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One on One - Jen Coito
138 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Gretchen Crowder interviews Jen Coito. Jen was Jesuit-educated in Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University. She has a Masters in Pastoral Theology with a specialization in Spiritual Direction. After working for the California Province of Jesuits and Christian Life Community, Jen and Fr. Tri Dinh, S.J co-founded Christus Ministries, an outreach that bridges young adults and the Church through service, retreats, and leadership formation experiences. Jen also serves the Sisters of Notre Dame in California as the Associate Director of Mission Advancement.
Daily life for Jen involves juggling her work with awesome nuns and the constant stream of activities with her husband Jason and her three children.
In addition to blogging for Into the Deep, Jen writes regularly for Christus Ministries and a few other projects here and there.
You can find all her writings at jencoito.com
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!
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If this episode hits home and you feel you have your own story to share, email Gretchen at lovedasyouarepod@gmail.com.
Follow along and contribute to the conversation @lovedasyouarepod on Instagram.
Find more from Gretchen Crowder @gdcrowder as well as at gretchencrowder.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Upcoming School Year
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to Loved As You Are, an Ignatian podcast with me, Gretchen Crowder. I'm so glad you are here. I hope you all are still enjoying your summer. For me, I can't believe it's already well into July, and the new school year for parents and educators is just around the corner. It has gone so fast.
Introduction to Jen Coydo
00:00:22
Speaker
But for now, it's still summer, and today I'm excited to be back with you, sharing my conversation with Jen Coydo.
00:00:30
Speaker
Jen and I connected through both being writers on the Into the Deep Ignatian blog, and I'm so grateful to have been able to get to know her even better during this awesome conversation. Jen was Jesuit educated in Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University. She has a master's in pastoral theology with a specialization in spiritual direction.
Jen's Background and Balancing Family Life
00:00:51
Speaker
After working for the California Province of Jesuits and the Christian Life community, Jen and Father Tree Den S.J. co-founded Christus Ministries, an outreach that bridges young adults and the church through service, retreats, and leadership formation experiences. Jen also serves the Sisters of Notre Dame in California as the Associate Director of Mission Advancement.
00:01:15
Speaker
Daily Life for Jen involves juggling her work with awesome nuns in the constant stream of activities with her husband Jason and her three children. In addition to blogging for Into the Deep, Jen writes regularly for Christus Ministries and a few other projects here and there.
Exploring Faith Through Writing and Community
00:01:31
Speaker
You can find all her writings on her own website, jenkoito.com, linked in the show notes.
00:01:38
Speaker
I enjoyed speaking with Jen about the roots of her faith life and the real way she encounters God and the people around her. I enjoyed speaking with Jen about the roots of her faith life and the real way she encounters God and the people around her. We spoke at length about the desire to be seen, recognized, and valued for who we are and how God shows up to do just that through encounters with imperfect, messy, and real human beings throughout our lives.
00:02:06
Speaker
This was such a great conversation. I'm sure you won't want to miss a minute. So here we go.
Ignatian Spirituality and Community Connection
00:02:41
Speaker
Welcome, Jen. I just introduced you to my listeners and let them know that our primary connection is through Becky Eldridge's Into the Deep blog. We both write for that wonderful blog and are connected to many different gifted writers through that. And I love that I'm going to be able to get the opportunity to learn more about you through this conversation, your connections to Ignatian spirituality and all the wonderful work you do as well. So again, welcome. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
00:03:07
Speaker
Well, thank you for having me. Yes, it's been wonderful to learn from your wisdom through Becky's blog and connect with so many other women in Ignatian spirituality through that format. Yeah, I really am so thankful for all the connections that we've made, and I'm glad that she continues to invite new people all the time
Christus Ministries and Young Adult Engagement
00:03:24
Speaker
as well. And your bio is particularly drawn to the organization that you mentioned helping co-found. Can you tell us a little bit more about what Christus Ministries is?
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, I'd be happy to. So we're celebrating 10 years. So 10 years ago with one of my very close Jesuit friends, Father Tree Din, we co-founded Christus Ministries, which bridges young adults with the Catholic Church, young adults with parishes. So it's an endorsed ministry of the Jesuits West Province. When we founded it, it was still the California province, but it has since merged with the Oregon province and it's now Jesuits West.
00:04:00
Speaker
But it's intentionally its own ministry as a way of bridging young adults with their faith, with community. And some of those vehicles for connection are retreats, service projects and opportunities, and opportunities for genuine communities of faith.
00:04:17
Speaker
We both had come from Ignatian small face sharing groups in our backgrounds. We'd been involved together at Loyola Marymount University with Ignatian Christian Life community groups, but we'd also had other experiences with young adults, with the Vietnamese speaking Christian Life community groups in the United States. And so we had a lot of experience with Ignatian community and saw this was a real opportunity
00:04:45
Speaker
to use what we learned in small face sharing communities on the level of connecting people with parishes. So it really was about bridging young adults with genuine community in parishes. So not easy, as so many people who try to work with not just young adults, but with structures and the church know. But I think we saw this need to build a church that our kids would want to be a part of.
00:05:14
Speaker
and that there would be options for our kids in the future.
Building Community for Young Adults
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, I like that so much because a few guests back, Beth Nobbin, I talked about the idea that sometimes there's this space in between when you are a child and when you are married with children and you don't really know where your place is in the church. And I love that you guys are trying to fill a need. I mean, obviously, people with children are probably participating as well in your ministries, but you're filling a need for all the rest in that young adult span of years that really can find space and connection.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah. And I think what we saw was the questions that people were asking in young adulthood about career, about meaning in life, about purpose. They were single people. They were married people. They were people with children. And there was something about this space in life that invited itself to discernment, but we didn't see a lot out there that was helping young adults engage those questions in a prayerful way and had the element of community.
00:06:18
Speaker
Because there's a lot out there in Ignatian spirituality about you and God. There's a lot you can read about listening to God. But I think between religious life with the Jesuits or with women's orders of religious that I've worked with and just the lay faith sharing communities, we had seen the value of community in individual discernment and in asking those questions. And so I think that was part of our goal is to take those Ignatian principles and see how could they transform communities.
00:06:48
Speaker
That's incredible. I really appreciate that work that you're doing.
Role with Sisters of Notre Dame and Personal Faith
00:06:52
Speaker
And is it throughout the province? Is it particularly in a particular city or state? So Christus was founded in Los Angeles. And a lot of the events and ministries are in Southern California, but there's also a presence in Northern California.
00:07:08
Speaker
and in other states, including Hawaii and Alaska, where the Jesuits West have had longtime presence with those communities. So there's been a home in Los Angeles and the Southern California area, but it's not been limited there.
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah. No, that's an incredible idea as well to share across the United States and see who else might pick up something like that to continue to enliven those years in the parish. That's really awesome. Well, yeah, I really wanted to know more about that in particular, but you also said you work with the sisters of Notre Dame as well. That's the second portion of your job. You have a lot. You're balancing a lot with three kids as well.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yes. So I was educated by the Sisters of Notre Dame and I've been a lay associate of the Sisters since 2007. And about five years ago, six years ago now, I had the opportunity to come and actually work for the congregation. And I'm doing communications and advancement work for the Sisters. So a lot of different hats that I wear from planning things like a nun run.
00:08:18
Speaker
where we raise funds for the Sisters Ministries by engaging children and families in coming out and having a healthy fitness activity together. Two, my great love is grant writing for our sisters in the developing world. So particularly in East Africa, I've made a lot of friendships over digital means and I've been helping them fund some of their really large
00:08:41
Speaker
capital projects and priorities going forward. So it's been, it's a very different work, but I see both as, as helping to build the church of the future. For sure. And especially as a lay woman, having that connection with the sisters and being able to show that partnership is really incredible. So that's, that's some great work you do and managing your family at home. So yeah, thank you.
00:09:07
Speaker
So most of the time on the podcast, I start with this question and it's kind of a big question. So take it where you, where you want to, but who is God to you and how did you come to that understanding? And how does that understanding really contribute to how you view your own belovedness?
00:09:24
Speaker
One of the first moments that I could say this was really me choosing to be in relationship with God was I can remember that when I made my first communion, we had one of those special first communion masses that was on a Saturday morning. And I can remember how excited I was that I was going to go back to Mass the next day and receive communion at a regular Sunday Mass. And I kind of realized, I don't think anyone else cares about this.
00:09:52
Speaker
And I'm just a huge nerd. But it was one of the first moments where I kind of thought like, oh, maybe I'm thinking about this different. Maybe this is not normal, for lack of a better word, that I so want to go back tomorrow. For whatever reason, at that time in my parish, there was no real waiting period between first communion and being able to be an altar server.
00:10:16
Speaker
So basically within a couple of weeks i had signed up gotten trained and i was then serving as an altar server and there was this. Just incredible have been sent in priest who taught at our house in seminary and he.
00:10:34
Speaker
you know, then also helped out at our parish on the weekends. And he was just this really inspirational homilist, which is actually what his subject matter was at the seminary, was teaching homiletics. But
00:10:49
Speaker
I was so affected by alter serving for him because I would stand kind of right behind him. And I remember watching him celebrate mass and I would watch his face and I would watch his hands. And I just remember thinking like, oh, he really believes this. Like this is real. Like I'm not just sitting there watching some guy go through the emotions. Like I had this just sense of
00:11:19
Speaker
his holiness and not that it was like, oh, he's other than us, like that he really saw this as a calling to share the Eucharist with people. And one of my last memories of him before he died was at a time when I was really struggling with the church, with my faith. At that point, I was old enough to be a Eucharistic minister, not an altar server. And I remember walking in the
00:11:44
Speaker
the sacristy door, right, you know, maybe whatever time before mass started, 15 minutes. And I get there and he goes, thank goodness you're here. I had this idea for my homily, but I needed you to be here. I'm so glad you're here. And it was a Christmas mass and he had wanted me to go take the baby Jesus out of the crash and hold it.
00:12:11
Speaker
and emphasized that like Mary had to choose to offer Jesus. And so I sat holding the ceramic Jesus for most of his homily. And then he had this part where he asked me to carry it up and place it back in the crash. And I was so, I mean, it could have been seen as gimmicky, but I was so surprised at how powerful of an experience that was for me.
00:12:41
Speaker
And I have gone back to that moment where I walked into the sacristy and he said, Oh, I'm so glad you're here. And how much I needed to hear that, how much I needed to hear that it mattered that I showed up. And I think it can be so easy for women, but for so many people to feel like whether or not they show up in church, whether or not they show up to prayer, that
Valued Moments in Faith Community
00:13:08
Speaker
it doesn't matter.
00:13:09
Speaker
And that was probably like those pair that altar serving with him. And then that moment right before he died, I think it was one of the last masses he celebrated before he died kind of suddenly. And I have held on to that moment and gotten back to it so many times of that feeling of whether or not I come matters to God, matters to the community of faith.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's so beautiful. First of all, when you started by talking about your first early communion, my twins celebrated theirs on a Saturday morning not too long ago, and I don't think they were sitting there going, I can't wait to come back tomorrow. In fact, I think the first words out of their mouth was like, this counts, right?
00:13:55
Speaker
They're learning early. But I really resonate with that idea that God comes close to us in these very small moments that we don't expect and through the words of another person. And that is just so incredible that person that was close to you that has meant something through your life was able to say the right thing at the right moment. But then also later in mass, there was this moment of you being in community
00:14:23
Speaker
but also being one-on-one with God that you were holding in your hands. And I think that goes back to your desire for people to be able to find that community within that one-on-one relationship with God.
00:14:36
Speaker
So would you say that for you God is someone that gets who you are too because you're the person that's really excited about being a part of the church and being a part of the sacraments or is God a friend to you? Is God a father parent figure to you? How would you describe God in that way? I think for me God is reality.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I think something that has come to be meaningful for me is that God is not in the ideal, God is not in the perfection, and that God enters into our own reality and is with us in that reality.
00:15:16
Speaker
whether that's as a friend, whether that's as a parent figure. But I think that's the word that comes to me is that God is reality. That is not vague. God is not a theory. That God is very real. And that reality looks different for people with different personalities, but also for who we are in that moment in our life.
00:15:39
Speaker
what reality we need to be most obvious or authentic to us. I think that's where God meets us. Sometimes that's painful, but that God will always be there in that pain or in that struggle if that struggle is real and genuine and true and where we're meant to be.
00:15:58
Speaker
Yeah, that resonates so much with a thing I love that Ignatius taught, which is that he invited the people that, you know, his followers, his men, but all of us that work with in ancient spirituality as well to enter through the door of the people that we are trying to bring to Christ. It wasn't about going up to someone and saying,
00:16:16
Speaker
you need to find God and you need to find Christ and push them through the door. But instead, it was coming up and getting to know the person in front of you in their reality, understanding where they're coming from, seeing what you can learn from where someone is coming from, and then having a conversation about God that just stems from that really getting to know one another on a personal level. So your answer really resonated very much with that key part
00:16:41
Speaker
of Ignatian spirituality that entering through another person's door.
00:16:46
Speaker
When did you first come to know about Ignatian spirituality? I know you said you went to Loyola Marymount, so obviously you got Ignatian spirituality there, but was that the first encounter with it, or how did you come to know Ignatian
Journey with Ignatian Spirituality and Career Path
00:16:59
Speaker
spirituality? So I first came to know Ignatian spirituality by what it is at Loyola Marymount University. But what I found when I got to Loyola Marymount and got involved with retreats and CLC, Christian Light Community Groups, was that
00:17:13
Speaker
There was so much of my background that was Ignatian and I just didn't know it. And I learned that part of that comes from the Sisters of Notre Dame, that they were one of the many orders of women religious who were founded by a Jesuit. For them, it was St. Julie Billiard was kind of educated and informed by the suppressed fathers of the faith in France and the 1800s. And the branch of Sisters of Notre Dame that
00:17:40
Speaker
that I work for and who taught me in school kind of came from that history. And so all these things of the ways I'd been taught to pray in middle school and high school, the kinds of retreats we had, they were so ignition, but we didn't have that language.
00:17:56
Speaker
at least at that time. And I actually had a great conversation with somebody that I went to high school with, and then also went to LMU with. And I said, did you know all these things that we were doing? Did you ever connect that? And she was like, no, it was almost like it blew her mind. And I say that the Jesuits gave me words for what my way of praying had already been and had already been formed in me. So really, I would say from the time I was in junior high, I was getting that Ignatian Foundation. And then it really
00:18:24
Speaker
took root when I was in college at LMU and after that. Yeah. I mean, it inspired you to want to work for the Jesuits. Did you work for them right out of LMU? Yeah, pretty much. I was working for the California Province of Jesuits. I ended up getting my master's in pastoral theology after my undergraduate work at Loyola Marymount. And so then after I'd finished my master's, I started really officially working for the province. Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker
That's awesome. And I love that you have this, do you direct people in spiritual direction because you have that? I do. And I mostly at this point, just because I'm busy and I have a lot of other things going on. But a lot of the people that I see are young women who come to me through the sisters or through Christus. And a lot of times they're
00:19:12
Speaker
They're not necessarily looking for religious life, but they've come to the sisters through some way of connecting with them as a young adult. I kind of have an interest in walking with women who are young adults who are at that phase in their life of figuring out where God is calling them to be.
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's so incredible the connections that we have with having electronic means and being able to talk online and connect with spiritual directors in other cities and other states because I don't remember growing up knowing about this thing called spiritual direction.
00:19:47
Speaker
I actually don't know if I ever knew it would exist before I started working for the Jesuits, and they're not the only ones that do it, obviously, but having this idea that there's, oh, there's a person you can talk to about your faith, and it's not just that priests or religious have spiritual directors, but that lay people can have that as well in that kind of regular conversation, which is great. And we need more lay men and women to be spiritual directors, so there's enough for everyone to have that kind of conversation.
Theme of Belovedness in Faith
00:20:16
Speaker
topic of my podcast is being loved as you are. Is there a reason why you were drawn particularly to the theme of this podcast? Is there like a moment in your life or a story that kind of connects you to this idea of God loving us as we are, and not just our own selves, but loving everyone around us the same way?
00:20:39
Speaker
One of my friends and I used to joke when we were first out of college and helping with retreats and she always talked about belovedness and I talked about brokenness. So when I saw your topic, I was like, oh, maybe I can graduate into belovedness and not the brokenness talk. But they really do go hand in hand. But we used to tease each other that whenever we were doing retreat work together, that was how we would divide it up. But truly, I truly do see in my own life how that sense of
00:21:09
Speaker
the brokenness and embracing that brokenness has led to really being able to experience God's belovedness. A moment for me, another of those like touchstone moments in prayer that I go back to. So my best friend was pregnant and the father was not super interested or engaged. And so I had this experience of driving her to the hospital when she was in labor.
00:21:38
Speaker
we get there and I've called the doctor and I've talked to the doctor and, you know, kind of like being that St. Joseph, that accompaniment. And this is before I had had my own children. And I can remember the craziness and the rushing and
00:22:01
Speaker
I'm there then in the delivery room and she doesn't have time for an epidural because it's all happening too fast. There's just all this chaos. I remember being so focused on her and so focused on like, what do you need? What do I have to do? Who do I have to yell at in this hospital to understand that this baby is coming right now and somebody needs to get in here.
00:22:23
Speaker
There was this moment when her daughter was born and I was the first person who saw her and I was the one and the doctor went to hand her to me first and I was like no no hand her to her mom like I'm not it's not really my
00:22:38
Speaker
privilege to be the first one to hold her. I can remember looking at her and at this point I had spent years talking about brokenness and years with this kind of like earning love and how do I allow myself to be loved and to feel love and all this work on being loved.
Worth, Love, and Personal Growth
00:22:56
Speaker
And I remember looking at her in that moment when the doctor is handing her to my friend and going like, Oh, I get it now. I get it God.
00:23:08
Speaker
because I looked at her in that moment and I was like, you didn't do anything to deserve this. You are worthy and you are loved. And there is nothing that any of us humans who have been running around like idiots right now can do to change how loved you are and that God has given you this worth. And it was kind of like, it was so obvious in that moment
00:23:36
Speaker
And it took me like a long time of praying with that moment and what I felt in that moment afterwards for many months. I kept returning to that moment of her having just been born and that realization that I had and allowing that to sink in for me. But even in that moment I had known, I was like, something is fundamentally changing in me right now. And I couldn't deny it.
00:24:01
Speaker
Were you able to translate that understanding of a newborn baby being loved as they were to your own self with years of experience of brokenness as still being loved and all of that no matter what or was that challenging to translate it from her to you?
00:24:22
Speaker
It was challenging, but I think in that moment I knew in a way that I had not known before. And we talk about like the theoretical knowing, like I can know in my head that God loves me or that I have inherent worth, but I don't think until that moment I really knew it in my gut, that kind of knowing. And I think it took a while to
00:24:47
Speaker
allow it to take shape. It took a while, but I think it fundamentally changed how I was in a number of relationships in my life because I think we all have these kinds of relationships where we constantly feel like we have to earn that love, that nothing we do is going to be enough, and then I would allow my sense of worth to be defined by that apparent shortcoming.
00:25:13
Speaker
And I think that was a huge part of the shift for me was, okay, even if this relationship is still strained with people in my life, or even if that reconciliation with the person that I've sought never happens, it doesn't change that I am really loved. It doesn't change that my worth is, is intrinsic. And I think it was just one of those lived experiences of
00:25:41
Speaker
it's challenging my own self talk. Yeah, that's sometimes it's easy to say, okay, well, God, you love me no matter what, but this person in front of me may not. And then translating all of your effort to trying to make that person in front of you, love you as you are, instead of realizing that
00:26:03
Speaker
If God loves me no matter what, then I don't need to prove my, you know, and if this, if I can't work out a relationship with the person in front of me, then that's not a person that's my friend or that's not, you know, that's not really what I should value. There's some great freedom in what you've spoken about, that freedom of once I understand that I'm loved no matter what, I can now just work on being me instead of working on being whatever this perfect version of me.
00:26:30
Speaker
And I think, and maybe a contrasting image of that is that if we're constantly trying to defend our belovedness, then we're on guard for things that kind of take a chink out of that wall. And it's like, I have to protect my belovedness. I have to protect myself from things that appear to take away
00:26:51
Speaker
from that sense of self. And I think for me, what was triggered in that moment with her was, no, that belovedness is there. These other things can come at you. They can challenge you. They can hurt you. It doesn't take away from who I am.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's such a propensity I know in myself for always trying to figure out the game plan for when something doesn't go right. I find myself doing that just I started taking my kids to church at 730 in the morning because
Parenting and Relationships During Pandemic
00:27:24
Speaker
They like the fact that there's no music. They do that, and then they get breakfast, whatever it is. But on the way to church, I'm going through all the things that could possibly go wrong. We're going to be five minutes late. Will the priest look at us? What if they do this? Whatever it is. Instead of just driving to church, I've already gone through all the contingency plans of everything. There is definitely that tendency to make those contingency plans, and then that blocks you from just enjoying
00:27:53
Speaker
the moment that God's placed you in, for sure. Is there anything that you do in particular for yourself or even for your children or the people you work with to try to help you remind yourself of this belovedness, whether it's prayer practices or encounters with other people, retreats, whatever it is? That's a good question. I think something that is so much a part of who I am is
00:28:20
Speaker
kind of maintaining relationship. And maybe that seems like an obvious answer, but I know I'm not the person who's good in like a big group of people with telling a bunch of jokes. But I am the person who like texts somebody who I know is pregnant and just said, I hope you're feeling well today. I hope you're
00:28:39
Speaker
And I think for me, that meaningful connection with people, even if it's short, even if it's not as often as I would like, I think that's something that's so hard with kids. There's this constant fear, no matter what you do, you can never do everything that you want to do. But I would love to be more present to other people in my life.
00:29:07
Speaker
then it seems like it's possible when you've got little kids because it's hard to have a private conversation. It's hard to talk with people when they're available and you're available and there aren't a bunch of kids around on either side of the phone. But I think I've noticed how important it is for me to maintain the meaningful friendships that I have.
00:29:29
Speaker
even if it's not perfect. I just feel like it sounds so obvious, but friendship is such an important part of self care. So I would say that's a key factor for me in recognizing that. And I actually, the friend who's baby that I told the story about for my birthday, she had bought us theater tickets to something that she knew I would love. And she didn't tell me about it. She had them for like six months. And it was one of those things where she said to me, she was like, I knew you needed
00:29:56
Speaker
to get out and do something for yourself and for us to do something together. But I know you won't do it unless you're kind of pushed. And it was, I think it was one of those moments where I was like, wow, not only was the play perfect for me, but I felt so loved and so seen as like, this is my limitation, my weakness, and you know it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about just trying to maintain friendships and relationships, especially if they're at a distance, you know, people you went to college with that maybe you don't see all the time. I was leading a retreat a little while ago with a high school student and asked the question, how will you keep up with your friends post-graduation?
00:30:41
Speaker
And he's like, well, I know I won't unless I schedule it. So I need to put times in my calendar. Like we should do this right now. Like just put them in and say like, I'm going to call this person on Tuesday or I'm going to text. I was like, how are you smarter than me? I have never done that. Like that would be great. I look at my calendar all the time. And if I just bothered to put in, you know, I know I call my parents once a week, but instead of that other things that I could catch up with, like return all text messages at 7am so that you
00:31:10
Speaker
can move on. But yeah, I think that connection is really important. And we don't always realize what the people feel on the other end of reception, either the reception of getting the text message, the like on the photo, whatever it is, or not getting it and what that feels like, even though innocently, we may have just not realized we didn't
00:31:32
Speaker
respond or make that connection. So I think that's just such an important thing, even though it sounds like a small thing, an important thing to do. And that clearly is a part of who you are and your personality. You're not trying to make that connection and help people remember their belovedness.
00:31:48
Speaker
And I think all the things that you mentioned like prayer, spiritual direction, retreats, those are all wonderful.
God in Relationships and Humility
00:31:53
Speaker
I think on a day to day level, I find that when those genuine friendships aren't there, it's easy for a lot of the other stuff to fall apart too.
00:32:04
Speaker
Yeah, especially because as we've learned through Ignatian spirituality, not all spiritualities teach us, but Ignatian spirituality that God wants to be our friend and God wants to be in relationship with us. And so the only way that we can have an effective relationship with God is to like have real relationships with people in front of us and really practice what that self-giving love is. And I think it goes back for me to that sense of God being in reality.
00:32:31
Speaker
It's like God is in the messiness of human relationship and God is in the, like how God relates to us is in those real struggles in relationship and the things that challenge us to get outside ourselves.
00:32:46
Speaker
Yeah, and knowing that is where we can put that brokenness and belovedness together. Would we stop trying to fix the mess and just realize that God's right there in it with us? And of course, God's always asking us to try to do better, but not be something better than who we are. Yeah, I think that's really important.
00:33:05
Speaker
Is there anything that you find challenging about helping people or helping yourself understand your own belovedness? I know raising kids through a pandemic and then now the after effects of it, you know, there's some challenge in that because
00:33:22
Speaker
young kids didn't have as many face-to-face interactions. I mean, my boys were four and six when that started. And so not just with your kids, people you work with, but challenges of helping people with recognizing their own belovedness. Yeah, definitely the pandemic has affected so much of this in terms of how we relate to people, how my kids relate to people. I think if I were to summarize the most difficult part about kind of living into this belovedness,
00:33:52
Speaker
I think it would be humility. I think I still struggle with accepting where I'm falling short and then how often my reactions to people that I then regret or second guess come from that place of feeling inadequate and feeling that I've somehow let people down or let myself down
00:34:20
Speaker
And so then you, or at least I react a certain way and it's balancing the kind of self-flagellation, like the like, Oh, I'm so stupid. I do the same thing again. Why don't I ever learn with, okay, that wasn't the best move. How do I acknowledge my part in it and try to step forward and acknowledge the other person's reaction or hurt or their feelings about it?
00:34:48
Speaker
but not take responsibility for their reaction. And so that tension of like owning my own stuff and being humble enough to accept where I'm falling short, but also where I've hurt others. It's not a clear black and white distinction of, well, this is the person who did the hurting and this is the person who's hurt. That I think part of living into this sense of belovedness, especially in relation with others,
00:35:16
Speaker
is each person acknowledging their own struggle and how they can come together to support each other, but also that sometimes there's tension there. And I think you see this so much with kids too, you know, that they're acting out of their lack of socialization, their fear, their insecurity, their disappointment. And then maybe their behavior looks a certain way and you react to that behavior in a certain way. And it's like, okay, wait, what's really going on here?
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's so important to find the real truth in any interaction. What resonated with me when you were talking was I tend to be my own worst critic. And so I've already figured out what I've done wrong in every situation. I've already beat myself up for it and I've already, you know, so if someone else points out something that they think I'm doing wrong,
00:36:08
Speaker
It's so much harder for me to take because I've already done that to myself. And then you hear it. But sometimes it's not the same thing that you thought you were doing wrong. And then that's hard too, because you're like, I thought I evaluated everything that I did wrong. And you're bringing this new thing in.
00:36:25
Speaker
And it's hard to see that maybe some of the evaluations I've made of myself aren't really real. Like some of the critiques I had on myself, I really didn't do anything that bad. I just was being harmful on my own and that some critiques other people have of me might have some value if I open my mind to hear them. But it's really hard to have a balance because sometimes
00:36:49
Speaker
what people say isn't true. So just being able to really discern and think about, I'm going to listen to somebody. I'm going to understand what they're saying. I'm going to take that to prayer and try to think about
Children's Individuality and Imagination
00:37:01
Speaker
really what's my place in this and what is not my place in this and how am I going to just not dwell on it forever, but try to move forward in a positive
00:37:13
Speaker
manner. Yeah, and I think that's challenging because we read or listen to so many things that are so negative that we absorb that. We almost kind of seek it out too because the negative is exciting. The negative is a story to get into and then we take that on ourselves and it's hard to like
00:37:33
Speaker
reach for the positive as well. Do you find that there are ways that you try particularly to impart this idea of belovedness on your kids? I know having young kids myself, that's really hard. I want to impart all the belovedness on them, but then
00:37:52
Speaker
They show up with the worst sides of me sometimes. Like I see myself and this little kid that all the things that I don't like about myself and the attitude and stuff is coming right back at me. Is there a way that you try even though we're imperfect as parents to try and help your kids maybe understand it earlier than? I absolutely agree with that sentiment that like we see the worst parts of ourselves or the things that irritate us about ourselves, kind of like reflecting back in the mirror with our kids.
00:38:21
Speaker
I think for me, it's balancing that it's okay to fail, that it's okay to struggle with something and encouraging them to keep trying different things and that if they don't get it on the first time, it's okay.
00:38:43
Speaker
I think there's so many measures out there of success, you know, the awards, the teams that, you know, some of these things that are arbitrary. And when you don't get them, it can feel like you're worth from a very young age, it can feel like you're worth dependent on being in the right math group, or whatever it is, and helping them to understand that
00:39:12
Speaker
that doesn't really have anything to do with their worth. And that the most important thing is for them to be where they need to be and get the support that they need and whatever the area is. And that they keep learning and having a good time and exploring their interests. And I think that's a real tension in our society right now. You know, there's so many pressures for kids to be experts in things really early and really young. And I think
00:39:42
Speaker
I try to balance that with that they don't have to know how to do it. And even if everybody else is doing a club travel team, if you're not sure you really like it, it's okay to just do the park and rec version and dip your toe in and see if you like it. And I think that's really, in my opinion, countercultural with how people value child raising today.
00:40:11
Speaker
Yeah, my three boys are at a school for learning differences. And I remember being surprised the first time I got an invitation in my email that said, we're celebrating your child on Friday, please come in and hear about them. And I didn't know because I was new to the school a couple of years ago what they did, but they invite a variety of parents in
00:40:37
Speaker
at different times throughout the year until they hit every kid. And so for one particular day, they celebrate these 20, 30 kids. And they read a paragraph from their homeroom teacher about who the kid is and why they've stood out to them and why they're being celebrated. And every paragraph is different. Everything highlights some different strength, but every child is highlighted throughout the year. And I just thought, wow, that is really
00:41:07
Speaker
counter-cultural because I remember being a kid and sitting in those awards ceremonies and you know if you got a certificate or something you were like yes you know so and if you didn't yes because there were only four or five handed out you just beat yourself up about it even though there's a hundred and something kids in the class and how why are you beating yourself up for not being one of the four people recognized but I just think gosh how life-changing would it have been to hear a paragraph
00:41:36
Speaker
read about myself at that age, saying, this is what I value about you. And it's different than the next person we're going to talk about. And it's not the same as everyone getting a certificate for participation because it is celebrating the next person. Yeah, that's really neat. Yeah, there's not enough of those kinds of acknowledgments for any of us as a kid or as an adult.
00:41:59
Speaker
Yeah, because we're always trying to be better, trying to achieve more, trying to, you know, make things better tomorrow than they were yesterday. I, I spend all summer, you know, educator, I spend all summer figuring out how I can make next year better, how I can make myself better. Right. So I think that's why I have to keep having these conversations about being loved as you are to remind myself that God's not always seeking us to be better than
00:42:27
Speaker
just the best version of our own unique selves. I was going to say that I don't remember when you wrote it, but I remember reading something, I think it was on Becky's blog, you were writing about your child's
00:42:42
Speaker
kind of imagination and interaction with a squirrel. And I loved the article because it stood out to me because I have some very creative, inventive kids that, you know, make up their own worlds and their own lives. And I can kind of be like, no, we have to do this now. And you are doing that. And I don't you know, you're messing up your room because you took my entire recycling bin into your room and made a creative world out of it. Now the house is a mess. But I appreciate it that I think the point of the article was that you had to kind of
00:43:12
Speaker
pause and see who the person was in front of you. Yeah, the story you're talking about is her imaginary squirrel that was weighing her down on a hike and like she could not put one foot in front of the other because this squirrel was so heavy.
00:43:28
Speaker
And, you know, what is this about? Well, she obviously didn't want to walk anymore, but instead of just saying we turn around, she invented this entire narrative about this squirrel that had snuck its way into her backpack. And the really, the big thing about her is that she doesn't want you to say something as imaginary. It's invisible. And I think what I took from that is if you say something as imaginary, it implies it's not real.
00:43:59
Speaker
If something is invisible, it's very real. You just can't see it. Like air, like a feeling, like a thought. And so, you know, she's still, whenever she makes up a story or a situation, she's very particular about it being imaginary is not what it is. It's invisible. She can see it.
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah, I love that because as adults we forget about what wonderful things kids can see and imagine. And when we talk about God loving us as we are and God being there for us in the hard times and then we try to have that conversation with another person and they're like, well, I don't see God.
00:44:46
Speaker
God's imaginary, like you've made this up. I really like that distinction that she made because, well, maybe God's invisible because we can't see concretely in front of us, but we see all the things that this invisible God has made happen with grace in our life. Yeah, that just because we can't see something doesn't make it any less real.
00:45:08
Speaker
because we can really feel it. And I think that's the challenging thing is to be in touch with the fact that some of the things that we know to be true is because of an emotion and a feeling instead of a concrete, I can reach out like Thomas and touch, you know, the release of Jesus, so.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:45:27
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Jen, for this conversation. I really enjoyed talking about this topic with you, getting to know you a little bit better. And I hope it's not the last conversation that we have on this topic. But thank you so much for being with my listeners and me today.
00:46:06
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jen as much as I did. I loved how passionately she spoke about her faith and how beautifully she relayed those moments in her life when she experienced God coming close and showing her her belovedness. All of these conversations are such gifts to me and I can't wait to share even more of them with you. In fact, I'm recording two more this week and I think you're gonna love them too.
00:46:34
Speaker
I think you'll notice that I'm trying to get a variety of perspectives and experiences on this podcast, including both Catholic and non-Catholic, Mason and other forms of spiritual practice as well. If you think you or someone you know has a story to share on this podcast, please email me at loved as you are pod at gmail.com.
00:46:52
Speaker
And if you like this podcast, subscribe and leave a review. I'd love to have your feedback and be able to continue to move this podcast in a direction that is valuable for you. You can also follow everything related to this podcast at lovedizzurpod on Instagram and at gretchencrouder.com slash lovedizzurpodcast. Links to both are in the show notes. Thank you for joining me today. And until next time, remember to be who you are because that's exactly who God wants you to be.