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One on One - Jean Heaton
218 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Gretchen Crowder interviews Jean Heaton.
Jean Heaton is a blogger, writer, speaker, teacher, and a workshop and retreat leader.
Both her husband and son are in long-term recovery and she has worked her own Twelve Step program for those affected by the addictions of others.
She shares her experience, strength, and hope with others at www.jeanheaton.com.
Check out her book Helping Families Recover from Addiction: Coping, Growing, and Healing through 12 Step Practices and Ignatian Spirituality
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If this episode hits home and you feel you have your own story to share, email Gretchen at lovedasyouarepod@gmail.com.
Follow along and contribute to the conversation @lovedasyouarepod on Instagram.
Find more from Gretchen Crowder @gdcrowder as well as at gretchencrowder.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Jean Heaton's Background
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to Loved As You Are, an Ignatian podcast with me, Gretchen Crowder. I am so glad you are here. Fall is speeding by so quickly. I cannot believe it is already the first few days of October.
00:00:17
Speaker
In fact, I feel a little bad that I did not get this episode out to all of you during September because my guest Jean Heaton is speaking about what it means to be loved as you are, particularly in the context of addiction.
00:00:31
Speaker
September was Addiction Awareness Month, but as anyone who has battled an addiction or loves someone who has battled an addiction knows, the necessity for awareness exceeds far beyond a single month. So in that case, maybe it's a good thing that I'm just getting this episode to you now. Jean Heaton is a blogger, writer, speaker, teacher, and a workshop and retreat leader. Both her husband and son are in long-term recovery
00:00:56
Speaker
and she has worked her own 12-step program for those affected by the addictions of others. She shares her experience, strength, and hope with others at geneheaton.com, which I will link in the show notes. This is such an important conversation. It is such a necessary conversation. I'm glad you are here to take this journey alongside Gene and I as we wrestle with what it means to be loved as we are, no matter what.
00:01:26
Speaker
You won't want to miss a minute. So, here we go.
00:02:06
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast, Jean. I just told my listeners that we first met through another one of my guests. Uh, I can't remember if it was episode nine or 10, but Christiane Squires was my guest that we met through and her book writing courses. And then we were both founding members of the lighthouse that she now runs. I know we both try to be active in there. It's difficult sometimes with the many things that we have going on.
Addiction and Spirituality
00:02:30
Speaker
But I remember calling you very early on to chat about book writing. I actually can't remember how I got your number, but you were finishing up your book and I was researching all that went into writing a book, even though I still haven't written one. And I wanted to pick your brain on that process. It feels like that conversation was just yesterday, but I think it's been, I don't know, four or five years of knowing you remotely. So I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Welcome. Thank you for coming on.
00:02:58
Speaker
Well, thanks for having me. It's just always good to talk about this topic that isn't talked about. We need to turn a light on the problem of addiction. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to do that.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yes, and that topic fits so well, I think, with this idea of being loved as we are in all the different facets of who we are. I'd like to mention your book right up front by telling you that in one of my classes, well, in both of the classes that I'm in right now, I have discussion postings, and I'm a couple of those classmates mentioned 12-step programs being a part of their lives.
00:03:35
Speaker
And I felt like I was your, I don't know, seller, like that. I was getting a commission because I was like, oh, there's this great book. We're talking about Ignatian spirituality and 12 steps. And you may never have heard of it, but if you want to check it out, here's a great way to incorporate what you're learning in class with the 12 steps that you are familiar with. Right. So yeah, you may get a couple of sales off of that. I don't know. Or they may think I'm crazy because it's only like week one and they're like, she's trying to sell us her friend's book, but
00:04:05
Speaker
Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about your book, the title, where it comes from, what the inspiration was? Sure. Title is helping families recover from addiction using the 12 Steps and Ignatian Spirituality as practices to help families recover. It came about because I experienced family addiction in an adult child and rocked my world. And I didn't want to do anything wrong. I felt like, you know, I'd already messed up
00:04:35
Speaker
plenty with where we found ourselves to be. And so I was told to go to a 12 step meeting and I did. I did everything they told me to do, but, um, you know, they use some language around naming God that as a convert made me uncomfortable because I just didn't know. And I wanted to make sure I didn't do anything wrong. So I started researching the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. And specifically I put in my browser history of Alcoholics Anonymous and the Catholic church just to see
00:05:05
Speaker
if I would get any hits. And I did in a Jesuit priest named Ed Dowling. And so I started learning about the common themes that ran between the 12 steps and Ignatian spirituality. It took a long time because I am a convert. I didn't even know who the Jesuits were. I didn't know who Ignatius of Loyola was. And so it was a long process of learning and trying to dig out. And it was a spirituality that I just kind of
00:05:34
Speaker
fell in love with it. It felt so organic and natural and it did fit in with the 12 steps. And so those two practices really became lifelines to our family.
00:05:48
Speaker
and still practice them today and probably will always practice it. Yeah, so I find it so interesting that, you know, I often ask guests who are familiar with Ignatian spirituality where they first came to know it. It's so interesting that the reason you came to know it is simply because the Catholic that was writing about this connection between the 12 steps and Ignatian spirituality and Catholicism was a Jesuit, right?
00:06:14
Speaker
There is that opportunity to say, oh, who are you? And it's just so interesting because everybody has a different way in to what Ignatian spirituality is. But once we discover it, we find such great connections to our real life experience, which is seemingly what you found enough to be able to write a whole book about it. Well, you know, desperation, desperation is a good reason to just
00:06:44
Speaker
dig in and find out everything you need to know because lives were on the line, literally.
Understanding God and Recovery
00:06:50
Speaker
And it was a desperation. I read everything I could get my hands on and learned everything that
00:06:55
Speaker
I could learn and did all the things they told me to do until it became something that was understandable and applicable and life-giving. Yeah, so you said at the beginning when you were talking about the language that was being used at the 12-step meetings about God and how you understood God, who do you understand God to be now? How has that idea formed, especially that you've been through this exploration process?
00:07:25
Speaker
That's a really interesting question. I have kind of a story behind who how I see God now, especially relative. Let me give you the starting point. The way I saw God, you know, in the beginning, I grew up in a Southern Baptist home with a very religious grandmother who was very strict, who used to warn me, you know, God won't like it if you do this or if you do that. And so quite intentionally, I'm sure she didn't
00:07:55
Speaker
changed my behavior as much as she changed the image that I held of God. And it made him really distant and punishing. And, you know, I just didn't really want to get too close because I was pretty sure that whatever it was I was doing was going to fall short. You know, as I began the recovery process, because families have to recover too. And as I began that process, I was really called on the mat of
00:08:21
Speaker
You know, who is the God of your understanding? So I took that language that I was afraid of and started using it to expand the idea that I had of God. So who is the God of your understanding? Is he really a higher power or are you the God of your understanding? You know, so that really helped me to challenge what I had been thinking, to become aware of what I'd been holding all these years. I will say that I had an experience about
00:08:51
Speaker
a year and a half ago that really changed the way I saw God. I went to an open AA speaker meeting, and those meetings are where the speaker gets up and tells their story. This is how it was, this is what happened to make a change, and this is how things are now. Your regular three-act
00:09:12
Speaker
play and that's that people share their story. And I don't remember this person's story so much, but I listened. And when it was over, I dig it into my purse to see if I'd missed any calls or anything. And the meeting goes through this process where they, they start giving out chips. And the first tip they give out is what's called a desire chip. Is there anyone here that has a desire to quit drinking? You know, they can be having, they can have a bottle in their car before they walk into the meeting. And if they have a desire.
00:09:42
Speaker
they can get that chip. And then they go to 30 days and 60 days and 90 days and then to annual medallions. And so they were doing all that. I wasn't paying attention. I pulled out my phone to look and all of a sudden I hear the room erupt. I looked at my husband and I was like, what in the world? And he said, uh, that's Jane Doe. And I said, so, and he said, so she's got enough desire chips to fill a shoe box.
00:10:10
Speaker
meaning she's tried and failed and tried and failed and tried and failed. And here's a room full of people who are giving her a standing ovation for trying again. And it just gripped me. It was, there is nowhere else in this world where you see the scriptures in real time. In real time, I saw the prodigal son in scripture. In real time,
00:10:39
Speaker
I saw Jesus going back for the least and the lost. I mean, in real time, I saw the image of God change for me because she was a mess and they were fist bumping and cheering and doing all the things I think we're supposed to be doing. But I saw it live and it really changed me and it changed the image that I hold of God. So that's how I see God now.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that because when I think of the prodigal son's story, I always think it has a nice neat ending, right? The son gets welcomed home and we just see this reconciliation moment. But then it could happen that the next day he leaves again, right? And then he comes home again. And so to really think about that idea that all these stories in the gospel only show you literally a glimpse of the interactions. And if you think about the fact that
00:11:38
Speaker
God's response would be the same every time. And it would always be magnanimous love and welcome and taking you as you are in that moment and celebrating you. Yeah. That's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing it. I know that is probably a story that many people have witnessed over time, right? So those that have attended AA meetings probably can say, oh no, I've seen that too, or I've been a part of that too.
00:12:08
Speaker
But it's very moving when you're experiencing it in real time. Yeah, such a sense of community, I imagine, of people that all really understand this one facet of themselves that they all have in common. But then they also get to hear each other's stories and know there's all these other things that are different between them. There's all these other wonderful things about them.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, just a lot of humility in those rooms. So how do you think your constant... Well, I think I know, but is there a way that you can put towards how your idea of God fits with this idea of being loved as you are? I mean, I think your story encapsulated it, but I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that.
00:12:51
Speaker
Well, you know, I think learning to trust and it didn't like, I didn't just stumble upon this one story and it changed me. I mean, there were lots of little changes along the way, little things that would happen where I would just say, okay, what do I do now? And I thought it would come into my mind. And so I've, I've realized over time how loving God is. He really does want to help us when we're lost and confused, but also in our joys, because, you know, sometimes I'll,
00:13:20
Speaker
pray and I'll have what I think is a desire of my heart, you know, but I want to be sure, is it really, is it authentic, you know, go through the discernment process? Is this really something that I think is God's will for my life? You know, just seeing how gracious he is in fulfilling dreams when they align with his will, it's just been a wonderful, I mean, I'm sorry that it took this family
00:13:48
Speaker
problem to bring me into relationship with God in this way, but I'm also grateful for it. Yeah, I mean, I'm at the early stages of being a mom. I have three young kids and your kids grown, but it's amazing how your children are often the ones that kind of break things open for you.
00:14:10
Speaker
look back at maybe what I imagined having children would be or who my children would be. And none of that is true, right? They're as imperfect and as messy as I am. They're also, you know, incredibly beautiful too. But I feel like
00:14:26
Speaker
We don't really know ourselves until we're adults and those of us that have children, we really find out who we are through them and through these situations, right? Yes. Yes. I think there's a, you know, about iron being the impurities of iron being burned away. I think about that relative to my children because, you know, they certainly help you be honest with yourself, you know?
00:14:53
Speaker
and find truth because they just do, you know, they're little truth tellers, so. Yeah. And you often see that you're working on some kind of quote unquote imperfection in your child, but really it's like a mirror back at you of like things you didn't know about yourself until you were experiencing them with another person.
00:15:13
Speaker
So you came to know Ignatian spirituality through your interactions and through your story with AA and being a mom and supporting your family. How did the elements of Ignatian spirituality fit in with this concept of AA? What are some of the elements that really resonate very well with the 12-step program?
00:15:36
Speaker
It took me a little while to figure out what the commonalities were, what the parallels were. Finally, I asked myself, what is it that these two things do to heal people? What do they do to help a person find recovery? It occurred to me that they're really both about relationships to God, self, and others.
00:15:59
Speaker
They both follow that. The 12 steps, the first three steps are about your relationship to God. I think that the principle and foundation is when you've worked those three steps, you've accomplished the principle and the foundation. They really are hand in hand. Then steps four through six are about your relationship to what I call my essential self. It's the self that God created that before I messed it up, the one that I thought, well, maybe it should look like this.
00:16:28
Speaker
to fit in or it should behave this way to be worthy. You know, all the things we do to kind of mess up that essential self. And so the fourth through the sixth step help us get back to that. And then step seven through nine.
00:16:44
Speaker
help us to heal our relationships with other people. And then the last three steps are about maintaining those relationships. So, you know, I mentioned the principle and the foundation and the two standard meditation, which I think is so good also for helping us. I mean, it's easy to say, you know, I'm going to follow God and not the enemy and our words and our actions need to align so that two standard meditation is really good at helping keep us honest.
00:17:11
Speaker
Honesty is a big part of the recovery movement. You know, if you're not honest, you're not going to get better. So some of the tools of Ignatian spirituality help you stay honest.
Attachments and Spiritual Practices
00:17:20
Speaker
Then we go on to in those maintenance steps. Step 10 is taking a daily inventory. Well, that's, you know, the exam and prayer. I mean, it's really astonishing how very similar these two practices are. You know, if I want to know how to
00:17:40
Speaker
be my essential self, I study how Jesus behaved in the world. So where the 12 Stat Program is lacking, Ignatian spirituality kind of fills in those gaps and vice versa. So it's really been a gift to have both
00:17:56
Speaker
of these practices to use. Yeah. And I think that I've mentioned the first principle and foundation before. For my listeners who aren't familiar with a couple of those things, the first principle and foundation is really the opening exercise of the spiritual exercises, which asks really some difficult things of those entering the retreat to say, trying to establish this indifference, this ability to be okay with whatever decision that God is leading you to, instead of holding on tightly to what you want.
00:18:24
Speaker
in your life. It's probably not the most adequate description, but a small description of that. And then the two standards is another meditation in the exercises where you're asked to look at, am I standing on the side of Christ or am I standing on the side of the world, really being connected to those worldly interests, as opposed to, again, what God is wanting for us.
00:18:46
Speaker
I think what's so beautiful about both of those is that it doesn't say that the world is all bad, the world is not bad, or the things of the world are not bad. It's when we have a disordered attachment to something, which in your experience with the 12-step program, that's often thought of as like drugs or alcohol, but we all have disordered attachments to something.
00:19:09
Speaker
Right. And all the steps you just said seem like we could all use times to go through those for the various things that we hold fast to, whether it's our opinions or our selfishness or other things that, you know, people have addiction to as well. I don't know if that resonates with your experience. It does. It does. It does. I think everybody is addicted to something, just what you said. And it's not, you know, just take my word for it. There's a.
00:19:37
Speaker
a physician named Gerald May, who wrote a book called Addiction and Grace. And he firmly believes that we're all addicted to something. And I mean, he is listen, listen, listen. And it's basically anything that you choose to feel better with, that isn't God. When you're putting any sort of thing, an action or a substance, anything that you use rather than
00:20:03
Speaker
going to God with the things that are hurting you inside. Yeah. Is it also, or am I incorrect to say anything that distracts you from really dealing with whatever it is that you need to deal with, right? Whether that's looking at those elements of yourself that you don't want to see or you're uncertain about, or dealing with a relationship that might not be good at the time. Like those are the things that we often will
00:20:30
Speaker
find something to like block ourselves from from dealing with those emotions. So an interesting fact is that opiates don't take away pain. They take away your awareness of pain. And so that's what we're doing when we scroll our phones, when we binge watch something.
00:20:50
Speaker
when we do drugs or alcohol or overeat or shop or, you know, any of the many, many, many things that we choose to distract ourselves. One of the 12 step ideas is that we become aware and then we accept what is, and then we can change with action. So it's kind of that three tiered process, awareness, acceptance, and action. And nation spirituality really does those same three things. You think about it.
00:21:19
Speaker
Do you think that one of the reasons why we all have kind of an addiction is something we want to kind of
00:21:27
Speaker
numb, whatever experiences is because of this uncertainty of ourselves that we don't really know if we're loved as we are. Like I know that's the title of my podcast, but I also feel like I have a lot of these conversations to remind myself of that truth, but also that we have trouble loving ourselves as we are as much as, you know, maybe we can accept that God may love us as we are, but to love ourselves as we are is a really challenging thing to
00:21:55
Speaker
No, I totally agree with that. And it's hard to see and understand in the beginning, but you know, that experience, that story that I told you in the beginning, one of the things that I noticed when I realized that that's that room, the behavior of that room was probably more in line with the way that God loved me than I've ever understood before. When that clicked, the next thing that I thought was, well, I'm okay.
00:22:25
Speaker
Because if God is that way, then I'm okay. You know, I'm okay. And I do think we have trouble because we're imperfect people, born to imperfect people and in an imperfect world. And, you know, it's hard. It's hard to accept that sometimes.
00:22:45
Speaker
So I know beyond writing the book, you do some other work with families and with retreats. Can you tell us a little bit? Because I think it fits into one of my questions. That's how do you help people understand their belovedness? And I think one of the ways that you try to do that is through your retreat work and other things that you do. Right. I do do retreats.
00:23:07
Speaker
And I do them on various steps and then whatever parallels, Ignatian spirituality aligns with that. Like sometimes I'll do the first three steps. And step one just says that, you know, I'm powerless. And it makes me recognize that maybe I've been trying to be the God of my understanding. And that was surprising to me in the beginning, but that's one of the gifts of the three steps is that it points out many times we're trying to run our own show.
00:23:37
Speaker
And it doesn't usually work out too well. And so we finally get to the place where we're powerless. And so that's when we can say, but there is a power that's greater than you. And for Christians who have gone to church their whole life, they often want to skip over step two. Oh, I've got step two. I know God. And so one of the things that I suggest to them is, okay, well, let's heal the image of God that you hold.
00:24:04
Speaker
Let's use step two to heal that image. One of the scriptures that I use is when Jesus is talking to Peter and he says, you know, who do they say that I am? You know, when he's referring to the cross, who do they say that I am? And then who do you say that I am? And I just ask people to reflect on those two things. Who were you taught consciously and unconsciously? And did it align with what you read in scripture? But then compare that to
00:24:34
Speaker
who you know God to be in your own personal relationship. And just to really become aware of what it is, is there some reason that it's hard to trust God with our loved ones? So I do do retreats. I speak in different places mainly because addiction is such a stigmatized topic. And I think that the more we talk openly about it,
00:25:04
Speaker
the less that stigma can sting. We've conflated the term secret and anonymous. Anonymous is always good to not out a person unless they want to be outed, but we can't hide the secret. We have to talk about it. We have a lot of problems with mental illness, which goes right along with addiction and suicide. Those three things are
00:25:30
Speaker
often co-occurring when there's a problem, the more we can talk about it and take away the mystery and the fear, the more people are going to be willing to reach out for help.
Faith, Mental Health, and Stigma
00:25:44
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that especially the topic of mental illness is becoming, and mental health in general is just becoming bigger in secular circles, right? People are talking about it. People are mentioning that they're going to therapists. People are advertising, talking about what they've learned. And so in that way, that's
00:26:01
Speaker
That's really wonderful that it is a big topic of conversation and people see it and it isn't as a foreign anymore, but combining that with faith, combining that with religion, combining that with Catholicism, that's the thing where more
00:26:18
Speaker
I think needs to be said and more needs to be put together and more resources like the book that you've written that just kind of say, how does my faith respond to issues of mental health that I may have? Or how does my faith respond to addictions that me or other members of
00:26:38
Speaker
you know, my family are facing. I found that even learning my kids had learning differences and hearing loss, just having those kind of things that were slightly out of my experience as a child myself, well, not completely out of my experience, but I just know. But when I look at those things and then look for the church to help me with them, I don't see
00:27:04
Speaker
as much on those things like how, of course, Jesus heals, you know, a blind man or makes a deaf man here. But like, that's not what I'm looking for completely. I'm looking for, tell me about how, how we serve all
00:27:21
Speaker
people and how we meet them where they are and that God loves them as they are and created them as they are. And there's a beauty of having everyone as a part of our community. I don't know if that resonates with your experience as well. The secular resources are sometimes easier to find than the ones within our faith.
00:27:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, really that is an area that's very close to my heart because, uh, you know, one of the things that I tell people is that when I realized my son had a problem with an addiction, I knew two things instinctively. And I don't know how I knew these, but you know, I knew that his addiction was a spiritual problem. I just knew it into my bones. And that was confirmed later on, you know, in some of the research I did.
00:28:08
Speaker
But the second thing that I knew was that I could not take this problem to my parish. I knew I couldn't go there. I reached out to my parish priest and he was wonderful, but it was a secret that we held between each other. So the burden was still there. I can't tell you how many people that I talked to that feel that same weight of, but if my child had cancer, I would go to my parish and they would, they'd be praying for me. Maybe,
00:28:38
Speaker
you know, bringing us dinner if we needed it. But the people that suffer with something that's, you know, not common, that's not a mental health issue, you know, they're supported. And I think that part of it is that we have this illusion that we see the people in the pews and we think their lives must be perfect. You know, I think it's just going to take time to where we start sharing a little bit more of ourselves
00:29:07
Speaker
If we can work to understand what addiction is, we can understand a way that we can help others. I mean, it can be as simple as just praying for them or accompanying them. You don't have to do anything to fix anybody. And we learn that in recovery right off the bat, but just stand shoulder to shoulder and pray with them. That's an easy way to start. And to learn about the disease, you know,
00:29:36
Speaker
There's a lot of mystery. There's a lot of poorly informed ideas around addiction. Yeah. All the things that are invisible to us, there seems to be poorly formed ideas around in terms of, like you said, if someone's sitting in the pews and looks like they have no problems in the world and everything, but there's so much going on inside of them and the things that
00:30:05
Speaker
that we just need to talk about more in order to make people feel like they can tell their stories, that they cannot feel ashamed by bringing things up. In a church setting where it's not a meeting where everybody has the same thing they're bringing up, but it's just a meeting of people, right? Or a Bible study where you can share the things that are going on in your life and feel like that would be okay, right?
00:30:32
Speaker
I even think that the churches that allow the AA and Al-Anon meetings to meet in their building, just seeing that they're just average people showing up at these meetings, I think that's good for the parish as much as anything. So yeah, it's just getting closer, just getting closer and not being afraid of the problem.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, distance definitely breeds fear and all sorts of things. What you don't see and what you don't know personally, you have this tendency to be either afraid of it or uncertain about it. And so yeah, the more conversations that we can have in the context of faith, the better. You said earlier, your image of God changed and you had to heal your image of God. Do you feel like often
00:31:24
Speaker
It's not just the people around us that we're afraid to bring up what's going on, but also afraid that that's something that God doesn't like or that, you know, we have to repent for whatever it is, you know, and that we feel like God is judging us just as much as people around us.
Jean's Book and Writing Process
00:31:44
Speaker
Right. Right. So I mean, that's why it's so important for families to get into recovery because, um,
00:31:52
Speaker
You know, one of the things that I noticed is that, you know, my son didn't start getting better until I got better. When I finally got out of his business and I let his journey with God be his journey with God, and I started working on mine, he started getting better. And that's kind of the miracle of the program is that when you can start trusting your loved one to God, all kinds of good things can happen.
00:32:22
Speaker
you know, but you have to let go. Yeah. And, uh, I know I find as a mom, not only do my kids show me exactly my worst qualities all the time, but it is true that when I'm not working on those myself, then I'm not helpful to them, but also when they witness me trying to be better in those areas.
00:32:45
Speaker
I think that example is often even more impactful to them than if I'm telling them the right way to be, right? Because we have to show by our example. Yeah, it's what they tell writers, show, don't tell, you know? And Ignatius even said, you know, he who wants to change the world must start with himself or he loses his labor. So I try to hang on to that quote.
00:33:13
Speaker
How did writing this book help you come to know yourself better? Was that part of the deal? It was a big part of the deal. It was a lot of introspection. I had a lot of really good guidance because the acquisitions editor at Loyola
00:33:32
Speaker
His name is Joe Durepost, and he told me he didn't want a memoir. And so I was offended at first. But he was right. Joe is very blunt. It's good. He was very blunt. And he said, you know, you need to write a book that will help people because, you know, a lot of people go through a lot of hard things and they need to write it down for themselves, but it doesn't need to be for public consumption. So if that's what you need to do, that's for you. But if you want to write a book that will help somebody,
00:34:02
Speaker
then that's another thing altogether. And he was right. The book helped me not to tell anybody's story but mine, which made me focus on the work I needed to do. And that was really helpful to me, you know, because I'm the only person I can change. Yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
How are the chapters set up? Because I assume since you didn't write a memoir, you didn't just tell your story. Practical ways, I guess, for people to engage with Ignatian spirituality and each of the steps. So there are 12 chapters for the 12 steps. And in each chapter, it's very story driven.
00:34:46
Speaker
So each chapter I tell stories because I, the goal, my dream with this book, I thought about the mom, like myself, who was upstairs in her bonus room, ruminating in the middle of the night because she couldn't sleep because she was worried. And I wanted a book for her. And I wanted to just take her along because she might be afraid to go to a 12 step meeting. She might be afraid to reach out to a spiritual director or a priest. And I took her along. We went to 12 step meetings and
00:35:16
Speaker
We went to the dark side of things sometimes and we went to counseling together. And I just told stories of what it had been like and what I learned and what each step tries to get us to address and heal. And then I talked about the principles of Ignatian spirituality that went alongside each of those 12 steps. So that's, that's how the book is formatted.
00:35:41
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad that you talked about, you know, the mom that you took along with you, because in all my research on the book, I never wrote the thing that you're always supposed to do is take is, you know, who's your person that you are writing for, and almost personify this idea of who you're writing for and take them on the journey, because you're not
Authenticity and Relationships
00:36:05
Speaker
really writing for yourself, you're writing for somebody else for them to take it. And I appreciate you writing for other moms that...
00:36:14
Speaker
or going through the same things or similar things that you're going through, because I think being a mom can be some of the loneliest times, the loneliest years, especially when your kids just aren't like everybody else, you know, are not doing the same things that everybody else is doing at the same time. And, you know, you see,
00:36:37
Speaker
20 people, you know, going along this journey that seems the way it's supposed to be. And then your journey is like taking a whole nother road. And it's hard to understand that and to not think that you are alone in that process. So you're really giving people the opportunity to know that they're not the only ones experiencing this. Right. Right. Yes. But I mean, there's, there's a beauty in being on your own path, you know, that I can see now that I couldn't see then.
00:37:07
Speaker
And I'm not saying, you know, I would wish an addiction on anyone or any hardship, but there is beauty in some of those hard places that really help create in you a more authentic person and a more authentic relationship with God that is just so valuable. And if you can just hang on, you know, when you're alone, I think it pays off in the end.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yeah, and authenticity is such an important thing in order to kind of work on
00:37:41
Speaker
these things that keep us from good relationships with one another, right? It's this showing up, letting that shadow self be hidden and showing up as you think other people want you to be. When really the person you're talking to probably just is having just as hard a time in some areas you are and just wishes you would bring it up and just let them see your best so that they could feel that connection with you, so. Right, right. Every time I've been approached by somebody,
00:38:11
Speaker
And for whatever reason, I'll get a feeling that maybe I should share my story. There's never been one time when I got that feeling that they didn't need to hear it.
00:38:27
Speaker
when you share yourself with somebody else that's struggling, and connection occurs, and that's when healing occurs. Well, and it's great that by putting these ideas down in a book, you don't know how many people are connecting with you now, but hopefully the people that need to read your book are finding it. Really, we all could benefit from reading and going through a process that this book goes through, but that gives you just such a wider breadth of people to
00:38:56
Speaker
Hopefully find, find what they need on the pages of your book. Right. Right. Well, that's the goal. The big dream, the big dream is to kind of chip away at that stigma. So yeah. No. And I think, I think, I think people are doing that, right? But it takes just more people.
00:39:14
Speaker
being brave enough to put their stories out there. So how do you keep internalizing or how do you help yourself internalize this idea that you're loved as you are? Are there any things, you know, regular practices and things that kind of help you keep yourself grounded in that truth? You know, I sponsor people a lot. I'm sponsoring a young lady right now and
00:39:36
Speaker
met with her to sponsor several people, but this one young lady just, it was just a reminder to me to see, you know, how I was in the beginning. You know, we all started out so kind of battered by life just to see somebody grasp onto hope. I mean, that, that's just the most wonderful gift you'll ever get. Ignatian spirituality kind of ends up with the being men and women for others. And the 12th step is, you know,
00:40:06
Speaker
having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we practice these principles in all our affairs. And so if they're both about, you know, it doesn't end, you don't get what you need in stock. Uh, you were given a hand up and you offer that forward now and it keeps you in the loop of that, you know, eternal exchange of love that we talk about.
Emotional Health and Societal Challenges
00:40:34
Speaker
So,
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, every time that you listen to someone else's story, I think it probably helps you know yourself and your own story that much better. Yeah. Yeah. You can see yourself a lot of times in people, you know, and think, oh, thank goodness, you know, not in this spot anymore. You know, I'm glad I had to face this problem. So.
00:40:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that reminds me of how Ignatius always said that there are times of consolation, you know, when you're in a good relationship with one another and you're joyful and you feel connected and everything is working out. And in times of desolation where you feel distant from people and things are disconnected, things aren't going well.
00:41:16
Speaker
you feel distant from God. And that in times of desolation is not when you should make a plan or big changes, but in times of consolation, that's when you kind of set yourself up for the next period of desolation. And it seems like through the work that you've done, you both recognize that there will be other desolate times in different ways ahead, because that's just part of being human. But you've set a plan for yourself and your family for what to do in those cases.
00:41:47
Speaker
That is one of the things that my three adult children now, my son's been in recovery eight years. One of the things that I learned about all three of my adult children is that they all see a counselor.
00:42:03
Speaker
I've never been so proud in all my life because they're, they're choosing a healthy way to get help. And I always tell people, you know, I see the dentist and I see the ophthalmologist and I see an endocrinologist and you know, I have all this variety of doctors. Why wouldn't I see somebody about my emotional health too? I mean, that makes no sense that we, we think there's something wrong with, with doing that. And so I'm really proud of that they were doing that.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I think sometimes in the church, it would be, you know, growing up, it would be like, well, if you have an issue that's an emotional one, then you go to the church, right? You get help in that regard. So I think it's also important to note that there's a both and situation where there are things that a spiritual director and church and prayer and interaction can do. And then there are these people that God gifted with
00:42:58
Speaker
the talent to become mental health professionals. And God is a part of that too, but they have the skills and talents to be able to do the other part of it. And it doesn't have to be an either or, but a both and situation. Right. Now I have a spiritual director and a counselor and I go to retreats and I work a 12 step program and the ands keep going because why not take advantage of everything we possibly can?
00:43:22
Speaker
The more that we reflect on ourselves, the more different expert opinions that you have, the more of a kind of fully formed human being we can become. The better you are for your family. Yes, and yourself.
00:43:36
Speaker
So one of the questions I ask all of my guests, and maybe we've touched on it, but is there anything that you think makes it challenging for people, particularly right now in 2023, to understand their belovedness, to be able to ask for help when they need it? I mean, you've said already that the stigma of
00:43:57
Speaker
alcoholism and addiction and drug addiction and all sorts of addictions. But is there anything else that kind of contributes to that challenge? Yeah, I mean, I do. Let me just start by saying I have this little, I have this theory about what addiction is, and it's based on what the 12 Steps in Ignatian Spirituality do. And I always say that addiction is dis-ease, you know, dis-ease, disorder and disconnection in our relationships to God, self and others.
00:44:27
Speaker
And so this generation of young people, you know, who date online and who text each other in the same room, you know, who aren't as connected kinesthetic way, like I was growing up playing on the playground, you know, without a device in my hand, I think that the lack of connection is going to put up an extra obstacle for them to being loved as they are.
00:44:53
Speaker
because the 12 steps restore order between God and restore order even within and restore ease, which I am loved. I'm enough as I am. Those two things allow connection. You know, it's kind of the end result of those first two things. So yeah, I think the lack of connection is going to be a big obstacle. Yeah.
00:45:16
Speaker
I like that idea of restoring ease because I think that is a lot of things that stand in the way between connections with other people is this trepidation that they may not, I may say something wrong or they may not like the way I look or the way I act or the way I talk.
00:45:35
Speaker
And I think it's really easy for us. Before devices and in social media as well as with, I think, you know, I had those issues when I was a child. I see them now. It's just that they're electronic now, but that idea that I don't know if other people like me as I am. So how can I like myself as I am? So yeah. And I think it comes from that being the message that we offer.
00:45:56
Speaker
young people, but we also offer ourselves that the God that I believe in and I think you believe in is one that always is looking at us and smiling and seeing nothing but pride and joy for the person that they created just as we are. And that doesn't mean that we don't have to then do something good with that, but the love isn't predicated on whether or not we succeed in doing something good with that. Right. It's not transactional.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, which I do remember feeling that way as a kid, like there was a mark.
00:46:32
Speaker
marking pad that God had every time that I messed up and then confession wipes away all the marks and then you go and make some more marks. And it definitely felt like that idea that, oh, like I'm going to have a mark on me like two seconds out of one. So that, that feeling didn't really predicate the love design. Right. I think that God hates it when we fall short because he knows it hurts us. So that switched as I
00:47:02
Speaker
had a healthier image of God, it became less about punishing and more about, oh, he loves me that much that he knows it's going to hurt me. And he doesn't like that. Yeah. And in my imagining, God's right there with us. So the hurts that we experience, it's not just, it's such an empathetic response that God feels it too. And that is what God wants to avoid with us, right? That pain, that
00:47:29
Speaker
is so tangible that God experiences it right alongside of us.
00:47:34
Speaker
Well, Jean, this has been a wonderful conversation and I think we've talked about your book so much, people have to know that you can get it on Amazon and on your website and it's through Loyola Press as well. But I think it's such a credible resource. This is something that more people need to talk about and you really are blazing that trail, which is so important. So thank you for doing that and thank you for being vulnerable enough to share your experience.
00:48:03
Speaker
with others. Thanks for having me and giving me the opportunity. Yeah.
Conclusion and Future Content
00:48:07
Speaker
Well, I'm sure this will not be the last conversation we'll have about writing or being loved as you are. All wonderful things you do. Because Jean and I also both write for Into the Deep and we interact with Ignatian Ministries. So we both have that connection as well. So you can find us there. So thank you again, Jean. And I look forward to the next time we talk about being loved as you are. Thanks.
00:49:03
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jean as much as I did. I especially love talking with her about the importance of being able to connect conversations of mental health, addiction, suicide, and more with faith, especially to help people know that they are not alone.
00:49:19
Speaker
and so very deeply loved. Do you think you or someone you know has a story about being loved as you are that would fit with this podcast? Please reach out to me and let me know by emailing me at lovedasurpod at gmail.com. You can find out more about Jean by checking her website linked in the show notes. I have another exciting guest coming your way very soon, but for now, remember to be who you are because that is exactly who God wants you to be.