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One on One - Brendan O'Kane
120 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Gretchen Crowder interviews Brendan O'Kane.
Brendan O'Kane is the husband of Anita Maina and is a parishioner, acolyte, and parish council member at St. Ignatius Catholic Church. He lives in Baltimore, Maryland, and currently serves as the Director of Ignatian Mission and Identity at Loyola Blakefield. He just finished a three-year program in spiritual direction and holds master's degrees in Theological Studies and Educational Leadership all from Loyola University, Maryland.
He is part of the team that created Companions on the Way which is an online journey with the Spiritual Exercises for Ignatian Educators and Leaders. He has been working in Jesuit education since 2007, is an avid long-distance runner, and occasionally writes his thoughts in his blog - itwillallbok.com
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If this episode hits home and you feel you have your own story to share, email Gretchen at lovedasyouarepod@gmail.com.
Follow along and contribute to the conversation @lovedasyouarepod on Instagram.
Find more from Gretchen Crowder @gdcrowder as well as at gretchencrowder.com.
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Transcript
Choosing Zencaster for Podcasting
00:00:00
Speaker
Back in April, when I decided to finally hit the ground running and bring this podcast to life, I searched for hours for a platform that would allow me to easily record guest conversations and give me all the tools I needed to bring those conversations directly and quickly to you.
00:00:16
Speaker
I use Zencaster primarily for recording the audio and video for each of my podcast episodes. It does an incredible job of recording separate audio and video tracks for me and my guests and making sure that even when my internet or theirs goes a little wonky, I don't lose any part of the wonderful conversations I have recorded. It's now super easy to record a podcast with Zencaster. Log in using your browser and start recording a high-quality podcast right away. Record studio quality and sound up to 4K video with your guests.
00:00:44
Speaker
If you have thought about podcasting before and realize that you need a lot of different tools and services, those days are over. With Zencaster's all-in-one podcasting platform, you can create your podcast all in one place and distribute it to Spotify, Apple, and other major destinations. Go to zencaster.com slash pricing and use my code LOVED AS YOU ARE and you'll get 30% off your first month of any Zencaster paid plan. I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs.
00:01:14
Speaker
It's time to share your story.
Personal Story: Managing Addison's Disease
00:01:17
Speaker
As you all know by now, I was diagnosed with a rare disease called Addison's disease this past December. One of the challenges with Addison's disease is keeping myself hydrated. So of course I have spent a lot of time researching the best electrolytes to have as a part of my daily commitment to health and wellness. If you like me need electrolytes to keep you feeling your best, check out Liquid IV. Liquid IV is a category-winning hydration brand
00:01:42
Speaker
fueling your well-being and their hydration multiplier is one product you are missing in your daily routine. In just one stick, you'll get five essential vitamins and two times faster hydration than water alone. Use it first thing in the morning before a workout or use it like I do as a daily way to keep myself healthy and hydrated. It's one of the best products I've found to do just that. It's easy to add a stick to water and it tastes incredible. I particularly love the simplicity of the lemon lime flavor. Try it now.
00:02:10
Speaker
you won't be disappointed. Get 20% off when you go to liquidiv.com and use code LOVEDASUR at checkout. That's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today using promo code LOVEDASUR at liquidiv.com.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Teasers
00:02:39
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to Loved As You Are in Ignatian podcast with me, Gretchen Crowder. I am so glad you are here. I can't believe that school is starting up again any minute now. It's been a relaxing summer filled with some really great conversations with friends on this podcast, and I'm pleased to tell you that I have many more conversations to come.
Meeting Brendan: Shared Interests in Ministry
00:03:01
Speaker
Like today's with Brendan O'Kane, I first met Brendan at a Jesuit schools network campus ministers conference in Kansas City, Kansas.
00:03:09
Speaker
He was nice enough to accompany me on my many trips to the nearby Starbucks during our week-long conference. That was eight years ago. And since that time, we have connected at a few other Jesuit schools' network events over coffee, of course, discussing everything from ministry to life to our mutual love of writing. Besides being my friend and fellow campus minister, Brendan O'Kane is the husband of Anita Meine and is a parishioner, acolyte, and parish council member at St. Ignatius Catholic Church.
00:03:38
Speaker
He lives in Baltimore, Maryland, and currently serves as the Director of Ignatian Mission and Identity at Loyola Blakefield. He just finished a three-year program in spiritual direction and holds master's degrees in Theological Studies and Educational Leadership, all from Loyola University, Maryland. He is a part of the team that created Companions on the Way, which is an online journey with the spiritual exercises for Ignatian educators and leaders. He has been working in Jesuit education since 2007,
00:04:06
Speaker
and is an avid long-distance runner. And occasionally, he writes his thoughts in his blog.
Brendan's Journey: Sobriety and Writing
00:04:11
Speaker
Itwillallbeok.com, linked in the show notes. I enjoyed speaking with Brendan about everything from his sobriety to his newest habit of journaling and more. This was such a great conversation with my friend, Brendan O'Kane. I'm sure you won't want to miss a minute. So, here we go.
00:05:06
Speaker
Welcome, Vernon. It's so great to be with you this morning. I just introduced you to my listeners, letting them know that we met at a Jesuit schools network campus ministers conference like nine or 10 years ago. And you were kind enough to join me on all of my needed Starbucks runs there, not an ad for Starbucks, but just where I went. And at a few conferences in the future, we did the same thing. And our conversations kind of changed from just like ministry and spirituality to
00:05:34
Speaker
focusing on life and also writing because we have that shared love of writing. So I've always really enjoyed our conversations and I'm glad that we can have a conversation today on the pod and bring your unique perspective on this topic of being loved as you are. So again, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me.
00:05:51
Speaker
And thank you, Gretchen. And I've always admired the way that you were able to continue in your writing and even grow in your writing while your life responsibilities continue to grow as well. And I'm really a big fan of your work and very grateful to be on with you.
00:06:12
Speaker
And I'm always interested to read when you post a new blog post on your website, because as with every writer knows, we all have our own unique voice and our own unique way of bringing that to the world. And so it's always great to read somebody else's stuff. Some things cannot be replaced by artificial intelligence, right? So our own personalities, our own perspectives, our own journeys, it's great to hear about them.
00:06:36
Speaker
And by the way, congratulations on recently celebrating your third wedding anniversary as well. Thank you so much. When I was going through your bio, I mentioned companions on the way. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about what that is in case anyone wants to check it out?
Spiritual Conversations and Ignatian Education
00:06:51
Speaker
Sure. So I was a part of a two year program for Jesuit school leaders that you've done as well. And essentially at the end of this program, one of the invitations was, okay, we have just done all this professional development for
00:07:10
Speaker
becoming a leader or being a leader in Jesuit schools, now a next step, if you haven't done it already, would be to have an experience of praying the spiritual exercises. And along with Damien Zinda and Bob Steffen, two other mission and identity officers, what we talked about was, does every school have access to a program that would allow them
00:07:36
Speaker
to pray the 19th annotation of the spiritual exercises. So that's really where the virtual component came from and also just the focus on Ignatian Educators specifically. And what it's turned into is we have participants, some that have a program at their school, and this is kind of adding on to what they already do. And then some people that
00:08:00
Speaker
actually don't have the really availability or at their school to pray the exercises and this allows them to do that. And we collaborate with some really talented spiritual directors in order to make that happen.
00:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's incredible because one of the things as an educator myself, I know is a challenge is sometimes being directed by someone you actually work with, you know, 24 hours a day and you see them and you're also trying to do the spiritual conversation with them, but work conversations kind of get in the way. So to have a resource of people that are not in your direct line of interaction is really incredible.
00:08:41
Speaker
I'm glad y'all are providing that for people that are interested and they can go to the website and read all about it. Definitely.
00:08:50
Speaker
It is important, I think, that in the spiritual direction or just in any sort of conversation, especially when you're trying to get to know yourself better and know God better, is honesty. So if people don't feel like they can be completely honest in those conversations, then having an outside person to talk to can be really helpful. Sometimes it's not necessary, but everybody's different and, yeah, very grateful to be a part of that program.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah, everybody is different. Everyone needs someone different when it comes to spiritual direction, just like everyone needs someone different when it comes to counseling or mental health. And so that opportunity to get to know people and reach outside of your normal circles of influence is a great one to have.
Exploring God's Grace and Human Imperfection
00:09:34
Speaker
So I usually start these conversations with the question of who is God to you and how did you come to that understanding? In the mystery of who God is, I think it's God is best communicated through the Good Shepherd, the way that Jesus is depicted as the Good Shepherd, and really just thinking about
00:09:58
Speaker
What goes into caring for a flock on a daily basis that's really kind of how i do you gotta think about some attributes.
00:10:10
Speaker
patience, just attention, perseverance, and just kind of thinking about the long term. So it's not just enough that the sheep are taken care of today, but in the future as well. So I feel like God has my best interest in mind as well. And also I think the way that I've
00:10:32
Speaker
come to understand God as well as through my grandmother, specifically her devotion in her prayer life. I think I've learned a lot about God through conversations with her about how she has communicated how God worked with her in her life.
00:10:49
Speaker
than the idea of being loved as I am. I think that really wraps into it that love, really true love is as oftentimes you hear at weddings, you know, patient and kind. And I really do think that in many ways, a lot of us experience fair weathered love where
00:11:10
Speaker
people, the second that we let them down or the second that we show that we're really not perfect, then, you know, we might not be met with that grace or that understanding. And God does have that understanding and grace that a lot of us don't towards each other. I'm very grateful because otherwise I don't think I would be in the position I am now because
00:11:37
Speaker
I feel like to do the work that I'm doing, I also have to have a healthy relationship with God because it would be hypocritical otherwise.
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah, I love that you bring up that first Corinthians reading, love is patient, love is kind. When I was talking about that with students earlier this year, I was remarking on when you hear that read at, many of us had that read at a wedding, right? So when you hear that read at a wedding, it's this overwhelming sense that you have to be the person that's emulated in that reading. But really what the reading is, is about God saying, I am going to be patient and kind with you no matter what, I'm going to do all of these things.
00:12:17
Speaker
and our hope is human beings is to try and be the same to one another, but even when we can't be, there's someone that's always being that way towards us, which if we take that reading in that perspective, it's a little less daunting on our imperfect humanity. That is spot on, absolutely.
00:12:36
Speaker
Sometimes we have a lot of pressure on ourselves to be these images that either we read in the scriptures or that are conveyed to us. But I don't even know if God's asking that of us, just asking us to
00:12:51
Speaker
accept the love God's giving to us and then do something with it, right? And try to return it as much as we can. Yeah, amen. And I think that really what you spoke to there, the word that I want to focus on is that trying peace. I feel like that trying peace is non-negotiable. I mean, if we're not trying, well, then yeah, I do think it is difficult for God to work with us. Of course, God will, but it is better if we are
00:13:20
Speaker
putting ourselves out there. And I think that that's where Ignatius largely was drawn to the imitation of Christ in the sense where
00:13:30
Speaker
I think he really did want to be Jesus in many ways as far as just how Jesus lived, right? But ultimately found out that he was flawed and that was a really tough understanding I think for him. So I think that trying piece is really everything and understanding we're not God, right? So yeah, thank you for that.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think with working with teenagers, but also with my own kids who are much younger, we always talk about having that attitude of continuing to try, continuing to get back up even when you fail. And I think it's hard for us as adults sometimes to have that attitude for ourselves. That idea that we're not going to give up in our relationships, we're not going to give up on trying to just be our most authentic human selves.
00:14:21
Speaker
Definitely. And I really do think the best thing that we could do for one another in relationships or in at work, you know, at schools or in the workplace, whatever it may be, as parents, I don't have kids of my own, but hopefully one day would be to really just understand and accept that fact that, you know, we will let each other down at some point. We will,
00:14:46
Speaker
We will frustrate each other, we will be a little too short with each other sometimes, but ultimately that is part of life. We don't have to accept the behavior all the time and we can set boundaries short. Yeah, just giving ourselves a little bit of space and grace to live.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, so I know that in my development of who I think God is and how I came to that understanding Ignatian spirituality and the story of St. Ignatius was really important.
Brendan's Ignatian Spirituality and Faith Journey
00:15:20
Speaker
And I know that that's a big part of your life as well. How did you come to know about Ignatian spirituality? Like what was that introduction in your life and what does it mean to you?
00:15:31
Speaker
I had a rather jarring introduction to Ignatian spirituality, I believe so at least. And then I also had a very innocuous, I guess, or softer introduction. So the softer introduction would be the fact that I went to the University of Scranton for my first year of college and then transferred to Loyola College, Loyola University now.
00:15:58
Speaker
And I know that the way I was treated and the way that I feel and felt about that experience, I know that that was Ignatian education, Ignatian pedagogy. I know that I experienced Ignatian spirituality in that way.
00:16:16
Speaker
For example, Scranton, we had various community engagement efforts and whatnot. And I knew that that was rooted in something. At the time, though, I wasn't very active in my faith. I was active in my faith in high school and then fell away largely for a good amount of college. And then the really more aggressive introduction, I guess you'd call it, would be I went on a
00:16:44
Speaker
community engagement immersion trip in Baltimore. And we slept on the floor above a soup kitchen and just went out in the community and did various projects and engaged with people in different ways throughout the week. And it was led by one of my classmates, well, someone who was a year older than I was.
00:17:08
Speaker
who was Jesuit educated himself in high school and in college and led the experience. We started off, he broke a flower pot essentially into a million pieces. And throughout the week, we glued it together as a group.
00:17:28
Speaker
The image was essentially that we're all broken, but God uses everything in our lives, especially like the story of St. Anatius. A lot of times we like to disregard the pre-conversion or pre-transformation, you know, Ignatius, but
00:17:48
Speaker
A lot of the skills that he learned in the courts and whatnot served him really well later on in life and God used those as well. And that really, that experience that week brought me back in many ways to my Catholic faith and was a real introduction to Ignatius and Ignatian spirituality.
00:18:11
Speaker
That's awesome. There's, and I'm forgetting the name of it right now, but the Japanese form of art where if a pot has a crack in it, then you add gold to fill in the crack, but you don't throw the pot away or you don't like try to repair it so it doesn't look like it exists, that the cracks are a part of the beauty. So when I saw the image in my mind of that pot that you broke and put back together,
00:18:35
Speaker
We don't often think about a shattered pot put back together, that the new thing is beautiful and probably more beautiful than the original. But that's how God sees us, right? Absolutely. The new thing that has all those cracks filled in is even more beautiful than how we started out.
00:18:50
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think oftentimes we try and hide those cracks and those imperfections and we overcompensate, or I know at least I have and I do. And I think God is inviting us to really reckon with and embrace and sit with maybe some of our flaws or
00:19:11
Speaker
are imperfections and attend to them, but definitely not hide them. I think it was Thomas Merton had the comparison between Adam and Job, and the difference is that Adam hid and Job called out and turned towards God. So we're not to hide, we're to call out and embrace God's love.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, and some of the things that we see in ourselves as imperfections because they don't meet the standard way of proceeding in the world are not actually imperfections, right? They are just a beautiful part of who we are. So being able to determine the difference between the things we need to work on and the things that we just need to embrace as a beautiful part of ourselves, that's always a big challenge, not only for teenagers and children, but also I think for adults as well. So right.
00:20:07
Speaker
Is there a particular moment or story you can point to where this understanding of God loving you as you are, all those imperfections, all those cracks became real for you?
Commitment to Sobriety and Relationships
00:20:18
Speaker
Definitely. So from a young age, I took very seriously some of the teachings in the church and just in, I guess, various youth group activities that I did about how we are to treat our bodies and, you know, so about avoiding, you know, smoking or alcohol and, you know, et cetera, just treating ourselves well and being respectful of our bodies.
00:20:46
Speaker
And especially when talking about relationships and just kind of holding the relationship as sacred. So one of the things from a very early age that I gave a lot of thought to was drinking.
00:21:04
Speaker
drinking alcohol. And I had experience I was introduced pretty early on in high school. And then thankfully I made the decision right around my sophomore year of high school that I wasn't going to drink at all. And then I really didn't until my senior year of college.
00:21:23
Speaker
And then I started back up and largely I started back up because I really did feel like it was something that I kind of needed to do in order to just be normal. And I remember going to an assembly at our school, we had Chris Herron come and speak and Chris Herron
00:21:44
Speaker
I was a former professional basketball player, he does a lot of speaking engagements now about addiction and combating addiction and he himself was addicted to alcohol and drugs and really hit rock bottom, lost his career in many ways and then is now has made a resurgence as a motivational speaker and working with students and has rehab centers and whatnot.
00:22:09
Speaker
And one of the questions that he asks is, why did you feel the need to change yourself? So essentially, in asking the question before drinking is like, why do you feel like you need to do this in order to change yourself?
00:22:26
Speaker
I've heard people say, you know, oh, I don't drink to change myself. It's just something I enjoy. And that's completely fine, too. I know that everybody's different. But for me, I think he put words to something that has always been a question for me was that
00:22:44
Speaker
Why am I doing this I never really I knew that it wasn't something that I wanted to do and I knew based on you know you hear about extended family members or whatnot that might be battling with this and it might not be something that you want to start.
00:23:02
Speaker
He gave voice to that question of why did you start this in the first place? Why do you feel like you needed to change yourself? And so I drank for another period of time from about 21 to 25, I guess. And I made the decision around 25 to stop drinking. And I remember that
00:23:27
Speaker
And an instance of God loving me as I am is how I was treated by a few of my close friends and people that loved me, my family members, that really were always waiting for me to come home to myself because for me, drinking was not the right path. Now,
00:23:54
Speaker
If you were to look at how I interacted with alcohol, would you say that I had a problem? I mean, I personally say that, but according to society's standards, I'm not quite sure, especially when you hear stories about really just kind of what's accepted now as like a bad night or whatever. I was never in trouble with the law or anything like that, but I think I experienced that being loved as I am when
00:24:22
Speaker
sober right over twelve years now people actually still like me and wanted to hang out with me and. I even had a few friends just that are just like i like you better when you know you're like this and that was really an amazing experience for me and now to be in a relationship.
00:24:45
Speaker
with my wife who has only known me as who I've been, who I am now, and loves me as I am.
Personal Reflections on Spiritual Growth
00:24:56
Speaker
I have a letter from my grandmother here, and she passed away a little over a year ago, and she was sober as well for over 50 years. She said, God and I are always with you, and then she underlines one day at a time.
00:25:12
Speaker
And I think that that daily reminder that I'm loved as I am without any changes, you know, it's not like, you know, I don't need to do anything to myself other than try my best in order to be loved. And that's a really revolutionary thing for me.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah, and I like how within the context of your story, you talked about how this is the choice that made sense for you to fully be who you are. Because I think in one thing we lose sometimes with not discerning,
00:25:48
Speaker
is that idea that there's a conversation between God and you, and it has its own kind of implications, it has its own decisions, it has its own way of proceeding. And when other people come into that conversation, other voices come in, you can sometimes make a decision that's not really tailored to who you are as a unique individual. So I think it brings to mind this idea that is so important in Ignatian spirituality
00:26:17
Speaker
of discernment, discernment being something that is a continual ongoing conversation between you and God, that really reflects who you are as a person and what you're meant to do and who you're meant to be. Definitely. And for some people, casual drinking or whatever it may be, really doesn't get in the way of their deepest desire and increases in faith, hope, and love.
00:26:44
Speaker
you know, some people might even say it is something that could really bring people together, right? You know, like, I mean, think about the joy at social gatherings and weddings and such. So yeah, I just really think that it is all about discernment and doing what's best for you. And I mean, thankfully, I've been blessed with the ability to still be in social situations and
00:27:10
Speaker
you know, I'm not I don't feel a desire anymore, or compulsion in any way. And so I'm actually able to witness people who are, you know, engaging responsibly and socially. And, but but I will say that it does break my heart when I see people who
00:27:33
Speaker
I don't think really have undergone that soul searching to discover like, maybe this isn't the best thing for me. And I think that whatever it may be in life, whether it's
00:27:51
Speaker
negative self-talk or any other issue. I really do think all of us need to spend some time in excavating our soul and to get to the root of this podcast, right? Are we loving ourselves as we are? And
00:28:15
Speaker
And if the answer to that is, I'm not sure, or, you know, maybe this might be getting in the way. Well, then, you know, that's something that needs attention or deserves attention. Because we deserve that attention.
00:28:29
Speaker
I don't remember what stage or what week it was in the spiritual exercises when I looked at the gospel passage of the rich young man. But I know that that one challenges people a lot, especially when you talk about it with teenagers, because they are looking forward to their ambition and their success and what they're going to do with their life.
00:28:47
Speaker
And when you look at that, it's like, give up all you have, you know, give all your riches away. And so I remember looking at that gospel passage going, well, I really am not having a problem with money right now. Like that's, I'm not insanely wealthy, but here are the other things that
00:29:04
Speaker
might be standing in the way of my relationship with God that are unique to me. And so whenever I look at that passage, it's like the thing that got in the way between the rich young man and his relationship with God was money and was wealth and success. But for each of us, it's a different thing. For some of us, it might be alcohol. For some of us, it might be gossip. For some of us, it might be low self-esteem that results in us bullying other people or taking it out on other people.
00:29:31
Speaker
lots of different things that affect how that relationship goes forward. I'm so glad that you brought up that story, that parable. It's spot on. I think that that's really it. If we allow ourselves some time to discern what those things might be, they could really help us have a more fulfilling life and our loved ones around us.
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for pointing out that. Yeah, it's like, what is the one thing that you think that you couldn't live without?
Revisiting Zencaster and Personal Wellness
00:30:15
Speaker
Back in April, when I decided to finally hit the ground running and bring this podcast to life, I searched for hours for a platform that would allow me to easily record guest conversations and give me all the tools I needed to bring those conversations directly and quickly to you.
00:30:31
Speaker
I use Zencaster primarily for recording the audio and video for each of my podcast episodes. It does an incredible job of recording separate audio and video tracks for me and my guests and making sure that even when my internet or theirs goes a little wonky, I don't lose any part of the wonderful conversations I have recorded. It's now super easy to record a podcast with Zencaster. Log in using your browser and start recording a high-quality podcast right away. Record studio quality and sound up to 4K video with your guests.
00:30:59
Speaker
If you have thought about podcasting before and realize that you need a lot of different tools and services, those days are over. With Zencaster's all-in-one podcasting platform, you can create your podcast all in one place and distribute it to Spotify, Apple, and other major destinations. Go to zencaster.com slash pricing and use my code LOVED AS YOU ARE and you'll get 30% off your first month of any Zencaster paid plan. I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs.
00:31:29
Speaker
It's time to share your story. As you all know by now, I was diagnosed with a rare disease called Addison's disease this past December. One of the challenges with Addison's disease is keeping myself hydrated. So of course I have spent a lot of time researching the best electrolytes to have as a part of my daily commitment to health and wellness.
00:31:49
Speaker
If you, like me, need electrolytes to keep you feeling your best, check out Liquid IV. Liquid IV is a category-winning hydration brand fueling your wellbeing, and their hydration multiplier is one product you are missing in your daily routine. In just one stick, you'll get five essential vitamins and two times faster hydration than water alone. Use it first thing in the morning before a workout, or use it like I do as a daily way to keep myself healthy and hydrated.
00:32:15
Speaker
It's one of the best products I've found to do just that. It's easy to add a stick to water and it tastes incredible. I particularly love the simplicity of the lemon-lime flavor. Try it now. You won't be disappointed. Get 20% off when you go to liquidiv.com and use code LOVEDASUR at checkout. That's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today using promo code LOVEDASUR at liquidiv.com.
00:32:46
Speaker
you think that you couldn't live without, right?
Ignatian Spirituality: Indifference and Consolations
00:32:50
Speaker
One of your vices or one of your, you know, something, having that realization that like, Oh, no, I can't leave this behind. And so why not? You know, what's behind that? Or, or why is that some so important to you? Yeah, thank you for that.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, it reminds me of the first time I heard the first principle and foundation, the meditation that starts the spiritual exercises where Ignatius was inviting us not to put wealth over poverty or success over failure or sickness over health.
00:33:24
Speaker
that all of those things had a potential of inviting us to a closer relationship with God. I remember reading that and being like, well, of course I want to be healthy and successful and all of those things. And that indifference was a really hard thing to wrap my mind around.
00:33:42
Speaker
that all of those things that got in the way of that indifference that ability to just say yes to God were things that I needed to examine and things that I needed to pray about and none of those were bad in themselves but if they kept a barrier between me and a relationship with God or me and the person I was calling being called to be then then they became something that was definitely I think about that all the time in the sense where I
00:34:07
Speaker
you know, is my love of God and my belief in God conditional, right? So what would have to happen in my life for me to no longer, you know, claim Christ as your Savior or, you know, that the existence of God or whatever it may be, you know, is there something that could happen that would push me to the point where I don't believe or I'm not faithful anymore? Because really right now, to be honest, I'm
00:34:36
Speaker
things are going well, right? So at this time, I know Ignatius invites us to store up those consolations for the inevitable desolation, right? Knowing that, you know, unfortunately, life does have those those low points. And yeah, there there's a lot there to unpack. And yeah, I'm grateful that you pointed out the idea of discernment earlier, too, because I really think it all comes back to
00:35:06
Speaker
continually like every day evaluating that. That brings me to ask how do you continually every day or you know every year evaluate this idea of being loved as you are and be able to continually not only internalize it for yourself but to help other people internalize as well.
00:35:26
Speaker
So something I started in October that I have been telling myself I was going to do for my whole life is just writing a journal. My great grandfather, who came over from Ireland, I went and met some of my family a few years ago, and he kept
00:35:52
Speaker
a journal where every day he wrote who sent him mail, who he wrote mail to, and like the weather, and maybe like, you know, one line, and then it had an M in the upper right hand corner.
00:36:08
Speaker
And I remember going through pages on pages on pages and there's always ends, always ends. And what that stood for was mass. So he went to, to daily mass. So our school has daily mass. So that's definitely something that I value. And then the other is, is just really writing just a few lines every day, which is a form of an exam. And, you know, where.
00:36:34
Speaker
what i'm not what i'm grateful for what got in the way and where did i see god in many ways that's really helpful and then also in my examine i am very prone to if i had a conversation with someone and i didn't like my tone or what not. I'm very prone to like beating myself up for those interactions.
00:36:58
Speaker
So one of the things that I've gotten in the habit of doing, I had a colleague, a friend gave me a box and essentially what you do is it's an ornate little box and what you do is you write.
00:37:12
Speaker
you know, something or just even if you don't have pen, you just symbolically like think about you put that interaction into the box and then you close it and, and really that closes the chapter on, on all that, right. So tomorrow I'm not going to feel terrible about maybe interrupting somebody in a meeting or something like that.
00:37:38
Speaker
That is so interesting you say that because you're over in Maryland and I'm in Texas and we have had the same kind of interaction about a box. At the end of the school year, I had a mini retreat with some colleagues and the person directing us invited us to think about our graces and then to put in a very tiny box in the corner of the page any challenges that arose in prayer.
00:38:01
Speaker
And so this summer i actually went on amazon and bought some really little boxes that i was like i'm taking these with me to school in august and everytime something comes up that just like keeps me from. Doing my job or doing just being a good person or interacting with people because that happens to me all the time i get fixated on something that i'm gonna write it down and put in the box and see if it will.
00:38:26
Speaker
take it out of me and put it somewhere else. My thought was, come back to it later when it's lost its energy and power over me. But I was just laughing because he brought up kind of the same skill. And every time I've told somebody about that, they're like, oh my gosh, I've got to do this box thing.
00:38:44
Speaker
Well, what I love about it, I remember my father when I was going through a difficult relationship. He told me, put it in a box, like take this relationship and put it on a shelf and leave it there.
00:39:04
Speaker
And I think if you were to, my wife is a therapist, if you were to talk to her, I'm not sure she would say that that's the healthiest way to go about some things, but what I think it does is it allows there to be an end. You know, so maybe if there's things that are unresolved, so for example, the email that upset you, I mean, maybe there actually is something that needs attention there, right?
00:39:33
Speaker
you know, you want to put it in the box, but okay, we're actually going to have to come back to that, right? You know, but if it's something that just needs to be put away, sometimes it's okay to just say like, I'm leaving this, you know, so I love that you that you got a box, you know, for the year, that's really great. It kind of
00:39:56
Speaker
makes me think of how I clean out my closet because I'm never quite ready to get rid of things. So I often will shove them in like a bag or a box in the back of my closet and be like, if I forget about these in a year, I'm not going to open that box. I'm just going to take it to Goodwill and see where it goes.
00:40:12
Speaker
So that's awesome. The other thing I say about your journaling is you said you've been wanting to do this forever. I think all of us have that thought that we're going to keep a journal because it is a great tool. It's a great prayerful tool. It's a great reflective tool. I think sometimes my perfectionism and my not
00:40:31
Speaker
loving myself as I am gets in the way of me journaling because I will do it for a couple of days and then I'll look at it or I'll mess up a page or I didn't like what I wrote down and I can't go back and get rid of it and then you know and then the whole process stops. So Gresham let me tell you I that resonates with me so much and what I was able to do to get past that I told myself all I was going to do was write one line
00:40:59
Speaker
And I'll tell you that was transformational because I started off I have so many I probably have 20 or 30 journals that only have two or three pages of writing in them because I didn't even I wanted to buy a new journal to start over because I couldn't even write you know
00:41:18
Speaker
So, but once I allowed myself to only write one line, three things, three things for which I'm grateful and one line, that's it. I'll tell you, it's so much more manageable because it's really only, you know, a couple minutes.
00:41:34
Speaker
And it kind of gets at that perfectionism in a way, but I think that it can be crippling. And that's why in the beginning of the podcast, that's why I started with just my admiration for what you do because I remember we were talking once over coffee and you were saying that about your writing and
00:41:55
Speaker
And at the time I was writing as well. But then in the years since, I mean, you've kept on with blogs, you've kept on with the podcasts, you've kept going. And I think that really a huge part of writing or just our spiritual journey is doing our best to just try and keep going in some way, right?
00:42:22
Speaker
like, at a standstill with writing, you know, making a voice recording, or, you know, writing a couple things in a note notes app, like something like that. But what I also learned too, is some of the reason why some of us can't do that is because we also need to attend to things like
00:42:42
Speaker
anxiety or depression or something like that because I know that a lot of times those things also can be real like real reasons why we're not doing something right which which need to attention to get rid of that log jam.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I think for me, what I always have explained to my spiritual director is that writing is my way
Writing as Prayer and Ministry
00:43:06
Speaker
of prayer. And for a long time, I felt like that was the wrong way to pray because not only do I write things down, but I share them with other people almost immediately. Right. And I've
00:43:15
Speaker
I've had some spiritual mentors say, no, no, you're just supposed to like chain of consciousness, write things down and keep it between you and God, or you're supposed to just sit in silence and not write anything yet. And that's just not how God communicates with me or how I communicate with God. And I think learning about Ignatian spirituality, having conversations like this has reminded me that God speaks to each of us as God has made us.
00:43:42
Speaker
unique and individually. And so for me, that's the way that God speaks to me. And my spiritual director asked once, well, what about the sharing part of it? And I was like, because I don't understand what God's trying to tell me until I put it out there and have either someone respond to it or just I see those words out there and then come back to him later and think, oh, that's what God was trying to tell me. Or that's what God wanted me to tell someone else, but I didn't have the vocal words to say it.
00:44:11
Speaker
Definitely. And I, and I feel like one other thing is if you have gotten, if you ever received feedback from one person that says that an insight that you shared helped clarify something for them or that they appreciated something you wrote in many ways, that's, that's ministry work that, I mean, that is in some ways. So, you know, I think wrestling with how it fits in your prayer life is, is important as well. But.
00:44:39
Speaker
I think it in another way is it's part of your ministry so. I think that's the good way to kind of decipher whether it's healthy or not is.
00:44:58
Speaker
of what service or help or assistance is it? If it's just self-serving, well, then yeah, maybe there's something to attend to. But I'm sure you've received notes and whatnot, or someone just stopping you and saying they appreciate it. And I mean, you have no idea the ripple effects of that. And that's what I think a lot of writers, a lot of people kind of underestimate is there's probably someone out there who also hasn't said anything, but it has had an impact.
St. Ignatius' Influence and Human Connection
00:45:27
Speaker
You know, so Yeah, I think about how uh, st. Ignatius wanted to be a knight and have instant glory and instant like people Telling him how great he was and he ended up the greatest works of his life He probably didn't even know how great they were right? He died and 500 years later. We're still talking about Of course, I believe st. Ignatius knows now, you know from from where he sits in heaven, but I feel like
00:45:55
Speaker
Sometimes we don't know, but we have to go forth in faith and say, well, I think there's a reason why God's asking me to do this, even if I don't see the fruits of it, which can be complicated when you talk about algorithms and how to reach more people. And do you have enough likes and are enough people following you? And when you let that get in the way, then you can stop messaging. Be like, well, the work isn't
00:46:19
Speaker
worth it because nobody's listening to it. Well, that's not necessarily true. Even if one person's listening to it, maybe the work is worth it. Well, and just to be vulnerable for a minute, I went back and listened to a lot of the other interviews that you had. And I will say for a part of it, I think a lot of it is on the hearer
00:46:41
Speaker
A lot of it is on the person who's receiving you know i think oftentimes the creator puts a lot of the writer puts a lot of emphasis on like is this worthy of you know but i think often times it's on the here so for example.
00:46:56
Speaker
when i listen to some of your episodes but i wasn't in the right place then you know i might not have received from what people were saying in the same way whereas i read there is one episode i listen to where i was really present and i was trying to say like okay.
00:47:15
Speaker
you know what is it that god is trying to tell me through this episode and i clean so much from it so it's not even like. There's one guest or one insight that's better or worse or what not it's about cuz i was worried you know this the other wonderful people.
00:47:34
Speaker
they've interviewed but really what it comes down to is more of the disposition that we have to accepting and embracing new insights you know so.
00:47:51
Speaker
That but i think often times the writer of the creator puts too much pressure on themselves. When really all your responsibility our responsibility is is to be honest and truthful and then and have faith that it has value.
00:48:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's about stories. It's about real life human experience. It's about maybe my prayer and my understanding of who I am and my imperfection. Maybe it'll help you understand who you are, even if your life is different than mine. Yeah. So you talked about how journaling and in that box are helping you remember your belovedness. Are there any ways that you try to help others remember their belovedness?
00:48:39
Speaker
My greatest gift I believe that God has blessed me with is the ability to start with a fresh slate and interactions with people. That's how I feel like I best
00:48:57
Speaker
communicate that love is to start with a fresh slate. And that doesn't mean that there's something this person did in the past that I have absolved them or that I've, you know, moved on. Really what it means is I'm actually starting as if I'm meeting the person for the first time.
00:49:20
Speaker
So a fresh slate, meaning knowing that this interaction is going to be how this person measures their partly maybe a little bit of their value. So if your face lights up when you see somebody,
00:49:38
Speaker
or if you go out of your way to say hello, or actually pay attention when people are speaking and asking follow-up questions, or just being joyful and enthusiastic to see someone. That's the fresh slate. It's almost treating people like you haven't seen them for a few months. I feel like that's kind of how I
00:50:02
Speaker
I try and interact in the world and also just being very grateful for small things. So I think that's really a way. The other I think is I do my best to express the patience that God has had with me.
00:50:22
Speaker
with other people so i'll give it a perfect example there was somebody that i know that a lot of people had written off as a friend who was just like very much to himself and it was a lot long time ago but i'll never forget like.
00:50:44
Speaker
I was like, well, what if what if we're all wrong? And like, like, what if what if it's something that we're doing that maybe needs attention?
Modern Challenges and Faith-Driven Resilience
00:50:52
Speaker
And, you know, so I think I'm always reflecting on like, is there something that I'm doing that might might be kind of
00:50:59
Speaker
leading to this divide or whatnot. So yeah, I think those are a couple ways. Yeah, those are a couple ways. I'm very much an encourager. One of the gifts of the spirit, you know, that your joy and just encouragement has been a big part of the way that God has interacted with me.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah, I like what you said about giving people a clean slate, but also giving people an opportunity to show you who they really are. So Ignatius always says we need to meet people where they are and as they are. And sometimes I think that's hard to do when we prejudge someone that might be
00:51:38
Speaker
More introverted in their personality or just be neurodivergent or just completely different than we are and we just think that their reaction has to be what we would have done in that situation and so I like that you have the opportunity to open your mind and heart to say well maybe
00:51:56
Speaker
there's something i can do differently and interacting with this person to really get at the heart of who they are and so we internalize or i internalize often so much about how i'm received that you know it when i get rid of that and i give people some you know
00:52:14
Speaker
Maybe someone was in a car accident that morning. Maybe someone, like you said, just processes differently or just found out some difficult news. Like one text can change your whole mood. So I think giving people that grace and also recognizing how much we project on situations, I think is really important.
00:52:41
Speaker
Do you think there's anything in particular that's challenging for people in 2023 to understand their belovedness in today's time with all the distractions and things we have? Is there anything that kind of gets in the way? Definitely. I think, well, the obvious one is internet addiction. I think that really, and that's something that I've just been thinking about a lot, quiet moments. Am I turning to my phone for comfort or whatnot rather than just thinking or being? I think that that's really big.
00:53:11
Speaker
Another is, and I think we've talked about it a lot, is just
00:53:20
Speaker
how quickly we might write each other off. And I think that how quickly we might write ourselves off. And if we were to just be a bit more patient and really just a little more understanding, I think society accepts some things with open arms and then others is so quick.
00:53:47
Speaker
to dismiss, like think about leadership, right? We have some people who they'll be, they'll get in trouble in some way, whether it's, you know, fraud or something like that. And, and, you know, people will say, Okay, yeah. And then maybe there's, there's one other, you know, way that they'll get in trouble. And people will really come down on that person. And
00:54:09
Speaker
I mean, they're both failures of leadership, right? You know, but some things were more taller, we tolerate more than than others. And so I think if we were to apply that to ourselves, you know, a good example would be we might be really hard on ourselves for an interaction that we had, or I might be very hard on myself for an interaction I had with somebody.
00:54:34
Speaker
But me talking negatively to myself for a half an hour, I don't value that as really that big of a deal. Well, actually, that's a huge deal. So I think that gets in the way a lot. And I guess one last thing is if I was not instructed in the way that I was when it comes to my faith, my religious education,
00:54:59
Speaker
my faith-driven formation, I would be lost. So compassionate, thoughtful, caring, and smart people that are in positions that can introduce an influence in a positive way to a resurrected life are so important. And I've had examples
00:55:27
Speaker
Like I've discussed my grandmother, my wife, and just so many people in my family, so many people in my life that have really raised me in my faith that
00:55:41
Speaker
I can navigate those obstacles because I have that foundation. So if somebody isn't Catholic or if somebody isn't religious or doesn't believe in God, can they still navigate life's challenges? Absolutely. I'm sure. But it's very difficult when you don't have, and I think
00:56:02
Speaker
Oftentimes when a student will say, I don't believe in God, I don't meet them with saying, oh, you're wrong. What I'll say is what is it that you do believe in?
00:56:12
Speaker
And then kind of, if they can establish a foundation, you know, like a mangrove tree, right? You know, with roots in a hurricane or in a storm, you know, then you can navigate life appropriately from there. But without that foundation, I do think it's very difficult because then, you know, we're kind of subject to the whims of what people say to us or what the world might be saying to us.
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that you went through the Ignatian seminars like I did. And I don't know if when you did it, they talked about spiritual conversation, but that practice of being able to prayerfully consider whatever is on the table, whatever the question is, the conversation, to be able to listen to each person respond without responding yourself. And then to be able to again, prayerfully consider what you heard.
00:57:06
Speaker
before you go and respond to it. I think those are the things that might be missing in some of our quicker conversations that we have in today's time where we don't give that intentional pause.
Podcast Wrap-Up and Reflections
00:57:17
Speaker
We aren't able to fully listen to the person in front of us and then give another intentional pause. And so the more that we can model that type of conversation in all things and decisions, but in difficult conversations, in even our own interactions,
00:57:33
Speaker
with ourselves, like, kind of giving ourselves that understanding of I need to pause and think about my response, but not for 30 minutes of braiding, but really think of, like, why am I, you know, focused? Definitely. And I completely agree. I love that spiritual conversation model. And that's such a great point. Well, Brendan, I want to be cognizant of your time, because I know you have a lot of things going on. And I'm so grateful that you spent this hour with
00:57:57
Speaker
with me having this conversation, and I know it won't be the last conversation we have, but thank you again for giving of your time to my listeners, and I really appreciate your insights, and I will definitely tell them where to find you. And you have a blog that you write on sometimes, and I know I'm gonna encourage you to continue to write on it because your insights are so great for people to listen to. Well, thank you so much. It's been a joy, and I really appreciate your ministry, and just thanks for all you do, Gretchen. Thank you so much, Brendan.
00:59:01
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Brendan as much as I did. I loved how easy the conversation flowed as we discussed what it means to really live into the unique person we each feel we are called to be. These conversations are bringing me such life and I can't wait to share even more of them with you.
00:59:18
Speaker
I think you'll notice that I'm trying to get a variety of perspectives and experiences on this podcast, including both Catholic and non-Catholic, Ignatian and other forms of spiritual practice as well. If you think you or someone you know has a story to share in this podcast, please email me at loved as you are pod at gmail.com.
00:59:36
Speaker
And if you like this podcast, subscribe and leave a review. I'd love to have your feedback and be able to continue to move this podcast in a direction that is valuable for you. You can also follow everything related to this podcast at Love Does You Are Pod on Instagram and at GretchenCrouder.com slash Love Does You Are podcast. Links to both are in the show notes. Thank you for joining me today. And until next time, remember to be who you are because that's exactly who God wants you to be.