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One on One - Liz Angeli
355 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Gretchen interviews Liz Angeli.
Liz (she/her/hers) is a college professor, writer, spiritual director, and retreat leader. An Associate Professor of English at Marquette University, Liz has accompanied young adults through personal and professional transitions. At Marquette, she teaches a range of professional and technical writing classes and integrates elements of Ignatian discernment into them all. Her research interests include the overlaps of Ignatian discernment, humanities education, and career readiness.
In her spiritual direction practice, she feels especially called to work with LGBTQIA+ seekers and those who are in the discernment process. Liz holds a PhD from Purdue University and a certificate in spiritual guidance from the Siena Retreat Center, and she is currently pursuing her MA in Counseling for Ministry at Loyola University Chicago's Institute of Pastoral Studies. You can learn more about her work at lizangeli.com.
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If this episode hits home and you feel you have your own story to share, email Gretchen at .
Follow along and contribute to the conversation @lovedasyouarepod on Instagram.
Find more from Gretchen Crowder @gdcrowder as well as at gretchencrowder.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Loved as You Are, Nick Nation Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to Loved as You Are, Nick Nation podcast with me, Gretchen Crowder. I am so glad you are here. Well, it's been a minute. I think it's true for many of us that January was a full month, not only full of obligations, but also full of sickness as well. For the first time since I was a child, I got taken down with strep throat and it lasted way longer than it should. Once I got better, I was playing catch up like crazy.
Meet Liz Angeli: Educator and Spiritual Director
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm sure many of you can relate, but I'm back and ready to bring you my latest conversation with Liz Angeli. Liz is a college professor, writer, spiritual director, and retreat leader. An associate professor of English at Marquette University, Liz has accompanied young adults through personal and professional transitions. At Marquette, she teaches a range of professional and technical writing classes and integrates elements of Ignatian discernment into them all.
00:00:56
Speaker
Her research interests include the overlap of Ignatian discernment, humanity education, and career readiness. In her spiritual direction practice, she feels especially called to work with LGBTQIA plus seekers and those who are in the discernment process. Liz holds a PhD from Purdue University and a certificate in spiritual guidance from the Sienna retreat center. And she is currently pursuing her MA in counseling for ministry at Loyola University Chicago's Institute of pastoral studies.
00:01:26
Speaker
You can learn more about her work at her website linked in the show notes.
The Mission: Exploring God's Identity
00:01:32
Speaker
Liz and I met this past summer as we journeyed through an online course together and she enthusiastically accepted my invitation to come on the podcast and discuss being loved as you are. This conversation covers a range of topics and her passion for exploring her spirituality and God's role in her life comes through in every experience she shares. This conversation reminded me why I started this podcast.
00:01:55
Speaker
because I knew that I could come to know and share who God is and how God loves us if I was first willing to listen to the diversity of stories and experiences of real human beings just trying to figure it all out. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So here we go.
Liz's Academic and Spiritual Journey
00:02:44
Speaker
Welcome Liz, I just finished introducing you to my listeners and in my introduction I told them that you and I met just this semester in an online course and you are currently enrolled in an MA in counseling for ministry at Loyola Chicago. Can I start by asking you what inspired you to go back to grad school after receiving a terminal degree?
00:03:03
Speaker
Yes, that's a fantastic question and one that I get frequently from people. When I went to undergrad at Marquette, fabulous Ignatius Jesuit institution where I currently teach, I was a psychology major and I wanted to be a clinical psychologist
00:03:20
Speaker
But I knew after graduation, I was not ready to pursue being a clinical psychologist. And now I'm really glad that I didn't because living life and having experiences makes me a better spiritual director, is going to make me a better counselor in the ministry context.
00:03:36
Speaker
But so I followed all the yeses and the directions that I was feeling when I was in my 20s and got my master's in rhetoric and writing with a focus on teaching English as a second language. Then I got my PhD in rhetoric and technical communication with a focus on health care. And a couple of years after that, I graduated in 2012 from Purdue, and then I went to spiritual guidance training in 2018.
00:04:03
Speaker
And I fell in love with spiritual direction. I mean, it just felt like, oh, this is what I have been longing for. I honestly think my whole life, I mean, when I felt called to be, you know, a clinical psychologist, that was the only framework I had in my, you know, 10 year old, 12 year old mind of this is the field you go into to support people through
00:04:29
Speaker
the journey that is life. And I, you know, started after I graduated from my spiritual direction training program, which was a two year program, it was a certificate, it wasn't a graduate degree, which at that time was perfect, because I was like, I don't need another degree. I'm done. You know, I school is great. I love school. But this is this is good for now.
00:04:51
Speaker
I really was kind of delightfully surprised how much I loved my spiritual direction practice.
Spiritual Direction and LGBTQIA+ Integration
00:04:58
Speaker
And then I was getting invited to do discernment-based workshops and integrate that into my teaching that I do at Marquette. And I was being invited to talk about LGBTQIA plus spirituality and all these things. And I was coming up against growing edges.
00:05:18
Speaker
where I thought, okay, I want to do something about this. And I, you know, discerned going back to get another PhD in clinical psychology. I looked at CID programs, I looked at MDivs, you know, I got accepted to a seminary and realized, you know, theology is not where
00:05:36
Speaker
I'm feeling called, you know, I think the theology is great. It's really important. That's not, that's not what really makes me feel alive and free. And then when I found the program at Loyola through the Institute of Pastoral Studies, where we both are, but oh, this is a spiritually informed counseling degree, which is what I have been longing for, for 21 years.
00:05:57
Speaker
since I started college. And as much as I love Marquette and I love my psychology degree, we had no spirituality in any of our coursework, which I think is a real disservice to psychology students at Ignatian, you know, just what I should say, universities.
00:06:14
Speaker
And it's been, I mean, I've been only in the program for one semester and it has been invigorating and life affirming and, you know, it's, doors are already starting to open that I didn't know existed. And I've kind of, I mean, I'm joking when I say this, but there's part of me that feels like I have three degrees and they're all wrong.
00:06:37
Speaker
I have a terminal degree that took a lot of time and a lot of work. And it's the wrong degree. It's like, nope, it's not the wrong degree. This is discernment, my friend, speaking to myself. And I'm glad for the journey that I've had because it's put me exactly where I am today, which is a really, really great place.
00:06:59
Speaker
Well, and I appreciate what you said about having a bunch of wrong degrees to lead you to the right one, because I started off, I majored in math and undergraduate.
Gretchen's Journey from Engineering to Education
00:07:08
Speaker
And I taught math for a decade. And the first years of college, I majored in aerospace engineering. And I always go back to those two years and I say, look, I didn't finish it.
00:07:18
Speaker
But those two years helped form me. I was never meant to be an engineer, but everything I learned in those two years about fortitude and asking for help, all sorts of things really made me capable of doing other things later on. The other thing I appreciate about what you're doing is
00:07:39
Speaker
As a high school educator, I think we can always do a better job of making sure that all Catholic educators, all Jesuit educators have experience in ministry, experience in prayer, spiritual conversation, because those things come up. But also it's a through line that you can have no matter what your academic subject is. And so to hear you say that also about universities, I went to Notre Dame and I know that my aerospace engineering
00:08:09
Speaker
teachers and my math teachers did not talk about spirituality, but I think it would have enhanced their interactions with the students, enhanced kind of the conversation and the ability of relating with the students and things that are often more technical and more distant than other subject areas.
Impact of Spirituality in Education
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that and that's spot on. And you know, we're at Marquette is one of the leading engineering institutions, you know, in the United States. And I taught a discernment class a couple years ago, and I'm in I'm in English, I'm in English department. So all my classes are writing intensive. And I, I see writing as a way to discern. And I had an engineering student
00:08:50
Speaker
in that class and I, you know, he was a fifth year engineer, I had took extra classes and stuff and hard worker and it was one of those, well, this fills my writing intensive requirements, so this will be fine. And I just, I always trust who shows up into my classes like that. It's like, you know, you're going to teach me, I'm going to teach you, we're going to teach each other.
00:09:09
Speaker
At the end of that semester, and I actually had to take an unexpected leave of absence halfway through that class because my dad died. And I had a graduate student from the previous semester that I taught the grad version of the class, stepped in, took over the class. And I let my students know, you know, right after spring break, I said, I'm taking a leave of absence. I'm not checking my email until May 16th. I wish you all the best, you know, take good care. And on May 16th, when I opened up my email,
00:09:36
Speaker
there was an email from that engineering student who said, I did not think this class was going to be anything that was relevant or important. But he said, this class changed who I am. I'm a different person now than I was in January. And I
00:09:54
Speaker
I mean, that was a moment where I just kind of stopped in my tracks and just savored the moment of, you know, how this is the universe at work, the divine at work. And that's why we need spirituality in all areas of education, not just theology or the humanities. I mean, it needs to be everywhere.
00:10:18
Speaker
While you make me think if freshman year in college, besides the other freshman requirements, I could have taken a class on discernment, what I have spent two years in aerospace engineering, you know, what I've gone into math.
00:10:32
Speaker
what would have been different if I had already started knowing what those tools were. And especially at a Jesuit university like you teach at to have a class like that freshman year, that might be really life-changing for students as they go through their experience. Because you can always go seek out the Jesuits and go seek out retreats, but it's not necessarily something that's a required part of everyone's experience.
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah. And we do have the theology classes that, you know, the professors teach the spiritual exercises and they do all that stuff. And I know students who are in those classes and they say they're life changing, but, you know, they're, they're not required. They're not, you know, it's hard, it's hard to know what you don't know in any, at any age, but I think really at college it's, and that's really where I see myself coming in. Now it's, I'm teaching the classes that
00:11:24
Speaker
I needed to have and I wanted to have but I didn't know. I knew on some level that I was longing for them but I didn't have the language, I didn't have the framework, I didn't you know have the training to know what I was missing and so it's been it's just been it's been it's been great and I'm really grateful for Loyola to just sort of add to what I'm able to to do for our students and for you know my own my own um directees and my spiritual direction practice too
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm so grateful that they offer online courses because as you know, we meet a lot of people we would not normally meet if we weren't in these courses online from a distance. I mean, I'm in Texas and you live by Marquette, right? Because you're teaching there? Yes, I'm in Milwaukee. So I'm not that far from Chicago, so it's doable to do the out-of-the-art program, but I just thought I am not spending an hour and a half on the train one way.
00:12:20
Speaker
you know, to sit in class for 90 minutes to two hours. I'm really grateful that they have the online option. It's been a game changer. Well, and especially since so many people seek out spiritual direction and retreats and that kind of conversation online these days to be able to experience it that way helps us to be able to do that with other people in the future. Yeah, that's true.
Spiritual Direction in the Digital Age
00:12:49
Speaker
It's funny, all my Direct E's that I meet online, even the ones who are in Milwaukee with me, it's easier. And it's funny because in my training program, pre-2020, it was, you will not meet your Direct E's on Zoom. You will not talk to them over the phone. This is an in-person practice. You have to learn how to pay attention to the body. You have to learn how to pay attention to energy. And you can do all that stuff virtually, it turns out. So yeah, it's been a wonderful tool.
00:13:18
Speaker
And for some people, it's more comfortable to do it with that distance, right? Yeah, I think so.
00:13:24
Speaker
Well, I appreciate you saying that you get that question a lot. I too get that question a lot because I keep going back to grad school as well. We must be in love with academics as well as with our subject matter.
Who is God? Insights and Reflections
00:13:35
Speaker
But for purposes of this podcast, I usually do start with the question because I think it's really important for people to hear all the different ways that people answer this question from all different stories, from all different locations, all different walks of life. So who is God to you and how did you come to that understanding?
00:13:53
Speaker
That's a question I've been wrestling with for the past few years, and it's always evolving for me, you know, who God is, is evolving. For me, God is energy, God is connection. God is all forms of life on this planet. You, me, the water that is in my water bottle, my dog who is right there, the fish that live in my aquarium, the trees, it's about connection and compassion and
00:14:22
Speaker
engaging with all the life force that's around us. And I grew up Catholic, so my idea of God, you know, it's funny, I was reflecting on this question before we hopped on to record. And I remember the church that I went to here actually in Milwaukee,
00:14:41
Speaker
in the back of the altar is a statue of the risen Jesus. It's all gold. It's beautiful. And around Jesus's body is the Trinity. So it's just it's a triangle. And that
00:14:56
Speaker
I can remember as a kid looking at that triangle saying, that's God. God is not a person. God is not nothing. God is all-encompassing. And when you're 10 trying to understand the Trinity, it's like, what is this? This doesn't make sense. But that always resonated with me.
00:15:19
Speaker
And I, you know, as I'm, you know, lesbian, I'm queer, I really could not use the word God for a long time. You know, God and the Bible and religion were used as tools by people I really loved and cared about to tell me that I was less than human and that I was going to hell and that, you know, my, my quote unquote,
00:15:42
Speaker
lifestyle was a choice and not something that was part of who I am. I worked a lot with my spiritual director to heal and to be able to use the word God. And my spiritual direction training program, which I completed through the Sienna retreat center in Racine, Wisconsin, it's ecumenical. The retreat center is run by the Dominican sisters, but
00:16:07
Speaker
The program itself is grounded in the universe story. So it's very much based in cosmology and science and spirituality. And that resonated. That resonated, you know, thinking that, you know, we are all made of stardust. We are all made of stars, to quote Moby. I thought, yeah, this is this is bigger than Catholicism. Like, this feels like spirituality and what God is.
00:16:31
Speaker
And that that gave me the the spiritual guidance training program gave me the way kind of back in to feeling safe using the word God to really kind of claim God as my own, not as something that I was taught and tested on in Catholic school. And then, you know,
00:16:52
Speaker
I really feel like I developed a personal relationship with, you know, I called God loving energy for a long time. And then I just, I feel like I, I found my way back to loving energy because loving energy never left, even though I was like, I'm going to go over here for a while because I don't know about you. And I just, there's something that doesn't feel right. It's like, okay, now I've got the things sorted out and I'm healing and I'm, you know, learning. So yeah.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah, I like, first of all, you said it's hard when you're 10 or 11 to try to understand the Trinity. I think it's hard when you're 42 to understand the Trinity, you know, to try to be able to not only understand it, but explain it to someone else. But the thing that always resonated with me is that God is relationship, right? So that triangle that you described, because it has three sides that are all connected, that this relationship
00:17:44
Speaker
just kind of flows from one person of the Trinity to the other person to the other person. And so when we think about the relationship of the Trinity, we think about as human beings, we have healthy and we have unhealthy relationships. We have relationships that are broken and then relationships that are repaired and healed. I always see the Trinity as God showing us
00:18:05
Speaker
what relationship should be and what we should be striving for, what a healthy relationship is, what a relationship is that loves us as we are no matter what. And so what I appreciate specifically about Ignatian spirituality and Ignatian discernment is that you can meet God where you're at and then try to figure out through all the steps of discernment
00:18:29
Speaker
who God is to you and then reunite with who God is to you and community with other people, right? And the other thing is we ebb and flow our whole life with our understanding of God, our closeness to God. But I think the other thing that the Trinity relationship gives us is that God's relationship with us is never broken, right? It's always us trying to repair and to develop that relationship back to God.
00:18:52
Speaker
I don't know if that makes sense to your experience. Oh, yeah. Because it's co-created. And, you know, as you were talking about, you know, Ignatius, it just reminded me, you know, finding God in all things. And it's one reason I love Ignatian spirituality is because, you know, we find God in all things. And one of my colleagues in theology, his name's Connor Kelly, he's
00:19:15
Speaker
brilliant educator, brilliant theologian. We were working on a chapter for a book on technical communication and ethics, and I was invited to write the spirituality chapter. And the editor said, I want you to write about divine command and universal ethics. And I said, I don't know anything about that. I said, you need a theologian to write this. I said, but this kind of sounds like discernment. I can write about that. And so Connor and I were talking
00:19:46
Speaker
He, we got to the, you know, finding God in all things. And he said, the way I explain this to my students is we find God in all things because we recognize God in items that remind us and bring us back to God. So he said, it's like you have a relationship with him and you have to know God first, right? So like, you know, I mean, I'm just talking about, you know, my dad, I see things that remind me of him. I hear songs that remind me of him. I smell things that remind me of him. And they remind me of him because
00:20:10
Speaker
and preparing to write this chapter.
00:20:16
Speaker
I've already had that previous relationship. And so I love that concept of, okay, well, you know, you see a squirrel and that reminds you of God. Okay, well, what is it about that squirrel that connects you back to this relationship to this co-creation, you know, co-creation. And I just always thought that was such a beautiful explanation of, you know,
Seeing God in Creation and Relationships
00:20:40
Speaker
that phrase and why, you know, it's, I know sometimes people are like, oh, isn't that pagan finding God on all things? Like, it's like, well, if it is okay, you know, I don't have problems with that, but, you know, it's, but it's like, no, it's, God's everywhere.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, and God created everything, right? So when you create something, a piece of you is left behind, just like when my one of my sons loves art, and every time that he does something artistic, I'm like, I feel like you just left a piece of yourself behind in that painting or in that, whatever you made out of cardboard that I don't understand, but you think it's beautiful. So I feel like that's the same with God, like God
00:21:20
Speaker
created all of us, created all of creation. And by doing that, God left a piece of God behind in all of that. So of course, we're going to find God everywhere. And sometimes it's helpful when human relationships have been fractured, that we can find God in other things that can lead us back to figuring out what human relationships should look like, what healthy relationships should look like, and how we can reform those.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yes, yeah, I think that has been a powerful way to see the world. And I think that's been a real gift. It reminds me of a story. Is it OK for me to elaborate on this? OK. So I know in class I shared this, and I've written a tiny, tiny bit about this on my website. But my uncle was murdered five years ago. He was a landlord. His tenant killed him over a $30 rent increase.
00:22:16
Speaker
There is a lot that has happened in those five years since my Uncle Bill was murdered and Jason, the man who killed him, was found guilty, not guilty due to mental illness. And so Jason is never going to go to jail. He's at a mental health minimum security facility right now, getting the mental care that he needs, getting the support that he needs. And we had a hearing
00:22:41
Speaker
Earlier this month? No, I don't remember the dates. It was a couple weeks ago, but we had a hearing for Jason's conditional release because his forensic psychologist feels that he is rehabilitated enough to join the world. I still have a lot of feelings about that. I'm holding
00:23:04
Speaker
you know, rage about the fact that this happened. And Jason has, you know, a 20 year history of felonies before he killed my uncle. And the system has failed Jason multiple times. And therefore the system has failed everybody else who Jason has impacted. And he has not gotten the mental health care that he needed long time ago. But this time when we went to court earlier this month, this was the first time that my family was given the opportunity to speak.
00:23:33
Speaker
In five years, we've never been given the opportunity to say anything. My uncle Bill is my mom's brother, my mom's oldest brother, and so my mom read a statement, I read a statement, and my cousin read a statement who was my uncle's daughter. And when I got to the other side of the glass, I was sitting next to the prosecutor, the assistant DA who's been representing my uncle.
00:23:56
Speaker
Jason wasn't there in person, he was there on Zoom. And I turned to look at him and I knew he could see me because the camera was there. And I feel like I saw him as a person. The first time I ever saw him was about seven days after he killed my uncle and it was scary. I've never felt such dark, evil energy in a room ever.
00:24:26
Speaker
And it was draining for a lot of reasons. And that was one of the reasons it was just a very, very difficult day. And the more that we progressed through the court system, Jason was on medication and he was seeing a psychiatrist and he said something once in court to his defender. And I just had this moment of
00:24:47
Speaker
Oh my gosh, you poor human. You are mentally ill. You need a lot of help. And then I felt guilty for feeling compassionate towards this man who has taken away one of my favorite people of all time and created this ripple effect in my family that we are still working to heal, I feel like.
00:25:13
Speaker
So a couple weeks ago, after I read my statement and really saw Jason, I was able to see him through the eyes of God.
00:25:22
Speaker
And I thought, you are a human who has every right to live the best life that you can have. And if that means that you have to try to do that out in the world with me and my cousins and my God sons, who are my uncles, my grandchildren,
00:25:45
Speaker
That's how it's going to be. And I have to not live in fear that, you know, I'm not protected anymore. And I have to trust that this will be okay. And as soon as I was able to see him through the eyes of God,
00:26:02
Speaker
The rage lessened significantly that I had towards everything, him, the system, the people who failed Jason for the past 20 years. And I felt empowered and I felt peace.
00:26:20
Speaker
I never thought that I would be one of these people who would like, you know, you see true crime stories and everything. And I used to watch them and I don't anymore because that's my family's real life. And I, I just can't make entertainment out of somebody's trauma and pain. I thought, oh my gosh, if this happened to my family, I would I'd be, you know, burning down the courthouse and I would be seeking vengeance. And this would, you know, my I would not let this happen to my family. And
00:26:48
Speaker
Here we are. And I said what was on my heart, but I know that I wouldn't be able to, I wouldn't be here.
00:27:00
Speaker
you know, with the level of kind of acceptance and compassion, had it not been for spiritual, my spiritual director, my therapist, you know, my friends, my family, and just and really, Ignatian spirituality of this, you know, Ignatian indifference. Okay, as you can have all the feelings that you want, but you are not the one who's in control of this. And
00:27:26
Speaker
what is my spiritual director has told me many times, God wastes nothing. And so I think, okay, well, this is pretty, this is a doozy of a situation to make sense of and, you know, but Jason and I are, we are now connected for the rest of our lives. And, you know, kind of seeing him as a teacher in some ways, you know,
00:27:53
Speaker
I don't know. That's what was coming to mind. No, I appreciate that. A couple things. The first is when you said, can I tell a story? I was thinking before I got on to do this recording, I just published another episode today of a different person's story.
00:28:09
Speaker
I think the only way we come to know each other, but also the only way we come to know God is by being open to listening to other people's stories, right? Especially people who have a story that you don't also share, right? So you can see yet another perspective, yet another way of viewing God, not only God as a distant divine figure, but also as God and another person. The other thing I appreciate it from your story is when we talk about forgiveness,
00:28:39
Speaker
Sometimes we feel like, no, I can't possibly forgive another person because we're thinking about the other person not deserving that or not being ready for that or not receiving that well. But in the end of your story, I was thinking forgiveness is what heals you, right? So you were able to let go of things that were keeping you from living a full life, right? From keeping you from moving on.
00:29:01
Speaker
because you were able to take God's hand and work on forgiving this person. So I think that's a really beautiful example of what forgiveness can do, but also you said it takes a really long time. And that's also important for people to hear too, right? It may take five years, it may take 10 years, it may take dozens of years, right? It's kind of a journey. And that God is with you through that whole journey, right? Even when you don't feel it.
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah, and it's interesting, I don't feel or know that I'm at forgiveness fully yet. I would like to pursue restorative justice with him, and some of my family members are potentially interested in this too, because I would like to have a conversation with him. I've never heard him speak, I've never heard him apologize, I've never heard him take ownership for what he's done, and that would be
00:29:59
Speaker
helpful to hear. But I at least see that he's not deserving of living a miserable existence in solitary confinement or whatever, which I mean, there was a moment where that's what I wanted for him. I was like, and I have relatives who want to bring back the death penalty. And I told them, I said,
00:30:23
Speaker
For me, that's not justice. There will be no justice with this. I mean, it's terrible and awful. And the only thing that I can do is, you know, seek forgiveness and work towards, you know, and really as inviting, loving energy to help with this and, you know, give me strength, words, wisdom, whatever, to help myself through this and my family. You know, because it's been, it continues to be a journey.
00:30:53
Speaker
Well, and also as you're pursuing an MA in counseling for ministry, you have this yet another touchstone experience that may help somebody else in the future that's in his situation that didn't have
00:31:06
Speaker
kind of the interaction or the encounter early enough to change their direction, to change their course of life. But you and more people who are not only helping in spirituality and spiritual direction, but also who are gonna help in the mental health fields as well, you get an opportunity to really make a difference. And I think that story will help embolden you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that.
00:31:33
Speaker
It makes me think because you said Ignatian spirituality really helped you not only in this situation but also in your understanding of God in general.
Ignatian Spirituality: A Personal Discovery
00:31:41
Speaker
When did you come to know about Ignatian spirituality? Was it in college for the first time? Was it before that? You know, that's another question I was thinking about and I don't know. I don't remember the first time that I learned about it. I do remember
00:31:58
Speaker
When I was considering applying for college, I remember my dad and my grandparents, so my dad's parents, always talked about Jesuits. And I was like, who are these Jesuits? We're friends with a bunch of priests, but I know they're not Jesuits. And I had a cousin, distant cousin, who was a Jesuit for a hot minute in Chicago. But my dad just would always say, there's no education like a Jesuit education.
00:32:23
Speaker
And I thought, OK, well, what is special about a Jesuit education? And he's like, Liz, they're going to see you as a whole person. You are going to get trained in the liberal arts. So you will be able to have a conversation with anybody who you meet. You will have common touchstones of, you know, having read about philosophy and theology and English and history. And I thought, OK, well, I want to be a holistic, well-rounded person, you know, that because connection is really important to me. Relationships important to me.
00:32:51
Speaker
But I didn't know who St. Ignatius was, I just knew that Milwaukee had Marquette University and it was run by, you know, priests. So I even, you know, even when I was at Marquette,
00:33:05
Speaker
I don't know if I knew what Ignatian spirituality was. That's hard for me to say because I want all of my students to know what Ignatian spirituality is. And they do. I mean, if you take writing for Health and Medicine with me, we are going to talk about St. Ignatius. That's just the way it's going to be.
00:33:23
Speaker
But I don't think it was until I came back to Marquette as a faculty member in 2016 and went on my first silent retreat and met who ended up being my spiritual director in a hallway of that retreat and just starting to have a conversation of, oh yeah, there's this guy named Saint Ignatius. Oh yeah, he started the Jesuits.
00:33:48
Speaker
Oh, yeah, he lived 500 years ago. And, but, you know, once I learned about it, I knew that Ignatian spirituality had been with me forever. And, you know, I was in, in addition to really feeling
00:34:02
Speaker
aligned and resonate with Ignatius. I was an associate member of the School Sisters of St. Francis, who are headquartered here in Milwaukee, and they're Franciscan. And when I had to do my discernment to decide to be an associate or whether or not to actually join the order, which I had been discerning, Franciscan charism is beautiful. I love creation. I love animals. I think caring for people is important.
00:34:31
Speaker
But I never felt that shimmer of resonance like I have with St. Ignatius. There's something that for me just has more vibrancy and life and energy and movement with the Ignatian charism and the Nation spirituality more than
00:34:51
Speaker
the Franciscan, as much as I love it, and those nuns are, they are my people. And that's why I'm always mad. It's like, I'm really upset that I can't be a Jesuit. This is deeply unfair, and I'm not gonna change it in this lifetime, so I'm just gonna have to let that go.
00:35:09
Speaker
You know, it's interesting. I feel like I've learned a lot about St. Francis ever since Pope Francis took St. Francis' name because in both of the encyclicals that he wrote, one on the environment and then the other one, Brothers and Sisters All, he referenced
00:35:26
Speaker
in the introductions he referenced St. Francis and really how St. Francis connects to why he was passionate about these topics. So I do feel like even though the same thing, I don't feel like called to Franciscan spirituality like I do at Nation Spirituality, there's such great overlap. And a lot of it is about love of creation, love of other people, and that idea that God is loving creation and other people as well.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think that is the through line, you know, of the two of them. And they're just their orders that are out in the world, you know, doing stuff. And, you know, the schools of St. Francis were the second order in the United States to get rid of their habits after Vatican II. I mean, they were just like, we're done. We want to be like the people who we minister to. You know, it's we're out and we're taking our names back.
00:36:19
Speaker
You know, and they were, I mean, they're just, they're an incredible, incredible group of humans. So, but there's a lot of that sort of in and of the world with both of those two. Yeah. And I think you said it earlier in this conversation that you felt like you couldn't effectively minister to other people effectively.
00:36:39
Speaker
spiritually counsel other people until you had more experiences yourself. So I think that maybe one of the things that we're so drawn to with the Jesuits, but also with the Franciscans is that they have experience in the world and they draw on that experience to then be able to help other people in spiritual matters, which is so effective when you're talking to somebody that really has lived in a variety of places, seen a variety of things, and can bring all that to the table. Yeah, that is very true.
00:37:10
Speaker
That was very true. Well, you enthusiastically agreed to give on to a podcast called Loved As
Embracing Identity and Authenticity
00:37:17
Speaker
You Are. Can you point to a particular moment or story where this understanding of being loved as you are started to resonate and become real for you? Yeah.
00:37:29
Speaker
I know the exact moment where that felt real and it was when I named my sexual identity as lesbian and queer. Like that has been, one thing I wish we talked more about when we talk about discernment is sexual identity because I think that that is, and I mean that's really where queer folks have a lot of experience. It's like, yeah, we know what authenticity feels like because we have had to,
00:37:57
Speaker
figure out why am I not like society is projecting patriarchy, white heterosexuality, all that stuff. And it was, as I started really discerning like, okay, something I've always felt
00:38:14
Speaker
I don't like saying I always felt different because I think everybody feels like that. You know, we're just unique, unique beings, but there was just something that never felt right when I was dating cisgender men and I was married to a man for just under three years.
00:38:32
Speaker
just things just did not feel right. And finally, when I gave myself permission to really start exploring, I felt, I'll never forget this, I told my spiritual director, I said, I feel like I have been wearing a giant cape of feathers, and it is slowly starting to lift.
00:38:50
Speaker
And he was like, feathers. That's interesting. I said it is because feathers are light. And so this cape is not going to take that much to get to, you know, move. But it's been here and it's been weighing me down. And I think I've been letting it weigh me down because I just haven't figured out how to take it off.
00:39:10
Speaker
And when I started, you know, dating, dating women and it's like, oh, you know, I'm afraid to call myself lesbian because that word in particular has been used derogatory around me since I was a young child. I mean, we have in my family and thankfully never my parents. I am so grateful for the parents I have because they
00:39:32
Speaker
open, loving, warm. They are the second parents to many of my closest friends. I mean, my parents always said, you know, we've got two kids, but we really have probably about 15, you know, between like my closest friends and my brother's closest friends. But, you know, I come from a family of very strong, independent women, and some of those women never got married. And so it was always, oh, hush, hush, you know, so-and-so's not married because they're lesbian.
00:40:00
Speaker
you know, they're single because they're lesbian. And you know, it's, and I was was like, what is the big deal? Like, who cares? Why is this hush hush? Why is this a huge secret? And
00:40:12
Speaker
And then I started realizing, okay, people got some homophobia that they got to deal with. And even when I rewatch shows from the 90s, I watched How I Met Your Mother for the first time recently. For the first time. For the first time, yeah. And I was shocked in the first season, lesbian is used derogatorily 10 times. Gay men is used derogatorily much less than that. I think it maybe is two or three times.
00:40:41
Speaker
And I just thought, oh yeah, this is why I had that cloak on me because not only was I getting messaging from my family about this, but also from society at large. And I just thought, okay, well then when I started discerning, I thought, okay, well maybe I'm bisexual. I was like, no, that doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm pansexual. Maybe I'm just attracted to the person. I'm not attracted to gender. I was like, gosh,
00:41:09
Speaker
That's not feeling right either. And I'm talking to my spiritual director about this and I said, you know what this is feeling like? I said, I feel like I am holding on to the last semblance of heterosexuality because I am terrified of what happens when I fully let go and just embrace who I feel I really am and just claim it. And so when I did that, the final quote came off.
00:41:37
Speaker
I felt like I had been fully showing up for my life for the first time ever. In high school, I was pretty out there like, I don't care what people think about me and something happened in college where it just completely changed.
00:41:52
Speaker
it. And I just thought, okay, this is what it feels to like, this is what it feels like to fully show up for myself, fully short for other people. And somehow I can feel God's love more than I've ever felt before. And so this messaging of that, you know,
00:42:09
Speaker
being gay is against God's will. I'm like, that's not true. And I know it's not true because I feel it and I know it in my bones. And it just felt like
00:42:23
Speaker
relief and acceptance. And then I felt other people's love in a way that I never felt before. My dad, when I told them, I told my parents, I said, I'm much more likely to have a wife before I'll ever have a husband. And my dad was like, OK, I said, do you hear what I'm telling you? He's like, yeah. He's like, do you want to watch another episode of RuPaul? We were watching Drag Race at the time. And I was like, did you hear what I just told you? He said, yeah.
00:42:52
Speaker
And it's fine. And I said, okay, great. That's awesome. I knew my parents weren't gonna have an issue with it. And my mom said the best thing I think a kid could ever hear. And I was an adult when this happened. And I still think of myself as a kid with my parents. My mom said, seeing what you have been through with your relationships, all that matters to me is that you have a partner who loves you, who treats you with respect, who is honest, and that you feel the same way about.
00:43:21
Speaker
She's like, so whether that's a man, a woman, someone who's trans, she's like, I don't, it does not matter. And I thought, thanks. And I said, thanks. I mean, it was...
00:43:31
Speaker
It was just like, I felt, and I know like my parents and I are very, you know, we're close, we've got a great healthy relationship. And I felt their love even more at that point than I ever thought possible. And you know, that, and my friends, I just have the most incredible group of friends who really are my family. And I think some of them were like, what took you so long?
00:43:55
Speaker
You know, welcome to, you know, the Liz that we have known has been in there since high school. And, you know, it's like, yeah, you know, thanks for supporting me through this, you know, 20 year long discernment. And so I think, you know, I knew that God loved me as I was through the people that I choose to have in my life and to really make my family. I see God in them all the time.
00:44:20
Speaker
you know, whether or not they're religious or spiritual or whatever, I know that that's God showing up for me. I love what you said at the beginning, you use the word authenticity. And I also like the image of a coat of feathers. Because I think that all of us, for a variety of reasons, struggle with authenticity at some point in our lives.
00:44:44
Speaker
And it could be everything from what are we actually meant to do with our life to whether we're supposed to be single or married or, you know, all of these things, what society's expectations are, what our expectations are, what are God's expectations. And so as we struggle with this authenticity, we can always, many of us feel like we have
00:45:05
Speaker
some kind of coat full of feathers or sometimes lead that we are just trying to work through. And so I think even if people don't have your exact story, they can resonate with that idea of how they came to know their true authentic self or how they're still trying to come to know their true authentic self, right?
00:45:25
Speaker
and Ignatian spirituality really gives you, I mean, the spiritual exercises in particular make you wrestle with every part of yourself, right? It makes you figure out what your past, present, and future mean and really engage in one-on-one conversations with God, which I think that we can often
00:45:46
Speaker
be struck by the fact that God has some communal responses to us, but God also has individual responses to us, and we have to honor both. We have to be able to know what God is saying to us individually, as well as what God is saying to us in a more communal way. We have to be able to discern where we see God in those things and where we maybe don't see God in those things and whether or not we should see God in some situations.
00:46:16
Speaker
There's a reason why I chose the theme of being loved as you are, no matter
Perfectionism to Personal Growth
00:46:21
Speaker
what. I think that, first of all, spiritual exercises kind of beat that into my head as I was going through them. But also, I think this is what stands in the way of many of us being able to treat each other well.
00:46:35
Speaker
Our own understanding that someone, God, loves us as we are no matter what, and our own insecurities often are the reason why we take it out on another person or why we treat others not as we would like to be treated.
00:46:54
Speaker
And so I know that I'm constantly working on that understanding that God loves me as I am, particularly when I mess up or particularly when I feel uncertain about something. But I think the more that all of us work on it, the more we'll be able to love others well in maybe a way we couldn't before.
00:47:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I feel like that's, you know, moving into greater freedom, you know, like, for me, perfectionism is, has always been a driving force, a goal, you know, I've really struggled with, with that. And I now when I make mistakes,
00:47:31
Speaker
Sometimes I fall back into my patterns of beating myself up. And, you know, and I'm also like, if you know the Enneagram, I'm a one. Are you? Okay. And I'm, I'm also that doesn't, that doesn't, I love that. I just like, I know sometimes I'm like, yeah, this person might be a one. But I'm also a Virgo. And so I am, I have a, I actually, I see an astrologer who used to be a nun. I see her every year. And when she did my natal chart the first time,
00:48:00
Speaker
I'm a Virgo with Virgo rising. And I saw her and she looked at me and she said, what's your Enneagram number? And I said, I'm a one. And she said, oh my dear, it must be so difficult to be in your head.
00:48:12
Speaker
And I said, yeah, it is. I said, my alarm went off at 5.30 this morning. And I was on summer, quote unquote, summer break. I work over summer, even though, you know, people have this idea that teachers don't do anything over summer. I said, yeah, it's summer. I woke up at 5.30. And my first thought was, why didn't you get up sooner? You should have gotten up earlier because you could be getting more work done.
00:48:33
Speaker
And I don't do that anymore, but I thought that's, I'm like, oh my gosh, this woman is seeing me for who I am and like my real struggles. And now going through the spiritual, I've gone through the spiritual exercises and all the inner work that I have been doing through spiritual direction and therapy and 12-step programs.
00:48:58
Speaker
it's I'm like I can laugh at myself and it's okay and I can be rejected from opportunities that I'm excited about and that's okay and you know it's I know that it's you know change the energy in my classrooms and if the students point out something that's you know wrong on our course management site or something I just say hey you know what thanks for catching that I appreciate that you're paying attention to details I'll fix that right now whereas you know
00:49:25
Speaker
15 years ago, I was too insecure to hear that. It was like, okay, they are critiquing me as a teacher and I'm a terrible human being and I should have caught this and I can't admit that I made a mistake because that'll mean that I'm imperfect and that means I have no value and I have no worth. And it was just this exhausting mental tape that I just don't have anymore. And it's been one of the greatest gifts
00:49:54
Speaker
that I've given to myself is just kind of cut that tape off. And then then, you know, I'm able to see people like you were saying, as being fully human.
00:50:03
Speaker
And when a student needs an extension for a paper, it's like, thank you for having the courage to ask and knowing that that's what you need. When can you get that project in? And they'll say, well, I really just need another 48 hours. Perfect, that's great. I probably won't grade it for another two days anyway, because I've got all these other papers I have to grade, so we're good. So it's just like, for me, that was a lead coat that I didn't know I was wearing. And when the perfectionism sort of started to,
00:50:33
Speaker
you know, dissipate and turn into something that was actually really helpful. I was like, oh my gosh, this is what it feels like to just be a human who makes mistakes and learns from them. How cool is this?
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is something I am constantly working on. I do feel like when I allow myself to make mistakes and it works out okay, you know, I learn a little bit more. A friend of mine sent me when I did the Enneagram test a while back and said, oh, I'm a one. She sent me this, I guess, this group called Sleeping at Last.
00:51:11
Speaker
has the album for every one of them. And I love the lyrics for the one. And in fact, I think it relates to more than just the one, but it was that idea. It says, I want to sing a song worth singing. I'll write an anthem worth repeating. I want to feel the transformation and melody of reformation. I'll hold it all more loosely and yet somehow much more dearly.
00:51:35
Speaker
because I've spent my whole life searching desperately to find out that grace requires nothing of me.
00:51:43
Speaker
I loved the line of grace requiring nothing of me because I think that is the thing. That idea that if we understand that God loves us as we are and is showering us with grace, even if we do nothing to earn it, people will say, well, does that mean that you're saying we don't have to do anything? No, we do nothing to earn the love, but when we accept the love, we want to do more because that's the relationship, right? We want to repay the relationship that God
00:52:12
Speaker
as for us, we want to be partners in that relationship. And so then we want to do things, but we don't have to do anything to be loved by God in the first place. And I've totally forgot about sleeping at last. We covered the Enneagram and my spiritual guidance training program, but I've been working with the Enneagram for about 22 years.
00:52:36
Speaker
I never heard of sleeping at last and we listened to it, you know, as a cohort. And I just thought, this is beautiful, like putting music to this and that line of grace. I mean, I feel like my life, I used to approach my life by clinging tightly.
The Role of Grace and Surrender
00:52:55
Speaker
And it was just this, I have to be in control of everything. And if I'm not in control of everything, my life is going to fall apart. And I mean, it was a product of, you know, my dad was a high function and alcoholic.
00:53:05
Speaker
growing up in an alcoholic household, it was chaos in a lot of ways. I just never knew what I was going to come home to, and I'm the oldest, and so I felt like it was my job to take care of my dad and my mom, and everything was good. If I was in control, everything was good. I was safe.
00:53:25
Speaker
But when I slowly started to realize, okay, you have to open your hands up and let them go in order to let grace and God in. And I was like, well, that's what, and when I started working the 12 steps in Allen on, I'm like, well, this is what surrender is. It's letting God in. It's, you know, instead of keeping God out, because you don't, I had no room in my life to let, and I knew God was trying to come in. I've had extraordinarily powerful moments of,
00:53:53
Speaker
you know, deep knowing and, you know, synchronicities that can only be explained by things that are unexplainable. And, you know, it was that that was that idea of, you know, surrendering as an act of letting letting go into is a phrase one of my spiritual guidance mentors uses. I just thought, Oh, yeah, that's it. Like, it's I have to
00:54:20
Speaker
I know that phrase, you got to get out of your own way, which I struggle with, but it's more like, I like thinking of my hands being open to just whatever is possible. And then I'm a conduit for that. So. So what are the spiritual practices or other practices that you have to help keep your hands open to help keep you remembering that you're loved as you are?
00:54:40
Speaker
I go on silent retreat one to two times a year. That's, I would say, the big practice. I go on a five-day silent retreat every winter, and then a weekend retreat usually once, sometimes twice a year. I find silence to be the most important spiritual practice for myself, and I never thought I would be saying that ever. I mean, someone once called me an extreme extrovert, which, I mean, is true in a lot of ways, but since I started going on silent retreat, I thought,
00:55:10
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I love a quiet house. I love not having the radio on. I love not having stuff on in the background. I just find that loving energy's voice and presence is loudest to me when I have nothing to distract me and pull my attention away. So I would say silence is one of the biggest things.
00:55:36
Speaker
I'm a cyclist. I'm a road cyclist. And that has been really a spiritual practice in trusting my body and connecting with nature and seeing the world in a different way.
Connecting with Divinity through Physical Activity
00:55:52
Speaker
And really, my cycling family has shown me
00:55:57
Speaker
so many instances of God showing up. Like if someone has an injury, they're there. You know, it's, and it's also like, I've done some pretty major bike rides by myself and one ride, it was, it was up until that point, it was the longest ride I'd ever done. I was doing 50 miles in a day and I was on a trail in Illinois. I did not know where it was going to be. No idea where I was going. My best friend, um, one of my best friends was a support for me. She was meeting me like every 15 ish, 20 miles just to make sure that I was okay.
00:56:27
Speaker
But I just remember thinking, what if I get lost? What if I run out of water? What if I get a flat? And every time that I needed assistance, somebody would show up on the trail.
00:56:41
Speaker
and they had exactly what I needed. And that reminds me that I don't have to have all the answers. I can prepare as much as I can. And at some point, God is gonna intervene and remind me that I will have what I need and the universe will provide the rest.
00:57:02
Speaker
And that biking really has been a spiritual practice for me. And it never fails. It never fails. I mean, I got my first flat a couple of years ago and it was a new bike and my friend was with me and we didn't know how to change tire because it was tubeless. It was all this stuff.
00:57:19
Speaker
This guy shows up and he said, do you need help? And I said, yeah, it's a brand new bike. I can't believe I got a flat. These tires aren't supposed to get flats. They're tubeless. They're supposed to self seal. And he said, oh yeah, no problem. He changed the tire. We wanted to give him 20 bucks. He said, nope, I'm good. And my friend said, as he was riding away, my friend said, Hey, what's your name? And he turned away and he said, you know, he turned us and said, Hey, my name's Mike.
00:57:42
Speaker
And that was my dad's name. My dad had died two months before that. And I immediately started crying. And my friend Jen said, that was no mistake. And I said, I know, I know. I said, that is God. And that is my dad making sure that I am always cared for and watched for. Since he can't do it here anymore, you know, in person, I just so like also connecting with my dad has been a spiritual practice too.
00:58:11
Speaker
Yeah. I love that there's such a variety in your spiritual practices because often we think that, oh, running can't be my spiritual practice or doing a group fitness class on the weekend can't be my spiritual practice. But if we truly believe we can find God in all things, then we can find God when we're working out, when we're exercising.
00:58:33
Speaker
The other thing I like about your story with The Flat Tire is that when we start practicing Ignatian spirituality, start practicing finding God in all things, we're attuned to those moments when God shows up, like in another person whose name happens, is the same name as your dad. Whereas if we, maybe if you weren't as in tune with God being in all things, you might've missed that interaction, right? It hadn't been a part of the development of your spiritual practice.
00:59:02
Speaker
Yeah, and like the gift of being able to share these things with people, you know, like my friend, my particular friend, Jen, I mean, she's deeply spiritual and just that she said it before I even could. I mean, that sort of recognition of, oh, you feel this right now, too. We are in this together and we are having a God moment that
00:59:25
Speaker
We just will never forget. I mean, it's just been powerful. But yeah, I used to always think it was cheating when I would say, oh, I'm going to go ride my bike as a way to connect with God. And finally, I had to pause and say, you know what? No, this is, you see lots of wildlife too when you bike. And you see them in a whole different way. It really is God on all things, including a bicycle.
00:59:52
Speaker
Yeah. And that counseling for ministry or the spiritual direction certificate that I'm doing, it's giving us an opportunity to hopefully help other people find language for these spiritual interactions and find a way to have conversations with other people about spirituality.
01:00:10
Speaker
Because you're right, it's kind of disconcerting when you're trying to talk about how God shows up in your life and you don't know if somebody else is going to understand when you're sharing it. So to be able to not only have the language, but also have the connections with other people that you can talk about spiritually, that's the way it grows. That's the way your relationship with God grows. And so the more we can provide spaces where that's comfortable and available to people, the better.
Technology, Isolation, and Community Connection
01:00:36
Speaker
Yeah, and not standing in fear when those opportunities come up. I used to stand in fear all the time. You know, when I was at public schools, I would never, I mean, the first time I talked about being Catholic, someone in a cohort, a head of mine said, aren't you smart enough to be an atheist? And I thought, well, there goes that, like, I'm not going to be able to show up here freely as myself. And, you know, I, and luckily, I had professors who were
01:01:03
Speaker
openly practicing religious folks. And I went to Episcopal Church with them. And it was wonderful being able to worship with them on a Sunday and then talk about my dissertation on a Monday. It was really good, but I don't live in fear of that anymore. It's like, I'm gonna talk about the universe and I'm gonna talk about energy that I feel. And if you think that something is wrong with me, that is your problem.
01:01:27
Speaker
That is not mine. You may be being invited to do some work. That's what I always take. It's like, I wonder what you're being invited to right now and what I'm being invited to as well. There's always invitations every day. For sure. That probably brings me to my next question because it really does hinge on invitations.
01:01:54
Speaker
What do you think is most challenging for people at the end of 2023, the beginning of 2024? That's right where we are right now, recording this conversation. What do you think makes it challenging for people to understand their belovedness today? And what invitations do we have to help with that? Yeah, I think we so lack community.
01:02:24
Speaker
Technology, I think, can help with that in a lot of ways, but it's mediated. I mean, we're mediated right now. And I mean, as close as I feel to the class and the folks in my small group from this semester, I always wonder, like, oh my gosh, I can't wait till we really meet in person, because I just think this is going to be explosive in the best way possible.
01:02:48
Speaker
I just see the isolation and the longing happening at the same time. And religious institutions are changing and shifting and hopefully they're moving in a direction where they can be more open and inclusive to welcoming people instead of shutting out like so many people have felt for so long. But I think that prevents us. It's hard to see it in other people because we're not
01:03:16
Speaker
taught, you know, values are something that I don't know is taught in school, like I teach my students that and we help we talk about identifying values, but they're 20 years old. And I hope that this isn't the first time that we're talking about, you know, values that are guiding their lives. But it's, um, it's,
01:03:35
Speaker
I mean, I just, it just pains me when I see two people sitting next to each other and they're on their phones or, you know, and I know that phones are not that end all be all. It's how we use technology that, you know, and books are a technology too. So I mean, you know, people at one point were sitting in the same room reading the newspaper together, but there's something about the phone that I think is, I mean, it's designed to be addictive. It's designed to pull us in and then pull us away from the world around us that,
01:04:03
Speaker
it's significantly impacting our ability to actually see each other and then to feel love and connection with one another. I'm deeply concerned. I'm deeply concerned that we have put too much faith and too much trust in technology. We have not
01:04:26
Speaker
remembered that we actually are the ones who are creating all this technology. Therefore, it stands to reason that we're smarter than it because we're creating it. And there are things that it can't do that we can do and we can feel. And I just don't get this pole to try to replace human ability or enhance human ability with technology for everything. Some things I can understand, but it's just as
01:04:54
Speaker
I just wish we could bring back our awareness to ourselves and each other and that has to be unmediated and it has to start with being willing and open to look at yourself first. And that can be really scary.
01:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think about how we talked about earlier in this episode. Stories are so important. Hearing other people's stories are so important. And what I find is that I will be able to find somebody's story easily because I have access to social media and I'll engage with it and I'll be like, oh, I am so glad I got to know this person's point of view. And then I will
01:05:37
Speaker
inadvertently or on purpose engage with the comments on the story or the reflections on the story or the interpretations of the story. And then I'll be so confused about the initial story that I engaged with or the person that I tried to get to know or the situation I tried to get to know. And so I think there's a beauty that we can connect with so many different people that we were never able to connect to before. And there's also the danger that we won't be able to really trust in another person's experience.
01:06:07
Speaker
because we already know everyone's interpretation before we're able to discern our own, before we're able to just listen and say, what do I think about this? We already know what everybody else thinks about it, which makes it hard to hear the voice of God saying,
01:06:23
Speaker
God's saying to you, this is what I think about this. You know, like we hear what everybody thinks and we try to compile it into what God thinks. But we need that silence that you talked about. We need that distance so that we can figure it out and we can discern and we can pray and we can say, God, what do you think about this? What do you think I should do with this information that I now have, this knowledge of another person that I now have? And then how do you want me to help it love myself better? And then also help me love that other person better too.
01:06:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I was with a spiritual director friend of mine a couple of nights ago, Nikki Nelson, and she was telling me she'd read a study by I think as a neuroscientist that said in scrolling on social media for half an hour, we consume the same amount of stimuli that someone in the 50s consumed in a week.
01:07:16
Speaker
In 30 minutes, we can say, and she was just saying, she's like, no wonder we are overstimulated and exhausted and stressed and burnt out and all the things. She's like, we just, we don't get a break. And it's exactly what you're talking about. We're bombarded with perspectives and stories and stimuli, which can be great, but we have to know how to be in relationship with that and not let the machines dictate what we do. I mean, and it takes a lot of awareness of
01:07:45
Speaker
Oh, you know, I'm like, I need to put the phone down. You know, I need to just put it away. Maybe I need to put it in another room to just, you're right, to let things sift and settle and just kind of see where they're going to land within me, you know, to before I decide what am I going to do next with this? Yeah.
01:08:06
Speaker
Well, Liz, it was a wonderful being in class with you last semester. I'm sure we'll be in class again, hopefully, before either one of us finishes. And so I'm sure this will not be our last conversation. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and having this conversation with me. Thank you so much. This was really lovely. I was looking forward to it. Thanks. Thank you.
01:08:43
Speaker
As I was listening back to this recording to prepare it for you, I was struck by how much ground Liz and I covered during the hour. I was also struck by the insight she shared. I'm so grateful for Liz and every guest that is willing to share their story on this podcast.
01:08:59
Speaker
As Lent starts this coming week, I will be adding in a few episodes that will introduce you to a prayer exercise based on this idea of being loved as you are. I hope you'll join me in prayer this Lent as I work to bring you even more conversations in the near future. If you think you or someone you know has a story to share in this podcast, please email me at loved as you are pod at gmail.com. You can follow everything related to this podcast at loved as you are pod on Instagram and at Gretchen Crowder.com.
01:09:30
Speaker
So until next time, remember to be who you are because that is exactly who God wants you to be.