventures, a brand incubator firm that helps out all kinds of companies with financial, marketing and intellectual capital. As well as co-hosting their pod, and co-authoring their book, they’ve completed a hattrick of Co’s by co-founding the Consumer Behaviour Lab, where they apply their considerable collective knowledge to help make marketing smarter, better and less stinky.

In an episode where we open the sunroof on the human mind and reveal there’s much more to it than day dreams, crippling doubt and song lyrics from 1996, we hear from two of the field’s most compelling experts on what it really takes for a brand to be chosen.

This episode is proudly dedicated to Rory Sutherland.
 
 Follow Richard [https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-shotton/] and MichaelAaron [https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelaaron-flicker/] on LinkedIn.
 
/////

Timestamps

08:27 - Reflections on Career Path and Pivots
10:09 - Richard's Tribute to Ozzy Osbourne
12:39 - How Richard and Michael Met
14:22 - The Concept Behind Their New Book
16:01 - Writing Process and Collaboration Insights
20:21 - Discussion on Haagen-Dazs and Country of Origin Effect
25:04 - The Power of Naming: Patagonian Toothfish vs. Chilean Sea Bass
30:07 - Marketing Confusion Between Marketing and Sales

Their Book Recommendations are:

Alchemy [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alchemy-Original-Thinking-Mind-Numbing-Conformity/dp/0753556529/ref=sr_1_1?crid=HEVXE46J6S5&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yuIt7AXfDuRfCAVlniNUxlIq3UXOhQEMQIyV9ivJpHvtsOhOc9_46f4EZiLgiBcBcfBNEuYe3k17TN4SSOXTaYJ5XNXtvgOa5cVGGwt7UVkrXp8Z1eWWYXwFHBIJse7G8oxE2PFL5jZEczlJ4WUT8ymQGS21IzpVipHWy2q-ZQ4eL05vgZLt9uGyfsQCOlwrXvJ-lxUffTNjBOjYK3_ezA.4URjjzY69y2qHnJEFD5vN1znAdmmYTE3lajEkDNKQg8&dib_tag=se&keywords=alchemy+rory+sutherland&qid=1755874902&sprefix=alchemy%2Caps%2C86&sr=8-1] by Rory Sutherland
Tiny Habits [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiny-Habits-Changes-Change-Everything/dp/0753553244/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3BR9W98Q19SC1&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8a0zBJW0wTJ93-cEchRf5z7T3889nDFc-aGf91NxfO9r1tY3fuXBAvk_zkElddo1_8vxDnGgRarU_fp9QzELsssJXNu2OulrYSpOhklk07hNbqUHwXMEHhlENqavAUoPDHb_KkYDSrxfm8hKji96D4HnAFHFZrrHUiT6SoDQgjYIzNaH4iIAaV6Q0Ud1zp_MqtLbWA-RoYDbEOmXEe5KZAutbJ3d5jkagUWQwc4XZn0.Rzr0RBw15JE5dBNS7ysg4T1QgmFYzF9DB08WtxDRk5A&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+habits+bj+fogg+book&qid=1755874919&sprefix=tiny+habits%2Caps%2C79&sr=8-1] by BJ Fogg

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169: Richard Shotton and MichaelAaron Flicker on hacking the human mind.

This week we tucked in our shirt, straightened our tie and resisted the temptation to nip off for a quick vape behind the pickle-ball court, all in order to suitably impress our guest, one of the world’s greatest marketing academics, Professor Byron Sharp. 

A man who would need no introduction (if we weren’t contractually obliged to provide all our pod guests with one) Prof Byron is one of the world’s most respected thinkers in the field of brands and consumer behaviour.

Unless you’re deliberately trying to get yourself fired from your marketing role, you’ll no doubt have read his seminal book ‘How Brands Grow’ and, if you’re especially lucky, you may well have learned directly from the man himself in one of his globally prestigious academic roles. 

A speaker, a teacher, a thinker and a pioneering researcher, Byron still has the time to be a thoroughly entertaining podcast guest, and is famously happy to share the kind of knee-buckling market truth that the industry fears but also really, really needs.

In an episode where Byron jabs a scholarly finger into the flabby thinking that holds brands back, we ponder the many different disciplines a proper marketer should be able to wrap their heads around if they want a consumer to care.

This episode is proudly dedicated to John Scriven. 

Follow Byron [https://www.linkedin.com/in/professorbyronsharp/] on LinkedIn

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Timestamps

03:27 - Early Jobs and Academia
04:38 - The Importance of Real-World Experience
06:09 - Working with Andrew Ehrenberg
08:28 - The Intent Behind "How Brands Grow"
09:41 - Marketing Blind Spots and Unexplored Areas
10:30 - Cognitive Biases and Behavioral Science
11:48 - The Role of Heuristics in Consumer Behavior
12:43 - Understanding Double Jeopardy Law
14:08 - Consumer Efficiency vs. Laziness
15:26 - Predictive Power of Marketing Science
16:06 - The Weirdness of the Real World
17:37 - Misconceptions About Marketing Science
19:40 - The Role of Synthetic Research
32:58 - B2B Marketing and Growth Strategies
35:22 - The Value of Awards in Marketing

Byron's Book recommendations are:

The Halo Effect [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Halo-Effect-Managers-Themselves-Deceived/dp/1471137163/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1ZCX33QMWVQ2O&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.W5fq8_npkqitt5mdkO4_AfAeGifvMdgBjXVxQzB8Mrr9Fi2qvAZyoBpIwnoVnTP1ShisQozKKNHdVAFOCvPqGrftAZjDNzyktSWSeYQGR62CoJTgVqdCmgqVh5Ss7cxeZzUDXsssttk-0CtPTSbygx5LMBME76kM5tHjDpkMwrBy2FOtVqHm8twEHYxkrK2Pp1mS2EGqkpDkbNqqveDfRy0xLIFyl62MGboHVMg_tbQ.aAQezhVXc3axq0eORoXeXM4lV7iQ0qU44XrGEzT_Vbs&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+halo+effect&qid=1754921643&sprefix=the+halo+effect%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-2] by Phil Rosenzweig
Everything is Obvious [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everything-Obvious-Common-Sense-Nonsense/dp/184887216X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=38WVP8DQ0CDDZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1TZ4bhep_c_hB_TsQsiYqJrmE5mQlqljOK17y9MLyLJy2c2IEday1NrLdZUFHqsX2KDB4yS8YhUICUr-l60_gO7NA2ZtjUpGCNDuMboI0B_494_SWrVm3HD1JotsHFD03xTn9UgqTuQM8futuSXj5KwhE3rMSXjGUvO8_KrQqk5VqVeLGvOVQGqawxdpmu24kQSpHrreItR_TBU0uSnnZ7DXRm_5ijWI36yNMGZSPwE.vBFmFxZZZu_Exdw25-KEy5P8FYxFn0kw0fmy7t1Ml2w&dib_tag=se&keywords=duncan+watts&qid=1754921715&sprefix=duncan+watts%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-1] by Duncan Watts


168: Professor Byron Sharp on a lifetime of learning in the marketing world

This week we’re pushing our withered hamstrings way beyond their wretched limits, all in order to win the attention of our guest, sport and brand marketing super-baller Lisa Parfitt. 

In a career that has been, figuratively, one top bin after the other, Lisa has done more than most to give women’s sport a serious platform, particularly when it comes to those all-important commercial relationships. 

A star player in the efforts to land the Women’s FA Cup their first brand sponsorship, Lisa can be found on the prestigious pages of PR Week’s Power 100 for her work in pushing for greater representation for women in the sports business. 

Having gone toe-to-toe with the inequalities in the game in her time as both a Level 1 coach and director, she now devotes her considerable skills and stamina to creating better, fairer and more sustainable partnerships, sponsorships and culture in the game.

In an episode with absolutely no time wasting, even for the occasional glug of branded energy pop, we ponder everything from the unique brand value of fans of women sport, to how the game is changing, in both sporting and commercial ways.

This episode is proudly dedicated to Karen Earl.
 
Follow Lisa [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-parfitt-7929076/?original_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo%2Ecom%2F&originalSubdomain=uk]on LinkedIn.

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Timestamps

04:34 - Transitioning to the Sports Industry
10:31 - First Job in Women's Sport
12:18 - The Shift to Sponsorship and Commercial Focus
15:32 - The Role of Brands in Women's Sport
20:10 - Securing the First Women's FA Cup Partnership
26:32 - The Impact of COVID on Women's Sport
30:35 - Research on Women's Sports Fans Engagement
36:59 - The Future of Women's Sport and Upcoming Events
42:06 - Changing Perceptions in Women's Sport

Lisa's Book Recommendations are:

Eat Sweat Play [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eat-Sweat-Play-Sport-Change/dp/1509808108/ref=sr_1_1?crid=U347Y2HQ537L&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xCbEF0Pr5a6qPIVCijQiXMUt6yAcVIJTRU9-CKM1KeXGjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.rEBpq8FdwgmW-0pk3LzEhhqIaJ9hfpr3xvI3u85jWkA&dib_tag=se&keywords=Eat+Sweat+Play&qid=1753788376&sprefix=eat+sweat+play%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-1] - Anna Kessel
Why She Buys [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-She-Buys-Strategy-Consumers-ebook/dp/B002FQOHVK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3A6JJD219SL01&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qVfEUgi5ME_IcX6_MbQ89f2l7dwCJ9Fk146XH3FlQs2M3fKGfBjNB7n6uEwkCkI7zebEjpwL_gpcgMX7_v10-fZseOWXlGtjpI1hKAMYoqZWyaKojL5RExsmErBcJQCXh7voa6OBMUKNPIXXumwtknVj_-Sm6xoIms6UkJP7-3YL1FK_hREiLGU3QrFDGHaOmEIMymcAZTsBXky8kdvurA.Q1iXYqVnlpa7Yl4qZpyfFO8g9xqf-y4hqVOiIqMvcF8&dib_tag=se&keywords=why+she+buys&qid=1753788414&sprefix=why+she+buys%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-1] - Bridget Brennan
Game On [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Unstoppable-Rise-Womens-Sport/dp/1800180624/ref=sr_1_1?crid=41GMM2NHSSG3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.hV7V5TzPwIy8ZJ83o6jzPA8sDTXovS9PE7AhW8592V4.8xV65Ft8sThJYXNYy8PWvpW2OefpgKef7LhStG8Bfa0&dib_tag=se&keywords=game+on+sue+anstiss&qid=1753788441&sprefix=game+on+s%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1] - Sue Anstiss

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167: Lisa Parfitt on doing the business for women’s sport. 

This week we made difficult phone-calls to Ant & Dec, Torvill & Dean and, accidentally, the Neville Brothers, all in order to explain that the nation now has a new favourite double act – the joint chiefs of Pablo, Harriet Knight and Hannah Penn.

Not content with leading Pablo to the very top of the creative charts in agency land – scooping up the Global Campaign Indie of the Year award on two separate occasions – H&H have set about tearing up the dusty old rulebook for agency leadership (especially all those pages about being greedy and horrible). They’ve poured their considerable energies into actually delivering the kind of culture every agency pretends they have, and even launched the Pablo Living Wage, a £30,000 minimum salary for entry level roles that opens up the industry to people who are usually left on the side-lines. 

As well as turning Pablo into the creative, and cultural envy of agency world, Harriet and Hannah are also responsible for one of the most successful agency models around – earning a reputation for being superb to work with that translates into a barely believable 100% client retention rate.  

In an episode that puts us all in the uncomfortable position of listening to agency bosses who are actually likeable and amusing, we ponder everything from how agency cultures are created to the dynamics that make their partnership tick. 

This episode is proudly dedicated to Dan Watts.
 
 Follow Hannah [https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-penn-39295836/] and Harriet [https://www.linkedin.com/in/harriet-knight-08570527/] on LinkedIn.

/////
 
Timestamps

03:00 - Early Career Paths: Hannah's Journey
09:00 - Harriet's Background and Transition to Advertising
15:00 - The Importance of Diverse Experiences in Advertising
18:00 - Creative and Commercial Balance in Advertising
22:00 - How Harriet and Hannah Met
25:00 - The Dynamics of Their Partnership
29:00 - Legacy and Impact in the Advertising Industry


Hannah and Harriet’s Book Recommendations are:

Four Thousand Weeks [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Thousand-Weeks-Embrace-limits/dp/1784704008/ref=sr_1_1?crid=ISC4PCL0N667&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.kQeekXDOMx7ZxuzKQlr6Xn7qWu3FA8fuWASIkwPsUQ2U_R8aUG9pamlTSoRWhi9AlPSGz08YE3KVDmDARN2S6aHwLwfk2HHUTBbnb1LnevocV3ttTGIW_1Rz7R5ElWkM46o7034n_9Xa8_UMmR5_xDIi8OnMClCxkRULkVnRy6fH6sKNxSZm5pRxIMhwsjAw3t2Z7BjVx_XIEylYvMPt-Y39FxdakGjY8bdVR9bss0w.AyOLaIrtYe1SGrY50tnGz0M_WDktHkH4SJicLU6E0nA&dib_tag=se&keywords=4000+weeks+oliver+burkeman&qid=1752671986&sprefix=4000+weeks%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1]– Oliver Burkeman
Cork Dork [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cork-Dork-Wine-Fuelled-Journey-Sommeliers/dp/1760632201/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3D1Z8R1X2HN31&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.3UTd5YPXzmLvlH_CKy0kx3upk9myKD4hccqm8bH3zBN7ivdZ7FnUcKim2D8UvpxC.Tb9oC3Z1cwjcccSJdFvRFdN_3mHzU8LyoynEhYFiOSw&dib_tag=se&keywords=cork+dork+by+bianca+bosker&qid=1752672155&sprefix=Cork+Dork%2Caps%2C99&sr=8-1] – Bianca Bosko
Super Communicators [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supercommunicators-Unlock-Secret-Language-Connection/dp/1847943640/ref=sr_1_1?crid=N0IOA217P4Z&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.wo5CyVeByqAtmYse9Vr38IxsM1ckA0hXoBcW8XA28onjN5Hgu1HQ9DfggrodY5-V0atd7YGRJn_xPBi4OekMA88GiEVGEN8NqibcXxifiPCQ6XssOfcyP1zQYMbmtiZONZdxkT3KbLxRvN1UdW7X1Q.DBY7k6zc0Q9glS2Fa-9CMaxiIdLGQNCAeo-SBKEwjt0&dib_tag=se&keywords=super+communicators+charles+duhigg&qid=1752672353&sprefix=Super+Communicators+by+Charles+Duhigg%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1]- Charles Duhigg

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166: Harriet Knight and Hannah Penn on an agency world that’s open to all

This week we tried to arrange a VIP brand event for Call To Action® fans in an abandoned toilet brush factory, all just to prove our cool credentials to Charlie Copsey, the founder of Underground Fan Club.

Having conquered the media mountain earlier in her career – working in TV, radio and film with the likes of Johnny Vaughan and her good pal Colin Murray – Charlie realised that her next great mission would be to rescue fan experiences from the desperately dull doldrums they were in at the time. From there Underground Fan Club was born – a studio devoted to producing more memorable, more believable and more exciting experiences between brands, fans and talent. At the heart of the mission is something many marketers bang on about with no clue, or care, about what it means in reality – authentic connections with your most valuable audience, something Charlie is already proving to be much more than the same old brand baloney.  There’s an increasingly long line of brands queuing up for the Underground treatment but luckily for your ears and brains, CTA is nothing if not a queue jumper. 

In an episode that’s all about fans, super-fans, stan-fans and ceiling fans (not that one) we learn what it takes for your brand to actually mean something more to the people you’re doing it all for.

This episode is proudly dedicated to Colin Murray.
 
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 04:09 - Studying Drama at Loughborough
 10:12 - Working with Johnny Vaughan
 12:28 - The Evolution of Fighting Talk and Live Events
 16:38 - Identifying the Gap: Connecting Talent and Fans
 17:52 - Building Underground Fan Club: The First Event
 20:32 - The Importance of Authentic Experiences
 22:21 - Navigating Brand Partnerships
 26:13 - Finding the Right Brand Partners
 28:05 - Balancing Involvement in Events
 32:29 - The Challenges of Running a Business

Charlie’s Book Recommendations are:

Careless People [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Careless-People-Cautionary-Power-Idealism/dp/1250391237/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1RNUTA8RED8R9&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WU_pyoJakaQGiC0IlbSAlQNxXvyH9ZKmiIk_dgY5lAcP76IJeo9RUMDmUm0WJH9l9WqIeTwtyPc5Fv8U9NZtKAa-0DZQxUm6uKM1srMOdDVjR1-vCV1loK3pqHmveQikYPH_TEW-vUJNK8h0-EZSSsYhpbCnSFi80bSUObsICzcN8KJ7M19KaE-JouiLw434kgY7pzf9tB2iAXS8XRDL3o5_KdXXt7vLqrcjK_XGsGA.xUb4cEi_K2ZNqq67vYVj9xtDDVHqMq70WolhvXlgUKo&dib_tag=se&keywords=careless+people&qid=1751378811&sprefix=careless+people%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-4] - Sarah Wynn-Williams
Shoe Dog [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shoe-Dog-Memoir-Creator-NIKE/dp/1471146723/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3UCRFKI8BV5SO&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Wz2Eqws1Uowq1BcfBHdTrI-U-pmIrEq6syIGAv5xcI05vivOTjZ9imTZwYSeygdtx3Y_rmMhVifNZUcm2LkoAnbvj6RKdPGYDc9RYvsHqFw6GUM6Dc_X9enkEqJnkRh5J5lSpXMyfy1Uz-Al-s_oRR4BgZHQXI2B1LVR9KB41UON_mFsjEmaZ_v7hy-XAXckcBidYmUAMxuxEZO3y3RWRGFbibbw8yezLqBzka2bEEY.MZR8VpYzvWKj2dNx4zmEw5KJnMXvsRukPzoo3byaWL8&dib_tag=se&keywords=shoe+dog+phil+knight&qid=1751378865&sprefix=Shoe+dof%2Caps%2C76&sr=8-1] – Phil Knight 
Losing my Virginity [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Losing-My-Virginity-Survived-Business/dp/0307720748/ref=sr_1_2?crid=37J3T8WC73FFN&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.2W9Au6SgCwSpC3nT_rD5aEwJv-MRdf6IKuGba73MikY0ueUO9g32SFQ-jVOJj4ijpbdSDES0OJBg_lCsLEjuyT4ksrSu9P0pz0mzZqm0nN2j84Z2n4VP5E0XwCOgB2Xaig1FVGdOlNlkZ0RTRXdYxp-Sg6PxPyiD6MOEcZsuoZjAtRDNZ8CIwUvuCV4CLbLMQHQH1ONRYdyqHf74vC1jGVcblemzsDKgBiRxYgvirD4.sMTL5EOUpu5eijzEvtRFPECMMx8jXpH0i1rEfVoy6V8&dib_tag=se&keywords=losing+my+virginity+richard+branson&qid=1751378894&sprefix=losing+my+%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-2] – Richard Branson

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165: Charlie Copsey on bringing fans experiences that aren’t f*ing boring

This week we kept shouting things like HIT ME! TWIST! GO FISH! WHAT’S A SPADE? In order to win the professional attention, and personal sympathy, of Jo Living – founder of ‘poker for business’ consultancy Aces High.

Having noticed that poker was less about bluff and bravado and more about strategy, empathy and teamwork, Jo realised it could be the perfect game for teaching people how to make smarter business decisions. From there she went on to run workshops teaching everything from communication and negotiation, to assertiveness and risk management, all done eye-to-eye through what she calls the ‘contact’ sport of poker.

It’s an episode where we try very hard not to say things about ‘laying the cards on the table’ (but probably won’t succeed) covering everything from the real-world value of a poker face to the power of a timely pause.
 
This episode is proudly dedicated to Adam Living.
 
 Follow Jo on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/joliving/].

/////
 
Timestamps

07:33 - Investment Banking Experience
10:32 - Quarter Life Crisis
15:47 - The Poker Environment
18:15 - Poker as a Game of Strategy
19:50 - Women in Poker
22:39 - Parallels Between Poker and Business
26:02 - Skills Developed Through Poker
29:02 - The Power of the Pause
31:37 - Identifying Leadership Traits
37:13 - Getting More Women at the Table
39:12 - Subtle Tells for Leadership

 Jo’s Book Recommendations are:

Thinking in Bets [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thinking-Bets-Making-Smarter-Decisions/dp/B078SFLXSX/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1P5GOSPLY51A4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.9ha1IdV1YRlAzSNsI1kasC0q66FH9wwOrqKq58hK2IGz4lGT8xYkx9JoyyGjhrFwJPabqAUGdIaGxxqOhfWEK6Cvw2INsyABIL6LPzi6shCgqAMw2zg11mOTzh78N-fjM_rdBkUsx9JfFi1lzOs9UESI_n1gE_kYNnXqdGLiFjXzLW4B9-d547yPhT3ukjpU.hKkqJfTKKdO4LxcTAwvHEbocpdvfeWcpoAw5VMgdpto&dib_tag=se&keywords=thinking+in+bets+annie+duke&qid=1750239796&sprefix=thinking+in+bets+annie+duke%2Caps%2C69&sr=8-1] by Annie Duke

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164: Jo Living on how poker can make you better at business 

This week we donned a smelly neon bib, distributed some tiny cones and shouted things like ‘THAT’S NEVER A PEN’ all in order to win the attention of Karen Dobres, one of the sporting world’s most genuine game changers.

Advocating for equal budgets, facilities and recognition in women’s sport with all the tenacity of a crunching, shin-pad obliterating tackle, Karen is the co-founder of Equality FC and the Sistership Network. Her new book, soon to hit the shops, is called Pitch Invasion and tells the tale of her experiences as a feminist on the board of Lewes FC, the world’s first (hurray) and only (boo) equal football club. And, with all the creative energy of a box-to-box midfield dynamo, she’s also helped establish the #CallHimOut initiative, has served as a judge on the UN Women UK Awards, managed a counselling service at Polygram Records and, just because she could, helped arrange the installation of a statue celebrating bisexual female pirates.

It’s an episode where we chatter ‘in and around’ all things relating to her hopes for women’s sport, the impact of equality on crowds and culture and the value of being an outsider. 

This episode is proudly dedicated to Marios Christos Sfantos

Follow Karen on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-dobres-07a54b176/].

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Timestamps

06:10 - From Journalism Aspirations to Modelling
08:45 - Transitioning to Counselling and Music Industry
12:40 - Discovering Women's Football
15:31 - Feminizing the Football Environment at Lewis FC
18:14 - Impact of Equality on Crowds and Culture
24:48 - Challenges Faced by Women in Football
27:25 - Creating a Supportive Community through Football
30:37 - Football as a Vehicle for Social Change
32:06 - The Value of Being an Outsider in Football
34:15 - Pitch Invasion: Karen's Book

Karen's Book Recommendations are:

A Room of One's Own [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Room-Ones-Penguin-Modern-Classics/dp/0241436281/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=5EMKN2OFJT00&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.93toNcnJU8LlVeCNd0SSugS1PjBjHrIJRsuoMcjLf-] by Virginia Woolf
Why Men Win at Work [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Men-Win-Work-Inequality/dp/1910022497/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3KQU5TERGTOMO&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.EeEXC0z1cwIfFF7vTCjHWRD1Hv_lRYu-rk8GRiKO2GHKzi4QjCZWMwPLMzo6QhE-] by Jill Whitty Collins

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163: Karen Dobres on a game-changing approach to women’s football

This week we kept on adding more and more and more irrelevant attachments to our so-called brief, in order to earn ourselves a swift rebuke from the marketing world’s Brief Batman – Howard Ibach.

Inventor of the Creative Brief Mastery program, Howard is on a mission to make marketing briefs more meaningful. An advocate for clear thinking, proper collaboration and the single minded-proposition, Howard has been helping marketers all over the world put their bad briefing habits to bed (and then press a pillow over their drooling faces). He’s also an instructor at the Association of National Advertisers’ Marketing Training and Development Centre, the author of the brilliant ‘How To Write An Inspired Brief’ and host of the ‘Brief Bros’ podcast – confirming his undisputed status as the industry’s beefiest brief brain.

In this episode, Howard will pick the art of briefing down to its rickety bones, sharing his invaluable expertise on what the perfect brief should say, be and do.

This episode is proudly dedicated to Tom Jordan.

Follow Howard on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/howardibach/]. 

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Timestamps

03:45 - Lessons from Stonemasonry
06:14 - Path to Writing and Advertising
08:36 - The Influence of Advertising on Howard
12:29 - The Importance of a Good Brief
16:12 - Issues with Copying Client Briefs
19:49 - The Disconnect Between Clients and Agencies
24:24 - Collaboration in Brief Writing
32:13 - Commonalities in Effective Briefs
46:02 - Banishment of Purpose Advertising

Howards Book Recommendations are:

Chew with Your Mind Open [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chew-Your-Mind-Open-Advertising/dp/0578917920/ref=sr_1_2?crid=24E2RW838TPU3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4iR2zlrPjNFDbWfX8H7E9ZueQA04P5u2rPi6EAYIUfG_rjPOVr1C4xkV-PdXs4Yb1C2P9IvxV0IrToh71PLkh_Juw4851rKMD01LPvgjBjSP5iWHZgNTrLQ8270gosi5An1a-eAN1rb8lKaW5Kojyz9lK8V0TJBvi_4NrVIs7K1ZF_AsPYYyveMK10mvtfm4spDQpOpcgajDPsAHWWDyr3LSxpHGtA74VrJj_nP0wQo.J0xHEkXMBpDMYbPD2-vOAnXq1e40sgZLwixcfqcnY90&dib_tag=se&keywords=cameron+day&qid=1746001011&sprefix=camera+day%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-2] by Cameron Day
Spittin' Chiclets [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spittin-Chiclets-Advertising-Survival-MANAGING-ebook/dp/B0B8LN9PW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=24E2RW838TPU3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4iR2zlrPjNFDbWfX8H7E9ZueQA04P5u2rPi6EAYIUfG_rjPOVr1C4xkV-PdXs4Yb1C2P9IvxV0IrToh71PLkh_Juw4851rKMD01LPvgjBjSP5iWHZgNTrLQ8270gosi5An1a-eAN1rb8lKaW5Kojyz9lK8V0TJBvi_4NrVIs7K1ZF_AsPYYyveMK10mvtfm4spDQpOpcgajDPsAHWWDyr3LSxpHGtA74VrJj_nP0wQo.J0xHEkXMBpDMYbPD2-vOAnXq1e40sgZLwixcfqcnY90&dib_tag=se&keywords=cameron+day&qid=1746001011&sprefix=camera+day%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-3] by Cameron Day
Stones & Sticks [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stones-Sticks-Advertising-Survival-Altitudes-ebook/dp/B0DBRVB8D3/ref=sr_1_1?crid=24E2RW838TPU3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4iR2zlrPjNFDbWfX8H7E9ZueQA04P5u2rPi6EAYIUfG_rjPOVr1C4xkV-PdXs4Yb1C2P9IvxV0IrToh71PLkh_Juw4851rKMD01LPvgjBjSP5iWHZgNTrLQ8270gosi5An1a-eAN1rb8lKaW5Kojyz9lK8V0TJBvi_4NrVIs7K1ZF_AsPYYyveMK10mvtfm4spDQpOpcgajDPsAHWWDyr3LSxpHGtA74VrJj_nP0wQo.J0xHEkXMBpDMYbPD2-vOAnXq1e40sgZLwixcfqcnY90&dib_tag=se&keywords=cameron+day&qid=1746001011&sprefix=camera+day%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-1] by Cameron Day

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162: Howard Ibach on why better briefs breed better results.

This week we have been exclusively watching 'Magic Mike', shaking a Magic 8-Ball and listening to '24k Magic' by Bruno Mars (which is just awful) in order to win the slightly nervous attention of Adam Ferrier, founder of Thinkerbell; the thinkers, tinkers and practitioners of ‘measured magic’. 

A psychology brain sat on top of some sturdy strategy bones, Adam is a rare voice of reason in the largely barmy brand world – as well as being the chief sceptic when it comes to the industry obsession with ‘the customer’. He’s also the author of more superb books, including ‘The Advertising effect: How to Change Behaviour’ and supplements all this talk-talking with some serious walk-walking through his work that brings marketing science and creative thinking together. 

In this episode Adam shares his expertise on brands who forget how to be brands, why every business problem is a behaviour change problem and the forgotten benefits of simply fitting in.

This episode is very proudly dedicated to Anne Young.
 
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 Follow Adam on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamferrier/?originalSubdomain=au]

Timestamps

09:16 - The impact of D&AD annuals on Adam's career choice
11:19 - Transition from forensic psychology to marketing
16:12 - The perils of customer obsession
22:57 - Balancing brand and customer needs
25:11 - The importance of consumer research


Adam’s Book Recommendations are:

Stop Listening to Your Customers [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-Listening-Your-Customer-Ferrier/dp/0730370577/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0] by Adam Ferrier:
The Advertising Effect: How to Change Behaviour [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advertising-Effect-How-Change-Behaviour/dp/0195593928/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3RFGC9BB730HA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.my2-AVIWxwIGbhBMhQ2_MQ.3WO3Vk5otnfJp0A3OO-fFGnMC0y9TTrm1u7c23-ultA&dib_tag=se] by Adam Ferrier: 
Love's Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loves-Executioner-Irvin-D-Yalom-ebook/dp/B00AG8HJ4G?ref_=ast_author_dp&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.lGFoZLlyGsRSmsZahbA8GyeQ54JZMYPW9rO7g3xphv5_XP8Y_ZS53SKdS6--vctzuT5E2gdF0K6VUPYDkcZi8XA4qHutOG_] by Irvin Yalom: 
Existential Psychotherapy [https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0465021476?ref_=ast_author_ofdp] by Irvin Yalom: 
Here and Now: Tales from the Heart [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hour-Heart-Irvin-Yalom/dp/0349436711/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.LE15E9KWzYI371gAr6WKGg.1Wfp7bBuIVjH4IDxzrln9ChvfZEZgs2kAIKM7JT6iw0&qid=1744626829&sr=8-1]  by Irvin Yalom: 

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161: Adam Ferrier on why listening to your customers can be bad for your brand

The go-to podcast for anyone trying to make sense of the world of Marketing, Advertising and beyond. In an industry that is a minefield of utter bollocks, we aim to capture our heroes and allies from the front line to have a chin-wag with. It’s like Pokémon Go, with the single but vital exception that it’s not a short-term bandwagon of shite. UK TOP 5 CHARTS | US TOP 200 CHARTS | RELEASED FORTNIGHTLY

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