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18. Nourishing Work with Heidi Williams
14 Plays1 year ago
Nutrition means listening to your body—really listening.
Heidi Williams believes all foods fit into your diet, and she would know. As a Registered Dietitian, Sports Dietitian, and NSCA Certified Personal Trainer, she’s passionate about transforming our relationship with food and our bodies.
“Weight loss isn’t the answer to happiness. There’s so much more to life.” Unfortunately, women entrepreneurs often feel surrounded by diet culture and body shaming. Managing a business is hard enough without constantly counting calories, cutting out comfort foods, or running on the hamster wheel (err, treadmill).
Whether you’re dealing with fatigue, stress, or simply forgetting to eat between meetings, prioritizing nutrition can fill your days with more energy, focus, and joy. And who doesn’t want to fill up on joy?!
In this episode, Heidi shifts our collective perspective around weight, nutrition, and fitness. She reveals how nutrition (and movement) can actually make you a better business owner. Plus, she explains why nine out of ten times, women aren’t eating ENOUGH food. “You don’t need to ‘love’ your body, but maybe don’t hate it so much.” Amen to that.
From mindset to practical tips, this episode gives you a lot to digest.
For more inspiration, subscribe to Unbound Turnarounds on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts!
LINKS:
- Connect with Nicole
- Connect with Mallory
- Connect with Heidi: www.realnutritionandfitness.com/
- Intuitive Eating Book: www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Eating-4th-Anti-Diet-Revolutionary/dp/1250255198
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Transcript
Introduction & Mission
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Unbound Turnarounds, a podcast all about the challenges women business owners think about constantly, but rarely voice. We're Nicole and Mallory, entrepreneurs, friends, and co-founders of Business Unbound, a community helping women alleviate the headaches, heartaches, and backaches so work actually works for life. This is your safe space for the ups, downs, and the turnarounds.
Season 2 Focus: Well-being
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome back to Unbound Turnarounds. And to remind listeners, season two is all about well-being. So today, we're going to be talking about nutrition with someone who knows a lot more about this topic than
Guest Introduction: Heidi Williams
00:00:43
Speaker
we do. Mallory, who do we have? Yes, more than we do. So we have an actual expert with you. You don't have to learn about nutrition from Nicole and I. How lovely. No, thank goodness. Well, our guest today is Heidi Williams. Heidi has been a registered sports dietician since 2010.
00:00:59
Speaker
She's also a certified personal trainer, a USATF running coach, and a certified pre and postnatal coach. She started her business Real Nutrition and Fitness LLC in 2013, which focuses on sports nutrition, eating disorders, and intuitive eating.
Heidi's Life & Running
00:01:16
Speaker
She also coaches and trains for ultra runners and she's an ultra runner herself. One of those wild, crazy people who's out there running forever since 2012. Heidi currently resides in St. Louis, Missouri with her husband and adorable three little daughters. And when she's not working or spending time with her family, you will find her, you guessed it, out running the trails. So Heidi, thank you for being here and welcome to the show.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to be invited. Yeah, awesome.
Discussion on Disordered Eating
00:01:47
Speaker
So for all of our listeners as a warning, if some discussion about disordered eating is triggering for you, this is your trigger warning. You may want to just skip this interview and then you can catch us next week. So make sure to take good care of yourself.
00:02:02
Speaker
All right, with that out of the way, let's dive into our interview. So Heidi, before we get into the nutritional insights for entrepreneurs, let's talk about your business because you yourself are an entrepreneur. So I'm curious what role nutrition played in your life growing up, and then we can talk about how that kind of led you into this career.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah, so nutrition actually was nothing that was really talked about in my childhood. I was grateful to be raised by a mom who never really made comments about
00:02:35
Speaker
nutrition or body or anything like that. And I consider myself extremely lucky because I know that not everyone can say that. Of course, I'm from the Midwest and we focus on a lot of meat, potatoes, veggies, things like that. But there wasn't really much discussion about it in my household, to be honest.
00:02:59
Speaker
So it wasn't anything I really thought about probably until I went to high school and was surrounded by other people and maybe even their beliefs around nutrition that kind of impacted me in that way.
Diet Culture Impact in Youth
00:03:13
Speaker
But yeah, nutrition was I honestly never thought about food ever.
00:03:17
Speaker
I just like ate whatever I wanted and I was an athlete growing up and I just I never thought about it. And like I said, not all people can say the same. Like I have many friends who were raised by moms who were constantly dieting their entire childhood. So what they know from their childhood is completely different than what I ever experienced.
00:03:39
Speaker
So, yeah. Yeah, I feel really, really seen by that. I was actually last week discussing with my sister and just saying we are so lucky that we did not grow up in a house where body image was the topic. Like we did not have that kind of influence as young kids and because there wasn't social media, like it just wasn't a factor.
00:03:59
Speaker
Right? Like you ate what was for dinner, whatever that was, in whatever portion it was served to you by your mom. And that was the end of it. It wasn't really a conversation. I think at least for me until kind of I got to college. So I'm curious if when you got to college, did that also change? And what were you kind of seeing and observing about women in that space and their relationship with food and fitness?
00:04:23
Speaker
Probably until, I mean, I basically ate whatever I want, never thought about it through high school. I ran track and cuss country, was always active, never really thought about it. But I was surrounded by a lot of diets, a lot of diets, like some of the most
00:04:41
Speaker
extreme things. And I think like, okay, this is where girls and women are the most impressionable of wanting to lose weight and change their body. But I mean, I think we forget people are meant to gain weight through
00:04:56
Speaker
20, 22 years old, and there's no discussion on that. It's basically you leave eighth grade and you go off to high school and you've gone to puberty, your body's going to change. Like you are growing into an adult body. And then we are told like, no, you're not supposed to look this way. You are supposed to lose weight. You need to manipulate it in some sort of way. So I guess I would call myself a healthy eater, whatever that means, because we'll get into that a little bit of what my definition of health really is.
00:05:26
Speaker
is. But I ate like, I mean, I still remember I was in high school, I'm like, I would get an ice cream sandwich every day, like that was what I wanted. It sounded good. I never thought about it. And I continue to reside in a straight size, thin body. So I've never had to think about that through high school.
00:05:43
Speaker
So it's very different, whereas I never felt like I struggle with body image then because it was never an issue. So it wasn't until I went to college where I saw it even more and like I actually had friends who had like very active eating disorders, I became more aware of. And I think that's when I did start to look at my body and I'm like, oh, I don't know if I like how I look. And I did gain weight in college.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I wasn't really wild about that. And once again, I wasn't educated. I was 18 years old. I'm 41 now. I know significantly more that we are supposed to gain weight. But, you know, I went to this school in Missouri, Mizzou, and they used to say like, oh, you gain the Mizzou 22. Like you gain all this weight. They call it the freshman 15. And, you know, we think, oh, we're doing something wrong. It's like, oh, because everybody's drinking and eating.
00:06:41
Speaker
You know, different food and you're not as active. It's like, no, we're still supposed to be growing into those adult bodies.
Heidi's Dietetics Motivation
00:06:49
Speaker
And nobody talks about that. And yes, once again, more more women than men. But, you know, it can affect anyone or become more obsessed that they have to change their body. So that's when I think I started.
00:07:02
Speaker
being more interested in nutrition. And, you know, but I came at nutrition at a very different lens than I have now. And I looked at it from like a weight loss standpoint. I'm like, oh, I am going in to be a dietician because I want to help people lose weight. I mean, this was in the early 2000s. I thought that was the big deal of like, oh, we need to lose weight to be healthy. Like that is the epitome of health. And that's what drew me into dietetics.
00:07:32
Speaker
So that's kind of where nutrition, I guess, came in of feeling like, oh, I don't want to see people struggle with their weight. I want to help them. As if the answer is everyone should lose. Yes, yes. I mean, you know, it doesn't make any sense when we say it. No, I was an idiot. Well, I think we collectively are. I think we all were in the late 90s, early 2000s. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you say it, of course we shouldn't weigh what we did in second grade, you know. So why are we doing this?
00:07:59
Speaker
I know, I know. Do you feel like that maybe led you kind of those experiences and seeing that around you led you to want to become a registered sports dietician? Because that's where you're going for initially, right? Did you have a vision then what you wanted to do long term if you wanted to help people lose weight? Were you envisioning even entrepreneurship at that early stage or no?
00:08:21
Speaker
Oh, not at all. Not at all. Not at all. I wanted to help people lose weight, I guess, because that's what I thought I was supposed to do. I don't know. And that goes into like dietetics actually is like a there's a very fat phobic surrounding around the program. I mean, it has not changed much and nutrition has evolved significantly in the last 20 years. And, you know, there seems to be a disconnect.
00:08:45
Speaker
with the program. But I did have a very good friend of mine in high school who had a very serious eating disorder. And I remember sitting there. It was a basketball game and she was on the team. She was on varsity basketball and they were doing like, oh, it was like a dance or something. And she was up there dancing like dresses Britney Spears. And I remember the outfit was falling off of her. She was very thin.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I remember listening to these girls next to me talking to each other like, oh, my God, Emily looks awesome. And all I could think was this girl is very sick. Like she is very, very sick. And we are praising her for that. And it just kind of was like in the back of my mind, though, too, when I was thinking about nutrition, like there was still some effect that I wanted to work with eating disorders. And I didn't realize, like,
00:09:36
Speaker
that weight loss and eating disorders are like two very different things and they can't really coexist together. But once again, I'm 18, 19 years old. And I was like, I want to cure eating disorders. I wanted to play a part. I really saw my friend struggling so much and these people praising her. And I thought there is something wrong in this world and I want to do something about it. And I didn't know what how that was going to be. That was before
00:10:01
Speaker
I went away to college and kind of got more into nutrition. It was just something I thought about, but I never really thought I'd put it into practice and actually make it a career.
Intuitive Eating & Philosophy
00:10:11
Speaker
Well, and I'm curious, so it seems like a lot of how we grew up, even though some parts were better, you know, no social media, things like that. But some of it was just very black and white, right? Like weight loss was a default. That should be what we do. Weight loss is dieting. Those things seemed very black and white. And I'm curious if that extended in your experience to the role that fitness plays
00:10:35
Speaker
Was it just seen as a thing that helps you lose weight? Was it positioned as something that was good for your body in other ways? Well, no, not as a kid. Like it was just about being active, you know, making feeling good. But I think it turned into most of the, I guess the clients that came to me as a trainer, like it was weight loss. Like, oh, I want to lose weight.
00:10:57
Speaker
I think that's all people ever thought. And I hardly have any clients that want to lose weight. I've got a whole different group of clients that I work with now. But yeah, I would say maybe that was part of it. I think I became a dietician and then I wanted to be a trainer too because I knew once again, I liked working with athletes and helping individuals, but I knew like so many trainers
00:11:24
Speaker
No shade to trainers, but like don't have a ton of nutrition knowledge. And we're giving a lot of very bad advice. And I thought, well, I want to do something different where it's like, I know that I have the background and I can work with these clients and talk about like how to feel appropriately and what you should be eating and including in your diet for whatever your goals are.
00:11:46
Speaker
Well, and you did have a more well-rounded fitness background, right? Like you taught group fitness and spin and yoga and that was a direction that you went. Was that because you just purely enjoyed those things or was it also because you thought I want to be giving more of this well-rounded advice around nutrition and there is a role that fitness should play in a healthy way?
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, so the group fitness came first. I started teaching that in like 2008. I went to classes and I really liked it. And then I got certified. And then I started teaching and I I liked it. And I was really good at it and that I am a great motivator. And I I just like doing it. And I like seeing people succeed in that way, push themselves. Once again, it started out different. Like my mentality was like the boot camp style.
00:12:37
Speaker
you know, where it was like push ourselves to extreme, no rest, somebody's taking a rest. It's like, okay, now everybody's got to do 50 burpees because Katie took a rest. And it's like, I would never do that now. I mean, I never really did that. We're sorry, Katie. We're sorry. You know, but like that was the early 2000s, same thing, the weight loss, the boot camp, militant style. And I honestly thought I was helping people in that way. You know, I was like, oh yeah, like this is it. And I think that's what people thought they wanted.
00:13:07
Speaker
I think that's what we thought fitness was supposed to be. Killing yourself, burn calories, all these things. And it's like, now I'm like, once again, I'm a lot more mature and have learned a lot. I'm like, oh my God, old Heidi, I can't see under her. Well, you only.
00:13:27
Speaker
You only know what you can know at the time. Yes, yes. You would have to give yourself grace and go back and go, I'm going into the next best version of myself. I'm learning. I'm growing continually. Right. Because that would be horrible if you were the same as you were when you were 18. Yeah. But it was like that's what people wanted. And that's what people thought that they wanted until there started to be more talk of like, oh, no, it doesn't have to be like that.
00:13:53
Speaker
And I think you're right. I think that's why people showed up, right? That's what they thought they needed to lose weight with someone to scream at them and not take any breaks. And, you know, it wasn't something where you were like, or just do a little yoga at home. Like that was not the message, right? It was come to the gym, burn calories, and we're going to do it together and it's going to be loud. Yeah, exactly.
00:14:17
Speaker
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00:14:37
Speaker
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Entrepreneurial Journey
00:15:04
Speaker
on your journey.
00:15:07
Speaker
Well, let's get into the entrepreneur piece. So then looking back after school, when did this idea of having your own company come into your head? Like when did it start to take hold? And what was the force behind that happening? Yeah, so it just kind of happened. So I actually went to school. So when I was at Mizzou, I
00:15:25
Speaker
ended up getting my degree in exercise physiology. I didn't go the nutrition route. I ended up doing that thinking that's what I wanted to do. Well, there was a degree that was like exercise physiology and nutrition. And I thought, oh, I could do both of these things. But there was a dietetics program there, but it was very, very hard to get into. And I was not even thinking about my career at 20 years old and, you know, applied and I didn't get accepted. And I thought, okay, well, I guess I'll do something else.
00:15:55
Speaker
So, I ended up getting a degree in exercise physiology and I graduated in 2005, didn't really do much. My parents owned their own business. So, I think that's where the entrepreneurial stuff came from. So, they had their own business that they opened in 1999, a motorcycle dealership. And my mom was a CPA and I worked in the office with her just doing that type of stuff.
00:16:20
Speaker
So I did that and then I traveled. Like after I graduated, I traveled in Central America with a friend of mine, Andrea, who Mallory knows. And we did some volunteer work and I ended up getting involved with nutrition stuff there. And I was like, this is what I like. Like I really like
00:16:38
Speaker
doing this and I need to figure out how to make it work. And I, you know, maybe I need to go back to be a dietician and like put in the work and get into the program. So I came back and I applied to a program here in St. Louis at a place called Thompon University, like literally a mile from my house. And that was in 2006. So I did that program part time from 2006 to 2008.
00:17:01
Speaker
And then after you do the program, you have to do an internship for, I don't know, twelve hundred hours or something. And then I did that out in Seattle, Washington from 2008 to 2009. And then I came back, traveled more like I wasn't really focused on figuring out what I wanted to do. And I've gone to grad school because they were telling us all dieticians are going to need a master's by 2014. Well, that never happened. It's 2024.
00:17:31
Speaker
But it was like a good way for me to say, okay, I got to just figure out what I want to do. So I ended up going back to Mizzou for grad school to get my degree in public health because I want to help people. That is always been something I wanted to do. Like I want to help people. And right away, I met this dietician, Cindy Foley. She became my mentor and she introduced me to the book Intuitive Eating. And that's where I really shifted how I wanted to educate my clients. Like this was how I had passed the RD exam.
00:18:01
Speaker
And then I go to school like five days later or something. So I like never worked as a dietician. I got hired working at the rec center as the dietician. And then I got a graduate assistantship. But Cindy was like my boss mentor. So she kind of helped guide me through counseling clients. So that was like my first real job I had as a dietician. And, you know, she really helped build the person that I am in the terms of, you know, nutrition. And I'm so grateful for her for that.
00:18:30
Speaker
So it seems like the book Intuitive Eating was a pretty pivotal shift for you in your philosophy around nutrition and probably also a little bit of fitness. How do you feel like that shifted your way of thinking and why do you think it resonated so much at that time?
00:18:50
Speaker
I do not know. I honestly don't know. I think because, as I said, in the dietetics program, it's just we would do like counseling with each other and like practice counseling, mock counseling. Somebody comes in with this and then our goal is like, okay, how do you get them to lose weight? That's literally all I knew. And that's all I thought that it was. And then I'm open to something else. I'm like, oh,
00:19:12
Speaker
Wait, this nutrition can be something else. It means listening to your body and kind of paying attention, not tracking things and being on a diet. That sounds really cool. And your body's just going to do whatever it wants by following these. That's like slowing down and listening to it. And I'm like, I think I liked it for whatever reason.
00:19:34
Speaker
I don't know. This was in 2010 and 2011, which was still very culturally, I guess, but that was more of the transition to the wellness era too. So I honestly don't know, but I just trusted Cindy. That was like, oh yeah, this book is great. And I think I was introduced to it during my internship. I did an eating disorder little track and
00:20:00
Speaker
I was introduced to the book then and, but I didn't really think like, Oh, I thought that was like, I didn't know. I don't know until like I saw it again. I'm like, Oh yeah, like this is just how Cindy did her counseling. And I'm like, I really like this. I really liked that I'm able to calculate everything out and do this. And I think that's kind of what it was. Not that I was like lazy, but I just thought this is just so weird.
00:20:19
Speaker
Why am I telling everybody like you need this many calories and this many grams of this? And of course there is a time and a place for that type of stuff. I'm not saying it's not like I just saw a power lifting athlete and we had to talk about these things. So of course like it is necessary, but not for everybody.
00:20:39
Speaker
And it's not the end goal, right? This seems like a way of counseling people that was more about you're allowed to feel however you feel. It's not about what size pants you're wearing, right? Let's have a discussion about the way that your body image or your weight
00:20:59
Speaker
is affecting your perceptions of the world and yourself and not have shame around that. And that seems like a pretty appealing thing. And if it took a few times hearing about it, well, welcome to the rest of us that need to hear things quite a few times. Exactly.
00:21:15
Speaker
I think we're ready to dive into some of your philosophies and some of this nutritional insight. So can you give us some insight into what your philosophy about nutrition and fitness really is and how that plays a role in what you do in your business?
00:21:32
Speaker
Yeah, so as I said, I take more of an intuitive eating approach and I'm sure not everyone is familiar with that. And intuitive eating is kind of a buzzword out there, but a lot of people are using it as a diet and it's not a diet. It's basically slow down, listen to your body, pay attention to what your body really needs. Use descriptive words to try to figure out what do I want? Do I want something crunchy, smooth, salty, sweet? Make sure that we're choosing
00:22:01
Speaker
foods that are going to sound good and satisfy us instead of, you know, ignoring that and feeling like, oh, well, my fitness pal told me I only have this many calories, so I'm just going to choose this type of thing. So basically intuitive eating, you know, listening to our body. But then I really believe all foods fit into our diet.
00:22:21
Speaker
you could eat whatever you want. I would never tell anyone that anything is off limits. And I think many people are scared to see a dietician because they think, you're going to yell at me and say like, oh, everything I'm doing is wrong. And I'm thinking like, I want this to be a safe space for you where you can talk about what's going on. And if you're telling me like, Heidi, I just love
00:22:42
Speaker
Mountain Dew and one of my favorite things, I'd be like, cool, we'll figure out how to make it work. Like I would never tell anyone that they couldn't have something unless they were like allergic to it or some other thing. Like, you know, if they have celiac and they love bread, it's like, well, we just have to remove that from your diet and find some free options and stuff like that. So it's basically all food fits. I don't shame any of my clients.
00:23:08
Speaker
Ever shame does not work back from 2008, like shaming people into working out like I would never ever do that to my clients. I see it all the time working in a gym and what trainers say like this one older lady like was so proud that she was drinking electrolytes and the trainers like don't drink that. That's so much sugar. And I'm like, she's happy she's getting some fluids and like getting this stuff and you're like, she's at the gym.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yes. I'm like nutrition is not black and white. There is so much gray area. And I always tell people if someone is telling you this is the exact way to do things, then they're not right. Nutrition will look different for every single person. And I think we have to remember like it is purely individualized.
00:24:00
Speaker
And do you find that when clients come to you now, that kind of changing that mindset and that perception that they have of what you do and why they're even there, is that kind of an early discussion to just say, you know what, you may have heard these types of things, but here's what I believe and you're allowed to listen to your body. Like, do you find yourself having to give women especially permission to think about this differently?
00:24:27
Speaker
Oh, 100 percent. But one thing, like I was saying, you know, back when I said, oh, I want to work with eating disorders and weight loss. And there's like this talk of well, dieticians who work with eating disorders are not allowed to work with people who want weight loss. If someone contacts me and they say they want to lose weight, I bring them into my office and I talk about what's going on. And I've talked about this with my supervisor extensively. As we said, people only think that that's what they're supposed to be doing until someone opens up their mind and says,
00:24:56
Speaker
Hey, what if we don't focus on losing weight? What if we focus on feeling better, being able to pick up your grandkids, getting in and out of your car, getting better sleep, doing those things? That is the most eye-opening thing for people. They're like, oh, I never thought I didn't have to actively be trying to lose weight.
00:25:16
Speaker
But, you know, I will work with people. You know, we always say meet them where they're at. If someone is coming into me, I'm not going to try to shift their belief and that you have to do what I say in my philosophy. People will come in and say, I don't even know how to eat because there's so much information just bombarded everywhere. Social media and the Internet out in public at your workspace. And it's like you can't sift through what is real and what isn't. So oftentimes people are like,
00:25:44
Speaker
in their 30s and 40s coming to see me. Like, I don't even know how to eat. Like, what do I do? Yes. Well, and I think giving people the permission to say you're allowed to feel however you're feeling about it, there's likely been a lot of societal factors influencing how you feel about it. And there's a different way to look at it and you will guide them if they're interested in that. Because I think as an entrepreneur, what we see is that there is a lot of things that we carry around throughout the day.
Coaching Approach
00:26:14
Speaker
And why do we also want to carry around feeling bad about the Mountain Dew you had this morning? You know, do we need to carry that too? Could we maybe reframe that? Could we just have a better, more holistic view of our diet and what we're putting in our bodies? That helps everyone.
00:26:32
Speaker
So if somebody was listening to this and was thinking that like, I don't know how to eat or Heidi sounds amazing. Maybe I need to talk to somebody. Talk to us about the type of coaching that you do. And we can get in later of how people can get in touch with you specifically, but what kind of
00:26:48
Speaker
services are out there for people. And what kind of coaching do you specifically do? Because I know you work with disordered eating clients, pre and postnatal nutrition you set in your bio, and sports nutrition counseling. So what's out there as services for people? And then why did you choose to focus on those areas?
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah. I was actually thinking about this when you were asking why I decided to be an entrepreneur. Back to after I graduated school and I couldn't find a job. That was basically where it was and it fell into me. People were like, oh, I'm looking for nutrition. But once again, that was the weight loss thing. I started it, but it never panned out. Well, then I got involved working at an eating disorder facility.
00:27:29
Speaker
And it was there where like I'd be telling my clients like, okay, you need to go to the grocery store. And then they'll come back to the session like, well, I didn't do it. I have too much anxiety. And I'm like, would you have anybody to go with you? And they'd be like, no. And I'm thinking that's what I need to do. I need to fricking go to the grocery store with my clients. I need to go to the restaurant with my clients. That was something that nobody else was doing.
00:27:50
Speaker
And I thought, this is what I'm going to do. Like, I need to have that available. So that's a kind of open the door into the counseling. So that's what I first started with was eating disorders because I got referrals from the place that I had worked at. But then I also worked. There was a track of athletes with eating disorders and I got involved there and became a sports dietician.
00:28:10
Speaker
And oftentimes there were many athletes that would come in who just were not feeling their body appropriately, would get caught up in body image distress because of maybe things that their coach was saying or just the pressure if they were in a more aesthetic sport like gymnastics or ice skating. So someone could come to me and just say like, I'm in recovery from any disorder or I want to learn how to eat intuitively. How would we go about that? So they'd reach out to me and we'd set up an initial session.
00:28:39
Speaker
And I would just learn about them and really know their history and find out what's been going on, what works for them, have they been on any diets, like all types of things. And I don't do packages for my clients. Many dieticians do that. And I'm not saying that that's right or wrong. But as I go back to everyone is so different.
00:28:59
Speaker
I have no idea how often I'm going to need to see this person and how their progress is going to be. So I certainly wouldn't be like, Oh, in three months, we should be done. I mean, I've got clients I've been working with for 10 years. So no, you're not going to be done in three months. And maybe that's just where they are. And those clients that I work with for 10 years, we're doing check ins and they need that to just to stay on track.
00:29:21
Speaker
So they'd come in, we'd do an initial session, we'd find out, we'd create some realistic goals that they could do, and we'd follow up in two to four weeks, find out what's going on, and then there I would assess how often we would need to meet. So most of my clients, yes, if we were really looking to make long-term changes, it would be about a six months to a year, if not more, and I don't want someone to get stuck in that, like I should be unwrapping all of my diet culture stuff in three months or six months, and I'm not, and it's like,
00:29:48
Speaker
No, so it's hard thing to say, but yeah, we would just come in and check in how our goal is going, what's been affecting you, create new goals, things that are realistic. And I'll like, I'll ask them and say like, I was telling a client today, you know, she was like forcing herself to work out five days a week for 45 minutes. And then she wouldn't do any of the next week. I'm like, well, is this realistic? She's like, no, I go, then why are we setting this goal? Like we need a setting that you're going to do. Right.
00:30:15
Speaker
But then it's like, oh, but aren't I supposed to be working out six days a week, an hour a day? No, we can't say that. Once again, that everybody needs to be doing the same thing. So let's come up with a goal that's going to work for you. And then we kind of go from there. So that's what it would be. And I offer in-person sessions. I offer nurturing sessions.
00:30:33
Speaker
I don't do as much restaurant outings and grocery stores. Just since the pandemic, it kind of fizzled out, but it's always an option because a lot of people just don't know what to do at the grocery store. They just do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. Oh, completely. Yeah. So that's kind of how it is. Why do you feel like so many women might hesitate to even have those conversations?
00:30:57
Speaker
Do you feel like when they come see you, you're the only one that you may have ever talked to them about this, that they don't have another outlet to discuss these things and get an honest perspective about it? I think a lot of them feel that they're alone. I think they think they're the only ones that think this. The amount of times I'll tell my clients, I'm like, oh, I hear this all the time. And they're saying to me, what? Really? I said, yeah, all day, every day. Everybody is saying the same thing.
00:31:25
Speaker
You know, and I think it's so high opening for many people that, oh, I'm not alone. What kind of things? What are they saying? If they say food rules, I guess, or if they say like they have a food rule about how they're eating like, oh, I don't want to eat. I wait this long to eat this food or I can't have this after eight o'clock or something like that. And I'll be like, yes, I hear this all the time from my clients because
00:31:55
Speaker
Somebody at one point said it and then people got, you know, used to it and thought that that was the norm or maybe discussing about their body image. I just don't like how I feel in my body and I don't like how my clothes fit. And I think, you know, once again, knowing like they're not alone in in feeling that way, I think can be very hopeful.
00:32:18
Speaker
What I find interesting about you saying this right now is for you, it sounds like there's a lot of teaching and guiding and almost counseling, but I imagine you're helping people overcome these stories that they've had for forever and the lessons that they've learned growing up.
00:32:38
Speaker
How do you coach them and then solicit change while also staying in your lane because you're not a therapist, right? Is that a fine line for you or how have you navigated that? I'm just so curious.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah, so as dieticians, we have a background in some motivational interviewing is what we call, we call it nutrition counseling. We are not therapists. We are not counselors. I have been grateful that I worked at an eating disorder facility, and all of the patients there had a therapist and a dietician. So I learned very
00:33:09
Speaker
quickly what my role was, what the therapist's role is. Of course, it's going to come up. I actually have two interns right now and they sat in some sessions and, you know, they're like, so this sounds like counseling, like what's going on? You know, I said, yes, they're going to talk about their emotions around food and these things. But if it's starting to get super deep, I always tell them, like, this is a great topic to bring up in your therapy session.
00:33:37
Speaker
and most of my clients have therapists or know that they need to have a therapist or I'll say if they don't have a therapist and it keeps coming up like maybe some more traumatic things I'll say like I think at this point it might be worth looking into
00:33:53
Speaker
seeing a therapist or a counselor to talk about these things that I can't really help you with. So I'm grateful. I've got such awesome relationships with so many therapists that I can use as referrals and that I've been able to work with and know like what is their role and what is my role. And it's been really good. But yes, there's going to be some carryover into, well, why do you think that you wait
00:34:15
Speaker
to eat breakfast till 9 a.m. instead of within 30 minutes of waking up or something and then like kind of asking those questions. But once it gets into more like serious stuff, I'm like, OK, let's go to the therapist. Yeah. Well, and I think that's a good illustration of, you know, the way we talk about having a support network and a community piece to being
00:34:38
Speaker
our best selves as business owners, which has its own levels of stress and anxiety and pressure.
Nutrition for Entrepreneurs
00:34:45
Speaker
And you know, you're juggling quite a bit. And I'm curious if you feel like nutrition has some consistent ways that you've seen it affect people's work. So what is the tie in between nutrition and how people are professionally showing up?
00:35:04
Speaker
So like for me, waking up and having my own structure to my day is part of what I do as an entrepreneur. What role should nutrition be playing in me wanting to show up as my best self for my own business versus
00:35:19
Speaker
It's not about losing weight. It's not about what TikTok says I should eat or not eat. What is the importance to me as an entrepreneur saying, I want to be setting myself up for success for an entire day, whether that's energy, just healthy eating. How does that impact
00:35:40
Speaker
the way that we're able to work. Oh, yeah. I mean, food is huge in how we function throughout the day. I mean, like you had said, you need to have energy to get through your day. I mean, I will literally sit in sessions all day. And if I'm not getting enough food in, like I can't be present for my clients. And that's not fair to them. You know, and then it's like, what message am I sending that? Well, one, I'm telling you to be eating eating myself.
00:36:07
Speaker
You know, but it's like you have to take care of yourself like that needs a bad priority. And that's the thing I see with so many women, especially moms, it's like, I'm running my business, I'm taking care of my kids, I got to do this. And it's like, then my exercise is getting forgotten, my food is getting forgotten.
00:36:24
Speaker
And it's like, no, if you cannot take care of yourself, how are we going to take care of other people? How are you going to run your business? How are you going to be able to do these things? So having enough energy is the main thing. And so you're not cloudy and foggy all day and can get through and be present for your, if you have employees or for your clients or whoever, whatever your business is, you have to be present.
00:36:47
Speaker
And it can seem a little bit, I think, Mallory, you may disagree, but it seems like sometimes on the busier days when I've got client work to do or I'm planning out new business ideas, it feels like nutrition is just like another thing that I need to do. So how can we shift that a little bit to be more like, this is something that we get to change our perspective about in ways that really fills us back up, right? How is this not just another chore?
00:37:17
Speaker
I often wonder that. Why is food a chore for so many people?
00:37:22
Speaker
It's like people have no problem working eight hours straight, but they don't want to feed themselves. I know it's like, Oh, I've got to get this. I've got to get this done. I've got to get this done. Like the amount of clients that I'm like, okay. And this is what we're doing. You're setting alarms on your phone or you're using your Google calendar and you're putting in appointment. And it's either you ride in the Peloton or you're getting lunch or you're doing something like every day you have got to put that
00:37:47
Speaker
in and just know you have to show up for yourself or you can't show up for these other people. So I think reminding yourself this is just as important. I use this analogy oftentimes. Like if you have to pee, you're going to go to the bathroom. You're not going to sit there and hold it and then not go. It's like then if you need to eat food, why aren't you just going and eating food?
00:38:11
Speaker
Like, these are all things we need to do. Drink, water, eat food, go to the bathroom, get sleep, move our bodies. It makes sense when you say it. Yes, of course it does. But let's say, okay, Nicole, I'll put you on the spot because Nicole doesn't really like eating, right? Is that fair to say? I'm not a foodie.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah, okay. So we'll say it like that. So let's say there's more Nicole's out there or for people who are just constantly getting busy and not prioritizing it. Are there some actual tips that you want to share that you can give us for making nutrition feel like a priority a little bit more than setting an alarm? Are there other things and just like overall that you can share with us busy boss ladies out there? So Nicole, you're not alone.
00:38:58
Speaker
I hear this all the time. Thank you. Thank you. I'm not kidding. Some of my clients are kind of like, you could just put an IV. Right? It's not a food pill I can take. Like, what are we doing? I know. I know. But like, we have tea for a reason. You know, men to eat food. Yeah.
00:39:15
Speaker
So I think just once again, it's something that maybe we, maybe it's not our priority, but it has to happen. Like it has to happen and we know. We need to find a way. What can I do to make myself enjoy it a little bit more? Maybe that means I find new restaurants.
00:39:31
Speaker
or I do a meal delivery service or I cook with my kids or I do something like maybe buy a new blender and try new smoothies, like something that's going to get you more excited about food because it's not going away. You got to do it. So let's figure out.
00:39:47
Speaker
how we're going to make it a little bit more enjoyable and what involvement it might be. Because I would say, almost like, let me just drink a protein shake and be done with it. To me, that gets kind of boring. And our bodies needs variety. It needs all these different vitamins and minerals and nutrients.
00:40:07
Speaker
That goes back to that intuitive eating where if we're just like tracking and paying attention to numbers, we're not going to hear our body saying like, yeah, you need broccoli or you need a brownie or you need these things if you're not really paying attention.
00:40:24
Speaker
And we have to be in tune with our body. We need to be in tune with the food piece. So I think trying to make it more fun, whatever way that is, maybe get out of your comfort zone and sign up for a cooking class or do something like that, something to make you a little uncomfortable, you know, get the anxiety up. But no, like, OK, like that's not that bad. Or I could find something like go to the grocery store and go around the aisles and see like, OK, this couldn't be terrible.
Food & Stress Management
00:40:51
Speaker
I know it's hard, but I've had clients who were where you are, where they're just apathetic about it. But the more we expose, go to the grocery store, go to new restaurants, try new foods, continue to have that, it doesn't become as much of a chore. You do tend to think about, oh, I actually want to eat this. Some of my clients, they thought they would never get to that point, who would literally eat the same thing every day.
00:41:20
Speaker
every single day for years and now it's like oh my gosh like I'm eating this and this and this but you've got to have it's called exposure therapy continuing to expose yourself to it because if you don't it is going to kind of stress you out or you're just going to be like whatever you don't care about it so like you got to kind of do a little bit of work knowing this might be like you said food's not going away
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a really good point to make it interesting in whatever way it is interesting to you. That's, I think, where we get a little bit stuck in this kind of age of social media and just being around women, frankly, where you can feel like you see people who love food and they love it and that's why they want to travel and that's the hobby, I guess, I don't know. And you can think,
00:42:09
Speaker
Is that how it's supposed to be? Well, no, maybe that's not how it's supposed to be for you. But it could still be better than just being disinterested in it, right? And that there's all this middle ground. It's the same with fitness, like the people who love, love, love to work out. And you're like, should I be loving this? Because I don't love it like that. Or even in business, like people who are just passionate about a particular service or industry. And you're like, I don't know.
00:42:38
Speaker
trying to make a living. I don't feel that way. Does that make me broken? Right. We don't have to love everything. Yeah, it's the fitness thing. I talk about that with a friend of mine all the time, like coming from an eating disorder background, it was always like you only move your body to things that you love. I'm like, I don't always love doing the workouts that I do. But I'm like, I love how I feel when I'm done.
00:43:02
Speaker
I feel accomplished. I'm like, yes, I was able to PR on my deadlift because I feel appropriately and I've been putting in the work. And yeah, it's not easy. But I like how I feel afterward. But of course, like if I have a client who comes to me like I just don't like to move.
00:43:20
Speaker
I'll say like, let's explore just with the food thing. Like, let's think of some things you like to do. Do you like to dance? Do you like to go for walks? Do you like to play volleyball or something? And if they say they don't know, OK, let's do a little challenge of we'll try a new thing once or twice a week until you find something that you do like, because same thing with food. We got to eat it and we have to move our bodies.
00:43:45
Speaker
Now, I'm not saying you need to be running or riding your bike or anything. It just has to be some sort of movement that you know you can chief up. And I think that's the big thing.
00:43:55
Speaker
All right, I want to shift gears a little bit if you'll let me go here. So I think our demographic is a lot of women who are still having menstrual cycles. I know one big light bulb for me was paying attention to some of this intuitive signaling I was getting around going into my period. And it's been really eye opening for me and having some discussions with some of my support team about it.
00:44:17
Speaker
Are there specific things, I know everyone's different, but kind of in general to maybe be more aware of in regards to nutrition around women who are still cycling.
00:44:28
Speaker
I mean, the main thing is one, making sure that you are still getting your period. That can be a whole issue in and of itself, like getting in enough food, enough fat, enough protein. So just having the energy, but making sure we're getting plenty of iron, you know, because we're losing blood during that time. So that's probably one of the main things that we could say we could focus on is getting enough iron and getting enough protein as well. So
00:44:56
Speaker
Even just enough food at all to begin with, right? That's what I'm saying. The enough food is part of the problem. And there's this big thing in the dietitian world called hypothalmic amenorrhea, where it's like you lose your period from, a lot of the times it's from over-exercising, under-eating, or stress.
00:45:17
Speaker
And people aren't realizing, you know, a lot of those things many people do and they're wondering like, Oh, what's going on? Like I don't have an eating disorder. Like I'm not worried about my body image or anything like that. I mean, an eating disorder could be one of them, but it's like just realizing, Oh, we're doing these workouts, but then not prioritizing a nutrition. Like I'm going to go to my workout. Then I got to go to work for my business that I own. Cause we've got to put
00:45:41
Speaker
our clients ahead of us. And then before we know it, it's like three hours have passed. It's like, oh my God, I haven't eaten anything after that workout. So yes, Mallory, just getting in enough food is of course the number one priority because I will say nine times out of 10 in my office, people are not eating enough food. Like there is no question about it.
00:46:02
Speaker
That's interesting. I've paid attention for like a two week stint just to know. And I thought I was going to blow it out of the water, right? And I was getting not enough calories. And so I think it led to having more cramps. It led to me not feeling as well during period week because I was craving carbs, but I wasn't eating them. It's like my body was craving carbs the week before my period because my body needs carbs going into your cycle.
00:46:24
Speaker
is my understanding, right? Yes. And it may be because you were under eating before that. And knowing like when we are under eating our body wants carbs. Why? Because it's the quickest form of energy and it knows like, Oh, I can break that down. It's interesting people like, Oh my God, I'm always craving carbs. You know, I look back, I'm like, Well, what are you eating?
00:46:44
Speaker
And it's like, oh, barely any breakfast, skipping lunch. I'm like, yes, because your body, you are in an energy deficit for the day and you're trying to make it up as quickly as possible. Once again, that's that intuitive eating of paying attention. I'm like, oh, if we don't feed our body enough food, that's what it wants. It's going to choose carbs and not that carbs are bad. But if I find somebody's always wanting that, I'm like, oh, let's look and see, you're probably not eating enough food or you're probably not eating enough fat or protein earlier on in the day.
00:47:11
Speaker
So for businesses specifically and definitely for me, there are two pieces that I think could get my brain more interested in nutrition as a benefit to myself, which I hate that I have to say that, but you know, it is what it is, which is being tired and being stressed. So if you're feeling tired, what are some things that nutrition can do to alleviate that? Like what kinds of nutrition? Like how can you get yourself to actually be feeling better
00:47:40
Speaker
using food instead of trying to work harder, trying to problem solve other things, trying to shift your schedule. Those are all parts of the puzzle. But if you're tired, what should we do? And if we're feeling very stressed, how can we nutritionally support ourselves?
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, if you're tired, this is my advice. Don't drink coffee. Don't drink an energy drink like that's what people go to. They think, oh, let me just sip on an energy drink or whatever. I don't know. I don't drink those things and not that I'm like above them. I don't even drink coffee. And it's because I always want to make sure like, oh, am I getting enough food? Like if I'm dragging like, oh, something's not right. I probably didn't get enough sleep or oh, maybe I didn't eat enough yesterday. So yes, I'm not dissing coffee or anything like that. I am kind of dissing energy drinks because there's no point to them. Energy is food.
00:48:29
Speaker
Energy has calories, you know, like that's what we need to have. We are feeling tired and sluggish and lethargic. We need food. That is the only thing. What are those, like five hour energy or something like that? I don't know what it is. Nothing that's going to help you.
00:48:45
Speaker
So that would be the main thing is just like, once again, knowing I need to have food. I need to have, when I look at my meals and my snacks, am I getting in some carbohydrates? Because that's what gives me energy, that quick source of energy. But I also know, oh, I'm going into a two or three hour meeting. I need to have some protein in there and some fat to keep me sustained. So paying attention to, am I getting all those macronutrients?
00:49:12
Speaker
protein, carbs, fat, and of course fiber from fruits and vegetables. We're kind of looking at our meals to make sure, is there a good balance of things? Because like I know, like sometimes if I have early mornings and then I have to go into like back to back clients, there's literally no break. So I have to eat a bigger meal that I know has fat and protein that's going to hold me over for three or four hours, which I mean, I'm someone that's eating like
00:49:39
Speaker
every three hours because I'm a very active person. And that's just what my body needs. But when I know I have to go longer than that, I'm like, OK, I better really bulk it up and throw in some more protein and some more fat, too, but also have that carbs and have that energy, if that makes sense.
00:49:54
Speaker
Yep. Yep. And what about if you're in a period of stress? So what are the ways that we can nutritionally alleviate some of that? Because we may not always be able to problem solve the thing that's stressing us out. But if you're not nutritionally supporting yourself, that might make everything feel worse than it actually is. So I'm curious what you tell people as far as mental wellbeing, how is that supported by nutrition?
00:50:21
Speaker
Well, that's the same thing, like I was saying, that the simple energy, the carbs and the sugar, so when we're stressed, that's what our body wants because it knows, like when I hear people say, almost stress eater or an emotional eater, once again, like that sort of body
00:50:37
Speaker
wants to have because it knows it can get that energy very quickly. But then I always reflect back like, well, what is going on the other part of the day? What is leading up to it? Oh, you didn't eat breakfast. This didn't happen. And not to be like shaming somebody, but we can prevent that. Our stress and our anxiety is heightened and our depression when we don't get enough food.
00:51:01
Speaker
So even just starting with that, enough food. And then, yes, if I want to go a step further, am I getting some omega-3s? You know, that can help with that anxiety, depression, things like that, that fat. So looking at that.
00:51:17
Speaker
really just simplifying it is, am I getting the fat, the protein, the fiber, the grains? So like I said, it can be exacerbated when we're stressed. We just want to have that simple sugar and carbs and not that those are bad. They're not bad.
00:51:32
Speaker
But we're just going to eat them and we're not going to be satisfied. And then it's just like, oh, my God, this is what happens. I just binge on these foods. And then it starts that cycle. But we can put a stop to that by prioritizing nutrition and making sure it might be that when you're planning out your day,
00:51:52
Speaker
knowing, looking on your calendar, when you're an entrepreneur of like, okay, what do I have on my calendar? I mean, I do this. Like before I even go to bed, I'm like looking on my calendar. What's my schedule for the day? Because mine changes every single day. Like no day is the same. And I'm thinking, okay, I got to do this.
00:52:08
Speaker
All right, I'm thinking about, all right, I'm gonna do this for breakfast, this for lunch. Okay, I've got to bring a snack here. Even just thinking it through. It doesn't even have to be like going out to the kitchen and packing it, but just knowing this is what I'm gonna grab in the morning or in the night before when you're making dinner. All right, let me just throw all my stuff together for the next day and then it's ready to go. So there has to be some planning because otherwise it's gonna fall by the wayside and then we don't prioritize it.
00:52:36
Speaker
But I think especially women business owners are more likely to do that planning and put in that effort if we can say it's gonna make you feel better, right? It's gonna make you feel better at work. It will help you feel less stressed. It will help you feel less tired. And this is maybe a lever that we are not pulling as often as we should when we just put in longer hours or we go to the gym, right?
Productivity Through Nutrition
00:52:59
Speaker
Sometimes that's the first thing that people are like, well, you know, set me up for my day. And it's like, did you even have breakfast?
00:53:04
Speaker
I don't know, like if you didn't have breakfast, like, so just convincing ourselves that nutrition is part of the puzzle of having a better day and then it becomes something that is desirable.
00:53:17
Speaker
Yes. And you're less irritated with people because you're able to focus instead of just, once again, your body is just, it becomes foggy and you can't really manage things very well. You will be a better business owner.
00:53:34
Speaker
by fueling your body appropriately. You can be more present. You can get more done. You know, it's so hard when you're like, oh, let me just get this done. Let me just get this done. It's like, oh, if you took that 15 minute break and ate lunch and came back to it, you'll be more refreshed and can be more efficient at doing whatever project that you're working on. Exactly.
00:53:53
Speaker
Is there somewhere for just people in general to start, if they're overwhelmed by all this, to say like, just start with this thing first? I mean, maybe you've already talked about it. And then if they need support, I know you said you help people virtually so they could seek you out, but also are there certain types of things to look for if they're looking for a nutritionist to guide them?
00:54:14
Speaker
Honestly, I think when you're feeling that overwhelmed, you need a professional like you really do because I could send you on your way to go look something up. And then to me, that's when people come to me. They're like, Heidi, I've been looking at Google and this, I continue to get overwhelmed. And I don't think that there's one right.
00:54:34
Speaker
place to go or there's one right answer. And I'm not saying this to plug my business, of course, but I also don't want people to waste their time while trying to figure it out. I think about when I had this injury after I gave birth to Caroline, my oldest, I'm doing this run around seeing all these providers and everything. And I finally met with this and everyone said they could help me and then they couldn't. And I'm like, it was six months and I wasn't running.
00:55:01
Speaker
And then I finally got a referral from somehow Stefan knew somebody in St. Louis, and I still see him. And he got me fixed up. And I'm like, I don't want people to do what I did, where I spent six months flailing around, trying to manage this injury. And then it was right in front of me. If someone just put me in the right direction.
00:55:20
Speaker
You know, so that's why I always feel like, and don't feel like you have to meet with a dietician long-term. It may be, I just want to meet for one session and measure my goals. Can you point me in to the right direction? Because everybody is different. Maybe somebody is an athlete. Maybe somebody was diagnosed with a GI issue. Maybe someone has cancer. Maybe somebody wants to quit dieting. So I always say like, look for the professional.
00:55:45
Speaker
And for me, it must be a registered dietician. They're the ones that have the background, the science. Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist. And I don't think people know that there's a difference. Most people don't. They just think, oh, nutrition, whatever. But there's no governing body to a nutritionist. There is for a dietician. I am licensed.
00:56:07
Speaker
And I have to keep up on my education and make sure that I'm abiding by the ethics of dietetics. So that's something to think about. And you know that we present the science. Whatever is the science, whether we like it or not, that's how I have to present.
00:56:24
Speaker
and just say like nutrition is a ever-changing science and people don't realize it hasn't been around as long as like biology and chemistry. So they always wonder like, why is it always changing? Like it's literally just a barely over, I mean, a hundred and something years old. It's not that old. So I think just that. And like I said, because I can direct you and like, yeah, get this book, get this, but it's like, I don't know if that is the right answer for every single person. So it's like, go to the dietician,
00:56:51
Speaker
And then like I said, it could be one session. I'm like, okay, this is what you need to do. And then they could be on their way too. Awesome. I'm curious as a kind of final wrap up and takeaway, what is one mindset shift that you would like to see really broadly among women as it relates to nutrition?
Body Positivity & Dieting Culture
00:57:12
Speaker
I don't know about nutrition. I think nutrition and body image, I would really love for women to not necessarily say that they need to love their body, but maybe stop hating it so much and really look at it as what it's capable of doing and not looking at fitness as a weight loss tool.
00:57:36
Speaker
or nutrition as a weight loss tool. As we've talked about feeling our body appropriately so we can be the best versions of ourselves, like taking care of ourselves. I don't like seeing women hating themselves, and there's too much of that. It's not right. It's not fair. And I have three daughters, and I think about that all the time.
00:57:57
Speaker
I could not imagine having any of my kids raising up, hating themselves and thinking like, what if I was better, like losing weight? Like that will be the answer to everything. So I think the shift would be to believe that weight loss is not the answer. Like it doesn't have to be the answer to happiness. And maybe you hear this all the time and I do in my space, like we know
00:58:22
Speaker
Just because you lose weight, maybe you build up confidence, but that's because of the society we live in, where people are praised for being in center bodies. But does that really make you happier? And what are the things that you have to do to get to that point?
00:58:37
Speaker
Are you cutting off more communication with friends, not going out to dinners, like those types of things that make us happy and have more fulfillment in our lives than just being in a specific body? So I would say I would just love for women to really start not giving into the diet culture and realizing there's so much more to life.
00:59:00
Speaker
Oh, that was a beautiful way to wrap up. And I think we will end on that because we have come up to the end of our time together. But Heidi, I think you've given us so many great insights and we really appreciate you sharing your time and your knowledge with all of our listeners. So thank you for being here. Yes, I was happy to be here. Thank you. All right. Well, everybody, that wraps us up for this week. We will see you again on the next episode.
00:59:27
Speaker
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