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The American Craftsman Podcast Ep. 31 | Iron Chef Woodworking
41 Plays4 years ago
On Episode 31 of The American Craftsman Podcast, hosted by Greene Street Joinery, we talk about efficiency.
Beer of the Week (Kitsune Brewing Co. Under The Moon): https://untappd.com/b/kitsune-brewing-company-under-the-moon/4222013
Tool of the Week: (Bessey 7x16 F-Clamp) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002245K/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=greenestreetj-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B00002245K&linkId=fa565f2e38b52e6accef95c6a51f7507
Greene Street Joinery is a custom design & build shop located in Monmouth County, New Jersey. We build multigenerational furniture with an eco-friendly and sustainable mindset.
Inspired and guided by the ideals of the Arts and Crafts movement, we believe in the use of traditional craftsmanship and simple, well-proportioned forms; sustainability and ethical practices; and importantly, taking pleasure in our work as craftsmen to create quality pieces of enduring value.
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Transcript
Introduction and Weather Chat
00:00:17
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a chain All right, welcome one and all episode 31 of the American craftsman podcast 3-1. Yeah big 31 Got it going for you this week. I think yeah, we got a couple of nice features. Yeah So yeah, we're getting in the spring here warming up a little bit we got a
00:00:44
Speaker
66 it's going to be today, which is nice. Yeah. You Northeastern is no. Well, I guess the Midwesterners, they're not getting spring yet. Are they in the Midwest? You know, the Midwest is weird. It gets real hot and it gets real cold. Yeah. Yeah. But they get those much rougher winters than we do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was 29 last week here, though. So yeah. Yeah. Not happening fast. Not fast enough.
Beer of the Week - Kitsune Brewing
00:01:15
Speaker
We got a speciality for the Bureau of the Week. Yeah. So, um, our buddy Sean, uh, made with Marx, I believe is his Instagram. Let me just double check that he's, so he's out in Arizona. Um, and his buddy owns a brewery.
00:01:33
Speaker
Yes, Made with Mark Shawmarks. His buddy owns a brewery and we were talking about it on Clubhouse a little bit and I said, hey listen, I'm going to send you a couple of beer glasses, send us a couple of beers, we'll try them out on the podcast. So the brewery is Kitsune Brewing Company.
00:01:55
Speaker
And the beer that he sent us is called Under the Moon. It's an American IPA. And actually I pulled up a little blurb about it on Untapped, which if you're a beer drinker, Untapped is sort of this. I guess it's an app now, but originally started out as just like a website where people could share reviews of different beers.
00:02:17
Speaker
It says, Simco, this wonderfully bitter and fruity IPA is our step into some classic beers. This American IPA is a light, roasty tan color that offers wonderful citrus notes, smooth tasting, and hot bite that will resonate through the night. At 6.9%, feel free to grab another and enjoy the night. I don't know about you, 6.9. I'm good for about one at this point. It's the middle of the work day here for us. Yeah.
00:02:47
Speaker
It says drink fresh in a wide mouth glass and store cold.
Podcast Format and Tools Discussion
00:02:51
Speaker
Brewed and canned by Simple Machine Brewing Company. So that's a thing that a lot of breweries do. You know, the infrastructure to can beer is and to brew beer, it's expensive. So a lot of brewers are collaborating with other breweries and actually brewing and canning or bottling their beer at existing breweries.
00:03:16
Speaker
Oh yeah, it's got some, definitely some ice going on in there. Oh yeah, we got these a little too cold. Oh wow. Had to give my can a little bit of a squeeze. Yeah, gonna have to let this sit for a bit before drinking it.
00:03:45
Speaker
Definitely not advisable to get your beers as cold. I'm gonna go get some paper towels. Oh, yeah. Stem the flow. Oh, I'm overflowing too. Yeah. Well, we botched this review, huh? Anywho. We got just a little bit too cold. We'll, uh...
00:04:17
Speaker
Can we take that out in the editing room? No. That's the beauty of this podcast. There is there is no post editing whatsoever. You get all of our screw ups. Yeah. Look at yours. Yours is coming up over way over up over the top. Yeah. So we'll we'll leave these beers this side for now. We'll let them get up to temperature and then give it a try. Yeah. Yeah. Don't freeze your beers out there, folks.
00:04:47
Speaker
It was the paper towel trick that did us in. Yeah. Yeah. Usually we have a problem with the beer being too warm.
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, you want to jump into the tool of the week? Yeah, definitely. So, you know, we've been going for 30 weeks. That's a lot of tools that we keep thinking we're going to run out of tools to do for a tool of the week. But it only takes a little, you know, scan around the shop to see that there's stuff here we haven't spoken of and are really useful.
00:05:24
Speaker
One of those things is this Bessie Deep Reach Clamp. So it's an F-style clamp. They call it a deep reach clamp. So it got nearly a seven inch throat on it and it opens up to about 16 inches. Nice. And this is one of those clamps. We're lucky to have just two of them. Most people don't have them because they're like 50, 60 bucks each depending on where you find them. And they're heavy and a little unwieldy but
00:05:52
Speaker
This is the kind of clamp that when you need it, there's really no other clamp that's in the shop that's going to do the job. And
00:06:05
Speaker
Maybe once every single project that thing comes out. Oh, yeah. And go. There's nothing else that will do it. I mean, I guess you could we could cobble together some stuff and sometimes calls or what have you. But the simplicity of that and being able to reach in and go over and around something.
00:06:27
Speaker
Uh, so I would say if you, you spot one like at a, like a sale company, you know, like clearing out some of their old stuff, that's how I got mine. I think I paid about 20 bucks for them.
00:06:42
Speaker
And I can't. I'm over here trying to pour the beer into the glass and not cooperating. Yeah. Yeah. If you see any Bessie clamps for sale at any type of yard sale or just buy once. Yeah. Just buy them. Yeah. Where those really shine are for work holding because you can get deep onto like a table or a bench and get towards the center of a work piece.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't even think of that. We use it for that all the time. Yeah. Yeah. That and their brutes. I mean, they're, they're strong. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of power in them. I don't know. I tried looking up to see what the force was. I know like a regular Bessie, um, like the K-bodies, whether they're about 1500 or... No, I think they're only 300. 300? Yeah. You sure? Wow. So these I bet are stronger than one of those K-bodies. Yeah.
00:07:33
Speaker
yeah let me see if I can find it yeah so if you see them around and and even if you don't you know find them used might be something to think about you know throwing into the budget for your next job oh yeah they definitely come in handy yeah pick up two it's always good to have a pair hundred bucks
00:08:02
Speaker
What do you find in there on the old interweb?
Beer Tasting Tips and Listener Interaction
00:08:05
Speaker
This says that the K buddies are rated at 1700. 1700. I just read 300 somewhere else. I don't know if we're getting marketing wank from Bessie or... That's the metric conversion. Yeah, what I read was BS. Man, I want that beer.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's getting there. Yeah. Let's see. Look up to Bessie. If anybody knows, anybody has some definitive answer. Bessie, deep. Feel free to share it with the crowd.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, maybe too late by that point, but considering this is what we call this tape delay officially. Yeah, this is a pre-recorded program. That's right. So all the laughter you hear is is added in after the fact with a laugh track. They have these. Our buddy Craig over at Simon Mills has a couple of these 24 inch by 20 inch deep. Oh, yeah. Those I'd like to get a couple of. Those are crazy.
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah, when I saw these I figured I would never have a use for them. But I bought them anyway and now I know better.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah. Like these are like $270 clamps. Oh, those twenties. The 24th 20. Yeah. 24 by 20. Yeah. Well, anyway, can't find it. So I want to date you with the more strong enough. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's wood. So you can only, the strength only goes.
00:09:53
Speaker
So far, we're not bending pieces of steel here, so even 300 pounds would be more than enough. If your glue ups aren't closing at 300 pounds, you've got a problem. Back to the joint. Buy a new jointer or get a jointer. That's right. So what do you think? I think we could take a sip of this beer, no? Yeah. Yeah. Cheers. Look at that.
00:10:21
Speaker
Was that a piece of ice that just fell to yours? Yeah. Oh my god. What do you think? It's good. It's too- way too cold right now. I think this is a farce for us. Yeah, it is. I see. Yeah, there was a bunch of ice on the bottom of the glass. Yeah, you don't want to drink your beer.
00:10:52
Speaker
at freezing temperatures. It's like. If you're cooking. And you're tasting. You don't want to see something that's going to be hot, you don't want to season it when it's cold. It's going to be overseasoned when you heat it up. That's right. Well, well. Tip from the. Kitchen, the gourmands.
00:11:25
Speaker
I tell you. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. We like the guest, the guest beer of the week. Yeah. If anybody, we're not still listening here, but you'd like us to try a beer. You know somebody with a brewery or you brew your own beer or whatever. Hit us up. We'll try your beer. Yeah.
Patreon Live Stream Announcement
00:11:44
Speaker
We're not quite shameless hucksters.
00:11:46
Speaker
No, no, I don't mind buying the beer, but that's why every week we go out and we buy the stuff, all the tools that we promote on our tool week we've bought with our own money. Well, no, I'm just interested in trying other people's beer.
00:12:01
Speaker
So before we get into questions, I wanted to mention we talked about it I think briefly last week. So this coming Wednesday, a week from today, it's April 14th at 1 p.m. Eastern time. We'll be doing the first of a series of things that we'll be doing. We haven't decided yet if it'll be like bimonthly or quarterly or monthly. We don't know yet.
00:12:28
Speaker
So this is going to be our pricing and prefabrication protocol live stream. Kitsuni is just messaging me back live stream. This is for Patreon patrons only. So if you're interested, you can head over to our Patreon and and join to get access to these live streams. So we have we have a three dollar tier, a five dollar tier and a ten dollar tier.
00:12:54
Speaker
and any of the three are get entry into the live streams. So we'll be going over how to interact with clients from the very beginning, the first interaction, how to price a job, how to present your bid, and we'll be providing the documents that we use that Rob has created over the last 20 years and that we use to streamline this whole process. Right, how to price a job and
00:13:23
Speaker
present it you know and to do it without taking a lot of time that's the biggest thing you don't make money by bidding jobs no and you know we're gonna talk about how to vet a client how to how to know if it's even worth your time to get into getting a price to this person right right yeah there's all those details but the the efficiency is really part of this whole process
00:13:47
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. And, you know, in future ones, I'm sure we'll be getting into design and different types of fabrication, all kinds of stuff like that. So yeah, based on the interaction we've had with our patrons and just the general listeners of the podcast, we're going to tackle some topics. Yep.
Listener Q&A - Woodworking Challenges
00:14:09
Speaker
Also, you want to get into the questions. I took a look at this first question here. And this might be the question of of all time for us. Right. It's a good one. It is a good one. So I and chef would working Frank Lloyd writes your judge.
00:14:28
Speaker
What main course are you making? Cheers. That's from Low Country Modern on Instagram. Yeah, they've always got good questions. Everybody knows what Iron Chef is, right? Yeah, I would hope so. If not, just look it up. But I would say the first thing that popped into my head was like some kind of light fixture.
00:14:52
Speaker
Something that has glass and has, uh, you know, some divided lights. So that's kind of the angle I'm going. Yeah. I was thinking, I don't know why initially I thought of something we'd done already. And one of the things that popped into my head was that, uh, that bench, uh, slash file draw that we made for Cheryl Parker.
00:15:19
Speaker
That's at the top of our staircase. Remember with the curve. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Walnut. Yeah. Well, that wasn't a bench at all. Well, yeah, you sit. You could sit on top of it.
00:15:31
Speaker
No, it was like 36 inches high. Are you sure? Yeah, I had three drawers. Yeah, I guess I don't really remember it that well then. You know, why I was thinking was because he was big into, you know, integrating into the house and for the person. And that was something that we had kind of free reign with who just said, told, it's going to go up here.
00:15:56
Speaker
I wanted to blend in with this office set, which by coincidence I'd made a long time ago before we were partners. So we had, there was a lot of integration going on, which is big. And, um, you know, we tried to suit her personality as well as, uh, mixing the form and the function really well. That was a cool piece.
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. I sat in the house for a while and everybody that came into the house wanted it. Yeah. We showed that off to a couple of people. We're like, all right, you got to go inside Rob's house to see this thing. Because, yeah, she was out of town for quite some time. That's right. Out of state over in Arizona.
00:16:37
Speaker
But I like your idea. I mean, those those stained glass patterns and all that stuff. That's we have that book in there where it's it's sort of like a bucket list kind of item to get to work on something.
Craftsmanship and Design Inspirations
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, now that we have sort of a connection with the is it Manhattan glass, Manhattan stained glass. Yeah. That for this Dutch door, we know a guy that does this work. Yeah. And actually did a original a
00:17:07
Speaker
refurb, I guess you would say, on a an actual Frank Lloyd piece, stained glass. So we could we could actually work something into one of our designs. Yeah. And he could execute the stained glass portion of it. Yeah, that'd be cool.
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I like the idea of something small scale, you know, working on something a little smaller, more delicate and being able to focus more energy on it just because of the, you know, with size limitations, like bigger things just take more time and hair so that you have if you're under a certain time constraint, you can you can't put as much focus onto it.
00:17:46
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, imagine if we got to make one chair. Or something like that. But we're always making these big pieces that take a lot of material, a lot of time. Yeah. And a lot of like sanding, finishing all the stuff that people consider not too glamorous. Yeah, I mean, something like that. You could literally plane it all. Whereas
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah, we got to get the machine. Yeah, a two by four by eight foot tall cabinet with multiple parts and pieces. Yeah. Ain't nobody paying for a hand plane finish on that. No, no, we got we have to, you know, rely on our machinery. Save time. So.
00:18:30
Speaker
That was a that was a great question just because they got us a thinking. Yeah. You know, and like what's Frank Lloyd Wright's criteria and everything, you know, because we're all fans, whether we even know it or not. Everybody out there who does some sort of.
00:18:47
Speaker
Kraft is probably a fan of Frank Lloyd Wright or one of his disciples because of all the work he did in the 20th century. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like music. You know, you can't be a fan of Metallica and not realize that Black Sabbath directly. Right. Something to that effect. I'm sure there's a better analogy there. Right. And they were influenced by, you know, some of the blues guys and stuff.
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah. Know what your what your house is built on. Yeah. That's it. Flip the question. If you were cooking for Frank Frank Wood, right. What are you going to make him?
00:19:29
Speaker
I'd had to bust out some of my, you know, my twists on old family cuisine, Italian stuff. Even though my roots are in Sicily, there's like a real northern Italian dish that I love to make and eat. It's creamy polenta.
00:19:50
Speaker
And I love to then finish it in the broiler with like some nice mushrooms on top, like, you know, a field mushroom, not cremini, like a porcini or something. It's got a little bit more earthiness to it. No, like those nice white button mushrooms. No, no. Yeah. Because, you know, you're just like using it as like a tasty, almost garnish. Yeah. But I love that.
00:20:21
Speaker
We love nice salad and roasted vegetables. Maybe some chicken in the oven, you know, as we call it. Yeah, see, I cook so like off the cuff all the time. I'm not a recipe user. I reference recipes, but I don't cook from recipes. So a lot of times I'm just working with what I have.
00:20:44
Speaker
I actually I get like anxiety trying to like think of something like like to if I got people coming over to think about what I want to make and and going to the store and buying it gives me total anxiety because I just I get like you're a really good cook analysis paralysis.
Cleaning and Shop Maintenance
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, like I'm better off just like saying, all right, I got this in the freezer. I got this in here and just making something.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's funny. You know, we all we're all weird. I probably do go on that chop show. Right. No time to think. Just execute. It's like, all right. These are what this is what you got. I'm like, all right. I can figure that out. That was good. All right. Got a question here from our buddy Andy, one of our patrons. What do you guys use to clean your workspace? An air hose, broom or not at all?
00:21:33
Speaker
I wish it was the last one. Yeah, we'd have dust to the ceiling. But I mean, we use the air hose minimally because it just kind of spreads the dust and puts it in the air like vacuum. We like brooms. What we really, really like is have somebody else do it.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah, we would like that. That's been a long, unfulfilling saga in the last five years or so.
00:22:09
Speaker
I'll digress a bit and say I was lucky enough for about 10 years to have these two kids that were brothers that one followed the other through my shop and they used to come like every other day sometimes more
00:22:27
Speaker
They come in after school. They ride their bike over because they started when they were in junior high. They come over and after some training, they were just self-propelled. They would drag all the mats out. They would clean everything like they vacuum all the machines. They put all the tools away. It was awesome. Awesome.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah, now we're relegated to cleaning ourselves. A bunch of bums. We've tried, right? We've tried to get a few. Yeah.
00:23:00
Speaker
It's not that we haven't run across a few kids that were willing, just not able. Yeah. And, you know, to be fair, we didn't spend a lot of time training them. We kind of figured, you know, sweep up, clean up, dust up. But it's it's a new breed out there that we're not tuned into. Yeah, I think
00:23:30
Speaker
It's like like if if it was me and it was my first day and I was a kid like you would have walked in the next day and been happy. I think it's that you know these kids literally just don't know. No. Like the bar has been set so low that they just don't know what's acceptable and what's not right. What a shop should look like when it's cleaned up. Yeah.
00:23:54
Speaker
But you can't just leave big patches of uncleaned area next to a clean area. Yeah, like just look around and clean up the mess. I mean, it's not rocket science. If you see dust and wood chips and debris, clean it up. Yeah, it's not like, oh, I see some stuff over there, but that's probably fine. Yeah. No, no, get it all.
00:24:19
Speaker
I want to clean it all up. Yeah, so that's our dream. That's our dream. We got another another couple of kids in here after school and self motivated because we were good payers. Uncle Sam, if you're listening, they'll be 1099. Don't worry.
00:24:39
Speaker
You know, we weren't cheap about it. We were and we were good bosses. We we got the nice sound system. We let the music, you know, ring out as terrible as whatever they're listening to. Yeah. Oh, so that's it. We use mostly broom and vacuum. Yeah. Yeah. Like my benchtop. I like to vacuum out the tool tray every now and then. And
00:25:04
Speaker
Blower is used mostly just to blow off work pieces before they get finished. Yeah, dust. Or, you know, when you get dust packed into like a little edge, something like that. But yeah, barroom and a dustpan. Yeah, the old school way. It's nice and quiet. Sometimes it's meditative or meditative. What would you say? Meditative, I think. Meditative.
00:25:26
Speaker
Just push that broom around. Yeah, and you got to be gentle with the broom. Otherwise, you might as well just blow, use the blower because you're just putting dust in the air. That used to piss me off. People on job sites were going too rough with the broom. I'm like, dude, and you got to knock the broom out every couple of swipes. They didn't have the green dust, obviously, which was now in New York. That's that's on all the union jobs, those barrels of green dust.
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, isn't that some kind of wood? I don't know what it's composed of, but it it waits down the dust. You know, you'd spread it out and it comes red, too. I know, but it's still called green dust. I mean, it's very effective because, you know, we used to put down masonite over all the floors in New York. Right. And tape off all the joints. So it was easy to sweep up if you put that stuff down.
00:26:23
Speaker
Uline sells it in a 300 pound drum. Yeah. For a hundred bucks. Yeah. So you know it can't be too much. Controls dirt and dust without leaving an oily residue. Doesn't say what it is. Green sweep. Well, if it's 300 pounds for a hundred dollars. Green dust. Yeah. Sweeping compound, 70 pound drum top grade. What are you? What is green dust?
00:26:59
Speaker
Doesn't say. I see. Yeah. Does anyone out there use green dust? Yeah. Usually places like warehouses, you know, that's what it says. Recommended for warehouse manufacturing and construction site cleanup. Yeah. Yeah. Sweeping compounds. Let me search that. Yeah. Well, I mean, what's in it that keeps the dust down? I mean, I, I could, it feels.
00:27:25
Speaker
moist, but it's not wet. You know what I mean? That kind of like it feels like if you squeezed it together, it would stick to itself, but it doesn't. So this is ZEP sweeping compound. Made with renewable oils designed to hold down dust on floors while sweeping, compound adheres to dust particles, making them easier to be removed.
00:27:55
Speaker
Hmm. Whereas green dust said it was non oily or not no oil. Is there is there a distinction there? This is controls dirt and dust without leaving an oily residue. Mm hmm. It doesn't say no oil. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't it doesn't leave any residue on that. I know.
00:28:20
Speaker
I've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. I've used plenty of green dust on my day. Sadly. Back to the topic at hand. Yeah. All right. So, oh man, look at this next
Epoxy Tables - Trends vs. Craftsmanship
00:28:39
Speaker
question. This is like low hanging fruit, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. We're going to hurt some feelings on this one probably.
00:28:47
Speaker
Are we going to let it fly on this or are we going to sugarcoat it? Use your discretion. OK, this is from one of our patrons, Connor, with a K. What's the rub on epoxy tables? People seem to either love them or hate them.
00:29:06
Speaker
Well, well, Connor, for us, it's a an aesthetic thing. It's an environmental thing. I just don't like the look of it. It's very unnatural to me. I'm I'm I prefer the more organic looking and simpler, not so sort of bright and in your face, the neon.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah, even if it was like a black or a white epoxy, it's just it's artificial to me. I'm a big fan of like Nakashima, who has a very natural and organic sort of look to his stuff. So, yeah, for those reasons, I don't like it. I don't like the fact that it's a petroleum product. I know there's eco epoxy, which is plant based, blah, blah, blah. It's plastic at the end of the day. I don't care what it's made out of. I don't I don't need plastic in my wood.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah. But the river table, you know, if it's blue, that's kind of simulates a stream, doesn't it? Isn't that the whole not really? Isn't that natural? Streams are clear. Not in the cartoons. These people are living in a cartoon world.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah, there's something about the river table, the epoxy table, and now the epoxy, anything. Yeah, there's a lot of epoxy stuff. That kind of, for the most part, rubs, woodworkers the wrong way. The stuff that's only epoxy, I'm fine with that. Yeah. Because that's, you're working with, that's what you do. You work with epoxy, but don't put it with the wood. Right. Why are we offended?
00:30:57
Speaker
Really? Why are we offended by this addition of epoxy into a slab of wood? I think it's just a mishmash. They don't go together. Yeah. Is there something deeper?
00:31:12
Speaker
I mean, well, of course there probably is. You want to get into the Freudian reasons? I'm going to say it affects me before I even get down to the Freud level. There's some surface angst on my part, too. Yeah, I mean, it's been...
00:31:33
Speaker
I mean, a fad is also something that we don't really enjoy. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why we don't have any clients asking us to do anything with epoxy. Right. It's not a... Maybe I'm getting in over my head on this one. It's not a... I don't know. It's just distasteful to me.
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, you know, I don't want to put anybody off for and we're certainly, you know, fallible and and all those other things. But I think we've spent our lives developing these certain skill sets that kind of differentiate us from
00:32:27
Speaker
people that work with wood on the weekends or build decks or other things like that. Certainly there are skill sets that are needed to do those things that we don't have, but this is our milieu. This is what we do. We make furniture. We design furniture and build furniture.
00:32:51
Speaker
That's that's a small group of people who are capable of doing that. And we take great pride in that. So then comes this fad where basically anyone could lay two pieces of wood together or some epoxy over it and get a certain amount of acclaim for this. And it offends us on some levels. Yeah. Right. And I think that's pretty much it. Yeah.
00:33:21
Speaker
Because the layman is going to go, wow, they built a table and we're in our hearts going, no, they didn't build the table. They glued two pieces of rough wood together with epoxy and stuck it on metal legs. Yeah.
00:33:37
Speaker
don't mix them up
00:33:55
Speaker
Like there's only so much conversation going on about woodworking. Right. And this kind of stuff has consumed such a large portion of it that. It's sucking the air out of the room. Running out of things to talk about. I got nobody to talk about this with because everybody else is talking about these things that aren't interesting or relevant to what we do. So I think that's a big part of it for me is something that I find so uninteresting is such a large part of the woodworking conversation these days.
00:34:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's it's readily accessible for beginners and people who don't have a lot of experience, space, tooling, what have you. Yeah, I mean, I will say to do it at a high level, it does do anything at a high level as an art. Yeah, it does. And it takes skill and and a lot of know how because you have to flatten this thing and you have to polish it so that the epoxy doesn't look like shit.
00:34:51
Speaker
So it's not to say that there's not people that have a lot of skill that are doing it, but it's just open the door to a lot of amateurism. Yeah, yeah. And and that's like there in what we do, there is no amateurism. And it's fine to be an amateur, but it just when it
00:35:11
Speaker
I don't know. Well, I think because the general public lumps us all together. Right. It's not the folks that are actually doing the epoxy. It's it's that, you know, you run into somebody in the supermarket and go, oh, yeah. Oh, you make furniture. Yeah. You know, like those like those tables. Oh, I love those tables with the and you just want to strangle them.
00:35:37
Speaker
Yeah. No, no, not like that. I had to develop skills over a 20 year time period to build this table. Right. Yeah. There's comp, you know, there's joinery that dates back 500 years in your techniques that have been, you know, for half a millennia.
00:35:58
Speaker
So so there's that, you know, some of its petty, some of its envy and jealousy and all those ugly things we don't like to admit that we have in us. But they're there nonetheless. Yeah, we're known to be a little petty. That's right.
Marketing Strategies - Word of Mouth vs. Ads
00:36:17
Speaker
For those who are long, long standing listeners, you'll notice there was no petty gripe of the week because for the time. Yeah, we have plenty of petty gripes and, you know, it was, it was kind of fun at first, but, um,
00:36:32
Speaker
We kind of put it off on the shelf for now. It'll probably reemerge at some time, make a guest slot appearance. And once we get to having our our guests back, we'll always give them the opportunity. And yeah, people relish to their petty grind. It's good to have a soapbox.
00:36:52
Speaker
So, yeah, don't let us deter you from making your epoxy tables. No, it's just our opinion. Yeah. Your experience and mileage may vary. And if you know me, if we interact like on social media, I'll bust your balls. Brad, I don't know if Brad, if you still listen, but he knows I messaged him when he's making an epoxy table. I bust his balls because. Yes, we have friends that use epoxy. Yeah, plenty of them.
00:37:21
Speaker
I got friends that like bad music and eat bad food and I'm not going to hold it against you. We're judgmental in a non-judgmental kind of way. Yeah. We want better for you. So I hope that answers the question. We got one here from Alex, another patron. What is your percentage of paid marketing versus word of mouth and has it changed over time?
00:37:48
Speaker
I think we touched on this a little bit last week. We really don't do any paid marketing. I'll promote a post on Instagram every now and then a couple of times a year, maybe half a dozen times, not for anything crazy. A couple of days, 50 bucks, something like that. But yeah, it's all word amounts. Yeah. I think this is the way it goes in this sort of thing. It's if we go back to the beginnings of this shop,
00:38:18
Speaker
I took out one ad one month in one of those magazines like Architectural Digest. I think it was I still remember it because it left a scar. It was sixty six hundred dollars. I think it was a is a quarter page ad.
00:38:36
Speaker
And when I tell you this is going to book me out for two years, the phone didn't ring for 29 days. And I wound up getting a job from it. I'm surprised I don't remember which job it was where it did wind up just breaking even like the profit from the job paid for the ad.
00:38:57
Speaker
But it probably shaved about three years off my life agonizing over that decision to do it. And then, you know, not getting any calls. This was back in the day where, you know, literally was waiting for the phone. Yeah. There was no social media or the Internet really wasn't the way people advertise their business. Sixty six dollars.
00:39:21
Speaker
They're probably giving those ads away now because who the hell is reading magazines? Exactly. You know, it's like, all right, this is the highbrow audience I need to reach. And oh, man. So that happened once. And that was a good 15, almost 20 years ago, probably, let's say. And never again. I learned my lesson.
00:39:44
Speaker
See, if we were to advertise, I'd be inclined to do it on something like Seastreak. So Seastreak is a high-speed ferry that goes from, they have two locations here, one in Highlands, one in Atlantic Highlands, and they go to Wall Street and Pier, I think it's Pier 11. So one goes right to Wall Street and one goes to Midtown.
00:40:03
Speaker
So all the people that are taking that it's not cheap. They got a good job Yeah, it's the it's the fastest easiest and most comfortable way to get to New York City For people that work that idea Yeah, well sixty six hundred for that magazine. You can only imagine what it probably is for them And that was a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah Well, I mean it was I guess it was probably I bet those ads like you said are much cheaper now Well ridership is down now too. I'm sure so
00:40:31
Speaker
Yeah, maybe we'll look into that. Yeah So 99.9% is the answer. Yeah word of mouth and Repeat business. Yeah, there's nothing better than a referral.
Building vs. Installing - Preferences and Challenges
00:40:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah People you know you're hoping that when that phone call comes with the referral they kind of know the price structure and things like that Yeah, you want them to say like oh, I got a guy, but he's not cheap
00:41:04
Speaker
that's exactly how they describe us they're good but they're not cheap well if they talk to my wife that's that's also the first thing she's gonna say yeah that's true
00:41:18
Speaker
Good for her. All right, Tom, one of our patrons. I love hearing from the page. We got Brian before that. Sorry. Sorry, Brian. Brian St. John Woodworks on Instagram installation preferences.
00:41:34
Speaker
build and install or build and have someone else install. Ah, it is but a dream. Yeah. Yeah. If we didn't have to install anything, we'd be happy as a clam. Yeah. If we never left the shop. Yeah, I hate installation. I was a kitchen installer for whatever was 18 months or so, almost two years. I just don't like doing installs. I don't. There's too much.
00:42:04
Speaker
Too much unknown how things are going to work out, what you're going to need. I'm always paranoid about not bringing enough stuff. So yeah, I'd rather just be here making stuff and somebody else install it. But then you run into the problem of having someone who can install it, who knows everything about all the moving parts. You know, it's so it's hard. I'd prefer to just build freestanding things that don't need to be installed.
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's I mean, that's a joy like this piece when it finally goes, even though it still has a little bit of work to do there. I mean, we're pushing it into place, but we're going to make sure that the plumbing's accessible and all that stuff. But
00:42:45
Speaker
yeah i get anxiety when i have to go somewhere and leave the shop and my comfy confines the bench everything's flat you know clamp here and you know cut there i don't like working in people's homes i remember when i would do kitchens.
00:43:06
Speaker
I would put one day at the front of the installation where I would have the moving company bring everything in. I would have everything placed and I'd kind of get a lay of the land, make sure everything's going to fit. And then I'd always have a day. I'd work there for two days and I'd tell them I'm going to go back to the shop for a day.
00:43:28
Speaker
because I wanted to have a day to like make little filler. I have to like scribe something. I want to bring it all back to the shop. So I used to spend, you know, five days doing a three day install because I didn't like it. You know, I didn't want to rush in there and try and make it happen.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's a problem with installs is you're either over prepared or under prepared and you have to. You have to make a compromise somewhere with something, whether it's the quality or the ease of the install because you got too much shit with you.
00:44:04
Speaker
Right. I mean, I would pack up the truck with every tool I had. And, you know, most of the time you didn't need much, but Jeff and I would be so happy if we just stayed here and just waved as the truck with the furniture and cabinets were just going down the road. Send the check. That's it.
00:44:28
Speaker
And, you know, maybe someday that's where we'll be. Yeah. Like I said, I'd love to do all stuff that that was not installed. Yeah. Freestanding pieces of furniture. I mean, there is a big obsession with the built in idea of built in, built in, built in.
00:44:46
Speaker
We really this last thing we did up in Easton that the the black modern stuff we had to talk them out of built in. Yeah. And for a couple of good reasons it shouldn't be built in. Right. Yeah. A lot of times that's a situation where it just doesn't make sense to be built in. But like also the idea of
00:45:07
Speaker
being able to take it with you. You're going to sink $15,000 into this little nook in the wall, and then you're going to move out. You're going to sell the house. You're not going to get it back. No, because the next person is going to probably tear it out anyway. And if you don't want it that long, then you're fucking with the wrong guys because call somebody else because we're going to build it to be there, you know. Yeah, for your kids. Yeah.
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah, they wanted that that modern and airy sort of look for us. I mean, these are big pieces over four feet wide and almost nine feet tall. Yeah. So to create that sleek and kind of.
00:45:51
Speaker
open look was the major hurdle. And they said, well, we want it built in so that, you know, it looks like it's par, like it's always been there. So this is where something like Sketchup or Fusion comes in handy.
00:46:08
Speaker
They said, all right, here it is drawn up. This is what it looks like. And then they got it. They said you may think it's going to look better, but it's not. No, you want that negative space around the piece. That's what really lends itself to this design. Whereas. Built in and makes it look very traditional, even with the same exact, you know, design elements. Yeah, you just put a cabinet wall to wall.
00:46:37
Speaker
Um, it looks like a cabinet wall to wall. Yeah. It looks like you changed the door profile. That's it. I mean, yeah. Um, so yeah, come on, man. Bring us bring us plenty of work.
Beer Feedback and Personal Anecdotes
00:46:50
Speaker
That's a standalone and enough work that we could hire a crew to go put this stuff in. Yeah. Yeah. So I got, I got a Kitsuni brewing on the, uh, on the water here. Oh yeah. Let's, they want to know how we're enjoying our brew.
00:47:06
Speaker
Well, I said I said to him earlier, I said, hey, we're we're going to drink the beer on today's episode. Any info you want us to share? He said it's a beautifully, slightly malted American IPA, great bitter and fruit flavors from the Simco Hops, such an easy drinking beer. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, the technical stuff, I'm not.
00:47:28
Speaker
is able to describe it that way, but it's good. It's good and easy drinking. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to see if we can like buy some beer and have them sent it to us. Yeah. Why not? I don't know what the rules and regulations are on that, but we'll find out.
00:47:49
Speaker
Uh, what do we got here? Ah, it's from our buddy, Tom McGuire, one of our patrons. He sent me a picture following this question. Ever run your good pencils through the laundry? I'm guessing that he has. Yeah. No, you know, my wife double checks everything and triple checks everything. And mostly the pencils stay in the bib. Yeah.
00:48:14
Speaker
But when I was an overall where the pencils were up there in the top section of the bid bib and she used to triple check everything because she doesn't want me ruining a machine. Because once she started finding things in the pockets, she said, oh, this guy's not smart enough to empty out his own clothes. He's going to have to get treated like a child. So that's that's never happened to me, thankfully. Well, I do my own laundry and
00:48:44
Speaker
Yeah. See, I don't. They stay in my apron. And that's it. They they never come out. Right. So generally speaking, our pencils never get from the shop to the house. No, no, I never have a pencil in my pocket. Yeah. Yeah. So did you get a backstory from Tom? How had this happened? I didn't get a backstory, but I did get a picture. It was a graphlet, pental graphlet in the washing machine.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah, what'd that do to the rest of the clothes? Anything? Uh, no, I don't think it would have any effect. I could see it maybe kind of gumming up on the inside, maybe. Yeah.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah, no, we we treasure our pencils here. Maybe a little bit too obsessively. Just maybe I keep the same thing in my pockets all the time. So I know what goes in comes out. That's right. Yesterday, when you misplaced your wallet. Oh, man. And that never happened. Right. Yeah. But we left the shop in a in a time that we never leave the shop. Well, and what it is, I'm coming from physical therapy. So I have
00:49:53
Speaker
Got a change. Yeah, like short, like regular. Like gym shorts. Yeah, gym shorts. I got gym shorts on. So then I come and I so I have it in my coat pocket and then I come into the shop and I get changed to work clothes. And then so it made it out of the jacket to my bench. And yeah, so. Yeah, it was very disconcerting. Yeah, I'm like, what the hell? I'm like, this never happens. Yeah, we're creatures of habit over here, aren't we? Oh, yeah.
00:50:25
Speaker
The ruts are deep. I can see my son is getting getting like me that way where he likes he's very regimented. Yeah, I'm comfortable with that. I like to know where my stuff is. I mean, I think that's totally a totally sane way to live. Yeah, there you go.
00:50:44
Speaker
Like how we keep our clamps hanging on the wall in size order, which some people might think is. Oh, that's tame. Yeah. But remember over at Tom's, the clamps were just anywhere. Well, there was only like three of them. But even the bar clips used to make me crazy. Like just look at it there would make me. Oh, the pipe clamps. It was like a seventy two, two twenty fours and then a forty eight and then.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yeah, they saw the mishmash together. I'd straighten them all out because I had to, so I didn't lose my mind. You go back the next day and they're all like, yeah.
00:51:27
Speaker
Oh, man.
Exploring Craftsmanship and Client Connections
00:51:29
Speaker
Can we move on? Yeah, sure. All right. Yeah, I think we've covered that one. How do you define what makes up craftsmanship? Oh, nice question. Is it the skills you gain over time or the tools you use in your shop? How do you explain craftsmanship to your clients? That's from Corey CT Woodwork on Instagram.
00:51:51
Speaker
That's those Real good questions. Yeah, we're getting down to the nitty-gritty here. Yeah, I Don't think tools have anything to do with craftsmanship. Yeah
00:52:04
Speaker
They can certainly help your level of craftsmanship, but it's not a defining factor, I'll say. It's not a prerequisite. So as long as you're working to the best of your ability and pushing yourself to become better, I think you are pursuing craftsmanship. Yeah.
00:52:29
Speaker
It's not like a definitive. There's no definitive definition. There's no there's no ceiling on it either. Right. I don't know what the the floor would be. Would you say it's more of a mindset? Yeah.
00:52:47
Speaker
Um, yeah, that that strive to do better and do your best. That's really at the heart of craftsmanship. Right. Caring. Mm hmm. Um, because things happen no matter how skilled you are, careful you are. Things can go wrong. Uh, something doesn't.
00:53:07
Speaker
happen the way you want it to or something's damaged or over time, maybe a split or a warp or something. So part of that craftsmanship is in the aftercare as well, isn't it? You know, it's so I agree with you. It has less to do with the
00:53:29
Speaker
actual output almost as it does to your attention to detail, given your level of experience and expertise and and your caring and your presentation and that sort of thing. Yeah, you could be a total newbie and be a craftsman. Right. And be making things that are super simple, like a chopstick.
00:53:53
Speaker
Exactly exactly. Or you could be someone you know making reproduction Queen Anne furniture with hand carved flame finials. We couldn't touch any of that stuff. No it's a it's a whole different different thing.
00:54:10
Speaker
So, yeah, there's there's a lot of levels to craftsmanship, but it's all in the mindset, I think. I mean, you could be a candy maker. I mean, there's a difference. You know, I mean, somebody who's rolling up a truffle and somebody who's really just carefully, you know, caressing that chocolate and it's tempered just right and they're rolling it out and you know, tweeze. Yeah. I mean,
00:54:36
Speaker
No matter what you do, there's a difference, right? And there are craftsmen in every trade, and there are hacks in every trade, whether you're a plumber or a doctor or a woodworker. So what about that last part of the question? How do you explain craftsmanship to your clients?
00:54:57
Speaker
Um, I mean, it's never easy. It's it's, as you can tell, it's hard to articulate. So, I mean, we tend to fall back to like analogies and examples. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Of course, showing them previous work always helps.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yeah, the car is an easy example and an analogy to make, you know, all the cars are going to get you there, but there's a difference between a Corolla and, you know, a Beamer and then a Bentley and all these things in between.
00:55:37
Speaker
I think one of the things we talk about is our care and the selection of materials and finishes and things like that and how we choose to do certain things. It gives people the the knowledge that we do care. And I think that's, again, a big part of being a craftsman is that you care about what's what's coming out at the end.
00:56:04
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. And the and the care is definitely what we try and import on the client. Yeah, it was in a.
00:56:15
Speaker
in a clubhouse room last night about interior design. I got up and was talking and one of the it was an architect woman. Grace was saying, you know, clients are buying off emotion. So you need to play to that emotion and not play sounds negative, but you need to you need to use that.
00:56:38
Speaker
because that's what we that's what we do. It is an intrinsic investment. It's not just a physical object that you're buying. You're buying the story behind it and the story that goes into making it so.
00:56:51
Speaker
Very true. Think about our clients out there in Easton, the satisfaction they're getting now because they had something made for them that they didn't just pick out. Like there's a couple of ways I could go. I see this in a catalog and it was made for me or I went to these folks, I told them what I wanted and they went through this whole process over a month
00:57:19
Speaker
And I said, yes, no, I like this. I don't like that. And here's what I have now in my home. Yeah. They have this deep ownership of this piece. Yeah, it was made for them and for them only. Yeah. You know, you if you go to restoration hardware, you and 150,000 other people have that same stupid table in your dining room.
00:57:44
Speaker
It wasn't cheap. That's stupid. Yes. Can a table be stupid?
00:57:51
Speaker
People can be. So I was getting some coffee the other day and I put my car in reverse. Drove right through the quick check. I thought it said break. It's a guess. It just goes to show you don't send somebody for coffee if they don't know how to operate and earn. Yeah.
00:58:19
Speaker
Oh lordy. Got another one from our buddy Andy here.
00:58:24
Speaker
This is a good one too. We have a couple questions here like that end up tying in. This one kind of ties into the one before. Can you guys talk about the lackadaisical mindset about making in the industry? About making the lack, sorry. Can you guys talk about the lackadaisical mindset about making in this industry? Meaning the general lack of enthusiasm and willingness to make something to the best of what you're capable of.
00:58:51
Speaker
starting from the top all the way to the bottom. I work with a lot of people who really should have another career and it's discouraging. But that's why you guys resonate so well. And my hope is that there are more of us than them. Keep up the good work. Thank you, Andy. Yeah, thank you. Wow. You know, we touched on in the last couple of questions where it's just an unfortunate truth about
00:59:20
Speaker
so many fields. So my first response is those guys that are lackadaisical in their current job, they're going to carry that attitude to their second, third and fourth jobs down the road. That's, that's my experience in this world.
00:59:40
Speaker
Those are the things that you can't teach somebody. Yeah. Do you think that there's something out there for that person that they would be enthusiastic about though? Does everyone have something? It's possible, but I'm going to guess that those people are excited about certain things in their life. It's just not war.
01:00:01
Speaker
Shouldn't that be what they do? Yeah. Well, if let's say just for argument's sake, your big thing in life is to shoot, you know, 18 holes and then go have a beer.
01:00:16
Speaker
That's what gets you excited. That's what gets you up in the morning. You're going to have a hard time monetizing that unless you're a pro golfer. Yeah. So that's going to cut out. Most people are gambling. Yeah. And I think it's it's.
01:00:35
Speaker
something that's important that we all do something we love, but we must all find something we love in the things that we do. And I think that's that's what Andy's talking about. You know, all right, we all got to come to work.
01:00:52
Speaker
Some days we got to come in here and sand. Some days we get to come in here and cut joinery or assemble. And we have to be enthusiastic about that. And in fact, what's there's a little plaque over my bench.
01:01:12
Speaker
and literally says nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm. I know somebody that likes quotes like that.
01:01:25
Speaker
hang in there and we're not really those touchy feely types but that is I think appropriate you know you have to you have to at least be present so let's let's see if we could start getting into the meat and potatoes of this can we talk about it yeah sure meaning the general lack of enthusiasm
01:01:52
Speaker
Well, I think it stems from the this systemic stripping of the craft out of these industries. That's that's a great point. You know, a lot of this work has been shipped overseas and it's so far removed from the general public now that people think that furniture just gets made by Santa's little elves and it shows up on a boat and then gets shipped to the Home Depot.
01:02:15
Speaker
Santa's elves live in China. These ones do. They are elf-like. I don't know where the hell I was going with that. Threw you off your mark there didn't I?
01:02:34
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, the industry as a whole is kind of because there's so much low level work going on. It's kind of looked at as like non-serious, I feel like, like the craft, it's not as esteemed and as revered as it once was.
01:02:53
Speaker
You know, like when we tell people we and we say this kind of thing all the time, like we tell people that we make furniture like they don't really understand what we mean. So I think that's a big part of it. So it's like saying, oh, I'm a chef and they're like, yeah, you work at McDonald's, right? Right. That's like what it's become. Um.
01:03:15
Speaker
So I think that's pretty true. Maybe humans aren't cut out for assembly line work or this drone sort of existence. And maybe telling everybody to walk it off and get with the program, that just goes against human nature.
01:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, like I, you know, we've worked in a production shop making frameless cabinets and I've seen I've seen like on how it's made stuff like that, like big time operations like, you know, I'm trying to think of like names off the top of my head like California closets or something like that, but more like cabinetry based like shit. Well, you know what I mean? And it's it's a regional thing, too. So you probably have ones by you that are different, but
01:04:05
Speaker
where there's a guy all he's doing all day is putting the back on the cabinet. Like, yeah, that's not that's not craftsmanship. No. So to expect that person to feel like a craftsperson and to be excited. Like, that's a lot to ask.
01:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, I remember reading some article that described how piecework, assembly line type work is some of the most ungratifying work there is because you never see something come to fruition, something that you've been working on. You've just seen that cabinet back or that cabinet door. You never get to see it in the person's house.
01:04:47
Speaker
As you know, that's some of the most satisfying parts of our work. I mean, that would be worth going out of the shop after we stop installing. We will have to go take site visits.
01:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, because it's a composed thing. Yeah, it doesn't look the same in here as it does now. Like those wall units. Yeah, they look fine in here, but they look great when they were in right with the background and the setting the way it was supposed to be. So he's and did we get to everything in the question? Can you guys talk about it? Yes, we've done that.
01:05:35
Speaker
He works with a lot of people should have another career. It's discouraging it. Well there you go. We've experienced that too. Yeah. If you're trying to make the best of your situation and everybody around you is just oh god I can't wait till the weekend. Yeah you can feel dragged down by them.
01:05:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's that's extra tough. You got to start putting up your fences. Turn the music up on your headphones. Yeah, make the best of it. I guess I don't know. Yeah.
01:06:07
Speaker
Yeah, and the hope that there's more of us than them. Well, yeah. It seems that maybe the tide is turning and more people are focused on the craft of the of the industry rather than the just like sheer output and profit margin. You generally have to create that opportunity yourself. Yeah.
01:06:29
Speaker
in today's economy. And I don't know the economy since when the jobs are for the masses and the craft is for the few. There's, there's less money and there's less opportunity there. Um, so that's why most people just pick a job, do it, uh, you know, semi half heartedly and wait for the weekend. Yep.
01:06:57
Speaker
I saw it as a teacher. People I had when I was when I was teaching in this junior high school, I'd be up there in my classroom and every single day and I mean every day the teacher had the class down the hall for me.
01:07:12
Speaker
would come in and she'd walk past my door and shout out the number of days left in the school term. Now as a teacher, first off, I mean, teaching is a hard job. I don't want to downplay that at all. But between the holidays and everything else, you work 186 days a year. That's your contract 186 days less than half. Yeah.
01:07:39
Speaker
Is it? Yeah, it is six because it would be what? No, three seventy two is one sixty five. Right. Right. So what's one eighty six? It would be three one eighty three. One eighty three times two is three sixty five. No. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So you're off half the time. Yeah.
01:08:02
Speaker
And she would go by and go, 142. It was, it was really a downer. That's like we used to have Friday, Thursday. It's Friday, Jr. Yeah. Friday, Jr.
01:08:18
Speaker
Boy, but when you're in a miserable experience, it did buoy our spirits for a little while. It was a little joke and it would, you know, kind of lift Jeff a little bit Friday. Junior again. Tomorrow's Friday. Yeah. After Friday, Saturday. Yeah. Um, and then you get those Sunday blues. If that's the way y'all were, we're kind of happy to come back to work on one. Oh yeah.
01:08:44
Speaker
That's where it should be. We're lucky. But when I say lucky, we made our opportunity. We took all the risks. We left comfortable situations. We stepped into the great unknown. And we work and work and work every single day just to keep what we have. And if greatest success comes our way,
01:09:13
Speaker
Well, that's icing. You know, we're working towards it. But the real work is just to keep our heads above water. Yeah, you want more money or do you want to be happy to come to work? Mm hmm. Right. Because I was making more money work for somebody. Yeah, we just will will buy less things. Jeff and I don't do anything. I don't have any money in my wallet. No, we carry no money with us. We don't go anywhere. We don't eat out. We you know, but we got nice tools.
01:09:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it comes with the job. Right. But everybody makes their choices. And to kind of plug the Zoom meeting for our patrons, that's kind of what we're going to be talking about. I think it's instrumental for folks that haven't run a business or don't know how to turn their hobby, whether it's making cutting boards or something larger or smaller.
01:10:08
Speaker
How do I turn this into some sort of money making operation. Yeah. Yeah. We should say it's not woodworking. It's woodworking specific, but it translates directly to making anything. Right.
Woodworking Tools and Techniques
01:10:20
Speaker
Exactly. These things will work across the board, especially for things that are time and material based. Because that's really what woodworking is based on.
01:10:31
Speaker
All right. Want to read the next question? Here's our next one. What do you guys use to cut rough lumber down to rough lengths? I don't have space for a miter station, so I'm curious what you think is the best way without one. That's from Rob, Rob Vincep on Instagram.
01:10:48
Speaker
Well, Rob, we do use our miter saw. It's about, you know, it's it's 90 percent of what we use that miter saw for is to cut rough lumber. But we don't have like a full fledged miter station. No. We got like four feet on both sides of the saw. The one side flies out across the doorway. So that's what we would use if we had like a 10 foot piece that needed to be trimmed. And we actually
01:11:18
Speaker
Got a hole in the wall on the other side. So we have a little door. We'll open up and slide the piece through and get another couple of feet. So you don't need a big fancy, you know, we don't have what do you call those stop blocks and things like that. We mark everything with a tape and a pencil. Well, Rob's in Brooklyn. So I'm assuming he's got like no space. Yeah. If he doesn't even have a miter saw, what do you suggest?
01:11:46
Speaker
Uh, well, handheld Cirksaw, but I mean, you're still going to have to put that board up on something. I mean, I, I think that the space, the biggest pieces in this equation is the board itself.
01:12:04
Speaker
you know if you got a miter saw that wasn't let's say um uh you know let's say a 10 inch that that just uh you know what do you call it non-slider is that how you you call it a non-slider straight chop straight chop saw 10 or 12 inch um that's gonna cut most of your stuff or you have the dough spring for one of those fancy miter saws that don't take up a lot of space behind the saw yep
01:12:32
Speaker
I would still check out getting the miter saw. And if you had to temporarily set it up on a couple of things to make a temp station or something like that.
01:12:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think like if you don't have the space to store a miter saw, it really doesn't save that much time. No. Like if you're just, if you have the boards up on horses, you could easily cut them with a Cirksaw. You're going to run into less of an issue of binding with a Cirksaw because there's no fences to deal with. So you can just cut through it, cut straight through a piece without having it bind up or on the miter saw you need to take into account the fact that
01:13:14
Speaker
The board's not sitting perfectly flat against the fences and it's going to it's going to bind up when you start to cut it. So you have to cut it in a specific way. Like you said, a jigsaw. Yeah, I've seen a lot of guys who break down rough lumber with a jigsaw. You know, they make big blades. So you're talking about a quarter. I forgot to add that into the question, but he was saying a quarter specifically. But yeah, you can get big jigsaw blades. Yeah, why not?
01:13:42
Speaker
All right. So he's more interested really in the options to a miter saw. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Handheld circular saw, especially nice lightweight one. That frickin ring doorbell.
01:14:05
Speaker
I said, I don't have to put my phone on vibrate today. It'll be fine or jigsaw. So and you know, you see a lot of people on Instagram and places like that building little multi-purpose stations where a saw flip over and stuff like that. If you had really the need for something and you wanted it, you could put a saw inside something. I'm wondering what other tools he's got in the shop.
01:14:33
Speaker
I think you just bought a saw stop. Oh. I mean, because he's got to have a planer and a joiner if he's cutting rough lumber. Yeah. Yep. Yep. All right. Somebody else I'm thinking of. Yeah, Capex. Yeah, you see this. This next question ties into the to this one.
01:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. You want me to read it? Yeah, go ahead. Do you use a miter saw for anything other than rough cutting the length? Doesn't seem like a lot of furniture makers use them for anything else unless they have a Capex. That's from Nicholas Paul Nikki one on Instagram. So, yeah, Rob did just get us all stopped because we were speaking. Yeah, he was asking for our thoughts. That's cool. Yeah, we use that.
01:15:25
Speaker
You said 90. I'm going to say 98 percent for rough cutting. I mean, you know, when we're over there, like we need a piece of wood, 26 and a half inches to work as like a spacer. Yeah, that's what that saw gets used not for for fine, repeatable cuts. Right. All the cross cutting we do when we're making furniture, we do it on the table saw. Yep.
01:15:52
Speaker
I mean, you know, John Peters would be a great person to ask because he's got a Capex. I wonder what he uses his for. I think he still uses his Hitachi for cutting miters. He's got it set up with, you know, zero clearance fence. And, you know, he's got a saw stop and he's got his Powermatic.
01:16:16
Speaker
So he's got a similar setup to us as far as like the tooling. I wonder if he does any more, you know, more accurate type work on his Capex. Yeah, I think a lot of people over, um,
01:16:35
Speaker
uh over revere the the miter saw yeah everybody on youtube's got a miter yeah check out my plans to build a miter saw station this and that you got a perfectly good table saw right there that blade's not moving you want to cut with something where the blade's moving around it just doesn't make any sense yeah our miter saw and its station as we'll go
01:16:59
Speaker
They are the ugly stepchild of this shop. If you have a table saw, that's the better choice. The only thing that the miter saw does better is crown molding. That's the only thing it does better.
01:17:13
Speaker
So for me, I don't think a Capex would change that. Like we love our festival stuff, but you don't really ever hear us lusting after the Capex because that's not how we use that tool. And I don't think having a better version of the tool would change that even cutting moldings.
01:17:35
Speaker
Like mitered moldings we're gonna go to the table saw yeah, it's a more solid machine. Yeah, this is a $5,000 table saw The Capex isn't a $5,000 miter saw there is a that is reflective of something this thing is more solid Yeah, and it it stays straighter and more rigid than a miter saw ever will it's just the blade is stationary the Capex is a nice saw yeah, it's not as
01:18:03
Speaker
Robust in real life as I imagined it would be. No, none of the festival stuff. Yeah, that's not that's not there. They're all about the finesse. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess the way we use it, I want to see something that looks like, you know, it could take down a lumberjack. I'd feel bad, you know, cutting rough on the caperks like we were abusing it. Right. All right. I'm going to move on then.
Improving Workflow and Efficiency
01:18:33
Speaker
As I do more projects, I'm always trying to find ways to do things more efficiently, effectively, quicker, or easier. Things that make the process easier, not cutting corners or compromising quality.
01:18:48
Speaker
Stuff like using reference measurements rather than maths, other tips and tricks picked up from YouTube or Instagram, ways to use equipment, etc, etc. What are some things that you've picked up over the years that have helped with or improved your workflow and efficiency? Or is there some method, technique, or idea that you were taught or were shown that took your work to the next level?
01:19:13
Speaker
This is a long question. On the other hand, I found that for some things are just isn't a shortcut or easy way to do it. You just have to put your head down and get to it like sanding or doing proper and accurate layout for joinery. What are the areas you feel that you just need to slow down, take your time and do it right? That's from one of our good patrons, miles.
01:19:37
Speaker
So the first part of that question, Miles is looking for ways that might help him be more efficient and accurate in the shop.
01:19:49
Speaker
I think something that really was a springboard for me, as you guys know, I started out as a as a finished carpenter. So watching stuff by Gary Katz about muscle memory and just marking, measuring, marking and cutting.
01:20:10
Speaker
uh, was a big help to me and really improved my accuracy. So it could be something as simple as that. Like you see people who have sloppy measuring and marking etiquette. Like if you're using your tape in different hands and different sides and it all comes down to muscle memory at the end of the day, these tasks are not difficult per se. It's all about doing it and getting that muscle memory and being able to repeat them accurately. So, um,
01:20:41
Speaker
I think something like that may help like a Gary Katz carpentry video as it may seem simple compared to woodworking, but there's a lot of parallel. I you know what you said resonates with me. It's like, where do you keep your tape and your pencil when you're marking? You know, you and I, we're nuts about this stuff anyway, but pencil goes here, the tape goes here. So, you know,
01:21:11
Speaker
You're not having to think, where's my tape? Where's my pencil? Your hand movement is there and your hand, if your pencil somehow is gone, your hand is still looking for it in that spot. So there's that element of it that improves things across the board.
01:21:31
Speaker
I like that. What about the idea of reference measurements rather than using math and transferring numbers, which always has a little bit of, uh, yeah. Uh, yeah. I'm a big fan of that. I like marking things rather than measuring when I can using known, uh, like we have the little spacers over there that are 32nd, 16th, uh, eighth quarter, whatever. Um,
01:21:57
Speaker
Even going back to when I was a trim carpenter, like I never measured casing, I would hold it up and I would mark it because there's always a chance for a mistake when you're measuring. Right. Right. Yeah. I like that too. I like making like little dummy sticks and stuff like that when I'm fitting a lot of doors into a case.
01:22:15
Speaker
I like to make little scrap sticks and lay it out so I can see it and then I'll take that stick and put it to the fence and set my stops to that instead of a number.
01:22:30
Speaker
because that's where that, oh, I, I'm mismeasured by an inch kind of thing. Oh, I forgot to forgot that I burned an inch on that one. I didn't realize that. Um, and so ways to use equipment. Uh, I think it goes back to what you said, Jeff, repetition. Yeah.
01:22:50
Speaker
Try to develop good habits, things that are going to carry over from process to process. Workflow and efficiency. Yeah, try to minimize your movements. That's a big thing in like production trim carpentry. This whole Gary Katz thing really ties in.
01:23:10
Speaker
Like when I, if I'm doing production trim, my piece, I'm always working from the right, uh, how would you say this, from the left, from the left to the right, like when you read a book kind of thing. Um, no, I guess it would be right to left. Like all the pieces are moving.
01:23:32
Speaker
to the right on the saw, on the miter saw, because that's the main that's the main tool in finished carpenters. So like you're making your cut, your piece is going to the right, you're measuring to the right, marking and then making a cut. Everything is your your your your waste is always on the left side of the blade, like just getting in this flow of everything moving in one direction and and minimizing your movements. It could save a ton of time and and make things a lot easier.
01:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's great to get your eye used to that, too, like where that mark is and where your blade is going to fall away. So he's on the same side. Yep. And sometimes it's it's not needed. Sometimes you just don't want to do it. But for the most part, we want to do all our stuff at the same time. Like if we have to join a bunch of stuff, let's join it all. Let's play it all. Let's send it all.
01:24:29
Speaker
You know working by myself. There were some days. I just couldn't do it The mental fatigue was just too high so I would break it up and I would come in and go I'm not gonna like Make all the door parts today because I just can't do it I'm gonna make the door parts for these two cabinets and I don't care if I have to repeat but if if we're talking about efficiency and effectiveness
01:24:56
Speaker
Well, then you set the stop. If we're going to cut our tenants, uh, on the, on the saw with the data. Well, do it once, get it fit and perfect. Run all 70 rails in style, uh, rails. Yeah. Just the rails. I guess you're doing the tenants, but, um,
01:25:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we all know it takes five minutes to do one thing, but to do two, it takes eight minutes. You know, it's never keeps going down. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything we well, you've you've mentioned Gary Katz.
01:25:36
Speaker
Um that we've picked up. I mean I I never really learned too many good habits having Worked here by myself for all this time. I probably learned more about efficiency from working with jeff Because he was a little obsessive over it. Yeah, and you were in that environment Yeah, so you you know
01:25:56
Speaker
for me, it wasn't really an essential skill. I would just, you know, I'd come in, there's a pile of work, I just pick something and do it. Put your head down as, as miles says, that was my school. But you know, watching Jeff, I've see that he's got a lot of
01:26:16
Speaker
tips in that area and tricks about how to work efficiently and that's not like a mechanical thing either that's it's it's very natural if you if you get in the right habits yeah and well like the only way to get ahead in a
01:26:34
Speaker
as a carpenter is to do better work faster. So you want to make more money and well you got to you got to put up or shut up. So I was always looking for ways to do things faster and better. And so and still just because well now it's about making money like if we can get the job out a day sooner. That's a day that we got paid that you know. So I just had a flashback to my kitchen days just like as a prep cook that's
01:27:03
Speaker
What you want to go is to the line. And you want to get that 50 pound bag of carrots done. Exactly. And I remember going into that prep kitchen and learning all these. This is the way I'm going to set up the mushrooms so that they could come out. And this is the way I'm going to hold them and slice them.
01:27:20
Speaker
and it's true that's a good analogy yeah like you're not going to have the carrots over here and some of the stems are going this way some of the stems are going that way they're going to be all lined up the same way i do that over here on the dado saw if i'm cutting parts i have all the tenet all the grooves facing one direction so i can grab the piece i turn it right i put it down i pull the thing so it's it's just getting into these making those repetitious
01:27:45
Speaker
tasks as smooth and as quick as possible. Because you shave a half a second off each one, well then you save 10 minutes and then that compounds into every other task. I'll tell you one thing that I do that helps me if I'm doing a lot of stuff like say on a table saw where I have to do a lot of repetitive cuts and I have 50 pieces stacked up
01:28:09
Speaker
I always like to put a little X on the face that's gonna go either against the fans or you know I pick a spot so that I don't have to second guess. How I have that part stacked up because in online work.
01:28:26
Speaker
The way the board's facing means everything because we're always picking the right face. There's a grain match. So even though it's the you know, it's not going to affect the size or anything like that, it's going to affect the layout in the piece. Right. So we have to keep track of all that.
01:28:41
Speaker
And that's a great help to me because now I don't have to second guess that this is this other side, the good side, or is this side the good side? They're very close. Yeah, like I'll have it so that I grab the piece and it gets turned counterclockwise. Every piece there is that it's getting pulled the same exact way. I like to be able to see the mark, too, as I'm running it fast. The cutting thing gives me that little extra bit. I'm not that crazy. I take care of that before I start cutting.
01:29:11
Speaker
I see it going in there and I know. I did good. Is it a wonder we get anything done? The amount of nuttiness that's going on in here. That's part of craftsmanship.
01:29:29
Speaker
So, Miles, I think you got the answers. I think you know the answers already before you're asking them. What about the slowing down? What are some things where you have to just, there's no trick. You just got to slow down. Sanding is one of them. I mean, you really,
01:29:47
Speaker
You have to do a thorough job, sometimes hand planning, trimming. And also, even though we're, you know, trying to be efficient and quick, we never rush the machine, you know, let the machine do its job. Yeah. Like the wood shop teacher used to tell us in the seventh grade, let the saw do the work. Because that's when accidents can happen. You know, you always want to be safe.
01:30:18
Speaker
get yourself a saw stop. Yeah, I mean, we only got two or more people in the shop. That's it. Wow. I just glanced at the print, the font size for our patrons. It's getting tiny. I know. I had to squeeze it onto this page. I got to figure out how to get half over there.
Q&A Wrap-up and Beer Thoughts
01:30:40
Speaker
Well, that's the last question we got. We hope we did a good job answering them. Um,
01:30:48
Speaker
So what do you think of the beer of the week? I loved it. Actually, it was great. You know, we had a mishap. Yeah. Wait until I don't know what the guy's name is. We're actually we're talking right now on Instagram, but he's like, oh, what time to go live? I'm like, I said, yeah, it'll be on YouTube later. And he said, oh, make sure I check it out. I didn't say, well, we totally.
01:31:13
Speaker
Till he botched the the delivery. Yeah. Yeah. That's the only isn't this brewery. It's like the only black owned brewery in Arizona. I know it was the first first. Yeah. So it's holding a pretty unique spot in the marketplace. Yeah. I'm really interested in trying some of his other beers because he's got some that are like super hazy, which I don't have a big fan of. I mean, smell it now.
01:31:44
Speaker
Wow. Almost floral. Yeah, like cotton candy almost. Yeah. I'm going to say it was it was one of the better of recent memory. Yeah. And we've had a few. Yeah, we've literally tried 31 different beers better than actually than that. I don't want to call the one last week. Yeah, that was probably the worst beer we had. Yeah, that was pretty bad.
01:32:10
Speaker
that the Kona Kona Kona Brewing Company. Well, it was a big facade. You know, I got taken in big wave or something. Was it called or longboard? Longboard. Yeah. It's like made by Budweiser or some. Yeah, I was I was totally bamboozled because it came in kind of like longboard. Hawaiian beer made in court.
01:32:32
Speaker
And it came in kind of like these different sized little bottles. Like it looked crafty, didn't it? Yep. That's what they do. They buy, they start out and then they just buy them up.
01:32:44
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't any good. No, no, it tasted like like a shitty Corona. Yeah, it wasn't any good at all. That was probably the only even there were some beers that were a little bit wacky tasting. Yeah, that waffle sauce. Right. It wasn't. This was they weren't bad. They just were just like out there. That waffle one was bad.
01:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, for a different reason. Yeah, it just wasn't good. This this was bad in like that, that cheap kind of way. Yeah, yeah. Like, even like we had like, didn't we have a little bat blue or something bats? It was better than that. Wasn't as bad as no.
01:33:25
Speaker
No. So two thumbs way up. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And if it's available somehow on the internet or anything like that. On Instagram. Kitsune. K I T S U N E brewing. Yeah. Under the moon was this particular beer. It's at Kitsune Brewing Co on Instagram. Arizona craft brewers united for beer independence. Cool.
01:33:56
Speaker
Good stuff. I mean, the smell now is I couldn't smell before so damn cold, but. Yeah, if you like hops, you will like this one. You know, I'm not typically I don't really like a hoppy beer, but this hop head was this was nice for whatever other things they have in it. It's definitely multi.
01:34:20
Speaker
So got that caramelly. That's why it has that that more of a golden brown kind of color. I probably like more of a multi kind of beer. Well, you like Guinness. So yeah, that's also there. That's a dark, a dark mall. Oh, OK. Yeah. So I definitely like multi. Yeah. Yeah. I like them all. Yeah. For the most part.
01:34:39
Speaker
non discriminating. Yeah. I have I have a sophisticated. I want to plug the Patreon event going on
Patreon Event and Episode Farewell
01:34:51
Speaker
next week. We'll be doing it prior to the podcast. That's next week, Wednesday, April 14th at 1 p.m. Eastern.
01:34:58
Speaker
You can sign up for that through our Patreon. So we'll be doing pricing and prefabrication protocol we're calling it, provide you with our spreadsheet for pricing so you can plug in quantities and numbers of hours and it'll spit out a number for you. Our scope of work letter so you have a template to work off of to be able to
01:35:19
Speaker
present these jobs to your clients. Two nice templates. Yeah, so it'll be about 90 minutes long. If it's anything like usual, probably run over that. We plan for a half an hour. We'll go 90. So yeah, go to our Patreon to find out about that, something that we're going to be doing more often, at least a couple of times a year. We haven't figured it out. Yeah, this will be our first one, so we'll work out some of the bugs. At least quarterly.
01:35:47
Speaker
But yeah. And hopefully we'll get some feedback and maybe some ideas for what the next topic might be. Yeah, this will definitely be a learning experience. I think it'll be a YouTube live. We haven't figured that out yet though. That's the thought at this point. Yeah.
01:36:05
Speaker
I want to thank our Gold Tier Patrons, Jerry Greenen, David Murphy, Manny Sirianni, Dustin Fayer, Adam Potthass, David Shoemaker, and Colin with no last name. Like Madonna. Mm-hmm. Or who's somewhat Sting. Another Australian there, Colin. Oh, wow. That's cool. Australia loves Green Street. Yeah, at least those two guys.
01:36:28
Speaker
No, we got a couple. I got Jack. We got Miles. We got Colin. Who else we friends with in Australia? How many people are in Australia? We're chipping away at the population. There's got to be a lot. Australia is big. Yeah, it's it's deceptively big. The maps. I don't know. It's one of those map conspiracies. Yeah, it's definitely one of those. The Western European and American powers making the map. They're like, yeah, it's just this tiny little island over here.
01:36:58
Speaker
You get down to Australia, it takes like 12 days to get across. Yeah, yeah. It's a whole damn continent. Yeah, we're going to blame the public school system for our ignorance there. Yeah, for more than that, too. Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you, guys. Maybe we'll see you next Wednesday. Yeah, I hope so. The lecture, is that what you want to call it? Yeah, the class. Green Street lecture series. Yeah.
01:37:26
Speaker
Yeah, we'll be giving out like a little syllabus beforehand so you can take a look at it. And the documents will be, you know, given out prior to Wednesday. That way everyone can look them over, come up with some questions. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Well, see you guys next week. Episode. Everybody be well. 32. Yeah. Ciao.
01:38:04
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a chain