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We watch "Phage" (S1 Ep.5)
45 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway’s Children
This week we are watching “Phage” in which Neelix's lungs are stolen by the Vidiians, an alien race suffering from an incurable disease, and who harvest organs from other races. Captain Janeway must make a tough ethical decision, but ultimately the Vidiians offer to help Neelix receive a lung transplant from Kes.
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Transcript
Introduction and Disorientation
00:00:01
Speaker
Oh my goodness, I've lost my notes. I'll also forgotten how to do this after my holiday in Cape Town. But yes, I guess again, I always have to assume we have a listener.
Welcoming Listeners to Episode Four
00:00:10
Speaker
So welcome back to episode four of our Star Trek rewatch podcast, where we this week we watched Paige.
00:00:19
Speaker
And Jenny, all I remember is that you were very not looking forward to watching this episode, so I'm sure we're going to find out a bit more because you're like, eh, disgusting. I agree with that. Although this one was less disgusting than I, I think perhaps the phage and the aliens associated with come back in later episodes and get more disgusting. So this one wasn't
Teenage Trauma and Melting Faces
00:00:40
Speaker
too bad.
00:00:40
Speaker
I think I remember once when I was like a teenager or something when this was first I was on TV seeing it and being like, oh, that's really sort of scabby when I saw some of the characters in it. Yeah, I would definitely been traumatised.
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a nightmare horror movie scenario. Like there's these aliens that come and harvest your organs and they can do it without even, you know, they just transport them out of your body. I mean, I'm going to show myself it's really shallow, but actually the bit that to me was horrifying was just their faces look like they're melting. Yeah, I mean, I will, I will actually get into it rather than just placing a poor innocent species facial features. Yeah. Are you ready to give us the
00:01:22
Speaker
Are you ready to give us your one minute summary? Yes. Am I going to do that now? Yes, please. I was sort of trying and trying and trying to write something, but instead all I could write was quotation marks, Neelix is an art liability, number one, cross, number two, cross, number three, cross, and then it's really annoying. So that was Neelix's story
Neelix Character Critique
00:01:50
Speaker
arc. Is that what you're saying?
00:01:52
Speaker
That was Neelix's story arc, this one, and I feel that that story arc is the story arc of this episode from the perspective of someone who finds his character very annoying. I'm so surprised. If you're gonna say that he's the character that reminds me most of me. No, you're reminding most of my friend Tammy, which I explained, I think, last time. But I would think that you would like Neelix, so... I'm sure I'd like him if I met him in person. I just find him really annoying as a TV series.
00:02:19
Speaker
Oh, I have the opposite. I think he'd annoy me in person if you have to be around him a lot. But as a character on a TV show, you think, oh, he's just so positive and kind hearted. I agree. Before we dive in, I've made some notes, as I said earlier, I was a bit hungover, so maybe I made less notes. So this might be quicker, might be better. But, you know, like, so the opening scene, I think, was like the captain's log, where she's
00:02:49
Speaker
when we find out they're running low on dialogue with them and they're on their way to a road planet to kind of ease the power shortage. But she gives the date. Do you ever pay attention to the dates they give in Star Trek? No. I can't follow them. I find that really frustrating, though, throughout because whenever they knock time off, it's just something that helps them. I always want an update on how much closer they are because I can never work it out. And I always found that quite frustrating because you can
00:03:19
Speaker
get in your head a visual of how much closer they were to home each time. Yeah, I just I can't, I can't process it. And so yeah, I'm exactly the same. I just kind of ignore it. I can even write it down. I was like, maybe I'll try like rewind write it down so I can talk about it in more detail. And I was like, I can't be bothered. Yeah, I don't understand. But then I guess. So we
The Replicator Dilemma
00:03:40
Speaker
have that intro. So we understand. Yeah, you know, what's happening? Yeah, first question.
00:03:47
Speaker
Like, and I absolutely love it because there's that bit where Janeway is describing the most delicious sounding brunch ever. Oh, yes. And, oh, it's a cicote, I think it is. Yeah. And then they're often like, oh, but actually we're gonna have ration packs. Can I ask a question with one word? Replicators?
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, they're low on power, so they can't, I think, use it. Oh, isn't that how it works? You need enough power for that. That's what the dilithium is for, yeah. So they're being careful because they're running out of dilithium for energy, so that they're having the Russian packs. No, no worries. Yeah, that was mine. Because I was also like, you know, sometimes I'm always paying attention at the beginning, or there's like exposition. I was like, why? And then I think that's, I agree with Jenny. But they're also discussing,
00:04:35
Speaker
Like something about, like refining dilatium, like if it gets a plan, how are they going to refine it? And Balanas come up with a plan that's obviously very badass. I was going to say anti-Starfleet. I liked the word. My brain wasn't really working. So I said anti-Starfleet. Then the next scene is quite funny. Janeway enters her private dining room.
00:04:58
Speaker
as we later find out. And it's just like steam and fire and that was my Neelix is a liability one moment. Okay, that's the first time he's in my ability. Yeah, I mean, first take over the captain's post private room second set it on fire. So maybe that was not but anyway, carry on.
00:05:15
Speaker
And that's all in this is like, in the morning, pre breakfast. If I was Jane way, I would have murdered him by then. No, no breakfast, no coffee. I mean, grumpy enough as it is. And then yeah, so there's a possibility that she can't even get coffee. But I think, yeah, Jane, like, it's, I totally forgot that she was on her way to have breakfast. I mean, I would have also murdered him at this point. When I before I like knew the next character so well, this kind of would have also
00:05:43
Speaker
grated on me. Like he didn't get approval. He doesn't ask for permission. He's just, but you know, I'm a rule follower. I'm not like Neelix. But it is very funny that Janeway's, there's also a part of me that like Janeway's, she's not super upset, but I'm like, I feel like she should immediately see why it's a good idea. But she's like, my private dining room, which I don't think is like very, really in keeping with her character too much, but she's still very like,
00:06:13
Speaker
Maybe that's part of her growth through the series. She's very strict Starfleet, but throughout she has to kind of bend the rules a bit, doesn't she? Yeah, that's true. Next, I think Janeway gets summoned to the bridge by Jakote, and she takes meetings with her because I think they've found a planet, they're coming out of a planet, and a fast planet.
00:06:43
Speaker
Is it possibly one that Neelix himself has suggested? No, no, she does ask him specifically to go with her, because he's the one that told them about this planet. So yeah, yeah, or this area or something. Just wanted to give him credit where it's due.
Dilithium Planet Mishap
00:06:57
Speaker
He's the one who found this planet with allegedly dilithium. Yes, good of you to give him credit. Jamie's building up for like a massive character assassination. It's like, I'll just, I'll just warm up by throwing him some
00:07:16
Speaker
want our viewers to feel that I wasn't committed to impartiality and credit where it's due. A lot of credit for someone who hates someone so much in such a short space of time.
00:07:30
Speaker
But I do like his line where he says something like, a few dilithium engineers, he knows of a few dilithium engineers who would give three of their spinal columns, like to know about this, which I didn't actually think I realized at the time, but later on, I was like, Oh, was that like a foreshadowing of like an organ? Like they had mentioned, or, you know, like a spinal column. Yeah, I think without anyone doing what's going to happen, when they're in that room, and yeah, two of us cataloging those organs, I was like, Oh,
00:07:59
Speaker
Maybe that was a little, maybe not. Yeah, there's blatantly like a film techy term for that kind of thing, which if I knew anything about TV or film, then I would know. Free shadow. Yeah, that sounds good. Oh, yeah. I mean, it just didn't occur to me when I saw it, but later on, I was like, oh, wait a minute. Also, because I like that line. And this is when Janeway orders the Wei Wenschen and Neelix just assumes that he's good. Yeah, I know that was Neelix's liability too.
00:08:25
Speaker
Okay, number two. I feel like I should make some notes about the time, please. Can I also call out the fact that if we found them a planet which is allegedly full of dilithium, but isn't, and is in fact full of, and I'm not going to give away the plot for our listeners until they get to the appropriate bit, but full of what it's possibly full of, does that count as Neelix as a Liability 3?
00:08:53
Speaker
I mean, has he ever actually delivered? I'm not sure. No, look, I would be the first to say it's Felix. I mean, I would be. But to be fair, he did. It seems like he made a standard mistake there that most people would make because it wasn't it showing on there. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't true. But I think we can probably blame Felix for other things.
00:09:20
Speaker
there will be opportunities. So the next thing we're on the planet, I think with Tkote, Harry Kim, and Neelix. And they're doing, I guess, some kind of geological survey. And I have a little tidbit because I listened to the Delta Flyers podcast. And these caves moments of patriotic silence in respect for our greater podcast.
00:09:46
Speaker
I wish everyone could see this. Or you can see that I was doing the hand on the chest. I'll hand on the chest. Yes, I agree. Continue. But they mentioned, I think, that that cave set was actually from TNG. So that was just interesting tidbits of TV history. TNG? How amazing. Next Generation. And then they used this cave set for all, like, for the rest of Warjo. And I feel like I remember that because I think it's lots of different
00:10:14
Speaker
episodes. They're like, oh, that's the same cave said, just rest definitely. That's the same cave. Very standard rock geochemistry in the
00:10:24
Speaker
Yes. In fact, the one, the one guy gets a bit annoyed that they don't try and make it look a bit more different. But anyway, but the second tidbit is apparently this cave set was on soundstage 16 somewhere. I don't know. But it was full of like feral cats. Yeah. Well, they didn't say feral. I'm assuming feral, but like dozens of cats lived in this set. That's crazed as red. You can't just hear cat and assume feral. Well, they didn't sound like pet cats. Or colony of cats and assume feral. A colony of cats. They might be non-feral cat colonies.
00:10:54
Speaker
colony of cats. That's good. Oh, well, I don't understand. Is it? Is it not in a studio? This? Yes, it is. But some reason there was like, it's like a set built on top of like a pool or something because it was like underground pool, which I assume is not full of water unless actually using it. The cats like live in the underground bit of the set or something. They're probably stank as well. Yes, I feel like they do talk about it again. And that's exactly what they said. My goodness. Hang on.
00:11:22
Speaker
I got to find out about this cat star trick. You're not going to find that on the incident. You got to listen. You got to do the research to pull these tidbits. If you do find something. Fine. Fine. Okay, good. But I don't like the fact I can't find anything. Ben, Neelix is like kind of walking and he keeps like moving away from. Yeah, that was Neelix is a liability five.
00:11:51
Speaker
No, three. Five. Five. We just said two. Up on five already.
Medical Emergency: Harvested Lungs
00:11:56
Speaker
Well, I mean, first of all, he wanders away. So that's number four. And then almost immediately later, two rocks went when he finds something that sounds vaguely missing. Two rocks says, come back and he just goes, oh, it's just around this corner. I'll go around this corner and isolate myself when he goes towards the thing. That's five. I think he's very... He's very...
00:12:15
Speaker
I'm surprised, is it too raw kachikote that's telling him to come back like five times and then and Neelix just continues and like there's no there's there's no sort of repercussions. I mean there's none of the reaction of threatening violence that any reasonable person would have to Neelix at that point in time.
00:12:36
Speaker
He has a liability there. I mean, he went up it. Yeah. And a danger to himself. So you agree that we're up to Neelix's a liability five. Okay, I'll update my notes. I'm going to keep you accurate. Then we have the, I never know what to call it, soundtrack theme tune. I actually, I should know this, but then we wrote. Oh, we're already, we're only on the. Yeah. We've already started and we've already got five of Neelix's liabilities. Well, it's exactly.
00:13:04
Speaker
Neelix is going to be like, who knows how many liabilities by then, but we return and they're still on the planet. And this is where they like actually realize they're struggling to find the dilithium. So it's coming up on their senses or whatever, but also get their correction. Yeah, they should be able to recognize it with their eyes because when Neelix is like, it should be all around me. One of them says something like that.
00:13:24
Speaker
Yeah, because the scanners are scanning the walls, and they're like, we're reading dilithium, but there's no dilithium here. And it's the sort of scanner reading that Neelix gets of a really large dilithium formation that attracts him around the corner. Yeah, continue. Your memory is brilliant, please. No, no, no. I say they go around this passageway, and then Neelix scans something
00:13:53
Speaker
And there's like this flicker as though they're changing dimension and then this creature.
00:13:58
Speaker
with if he looks really shadowy and since he steps out and Neelix tries to follow him and the creature vanishes and Neelix makes I think Tuvok aware and Tuvok again lambasts him to come back and then Neelix is trying to find this creature which is Neelix as a liability six and then the creature suddenly zaps him the zap yeah he looked pretty bad
00:14:27
Speaker
after that, he looks so pale when he's like convulsing on the floor. Well, yes, because as we'll find out, Red, what happened to him? Yeah, that was pretty dramatic. So they beam directly back to the ship and directly to sick bay and
00:14:44
Speaker
we find out that Neelix has gone into a coma, or going into a coma, and the doctor can keep stable for one hour, but then he's gonna die, because... It's worse, because actually, none of that, that is all after... No, that's straight away. They ask the doctor, what's wrong with him? He goes, he's had his lungs surgically removed, and he's going into a coma. And then, the doctor... He has no lungs. Yeah, I know. What species does Neelix remind me?
00:15:13
Speaker
Tylaxion. Tylaxion has no lungs. Is that normal? I've just got this image of Dr. Sputcheman going, you have no way of knowing where the heart is on 30 Rock on this. It's irrelevant. The Doctor proves his genius by slapping Tom Paris.
00:15:39
Speaker
He basically finds a way of stabilizing Neelix and getting them an hour of time with the solution.
00:15:50
Speaker
He gets his blood oxygenated, but as the tension rises immediately after that, Neelix's blood toxicity levels are rising. The oxygen level goes down. He can stabilise them for a bit. For an hour, 60 minutes.
00:16:10
Speaker
As I did say. It's a romantic tension. The ticking clock. That is a TV film. But the main thing is like he won't survive unless they get his lumps back. So that kicks off the next bit of action, which is Janeway ordering another away mission back to the planet and she goes along. But you're right. At that point, there's a bit of sass between the doctor and Tom Paris, which is always fun, which will culminate in that hilarious slap scene.
00:16:42
Speaker
But we first go back to the planet where they're trying to find the waiting spot. What the hell has happened? Yeah. Yeah. And they're exploring. And then we go back to the sick bay. Sorry, you're right. There's this Neelix's cellular toxicity is rising. We're back to the sassy doctor. Keir's office is a lung. But the doctor's like, no, that's not gonna work. You're not compatible with it. Yeah, your lung, he'll reject your lung.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm quite surprised that by that point in the future, they have not found a way to like, that's the current medical problem now. There's no way I don't believe that that found a way to avoid like, I think it's called like, no way of knowing if they've found a way of addressing the medical problem of the need for the plot to have a driver.
00:17:36
Speaker
I believe in science, I think by that point, they will have eradicated that problem and you will be able to, you know, all swap organs willy-lilly. I think you're probably right. I didn't think of that. But that is a good point. But this is when a doctor comes up with an alternative plan, which is to use the transport schematics, I think to get the design lungs and then create the holographic lungs.
00:18:02
Speaker
And Tom Parison says, but holograms are just light, light. They have absolutely no physical presence, to which the doctor responds by turning around and slapping him as hard as he possibly can in his face. I'm trying to make a slap sound.
00:18:19
Speaker
Oh nice! It's such a good slap because I don't think it does seem to be as hard as he can. It's very controlled and then the best thing about it is afterwards it turns out he wasn't just doing it because he had offended holograms but because in fact he was making a point.
00:18:34
Speaker
to show that, you know, he can, you know, as a hologram, be solid as well, which is exactly what the lungs will do. Scene is just brilliant. I love it. Yeah, right. It's like very funny. And also, like a really good demonstrates what they're talking about, like, so well, like, okay, of course, the lungs will work. But I actually like rewind because I wrote down that line.
00:18:55
Speaker
that leads to the slats, the slats, the slats. And so I pause and like, Kay's face is so funny, because she's like, looking at the doctor, she's like, what is he doing? Like, she just acts, it's just very funny. Like, she looks like horrified. And do you know what, again, I think they sort of cast Tom Parris as they're asking a stupid question, when in fact, he's asking a stupid question. I would ask the same question, like, how can a holographic pair of lungs actually breathe?
00:19:22
Speaker
oxygen into the blood because they're a hologram. In the some stage in the future, sants will have given us a way of addressing the problem of someone asking a perfectly sensible question in a way that makes them look stupid in the interest of having a plot driver. But you're right. This is like the third time it's happened and maybe that was by design. He's a useful tool, Red. He's a useful tool.
00:19:48
Speaker
He speaks for the layperson such as myself. But yeah, I don't think he's ever commented that in the Delta Flyers podcast, because he does sometimes think like, oh, I wish my character being a bit different or whatever. But yeah, I think you're right. It just seems like in the world of Star Trek, it's sort of like, don't ask questions. You're right, you'll either get told you're stupid or slapped slightly.
00:20:17
Speaker
No, that one with the time travel, whatever, when you ask like a really sensible question, anyway. So the doctors come up with a good plan, but Kez wants to know the risks. And that is when we find out that if he goes ahead, the kind of major side effect is that need to have to stay perfectly still forever. I mean, he'll be alive. And in the holographic suite. So not only where's most
00:20:46
Speaker
Whereas most people who have a, you know, I think it's like locked in syndrome, for example, they can still be transported around the place. They could go and see a beautiful sort of beach or forest and go places. He's basically being kept in this tube that keeps him mobile and all he can do is move his
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah but the tube also can't move like it has to stay in the holographic with the hollow emitters and everything like so it's like double awful isn't it? I guess it's the medical equivalent nowadays of someone with like really serious immune like immune response and so they just can't move anywhere like they have to stay in the
00:21:25
Speaker
I mean, if you are a member of the Starfleet crew there, there is a silver lining to the situation that means that for the portion of time that the plot demanded it, you could absolutely guarantee not being exposed to Neelix if you didn't want to be. That's really darkened me. Let us continue. But then we have a little scene with Tom, like trying to, I guess, support Kiz
00:21:54
Speaker
a guy because he seems to be keen to go ahead with like, I mean, he's like, supports the idea. And he's like, what do you think Neelix would want? But I like her line there because she's like, I'm not sure but I do know I want him to live. Yeah, very clear. Like, it's fair that Tom Paris is being very there for her. Yeah. I think Neelix notices that. When he's not in
00:22:18
Speaker
A coma. Is he still in the coma at that stage? Yes, because they're still discussing how to bring him back. They haven't put the lugs in. So they'll be back on that planet and they pick up a life sign and set off in pursuit.
Pursuit Through Asteroids
00:22:39
Speaker
Yeah. Don't they zap him as well? I'm going to say laser fire. Yeah, phaser fire. Finger guns. Oh yeah, phaser fire, thank you.
00:22:46
Speaker
Don't do that. Don't do the David Brett finger guns. Oh, wow. And Ben Janeway gets a message from Tokote back on Voyager that an alien ship has just run off. Run off. She's like tracked and it was like too late. Yeah. So they came back to Voyager and head off in pursuit.
00:23:10
Speaker
Um, and then we're back in the sick bay and Tom is setting up the isotropic restraint. Does anyone want to explain what that is? A restraint of some kind. It restrains one in an isotropic manner. Good job. Um, doctor activates. I like this, uh, cause it's a hologram. He calls it program Neelix one. They always say like activate, uh,
00:23:36
Speaker
Irish village program or I don't know, whatever, you know, like the death laser when they know when they're not in the holiday, they I don't know. I just thought it was consistent. Does anyone in any Star Trek episode ever come out with a line like activate the death ray? No, yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. There's a whole episode where they get like trapped in some kind of
00:24:02
Speaker
fake holographic cartoon thing. They have to pretend to be the characters and it's like from some kind of like night, really old. I think it is from Flush Gordon. They're playing characters in Flush Gordon. Yeah, it's something is yeah, either Flush Gordon or something really similar.
00:24:26
Speaker
And Janeway plays the love interest of the evil. Yes. Activate the Death Ray. Activate the Sonic Death Ray or something like that. It was a great memory. It's bugging me and I can't remember the name of that.
00:24:45
Speaker
character, but we'll get there. Yeah, me too. It's the evil guy. Yeah. Yeah, me too. It's like on the tip of my tongue. Kinetica. Scarpetica. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Doctor. Maybe later. We'll Google it later. But yeah, the doctor activates his holographic lungs. They have to take him off the other thing that's, I guess, supporting him. There's a toxicity
00:25:08
Speaker
So there's a toxicity that's rising, but then it starts to drop and he gasps. So we're like, I think he's okay. Well, for now. Then we just find out from the captain's log that they're pursuing the ship, but they're like evenly matched. So no progress, basically. And we're back in the sick bay. Wow, there's a lot of sick bay time here.
00:25:30
Speaker
Uh, we find out the lungs are working perfectly, but Neelix is now like awake and asking questions. So Jamie, are you ready to bash a man when he's down? I'm ready to bash Neelix when he's down. Oh, that question is like, when, when do I get out of this restraint? Oh, when do I get something like that? Well, my, well, my notes don't make a lot of sense, but someone says indefinitely.
00:25:55
Speaker
Which I think he takes kind of well, initially. He's kind of his usual upbeat self. I like the fact his response is a joke. Well, I have to say, we need to address the ceiling issue. The ceiling being hideous above him, apparently. That being all he can see. And then when he's like, some music would be nice or better yet, are you programmed to sing to the doctor? Which again, Jenny, I was like, are they alluding to something in the future? Yeah, I thought that as well. Yeah.
00:26:26
Speaker
isn't this also where he um he sees tom talking to kes yes girlfriend yeah no well i mean again he was standing very close before like i was like wow he's really close to her
00:26:43
Speaker
It would be really close in the real world, but in Star Trek world, they all leer over each other and touch each other on the shoulder with their faces like two centimetres apart. There's no personal space in Star Trek. You are 100% correct, because again, on the Delta Flyer podcast, they mention this a lot in the beginning. And it's not something I noticed when I was ever watching. It's just in this specific scene. And obviously, he was supposed to be extra close to kind of give me that spark that jealousy.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, they're like, everyone is like a close talker, or whatever, you know, like, based invader, they have to fit on the screen. So I think it was probably a bit of a camera reason wasn't there? I didn't notice it at all. Like growing up watching. I don't know, maybe it's because of like, you see, actually, a lot of the behaviors that we were, you know, used to with
00:27:40
Speaker
The women do it too. Let's go to what Neelix does next when he sees Tom talking to Kez, supportively, but yes, very close. He accuses parents, he basically
00:27:59
Speaker
says, Oh, so it's Tom now. And he accuses Paris of swooping in like a reptilian vulture. And I had sort of a parentheses of creepy Neelix next to that. But then he sort of nobody says, No, I want you to be happy. You should just let me die. And I was like, he's gone from creepy to no euthanasia. He's getting through all the emotions, isn't he? So like, he's running through the
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if it's all just a sort of weird telexian coping mechanism is immediately in denial. So he goes straight to the comedy value of getting old, look at the ceiling, it's so boring, and then straight into rage. And then he's, then he's jealous and angry. And then there's this sort of morbid acceptance, I guess. It's a, it's a whirlwind of emotions with me. He does agree. I mean, I think he was, he went from kind of taking it stoically to
00:28:54
Speaker
jealousy to self-pity. But, Jamie, you're forgetting his best line when he talks to his butt, Tom Paris. He's just one big hormone walking around the ship. Did you not enjoy that?
00:29:09
Speaker
I didn't think that was his best line, Frank. Oh, I thought you would like that line. But Kess doesn't really put up with it and she can kind of see through his like, she realizes that he's like afraid of it. And also maybe deliberately trying to force her away from him so that she doesn't feel like she's forced to be part of slash with him. And the doctor kicks her out of sick day. Because visiting hours are over. This domestic is also over.
00:29:40
Speaker
And then we're back on the bridge and learn more about the alien tricorder. Well, I'm calling it tricorder, but it's like a confined and extract organs. Yeah. And they're like, it's way more advanced than our technology. We can only zap someone and stun him. This can zap someone, stun him and remove his lungs and scan him. And that's a pretty good shotgun. Yeah, it's pretty good technology. I do love this next scene because I want to talk about something
00:30:09
Speaker
my Janeway, not my team, what I believe is Janeway's leadership philosophy. But what happened, the alien ship drops out of warp and enters an asteroid. And so Tuvok has that great scene where he anticipates Janeway's next move, which is, she obviously wants to enter. And he's like, Captain, may I suggest you carefully consider what you're about to do? And she's like, how do you know what I'm about to do?
00:30:35
Speaker
He's like, how long have we known each other? Yeah. But he's 100% right, because her leadership philosophy is like, she will risk everyone to save the few. Like she is always putting, I don't
00:30:49
Speaker
That is not a criticism. But like, if you very much like you're criticizing Captain Janeway, that is her like approach is like, you'll risk everyone to save one. Before we go any further, and you repeat that one more time, and he washed that potty mat out. Girlfriend. I'd like to invite you to remember the name of the podcast.
00:31:10
Speaker
Janeway's children? No, but we love Janeway. Oh, we love Janeway. I haven't quite decided yet. I'm not worthy of being considered someone who has the leadership or, you know, familial characteristics of Janeway. So I'm glad it's not Janeway's children. So it sounds perilously like you're criticizing her approach to leadership and strategic management there.
00:31:31
Speaker
No. But can I just say one thing that follows on from that is I also feel like when I've learned from watching this show well enough, but I was like, ah, if you're a Starfleet member and you learn up like in any bad situation, you should do the maximum you can to survive or escape because Janeway will meet you halfway.
00:31:48
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's what great. I think that's a great issue because then you know, like whenever anyone's trapped or taken kidnapped anything like that, they're like just immediately they don't panic remotely. Their immediate thought is right. What is now how am I going to get out of this and they're just assuming they will get out they're not going to be like tortured or anything like that. And that
00:32:12
Speaker
is because that she always does come. And also, I think if they're on a starship where everyone's volunteered, then I think she sort of makes that decision, bearing in mind that everyone else on board would probably make that decision as well because they've said, right, I'm going to go and be part of star.
00:32:34
Speaker
What's it called? And you know, they know that it's risking their lives and all this kind of thing. I guess it would be different if you were it was a whole planet moving full of lots of different people. Yeah, she doesn't often get any pushback from anyone. I think she does get pushback later on from seven. He's just more logical. And January is a bit
00:33:01
Speaker
this is not a criticism, but she has an emotional connection with people. So she will try save them with Jamie's value of the individual to the wall. Seven is from the collective. So she's like, what's the deal? She's kind of like, why, why, why don't you definitely let five people die? Because you will definitely keep 30 people alive. Whereas January is more like, let's risk all 35 in the possibility that we could save all 35.
00:33:31
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like I feel like seven could get a role quite easily at McKinsey and company. Yes, I'm sure she could. We're not going to be able to send this one out anymore. I think that'd be like if seven applied would hire her like that she's very smart.
00:34:02
Speaker
And she works very hard, and she just regenerates a few hours every night, so she's probably like the ideal. Yeah, she'd be a real match for HR employee. Um, uh, so they- Any people change. Let's say that again. Maybe, uh, anyway, sorry. Let's, let's leave the seven career at McKinsey and company out. Let's try, I remember that for when she comes in like five, seven hours. Which, which consults with the, which work best for this episode, given the attitudes voiced.
00:34:30
Speaker
I just want to say it was not a criticism, but I loved Janeway. I learned a lot from her in terms of leadership, but I was like, I have to admit, she's willing to risk, as I've said, I'm not going to say it again. Sounds a lot like a criticism. But you also said that already. I'm going to squelch it. I'm not having this here. Okay. So they enter that asteroid and then we go back for sick day.
00:34:51
Speaker
There's this little comic scene where, oh, I also like the way the secretary had been decorated, like sort of seeing the drape three and everything, which is really sweet. Someone had written out that there, I'm assuming, Kaz, because it wasn't the doctor. And Neelix has an urgent request. But it wasn't Neelix either. Wow, your humor is dark tonight. But yeah, Neelix has an urgent request.
00:35:19
Speaker
Jamie, is this not Tiny's Liability 7? He has a... It's an urgent request for company, isn't it? Yeah. I think it's a ruse to get company because he's like, my eyebrow is itchy. Oh, yeah. Alex has an itch. It's one I've written here. I was going to say it appears to be inhabiting a Christmas tree, which is weird given the decor that they have there.
00:35:44
Speaker
It does look like someone has, the way his tube has been decorated, it looks like isotropic restraint. It looks like a Christmas tree. Oh, I don't think I noticed the actual, I just noticed the drapery. But yeah, he is struggling, I think now. I think he's had time for everything to sink in. He gets really, really angry and he ruins his lung.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I thought what was interesting about this scene is that it was actually his panic and emotion that led to his physical symptom. I mean, the doctor had to sedate him, essentially.
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah, you're the panic attack on me. I write down, Dolph does us all a favour and sedates Neelix. Oh my gosh! I don't think you can put this episode out. You're making me actually like Neelix more because I feel bad for him. He's had a really tough time of it and I just don't think the two of you are giving him enough credit. So I thought if I went for a really, really hard offensive of just attacking him hard, you would give him the sympathy he deserves by being like, oh, Jamie's being real twat to poor old Neelix.
00:36:52
Speaker
I know it's working, isn't it? You're both feeling far more sympathetic to him. I mean, I don't think it's the theme of the episode, but I just found that scene really interesting because I think there's something about how your thoughts can drive your, you know,
00:37:08
Speaker
your reality, or like, you can really spiral if you don't take control. I mean, the next is not bad situation. So, but I thought that was interesting. Yeah, it's kind of like the placebo effects, isn't it? Like, what happens in your brain and your thoughts can in fact, affect you physically? Is it like, you know, digestive issues can partly be caused by thinking patterns and, you know, in the placebo effects, you're even things like cancers has been shown to be
00:37:39
Speaker
some kind of effect from a placebo. It's like every clinical trial, there's a placebo effect that has to be counted for. It's fascinating. Agreed. I did think that Dr. Rob Picardo, acting in this end of the scene was so good because he's just, he doesn't say, just that you can see the thoughts, well, the thoughts that I thought, you know, flitting across his face, like,
00:38:08
Speaker
Oh, have I made a mistake? Am I out of my depth? Is this like a procedure gonna work? Like he looks, he seems like concerned and out of his depth, like at that point. He's like, this is a blame on my training. I think like, he's, he's got, what's the thing you call like, in football, like,
00:38:29
Speaker
man of the man of the game. He's a man of the match for this episode. Like he's just indulging in gender profile in this sort of gen. It's not player of the match. Yeah, I was just gonna say we need like a non gender specific one, don't we? Like, yeah, but that doesn't have the alliteration of the episode. It's gonna have alliteration.
00:39:00
Speaker
But we've missed something, guys, because just briefly, in between Neelix being sedated, and then the Doctor being man of the match, we zoom into a hologram of the game, a hologram of the episode, you know, big, big field there.
00:39:20
Speaker
Don't we just go to start Voyager in the Hall of Mirrors? Yeah, that is the next thing. You can explain what that means.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that was pretty clever. I mean, like, unexpected from a story point of view. So for our listeners, effectively, we've panned out to Star Trek Voyager, and the ship that they're pursuing has basically run into this enormous asteroid inside the asteroid. And what's the asteroid made of, if anyone remembers? Organic matter. But Star Trek Voyager follows it in.
00:39:58
Speaker
And apparently the inside of it is so reflective that it feels, it looks to all of their senses as though they're surrounded by hundreds of voyages and of this ship that they were pursuing. Yeah. And Captain Jamie says, it's like a hall of mirrors. Very good.
00:40:18
Speaker
I also have loved her. I like some of her lines at this scene. In particular, the way she delivers the, well, let's not do that then. Let's not just open up in here. She's like, can we fire this in two bucksock? No, because of this, this, this, this. His idea wasn't to fire in that situation. I have my suspicions, but I don't want to throw them around. It sounds like a Neelix plan.
00:40:41
Speaker
He wasn't even there. But then we, they don't come up quite with their planions because we're back at sick bay. And I thought, I liked the fact that the doctors asked kids to come back. I suspect before visiting hours, restarted because he can't handle it. But, uh,
00:41:07
Speaker
Heaven can't have that kind of, oops. No, no, no, you go. You were going to dive into where I was going to dive, so you go. You're just coming through very warbly. Oh, really? Oh, he's fine for me. Oh, that's my connection. Why? I don't know. I mean, I was whispering for a bit. You've both gone warbly actually, so it must be me. Oh, dear. Why? I mean, why? Why? I might just shut teams off.
00:41:37
Speaker
Let's take that away. Let's see if that does anything. Very cool. You should always shut teams under all circumstances. Bye bye, teams. Maybe Excel. Sorry, guys. Okay. Let's see what happens. Oh, yeah, but this is a nice moment or scene with the doctor and kids. Yes.
00:42:06
Speaker
He's great in this scene as well, I think. He's sort of coming to terms with his situation and being completely feeling completely under qualified. And it's sort of impacting his confidence. But then she sort of instills in him the voyager spirit of, you know, you're capable, you're intelligent, and you just have to learn and just teach
00:42:37
Speaker
Yeah. And I love the way she sort of mechanises the argument as well, because she asked, well, how did all these other doctors build the ability level? And he was like, well, experience. And she was like, and do you have the ability to learn as you experience things? She was like, yes. And she's like, well, you'll do the same thing then.
00:42:56
Speaker
And he's trapped in prison of his own logic. You can't get away from the fact that things will be more positive. And I like that. That's how all motivational traps should feel a trap. I do. I do think it's funny, though, because on the one hand, it's a great sort of lesson. And, you know, I agree with what Cass is proposing. But on the other hand, if this was a different scenario where you were like in a job in your day to day work life, it wouldn't
00:43:25
Speaker
like, this is a resourcing issue. I can't do five people's jobs and be paid the same amount. I'm so glad everyone has embraced my decision to adopt an HR influence lens to this. But he does, I think they do end with his question, which is like, have you ever considered a career in, is he called medicine? I don't actually know. But he asked for that.
00:43:55
Speaker
And then I think they're interrupted because it's a power drain in engineering. And they have to shut down the warp core. And this is when they come up with a nifty plan to identify the other ship. Ah, yes. Does anyone else want to explain it?
00:44:18
Speaker
No. I like the phrase, let's use, someone says something like, use phasers like a searchlight. So, and then we just see lots of like ricocheting beams and then like final beam lands like on. Yes. Because all the others are just mirror reflections and therefore the phaser will just go through them. Therefore if they fire the phaser everywhere, the one that it doesn't go through is the real one. Exactly. How was that? That was great. You could have done that.
00:44:48
Speaker
Um, so they find the real ship, real ship. There's two life signs. They beam them aboard and that's when we see, well, the phage. I think we won't be able to put this out if I describe them. So someone else should describe them. Well, they, I think it's like, I mean, I never watched, um, uh,
00:45:16
Speaker
Oh my gosh, what is it called? Nightmare on Elm Street or those kinds of films. But I feel like it was a Star Trek version of- Or like zombie movies. Yeah. Yeah. A kind of like melting face. Yeah, I mean- It's sort of poking out and things like that. I'm really quite glad that, you know, sorry, Jay. Do you want to- I know. But can I ask a really dumb question? Yeah. They beam these individuals on board, right? And they take one look at them.
00:45:45
Speaker
And then the individuals effectively explain what's happening when Janeway, you know, properly puts the verbal leather in and I like that. And what's going on is effectively, they're part of a civilization whose
00:46:01
Speaker
effectively, societal white plague, organ failure, go out and nick organs from other species with the zapper that they had found earlier, as it will forever be known, or maybe the shocker. I don't know which of those names I prefer. The shocker x-ray.
00:46:19
Speaker
And they've explained all this, and they've got this massive horrendous plague and everything like that. Does no one take one look at them and think there might be an infection risk here? No, but that is evaluated when they've beamed aboard. Yeah. When you transport across, you have like a health check or a risk check or whatever. Yeah, there's some kind of filter. Ever, ever, ever. And they think, actually, it's fine.
00:46:47
Speaker
Also though, it's a good point because I only know about the filter thing from like later episodes. Like re-watching it. I don't know if everyone thought that when they saw this episode the first time. Like, what are you doing? Put them in a, you know, in a chamber. Do you comment on actually previous episodes of Star Trek, not Voyager, but Star Trek, in which people might be transporting people who have diseases, reference it? It does come out because
00:47:15
Speaker
I can't remember now, I'm getting confused because sometimes things still get through. Like there's a cases where for some reason, something passes the filter or... There's like, yeah, it's sort of one off cases where there's some mechanism by which it gets through. Yeah.
Confrontation and Ethical Debates
00:47:33
Speaker
But yeah, we do learn about this civilization and kind of their motivation.
00:47:48
Speaker
I don't know too much about it at this stage. But I do think the whole organ
00:48:00
Speaker
using organs is scary. It's a bit like that Haruki Murakami. Who wrote The Remains of the Day? A Japanese guy. Yeah, I'm trying to remember. But he also wrote Kazuichirou. He wrote this book called Never Let Me Go, which is a movie. It was basically that
00:48:25
Speaker
premise was that they discovered ways of prolonging human life by putting organs of folk and other folk. So they effectively raised about 20, 30% of society in these weird sort of
00:48:42
Speaker
British prep school style boarding schools whose entire reason was to have their organs harvested throughout the course of their life to prolong that of the rest of society. Yeah, it's horrible movies. Yeah, I've never seen that. I did read the book. And yeah, it's really so very good book. Yeah, really dark, isn't it? He's amazing, right? It gives us this horrible, horrible bleak
00:49:11
Speaker
feeling throughout the book you know it's yeah I know and it comes across because in the movie as well because there's a sense of there's something truly truly dreadful around the corner um and that's a difficult thing to sort of generate but this isn't quite as bleak as that because generally it's like any of you who try and come for any of my crew mates yeah she's
00:49:34
Speaker
the hell is coming. Yeah, I really enjoy the speech actually. I want to log in there because especially like it gives me chills a little bit when she says there's one line that's something along the lines of in our society, taking a life to save another life is never okay. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. Yeah. And then
00:50:01
Speaker
Yeah, I just don't know why it gives me chills. I think in a positive way. Yeah. Okay. But, and she's also kind of, um, she does ask for the lungs back and we find out they can't return them because they're already in. Oh, so the two aliens are, or the two videos are Dereth and Matura or something. Okay. Found out the names. Um, I'm sorry. Yeah, we skipped ahead. No, no, no. I'm just saying I did bother finding out the names, so I'm going to share them because I can never, I have to look them up because I can't like,
00:50:28
Speaker
hear them. But yeah, her speech there is really good and also powerful. But in the end, she's like, she realizes she can't really execute them because she can't, well, that's against human principles. She can't like, punish them because they're not in a position to take them to authorities or whatever. So she's like, I have to let you go. I don't really have anything else I can do. But she kind of gives them a, as you said earlier, Jamie, like, is that
00:50:57
Speaker
a very strong warning. And then the one guy, the one alien, I guess out of gratefulness is like, well, maybe we can help actually, because our medical sciences are much more advanced than yours. So we go back to the sick bay. And I did laugh because straight away, one of the deans manages to insult the doctor. Yeah, I love his reaction. He's like, you could put her organs in him. He's like, come on, it'll be rejected. It's like,
00:51:27
Speaker
That's very primitive of you. activate his immune response to it. I think he's insulting the holographic lungs as well. I just think the doctor's brilliant acting in this episode. I mean, all he does in response is sort of, you know, glance and, you know, looking fed up, but it's just so well done. It's
00:51:54
Speaker
And even when the guy scans them, and he's like, Oh, according to my thing, you're not here. He's like, I wish I wasn't. I love the way that looks very strange that someone who appears to be here, but not here. One of the creatures who has the diseases, it seems to be okay, but one of them is so anxious and sucky. It's horrendous.
00:52:21
Speaker
And he's the one who scans and goes, you appear not to be here. He's the worst. I do kind of love the whole concept that, and this happens a lot in Star Trek actually, when they meet a species that has undergone a lot of hardship and a particular type of hardship.
00:52:37
Speaker
the result is that they've actually made leaps and bounds in that particular area. So in this case, because they've had this awful phage, they're way ahead in medical terms compared to other species. And, you know, like, you know, they meet others who are like, they've had to suffer through many years of warfare, but it means they can defend themselves really well. And I quite like that idea that it sort of makes you think, oh, no matter what, terrible things happen in life. I mean, obviously, they are terrible, but
00:53:08
Speaker
maybe, you know, it's a bit like when you watch the cheesy movies Armageddon and things. And there's that speech from the actor who plays the American president and at the end of the saying, we're able to save the planet due to, you know, all of even everything, all the progress we made over the years, including even the wars that we fought have led to this technology. It's a nice idea to think that all this sort of pain and suffering, you know,
00:53:36
Speaker
contributes to something positive somewhere along the line historically. Yeah, I really like that. And also I think it, I mean, it makes kind of sense. So it's like, you're not like, oh, why do they have these great skills? It's like, oh, these are hard fought, hard won skills that they have to develop. So like, in terms of like a character, I mean, I know it's like a whole race of aliens, but there's like, makes them more believable in a sense. Yeah. They're not just arbitrarily good at something.
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah, for no reason. And this is why I could get into discussions about more recent series of Star Trek, but I won't. Oh my God. Oh, I did watch some. It's like some happy magical. Anyway, I just do get this. I mean, I'm supposed to go, I just want to say one thing. I've never, why would, okay. He isn't really, um, to be fair.
00:54:32
Speaker
wasn't really, I can't even remember, but that guy smoking a cigar in his captain seat. I'm talking about the Picard series. I don't know which one you watched. Oh, I know. I was talking about the... I love the idea of someone smoking a cigar. It's not really Starfleet.
00:54:48
Speaker
What was the one with the male? Yeah, well neither was Belanna Torres and we both said she did an amazing job. Belanna Torres is not constantly having emotional breakdowns and crying like every other day which is what happens in the one which I can't remember. What do you want to say? Jamie, what is the one you know I ranted a lot to Nicola about when we had brunch that time?
00:55:10
Speaker
I think I need 30 seconds because you read about it so much, I actually bought it on iTunes. And then I watched a couple of episodes and it was after shite. I'm going to find out the title from my series. It was very, to me, it didn't have any of the core things which make Star Trek Star Trek, which was, you know, very disappointing.
00:55:36
Speaker
It was kind of fun to watch though, if you're not expecting Star Trek. Okay. I think I did start watching Discovery, but I don't have strong memories. I need to probably watch more. Maybe I only watched one, but I, I'm kind of going to watch Picard season three, I think, because they're bringing back all these characters from the Doctor Beverly Crusher. And, um, so that I might, I might get better. It's like, it's not, it's not very, I mean, seven.
00:56:06
Speaker
Isn't it? And I love them, but it's like, it's not Star Trek. It's like a lot of it is set in like on earth now. It's like, why? It's not what you're looking for. Yeah. I watched the first season of Picard and I, yeah, I know what you mean. It's sort of, I think you could probably enjoy both of them as a, if you're not really expecting traditional Star Trek. It's not that they're bad. It's just, um,
00:56:36
Speaker
Yeah, you got to set expectations. I don't like discovery because it's a very, everyone's very emotional. And there's lots of things that you're like, this is just, it's a bit like a drama fest, you know, it's all very, they're all very melodramatic all the time. And it just makes it well, they wouldn't seriously be psyched off on their psych evaluation to join staff.
00:57:03
Speaker
every, every other five seconds. I mean, maybe I need to try again. But yes, this is a rant for another podcast. I was very keen to get into it. I've got a lot of podcast material here that I could bring to other podcasts usefully. So this is good.
Critique of New Star Trek Series
00:57:20
Speaker
I don't want to be negative, but it's like they found, somehow they found writers that know nothing about Star Trek. That's my main problem. And some pretty bad actors, I've got to say.
00:57:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is all coming from a place of love, just because we love Boya Jo and the other ones so much. Also to be fair, I have very high standards for any TV that I watch, so I could say it's about a lot of shows that lots of people love and I don't. But back to this episode to wrap up, it's actually gone quite quickly, you might finish on time.
00:57:56
Speaker
I do like the little scene with Jamie and Neelix before he goes, I guess, under for his operation. It's quite a sweet, tender scene when she's like, I look forward to sampling your cooking, as I guess he's forgiven for taking over a private dirty room. And the transplant's obviously successful. Although, I tell you what, because we're on time, we skipped one little bit, which I was like, this is quite hilarious, actually, in true Star Trek fashion.
00:58:26
Speaker
they ask, would anyone be willing to donate a log? And he's like, yes. And Alex is like, no, absolutely not. I just love the way she's like, she literally says one sentence and he's like, oh, okay. It's like the level of convincing. I can do no rational argument in Star Trek. Yeah, she does. Well, she had already volunteered before and well, not that he knew, I guess, but
00:58:54
Speaker
Also, what I thought was kind of funny was like, he was basically fair enough. But he was basically saying, I don't care if someone else dies, like donating a lung to me. Death to anyone who has lungs apart from me. But yeah, you're right. We did skip over that. So she does land up giving her lung. And then we see her and Neelix kind of in recovery in this insect bay. And she wakes up first and is talking to the doctor.
00:59:24
Speaker
And he tells her that Janeway has approved her training to become a medical assistant. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. Yeah, although I did think that maybe she might be a better fit for a sort of Diana Troy style counsellor figure. Oh, but I guess maybe they couldn't do that coming right after. I don't know, like maybe it's too similar to the previous series. Or... You don't mess with the Colonel's recipe. I know.
00:59:54
Speaker
Uh, but she is, she is, I mean, when I was thinking about it, she is like the perfect match for the doctor. Cause in this episode, he's still so cold. I mean, at one point I was like, well, it's so cold, but I forgot he's still like very much just actually a program. Uh, it has no bedside manner whatsoever. And he needs someone he could learn from. I think that's, uh, very like in tune with people and others. So I think we all make a good.
01:00:22
Speaker
complement each other well I guess. Yeah what I love is that he initially you would maybe think but he's specific
01:00:35
Speaker
things is the bedside manner. So seems very unlikely that they would, you know, design something. But no, this is the thing. In later episodes, they explain, they explain what it is. And also you've happened to find out, I won't give it away, but what actually happened to his program back on Earth as a result of this lack of bedside manner. So it is all explained later on, which I just think is brilliant. That is clever. That is really clever.
01:01:03
Speaker
Jenny, any major themes or lessons, I guess, that you... Yeah. Oh, gosh. Nothing like massively sprang to mind this one, to be completely honest. I just kind of sat back and enjoyed it and let it wash over me. I don't know. It's probably not because it's lacking in themes. It just happened to be one of those episodes. But I guess the whole concept of organ donation and taking a life to save another life is
01:01:33
Speaker
Well, there was that whole, um, I can't remember when it happened, but there was that period where they were using, they were trying to transport pigs heart into, to save a kid's life. Um, and there was a whole discussion about ethics of that. Um, which, um, you know, it was kind of topical at that time. I'm not sure when that was. Um, and, um, bit of an old one considering a lot of humans
01:02:00
Speaker
kill animals just to eat them. So yeah, so if you're gonna, you know, do that, then surely you're gonna say I mean, yeah, so I don't know, maybe that's what they were sort of trying to bring in. I'm not sure when that first probably had a lot to do with organ donation and transplant because I now I think of it as like so routine.
Ethical Issues in Organ Donation
01:02:26
Speaker
But I mean, that's also because we live in the UK and Europe where you're an organ donor by
01:02:32
Speaker
It's like opt out. I mean, the States, I think is still opt in. I mean, that is, personally, this could be a controversial topic. Sorry, zero listeners, but I think that's insane. Yeah, kind of is. Although a number of lives you could save. I mean, I watched Chicago, it's called like Chicago Med or something.
01:02:53
Speaker
Which is not us, but it's a drama, medical drama, which I love, but they're always like fighting for organs or hunting and obviously, you know, it's not like they're running feral on the streets. It's a TV. So that's like big deceive, like cajole people who have the organ, like will have family members that have the organs. Seems like it should be up to that. Yeah. And then there's whole like ethical things around
01:03:23
Speaker
Um, there's a movie a while back. Um, I can't remember if it was based on true story, but it was where, um, parents, the scenario was the parents had a child, but it had a condition that was going to kill it at like age 20 or something. And so they actually gave birth to another child, um, in order for that, that child to donate, um, because they'd be likely to be a genetic match. Um, but then what if that child says, I don't want to donate and
01:03:52
Speaker
That's a bit of an ethical conundrum. And then there was also the whole thing about stem cell use, because obviously they have this, I mean, I think they are doing it now, but I'm not sure it's not sort of... That was a huge religious question.
01:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not sure what stage it is at these days, but basically, they're growing organs from stem cells. So there's no need to harvest any organs from anyone. But of course, there's all kinds of like, ethical considerations, because people consider, some people consider stem cells life and, you know, there's the whole religious aspect that comes into it. It's complicated.
01:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think that back to that sibling one, was that the book by Jodie Pico, I don't know how to say it, like Jodie Pico, Pico, Pico, Pico, that went back. That was, I think I read that. That was pretty, I mean, that was a fictional story, but then there's like a whole twist because yeah, the other sibling is like, actually, I don't want to be doing this anymore. I feel empathy, but
01:04:59
Speaker
It's your job to look out for all your kids, not just one of your kids. Yeah. In my opinion. Making some other poor kid grow up with, you know, the moral imperative to give away its organs when it might not want to is just morally wrong. And it's kind of a similar question. Because in one way, that alien, those lungs are Neelixes, they belong to Neelix.
01:05:25
Speaker
But in the other way, which is the way I agree with what Jane was saying stands true, that it would just be taking a life to save another life. You know, it would be different if they'd just taken the lungs and they hadn't actually transported into the other being. But unfortunately, they have. But I do think it's quite
01:05:49
Speaker
a sort of impressive stance for her to take. It's quite brave to be saying to them, I won't take them back. I'm letting you go. You know, it's her crew member who's going to die as a result of that. And these beings have taken what was his and keeping him alive, but she'd still let them go because it's the ethical thing to do. It's quite impressive. And she's clearly furious about it. Yeah.
01:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, she takes the high road, but it does also in a way pay off, you know, like, because I mean, she can't anticipate that. But it's it's odd, though, because there's a there's a difference in moral stances between the two creatures who have the disease. One of them is, I mean, the anxious one is just like,
01:06:36
Speaker
you've got no right to feel anything about this. The other one is, obviously, we massively, massively regret this. And I think that contrition probably colours Janeway's reaction. Yeah, so I think, I mean, that just sparked a thought is, you know, some people are so wrapped up in their experience, that they cannot see another perspective. I think they want the deareth. He is like that. He's just like, you should feel sorry for me. Like, I don't have to worry about you. Like,
01:07:06
Speaker
Whereas the other one can see beyond mature or whatever, beyond his own experience and feel empathy for someone else. I found that a bit weird, that one, you know, when he was saying to his mate, you don't have to explain yourself, don't feel you need to explain yourself. And I was a bit like, that's an interesting stance to take. I was like, I wonder why you're saying that.
01:07:37
Speaker
Maybe they're saying, look, it's so personal to our species and our circumstance that others couldn't understand, but they would do exactly the same where things reverse, so don't even bother. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably it, isn't it? They'd never understand. It generally does understand. That's why she has the... But my lesson was
01:07:59
Speaker
Always obey orders. If something bad might happen, obey the rules. That's definitely the lesson I would have taken when I was watching as a kid. I'd be like, must obey the rules, otherwise bad things happen. regulations are there for a reason. They're there to keep you safe. Oh, yeah. There's a great British
01:08:30
Speaker
Oh, he was talking, but we can't hear him. Please continue. I was going to say there's a great. Sorry. There's a great British or very British take on this. Although I might be, oh dear, I might be confusing it with Star Wars now. But basically the whole Brexit, the Brexit thing, there was a great meme doing the rounds that was sort of trying to explain in Star Trek or Star Wars terms.
01:08:58
Speaker
house, half the UK saw it and the other half saw it. And so there was this is what remainers see when they see the European Union and it was basically Starfleet. This is what Brexiteers see when they see the European Union. And it was, yeah, it was like the Death Star. What's the name of the Darth Vader?
01:09:24
Speaker
The Empire. The Empire, yeah. Like, basically. It's really a good way of putting it because we are, we think we're all looking at the same thing and actually everyone has. Yeah, that's quite helpful, actually. Oh, I think I get it now. I mean, I'm not going to change my mind on it, but I think I can start to understand how they're viewing the EU in a certain way. I think that is a very clever meme.
01:09:56
Speaker
And then you award Man of the Master to you. You mean about Nenix, you can't be mean about anyone else now. Man of the Master to the Doctor. Absolutely, that's my choice, yeah. What are your Man of the Master matches? I know, I agree. Same for you, what about... Jay? My hologram of the episode.
01:10:23
Speaker
But there's only one hologram. I know. I don't understand why you guys keep giving that out, like it's a massive title. But I think his job performance assessment forms would reflect the fact he was most value adding exec member of the episode. Yes. Back to each other. I think it's important we maintain a veneer of professionalism in this Starfleet crew.
01:10:48
Speaker
I like this. Can we do this every episode? I've made a note, but please remind me. Highest performing crew member. Yeah, absolutely. Any constructive feedback to give to any crew members, such as, I don't know, Tom Paris, personal space respect training, Neelix, just how not to behave when you're in a hostile environment.
01:11:18
Speaker
Captain Janeway house would be intimidating with, you know, some degree of moral integrity. Yeah, I think
01:11:26
Speaker
I think a doctor does this a bit, but I'm sure their trophy will rotate. Maybe, oh, maybe we should call it star player. Oh, gender neutral. MVP, MVP, who's valued player. And also star player. Oh, I love it, actually, because you know what, it's kind of like got the player thing as if it's like a Shakespearean theater. Oh, I thought you meant like... Yeah, well, it has all these double meanings. It's great. Yes, MVP. So are you singing with star player?
01:11:54
Speaker
MVP, MVP. I like Star Trek, Star Play. Yeah. Oh my God, so this is a great choice. I didn't even see that red. So many reasons. Yeah. Okay. Let's do that. Great. I'm going to hit stop recording and then we can plan the next one, which will be, I heard them say it on the podcast, but I'm ready for cotton. Sorry.