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We watch "Time and Again" (S1 Ep.4)
43 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway's Children.
We are two loyal Star Trek Voyager fans, plus one newbie who watch an episode of Voyager, and then discuss!
This week we are watching "Time and Again," in which Captain Janeway and Lt. Paris travel back in time to prevent a catastrophic explosion on a planet using polaric energy, while the remaining crew attempts to rescue them from the future.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Not the face red. Yeah, so welcome back to Janeway's children, Tom Barris' children, two of them's children. I think they would have beautiful children. They were getting a lot of screen chemistry time together this episode. And one of, so I took like scene specific notes, but I also took like general notes and I was like, how, how is Janeway's hair so big? It's amazing. You know, I love it.
00:00:29
Speaker
No hair talk. Sorry. You do raise an interesting point because I think I've gathered from senior seller podcasts that I listened to that when the series was starting, they were maybe thinking that her in Paris would be an idol. A quick introduction, I guess, because this week, if we're going to do this like a proper podcast, we are talking about time and again.
00:00:54
Speaker
Episode three, season one, Jamie, your face is hilarious. I mean, I'm smiling right now.
Themes: Psychic Abilities and Anti-Nuclear Sentiment
00:01:04
Speaker
So some say that that looks like a frozen corpse rectus, but I'm imagining that's not what you're seeing. No, I think you froze. But do you want to do us the honors and give us your short summary of the episode?
00:01:16
Speaker
I've been working on sort of making this shorter and I basically went with, entire episode is used as a vehicle to suggest Kez may have psychic powers while making her look like a lunatic to the crew.
00:01:32
Speaker
I thought it was, go ahead, sorry. No, no, no, go for it, go for it. I mean, I originally sort of started thinking that the way it started, my text on this would again, mostly be hostile work environment and HR grievance sort of territory with Tom Paris and Ensign Kim debating about whether to go chasing women who are in their chain of command. We're going to dive right into that. But I thought you might say a vehicle to
00:02:01
Speaker
be, I don't know how to say this, explore anti-nuclear sentiment because there were a couple of points in the series. There was loads of that, yeah. Also, was there a guy who just looked incredibly like a dyed blonde Mel Gibson? I know the guy talking about that. That's not just me, they're probably genetically harvested twins or something because
00:02:28
Speaker
Jenny, did you see her resemblance? I do know which guy you're talking about, yeah, so I guess he must have resemblance because I'm usually, you know, this is great summary, by the way. This is not cryptic at all. Well, I think we've covered off the important things. HR, anti-nuclear and Mel Gibson look alike. What more could you want from the Star Trek episode? Yeah.
Character Dynamics: Tom Paris and Crew Interactions
00:02:49
Speaker
So I think you were getting very poised to talk about Tom Paris, but the opening scene on the bridge with
00:02:56
Speaker
We see Tom and he's set the voyage on his course and he heads towards Harry Kim. And this is like a classic Tom Paris scene, I think. So what do you want to say about that, Jamie?
00:03:09
Speaker
I mean, I think for any viewers that we have, he says playing to the galleries, so he's ever going to get lucky enough to have viewers. And Jenny, if you could just put that beer bottle where it shows the label, just so that we could... We can get sponsors, too. Yes, Sam and Gal are just such a great Star Trek relevant beer. So, effectively, Tom Parris sets the course and then goes over to Harry Kim to try and convince him to go on a double date with a pair of sisters.
00:03:38
Speaker
What are they called? This is very important. Delaney Sisters. Delaney Sisters, sorry. My pronunciation is just clearly so Delta Quadrant. And yeah, Harry Kim is as ever reluctant, either because he's devoted to his work, which is the excuse he gives,
00:03:58
Speaker
or because he senses that Tom Paris is going to place him in a situation where his own relationship is potentially compromised as he keeps telling Tom Paris, I have someone waiting for me back home. Tom Paris goes, it'll be 70 years. She'll find someone else. It's a double date or nothing with these sisters.
00:04:17
Speaker
And then he mentions to Harry Kim that he's told them some rather favourable lies about him, to wit him being, I think, the speed record holder at the Academy for piloting something? Was that there or there? Yeah, something like that, yeah. And Harry's like, but I didn't do that! Tom's like, how are they going to know?
00:04:39
Speaker
Now, before we dive any further into this, can we just sort of dive into the, you know, HR management issues of having a pair of commanders? Sorry, go for it. He does raise a good point because there's a couple, he has a couple of funny lines, I think. But he's like, when he says like, we're the only humans in space, people are going to start perigold. Because I mean, whether HR exists or not, natural human tendency is gonna
00:05:03
Speaker
I think, take over. You are just absolutely going to legislate my desire for Star Trek to be an inclusive, HL-friendly space on your head, which I think everyone else could get behind. Yes. Sometimes I just say yes when you say words just for the record. But yeah, and I think Tom's pushing so hard. Well, I guess because he saw this double data idea, so he really needs Harry to be on board otherwise.
00:05:33
Speaker
And I think if you're going out dating and you're Tom Paris, Harry Kim gives you credibility that you're not just a total scumbag. I think it's important to note that Harry, sorry, not Harry Kim, Ensign Kim, to use his rank, would pull his weight in that sort of arrangement. That is true. I don't know. It's sort of an interesting one, one of the side risks. Well, why don't we ask Jamie, who would you rather go on a date with? Tom Paris or Harry Kim? Ouch. Ouch.
00:06:00
Speaker
Good question. What's early Tom Paris, this Tom Paris? Oh, that's a really tough one actually. I don't know. Can I throw it back at you, Red, while I consider? I'm a total nerd. I think Tom Harry. Tom Harry. Tom Paris would put me off, for sure. He's too pretty.
00:06:29
Speaker
I think he's, and Harry's a nerd. I mean, he's always voted the sexiest man alive, that actor, you know, in the 2000s. So it's not that he's not a- Harry Kim was voted sexiest man alive. Seriously. Oh, and the people, you know, sexiest, you can maybe confirm that, but I think he's more Mike type. I think the sexiest man alive would definitely be- Mike type is someone who's very intelligent, but not into me, which is probably what would happen with Harry Kim.
00:06:56
Speaker
I've made a decision. The answer is, Tom Paris is probably more from the looks side of things, but Harry Kim, as you say, Red, because he's a bit more of a nerd. Should I just point out the irony of you both taking against him on that basis is what he was actually nominated for was one of People magazine's 50 most beautiful people in the world in 1997. And you're both taking against Tom Paris because he's too pretty.
00:07:26
Speaker
He's pretty and cocky. Harry Kim is pretty and not cocky, I guess. Guys, looking at men for their personality instead of their looks, shame on you. Yeah. Jenny, can I say something?
00:07:42
Speaker
I think I would be put off by some of the comments Tombo has made. Our intended is light-hearted, but sometimes when I'm in a grumpy mood be quite an angry feminist, so I think this would upset me. Yeah, I wouldn't find it appealing. It'd be like that first scene in the pilot. So just to keep us moving on, I guess. Then they hit like a sudden shockwave, I believe, and we see Kes in her quarters briefly and she's kind of looking very
00:08:12
Speaker
Disturbed, upset, unsettled. And we go back to the bridge, but everything's kind of okay. Shields holding all systems operational. So I was looking at my notes. They're heading towards a red dwarf system.
Plot Development: Shockwave and Temporal Distortions
00:08:25
Speaker
And then I don't know if anyone.
00:08:26
Speaker
Because isn't there a UK sci-fi show called Red Dwarf? Red Dwarf, yes. But actually there was something else that sort of happened that I was, and I absolutely love the tale about how the actor who played Jean-Luc Picard actually found out about Red Dwarf, but that's something for another moment. There's a slightly weird moment in which Janeway is like, are you familiar with any life forms in this system? To Neelix. And he's very awkward about how he answers that.
00:08:56
Speaker
Well, just before that, they do, like they're doing some analysis and there's a suggestion or evidence of a major destination nearby, which is the source of the wave. I did try to take some more notes on what's actually happening on that.
00:09:10
Speaker
And then, yeah, she goes to Neelix, asks him if he's familiar, and he is really awkward. And also it's like, what is the point? Because his whole selling point was, I know everyone in the region. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I can understand him feeling awkward if he doesn't know anyone from anything, but still, he...
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah. Well, he was kind of funny. I guess his line was like familiar. Well, actually, I can't. I didn't write it down. So I thought he was going to sort of hint that he wouldn't call themselves friendly. Yeah. Everyone, you know, had a price on his head or something like that. But it turned out he just he just didn't know anyone. And that was quite an odd one for me. Maybe he felt awkward because that's his whole purpose is to know a bit more. But then January does something that I think we're going to see often.
00:09:54
Speaker
going forward, is she changes course to investigate. And Kes enters the bridge, and she's looking very concerned. Tom finds the origin of the shockwave, an M class planet, zero life science, but an evidence of a prior civilization. And so Jamie orders the way mission to go investigate.
00:10:19
Speaker
Tom. Does Kes enter at that stage saying that she'd felt loads of, or she'd felt something awful and there's images of her having a nightmare? She definitely enters at that point. But I don't. So then they all, I guess, beam down to the planet and it's, they kind of in runs and then it's the opening credits.
00:10:47
Speaker
And we return and Valana's doing her analysis. And she says, I mean, some of the, I think the language they use, I guess, or the dialogue is really interesting, but when she says it seems like the entire surface of the planet has been seared, which I thought was quite a graphic, graphic. Yeah, actually, seared is a very, very evocative word as opposed to, you know,
00:11:06
Speaker
burnt or something like that. Cyr sort of has an intensity to it, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, it stood out to me. And in the context of what happens later, it sort of adds a little bit of, wow, something really bad happened here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. What's the word? It heightens the
00:11:26
Speaker
tension or... It heightens how it feels when you find out the events later, which is sort of weird. It pre-seasons. I don't know if you can talk about pre-seasoning an episode for emotional trauma, but... Yeah, maybe that's a good word. I don't know. It does that. It does that. Yeah. So a little bit more of the science or the Star Trek science. Is polaric energy actually a thing? Because they're all talking about... I did not Google that, yes.
00:11:55
Speaker
It seems that I think it was a chain reaction in subspace likely caused by the ignition of a destination of one or more polaric ion devices. And Tom Harris is like, the people never had a chance.
00:12:09
Speaker
And then, then too, because I've been about the Romulan test facility leading to the ban. And that's, I guess, when I got some nuclear weapon vibes. Yeah. Yeah. I think they talk about, um, they're sort of amazed that they used polaric energy to say something about they were channeling into everyone's homes. And given year when this came out, it makes me think whether those talking about people were a bit nervy, um, about the future, as you said earlier of nuclear.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, that was the line that came up. Yeah, can that replace fossil fuels in the sense that we'd be getting energy from that channel into all our homes? And, you know, that could be really scary because the disaster, disasters that could occur. Yeah, I mean, they use the phrase a time bomb under every street or something. So it's very, that's, yeah.
00:13:04
Speaker
It's sort of, I mean, I don't know. There was lots about the episode and leaping it. I'm not going to leap ahead too much, but that did sort of make one think this might be sort of articulating a viewer's stance on nuclear energy or just, hey, looked at objectively, if you were an outside actor, this is
Ethical Dilemmas: The Prime Directive
00:13:26
Speaker
how it would look like.
00:13:29
Speaker
a seemingly incredibly powerful energy source but being used and prone to disasters with a group protesting against it but almost so interwoven into a societal fabric that that protest is almost just doomed from point
00:13:46
Speaker
one, which was again interesting. I wouldn't have thought that Star Trek would so soon in a series come out with a stance like that, but I don't know if I was the only one sort of reading them as sort of heavily negative about nuclear in stance, insofar as they alluded to it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I
00:14:11
Speaker
Maybe the writers wrote this and weren't considering nuclear energy at all, because sometimes it seems like they say something and it turns out that wasn't on their mind. But there were a couple of phrases that made me think, oh, is this about, they might not have a stance, but they are always testing the boundaries of ideas or technology.
00:14:29
Speaker
I got the impression they didn't actually have a stance on it. But again, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that that's wrong. Actually, the people who created it were wildly against using nuclear energy. But my initial take is that there wasn't a strong stance on it. It was more that they were exploring the idea of it. Because that was topical at the time, you know, like how there was, you know, idea, a rough idea at that time that there were going to be environmental issues
00:14:58
Speaker
the continued use of fossil fuels and could nuclear be a potential replacement and then there was a lot of concern about that and how dangerous it was and it'd be interesting to look up when this episode was first broadcast in relation to like some of the sort of smaller disasters that happened. Yeah, when was it turnable? Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:21
Speaker
Just curious. My impression is, and that's what I like about the shows, it just sort of raises those kind of issues and different perspectives but doesn't necessarily force a viewpoint on the
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah, on the audience in in in which I find is quite different to a lot of the shows you watch now, which you feel like they're really trying to push an agenda, you know, they're saying this is wrong and these characters are a right and they're not just giving you all the perspectives through the different characters and and they use or philosophize, you know, in your own head about it, which is, you know, yeah, they do that on Star Trek. You supposed to know who the goodies and the baddies are. Whereas in Star Trek, it can be a bit
00:16:06
Speaker
Great. Yeah, it's a bit blurred sometimes, isn't it? And then I think they kind of do the same thing later on as well in that they don't. So this is why I've written this, it's one of these long sentences again, you have to bear with me. If they hadn't interfered, right, the accident would never have happened. But if they hadn't interfered, the accident would have happened.
00:16:35
Speaker
Wait, hang on. If they hadn't interfered, the incident wouldn't have happened. Also, if they hadn't interfered, the accident would have happened. Also, if they had interfered, the incident second loop round wouldn't have happened. Yeah. I don't know, because it sort of is playing to
00:16:54
Speaker
you know, the prime directive and should you interfere to try and help when you think something is going on that's wrong or that's going to cause others pain? And it doesn't really answer the question because they caused the accident, but they stopped the accident. And I kind of love that you can see the both sides of the coin and then you're left to just consider. Yeah, that prime directive question is definitely left unresolved, or I think as you say, it's kind of
00:17:24
Speaker
Open-ended. Jamie? Well, I... I just was like... They violated the Peron Directive before knowing that they did it. And by the time they knew they did it, you know, it was already done, if that makes sense. So I'm a bit like... I feel like you should be accountable for things that you knowingly, deliberately do. You know...
00:17:54
Speaker
in terms of deliberate action. And so having gone there and just by being sucked into a temporal subspace fracture, is that the term, that they didn't know about without knowing about it, that was the point of violation. And like they couldn't do anything about it. They were unwilling and unwitting actors at that stage.
00:18:14
Speaker
And so once you've sort of violated it, is there any sort of protocol about what you do? Is it just get out or is it try and do everything you can to make sure that such violations you do isn't harm causing? Because those can lead folk down to different strands.
00:18:34
Speaker
I think both, they had Tom arguing at the start for interfering, even before they knew. Oh yeah. Tom doesn't think the temporal directive should drive people at all. He disagrees with it mostly because his dad was into it, apparently. Family issues. I just had a horrible realization, but it's not about Star Trek, but there's a choice of the power is going to go off. And even though I charged my laptop, I would probably then lose
00:19:03
Speaker
internet. But let's powerhead. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Would it? We'll keep going. You don't have to plug into. No, no, they have rolling power cuts. Sorry, I just had that horrible. How do they happen out there? It depends. I mean, here they've been happening about twice a day for two hours at a time. But it's normally like six to eight, maybe sometimes during the day earlier, and there might be one like
00:19:30
Speaker
I don't know. Should we, you know, for the viewers benefit, say what country you're in? Oh, yes, I'm in South Africa. Beautiful. There's a problem with delivering power. So, yeah, so that's when they there's a kind of ominous scene, there's a time bomb under every street. Then we just see back to Keir's quarters and she's getting very stressed. She's sorry. God bless you.
00:19:58
Speaker
But she's had some kind of telepathic experience that she's trying to share with Neelix, I think. Who isn't particularly supportive initially? Like, there can't be anything. What are you talking about? And almost as a vehicle. And I don't know. I thought it had been established beforehand that her folk can listen to messages and it would telepathically. And it stands to reason from that that there might be more there? Yeah, he would have been skeptical.
00:20:28
Speaker
He wasn't particularly supportive. I was like, you're being a real dick here, Nelius. Shame. Yeah, I know, I know. But yeah, she's obviously grappling with this. Then we go back to the planet and Tom finds that timepiece, which I guess is going to drop up again. And it's frozen at the time of the
00:20:47
Speaker
destination or explosion. And then he has a brief experience where he, I guess, how would you describe it? He sees a different scene in front of him, far from being in this like absolutely clouded dot ruin of a place. He finds himself in a sunny, crowded, very friendly sort of space with children running around and playing and adults going about their business and
00:21:15
Speaker
ivy hanging off walls and things which is entirely different to where he is and that happens a couple of times and the first two times everyone's like you've been there the whole time and this is a bit of a weird thing so he's been there the whole time that he's experiencing the temporal disturbance and then it happens and apparently he vanishes from where he was and Janeway has sort of sucked into it as well
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. So he, when he kind of returns, they, uh, Milano's gowns him with the track board. I think as you can tell that his nervous system is in temporal flux. Um, and then two of up realizes that the chain reaction probably run in subspace. And so that, uh, I mean, I like that. I think he really said it, but very subspace fractures floating like icebergs across the plant, which again, if it was kind of visual description, I think later on, they kind of say he must've just been able to look into one or something before he was actually taken.
00:22:13
Speaker
one. And then Jamie realizes what's going on. So she tries to beam them out to make sure we don't enter one of these fractures. Okay, that's too late. Yeah, I think they say something like he was just in the entryway. Yeah. Of the fracture. And that's why they could still see him that time. But then they're pulled right in when they go back in time.
00:22:39
Speaker
And so essentially, they've gone back in time. That is what's happening, right?
Janeway and Paris: Pre-Explosion Planet
00:22:44
Speaker
That seems obvious, but I was like, it hasn't already been explained that way because of subspace fractures, icebergs. I was like, essentially, they've just gone back in time, I think. I think that's what they mean, because she generally sort of refers it to that in that way later on, doesn't she, when she's trying to explain to those. It's not like a parallel existence. I think it's back in time.
00:23:12
Speaker
And then we have this... So Tom and Jane, we are back on the planet, but the pre-explosion planet. We meet that little kid who reacts very badly to their arrival. Yeah, wow. He's very cute. He does say that they're devils and it's like... Demons, yeah. Demons, yeah. And they don't look that dissimilar as a species to the folk who were there. I mean, there's...
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah, out of nowhere, I guess. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but leave aside a bit of, you know, spatial apparition. And if you sort of ignore that, they don't look like a completely different species. Although I do love the fact that Janeway spends an entire cover story about them being from Calto province because of the fact that a guard takes the piss out of their uniform as being a bit formal, even for Calto province.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, she already tries to, she spits a whole kind of story, which we, yeah, I guess emerges at the time. But I didn't like that little line where the security guy is trying to get rid of the kiddies. Like have a confection bar, which I just thought was funny. Go have a sweet toy.
00:24:24
Speaker
I did make a note of that whole scene actually because I yeah I love the language it's hilarious and also mostly because it reminds me of like middle class 50s kind of like run along young fellow have a protection bar. That's a really good point actually. He's really channeling a universal policeman. Because right at the end they kind of say they're a pre-warp civilisation.
00:24:49
Speaker
So like pre-warp, 1950s, I don't know, that kind of makes sense. I would say really quite enjoyed Daneway's work. In this day and age, it can only be described as gaslighting of the young kid. Like, they appeared out of nowhere. What are you talking about? We just came around the corner. That is true. That is going to be traumatised. It is, but he also does some good detective work and like digs into their backstory and finds out that they're clearly lying about something.
00:25:17
Speaker
I like him. I'm impressed by him. He stands up to the gas lighting. I wonder what ever happened to him now. Yes. I'm sorry. I don't do any research about the actors or you'll have to listen to Delta flyers for that information. Then Tom is drawn to that like display and I guess he finds the timepiece that he found on the other side of the iceberg for a little bit of praise. And at the time counting down to
00:25:46
Speaker
the time that he knows the explosion is going to happen. So they realize the world is going to be destroyed tomorrow. Tomorrow. So then we go back to Voyager and we hear a bit of Chakotay's log, still no sign of Tom and Jami. And then we see Harry giving that
00:26:02
Speaker
explanation. Sorry, this is not a video of what happened. Anyone else laugh? The subspace fact is a big here and narrow here. Yeah, when he did his like, uh, hand signals, if he was giving a PowerPoint presentation. I will not hear a word against 1997's most beautiful man's PowerPoint presentation technique. I will not hear a word against it. Um, as he's explaining, he's like, hw strategic mindscape architects would have that man in an instant.
00:26:33
Speaker
Um, but I mean, there was a lot of techno stuff here, so I don't know how far you went into it all, but Harry and Blarner believe that Tom and Janeway entered in the narrow end of the subspace fracture. Um, and so they realized that they, they exist in a place a few hours before the explosion. Um, and two months. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Two bucks. Like cause he's noticed Janeway, he's like, well,
00:27:02
Speaker
Captain will probably activate your subspace beacon, and then Harry Kim's like, well, we're counting on it.
00:27:07
Speaker
And he describes a plan to listen for the signal and widen the fracture, even though they don't actually know how to widen the fracture, but they can listen. I've already had to listen to that a few times. It's different watching and understanding and watching and being able to then talk about it. It was like, what happened? I just learned that all the sort of fantasy science side just washed over me a little bit. Next, we're in the sick bay. And I did love, even in his first line from the doctor, just,
00:27:38
Speaker
Hmm. I mean, I can't do it. Oh my goodness. He's just so funny. I know. So first of all, he's like, you guys haven't been registered with me. You know, I can't look at your brain. It's not on file. Didn't didn't Starfleet carry out protocol when you guys are on board. And then he successfully finds out that his domain has been extent expanded, not just to undocumented
00:28:04
Speaker
aliens from the local quadrant, but also an entire additional ship's crew. And you sort of sense that he keeps asking Kez to make sure she shuts him down once they're finished. That's all he's worried about. Every time he gets a little bit more nervous about the situation. And yeah, he
00:28:26
Speaker
clearly resentive but also his bedtime manner is just yeah and at the end he's like you have the healthiest brain of anyone I've ever seen of your species you have the only brain of anyone I've ever seen of your species go home get some street drink plenty of fluids yeah I mean help the brain everyone should drink plenty of fluids exactly I mean he's got some very good lines there which you've you've given bed to
00:28:52
Speaker
he finds out that they haven't registered their medical details, the marquee haven't, but the captain has disappeared. He really just is like, just like shot me down yesterday. He takes it also personally for hologram. Well, I've got to say I sired completely with the doctor in this instance. I'm like, I would be outraged if I was the medical, you know, director, you know, and that no one had
00:29:18
Speaker
provided a whole load of people, a whole extra crew, aliens, no medical records, no screening, no quarantine, they'd all just turned up on the ship. Like, who knows what kind of infections and outbreaks and things they go, oh, this is, I mean, this is very, like, mobile medical, medical screening. I don't wonder who's outraged.
Humor and Character Insights: The Doctor and Kes
00:29:41
Speaker
That is true. That's true. Um, I did like, uh, yeah, he had some funny lines there. He also said you have a lovely brain. Um, but he cares. And then that's drink plenty of fluids. I think was very funny. I feel like that was a dig at doctors. Cause you know, when you go to the doctor and they don't, you know, they're like, are you just stressed or just drink, drink loads of water, drink loads of water, which is to be honest, why I don't grow the doctor. Don't follow my lead.
00:30:05
Speaker
But I'm always like, they're not gonna be able to tell me anything. I don't know. That line always reminds me whenever you hear someone say, drink plenty of fluids. And I use it too. The scene and I think it must be like the Big Bang Theory or something with Sheldon Cooper says, of course I drink fluids. What else would I drink? Solids? That's a good point. It's a funny phrase. That is true. You could just say, you know, drink a lot of water.
00:30:35
Speaker
So let me head back to read back on the planet's pre-explosion. And I noticed that Janeway and Paris have found new clothes to try and blend in. Sexy outfits. Oh, yeah. Sorry. That colour scheme. Wow, yeah. I love red, yellow, and red. Ill-fishing said they look like tourist t-shirts, but also announced they're not from around there. I really liked some of the subtler touches of how they made them wear the local garb.
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the fashion situation in this particular episode is fascinating to me because number one, they all wear, it's not like they're similar types. They wear the exact same garments, like with the corset and the layers of stripe of the same colors.
00:31:22
Speaker
which kind of suggests they have a uniform for the whole people. And the other thing, which is hilarious, is that then they give the old uniforms to the shopkeeper who puts them in the window and everybody stares at them like they're the most amazing outfits they've ever seen. Oh, I missed that, but probably because I was taking you some notes. But yeah, that is very interesting. I didn't actually notice they were all wearing, but just the red, brown,
00:31:49
Speaker
yellow colour scheme. There's too many warm colours there for me. Oh, this is when, I guess, this is when the captain and Tom have that interesting discussion on the Prime Directive. And we learn more about Tom's dad, father. Yeah, yeah. Without much other than he views his father's dictates negatively, but that Jane way independently of his dad sort of agrees with them strongly.
00:32:20
Speaker
And you wonder, like, as you said, I think, does Tom disagree with his dad because he's his dad? Because he would genuinely act differently. Then they encounter that kid again who, in my notes, I say, who's been sleuthing. I don't know why that word came to mind. Sleuthing. Oh, yes, he has, though. But he's busted their story wide open. But Tom manages to scare him off by saying, you know, maybe we are demons or threatening to eat him.
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah, which is always a good way of getting rid of a child who thinks you may be a subject of demonic possession. Yeah, I think Tom has a great line in that when the kids say, well, there were only two people who arrived on the transport, I checked, and they had a child with them. So I know it wasn't you. And they say, it was us, that was us, you're wrong. He says, well, then where's the child?
00:33:12
Speaker
We ate him. I will eat you too if you don't piss off basically. Oh my gosh, your guy's memory is amazing. Anyway, that's a lie. I just really like that line. I just love the way he delivers as well. We ate him. It's a great line. It's great comic delivery timing. Then I think they actually see the Paleric energy conduits under the street or running alongside the street.
00:33:38
Speaker
that's what happened next and that's I feel like inspires some creative problem solving from the both of them and they kind of kind of land on the question or hypothesis sort of maybe they can use the polaric energy or power to get them back
00:33:52
Speaker
So that means they're going to head straight to the power station, I guess. I'm not sure that would be my first. Yeah, but at the power station they find themselves, but when they get there, there's a demonstration going on and there's, first of all, some police
00:34:08
Speaker
making tokenistic efforts to hold people back with pseudo-trumptions and then one of the policemen decides he's had enough and just takes what is the closest thing to a machine gun I've seen on a Star Trek episode and just fires it up in the air indiscriminately and then someone in what feels like the only time I ever heard of this happening in Star Trek sparks the skipper out with one punch
00:34:35
Speaker
Yeah, she gets taken down. January gets one-shotted. Yeah, so they line up in this melee of protesters pushed back by security and I guess they get
00:34:47
Speaker
What's the word? I don't want kidnapped by these protesters. Well, theoretically the protesters are rescuing them from the police, but then the protesters decide. These don't look like typical folk from Calto province.
Investigation: Subspace Fractures
00:35:01
Speaker
To use your French pronunciation of melee or mille as my point, maybe they consider them to be potential
00:35:17
Speaker
Great accent. In general, it's provocatrice. And yeah, they start questioning them and getting stuck into them. Before that, we go back to Voyager. I also noticed the kid is still spying on them, but he doesn't get caught up in them. Fuck us. Sorry, I don't know what's happening with my cabinery. So we're back on Voyager in engineering, and we see that Belan and Harry have come up with a solution that can widen the pressure.
00:35:47
Speaker
But this Polaris generator has limitations. You can only use it once per location. So they can't just re-charge it and use it again in the same spot. And they've also developed those great anti-Polaric field bangles, ombands, whatever, to repel the fractures. Yeah, the jewelry. And then Keza Neelik's into engineering. And Keza's already insisted that she needs to go with them on this rescue mission, or my way mission.
00:36:19
Speaker
Anything to add there? Only that, I did find in places this one was a little bit more slow moving than some of the others. So that's my long winded way of saying, no, I don't have much to add. Yeah, I gotta say, this was more like, I guess, just, I thought about like, it's just kind of action. Or, I mean, like, when I say action, I mean, like, I didn't have a lot of emotional connection to this episode.
00:36:47
Speaker
That's just me, obviously. Not quite as engaging as some of the other ones. I guess they were just getting going. I feel like they were finding their feet a little bit. Yeah. And sort of bonding as a crew cast, I guess it's called. Yeah, I mean, so I don't feel I'm just kind of reviewing what happened because I didn't actually have a lot of notes apart from that, although I always have some lines that I like. So let me back on the planet, pre-exposure, so the
00:37:16
Speaker
That's how I'm defining a pre and post. Jamie and Tom are being held by Penaar, Mikael and Nai Turla. I'm sure the pronunciation is wrong. That is very good. Yeah, I've forgotten all their names. I know, I've already done. Nai seems very suspicious that they are those Aja and Teprokavogtiers. Aja and Teprokavogtiers. And that's not the Neil Gibson guy.
00:37:43
Speaker
Oh, he's one of them, yeah, the blonde guy. The blonde guy is the leader, but the other guy is very suspicious. Because they think that they've been sent by the government to infiltrate them. Sus AF is how he views them. Yeah. And they're not buying Janeway's story. Because I guess they believe that they must have been in the power facility because they've scanned them for caloric ions and their levels are so high that they've either
00:38:10
Speaker
being at the power station or being at the site of a disaster bigger than they've ever had in their history. Which you're like, again, it's a premonition. Yeah. But again, if you're in their shoes, it's actually, you know, you don't realize that aliens have infiltrated your society to save you from pseudo nuclear apocalypse. Yeah. It's a reasonable assumption, this bunch of eyeballs no one has ever known.
00:38:31
Speaker
You know, if you're in that situation on planet Earth and at a protest and a bunch of people who are biologically dissimilar or appear biologically dissimilar, you know, more just completely weird suddenly turned up out of nowhere. Would you think aliens or would you think, you know, potential government agents?
00:38:52
Speaker
And at this stage, Janeway is still trying to pretend they're from the Kaltu province. So she's still... Kaltu. Not Kaltu, Kaltu. Kaltu, sorry. So up come the guns, as I phrased it. Yeah. The guns from Pena and Nai. So Kaltu, the name of like the Vulcan... Oh, the game. Yes. The game of what?
00:39:14
Speaker
Vulcan game of logic or something? Did they play it on March on Voyager? I feel like I saw a lot of that under string. Yeah, and actually it being the name of the Vulcan game of logic is ironic as for the first time that I've seen him, Tuvok this episode gives up on logic at one stage. Yes, there is no reason to believe anything Kez says could have any basis in reality. However, I have no other option so I'm going to go with it.
00:39:42
Speaker
Well, he knows his limitations, and for that, I respect him, but you know that. So then we are back on the, we are on the planet, but it's a post-explosion world, so that's the away team rescue mission that's taking place, and Kez is there, so Chiquita has taken Kez. And she can really strongly sense the people. And at first, I think they mean like, I think Chiquita's like, yes, it's like walking through a grave, and she's like, no, I can almost touch them.
00:40:11
Speaker
I did enjoy, I can't remember if it's this scene or the other one where two books says, please elaborate. What sense them? What do you mean by that? Please explain more. Please elaborate. I think the main thing to take away from the scene was that they don't actually find any subspace fractures in the area and that means they're dissipating. So it's going to be harder to find the captain, Tom.
00:40:39
Speaker
Uh, then, but Harry starts picking up a signal from a commerce badge, but not a subspace beacon. And he leads the way to the source of the beacon. And like from here on, we kind of switching quite a lot between, you know, pre-explosion, post-explosion. Um, uh, but the next thing we, we back with Janeway and Tom and the, there's two men and Nye brings in the kid who's been speaking around.
00:41:07
Speaker
Um, sneaking, you said. Yeah. Well, sleeping, sleeping around. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. I thought for some reason I heard sleeping and I was like, that's, that's really, really bad. Um, and yeah, sorry. And he just blows their cover story out the water, doesn't he? I mean, he's like,
00:41:30
Speaker
But seriously, what sort of a rebel group worth its salt just listens to any random eight-year-old they pick up off the street? I mean, Jeepers Creepers, you didn't see Obi-Wan and the Jedi listening to this kid saying, those aren't the droids you're looking for or the Death Star you're looking for. He was just funny. I guess he wanted a show for his workings. I'm angry at the plot device. I'm sorry. It's just where I am.
00:41:56
Speaker
Okay, well he blows a cover story, but for that he's rewarded by being like imprisoned with Tom on the staircase. I mean, he's put in the naughty corner essentially like this. It's a good point about the prison. Little step. Yeah, literally sitting on the naughty step or something.
00:42:20
Speaker
And then we go back to the post explosion planet and one of the way team finds the combat and I thought this was really interesting. I don't know who said it, but
00:42:31
Speaker
the commerce badge will automatically activate when the casing is destroyed to help search for survivors. Yeah, I haven't knew that about stock trade badges. Stockly badges. They seem very, you know, either unconcerned or, you know, holding it together when they find the destroyed comp badges.
Janeway's Moral Dilemma and Resolution
00:42:52
Speaker
I think I might be a little bit more upset myself about the destroyed comp badges because it doesn't bode well, does it?
00:42:57
Speaker
No, it doesn't. But that that is that was interesting. I think the term is couplet of dialogue. I don't know if the plan is like, I guess that means they record an explosion. And to me, it only means they're combat just recording the explosion. I suggest we search for other tangible evidence. So here's maybe that's denial. Or maybe that's logic. I'm not sure. Hmm.
00:43:22
Speaker
But it is annoying when people leap to conclusions and you're like, do we actually have data for that? Well, maybe I'll get annoyed with that in my work. Then we're back to the planet pre-explosion. And I think they find Tom and Jamie's tricorders.
00:43:43
Speaker
leading to more questions. And I have to say, Janeway is a ridiculous cover story. Buying property. You need to survey houses with these. They're house surveying devices. I mean, good thinking on the spot, but...
00:43:58
Speaker
I would feel like in our space, we might need a more elaborate cover story, but maybe... Well, hey, this is a pre-warp civilization, although it's not true after that, that then January is just like, I'm dropping it. I'm going nuclear and trying to see if I can commit. I'd like, fuck the prime directive. It's fucked anyway. I will tell all and see if I can commit some, and obviously they don't believe it for a moment.
00:44:22
Speaker
I'm a bit like, surely, surely, if you're a Starfleet captain with a comms badge and a gun, you could demonstrate somehow that, you know, you were you were an alien of some description, like scan my gene code or something like that. I guess she's still holding it. Oh, sorry, go ahead. What? No, I think I've
00:44:43
Speaker
was going to say what you mentioned earlier that she does say like she's got a tricorder that she could use to prove it but then they won't now touch that because it might be a weapon and it turns out her fuck the prime directive as you so eloquently put it there was a rationale for doing that it turns out later on that she explains to Tom
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah, we have had an impact on the explosion because the explosion would have been a different time period. The reason it happened when it did is because we arrived here and we moved up the plan. And so by that logic, they should now interfere to try and rectify the changes they've already made.
00:45:31
Speaker
Yeah. Very confusing. And I think she takes to that cover story and the prior directive for quite a long time in the face of... Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Mainly about child budding journalist, because it turns out, I think his name is LaTica. LaTica. LaTica. LaTica. He's a budding journalist. And him and Tom have a little bonding moment on the naughty step.
00:45:57
Speaker
And then Tom's like, I'm sorry. And the kid is like, why? Because his career is about to be short. Yeah, he's about to potentially be the reason why this kid's entire civilization goes up, seared in a polaric apocalypse. Yeah.
00:46:19
Speaker
So then we find out a bit more about Pinar and his group of patriots, they called, I think, and they believe their energy has potential to destroy the entire world. And they feel like they have growing support in their movement and the company's energy companies, I guess, become afraid of them. And they have a plan.
00:46:39
Speaker
Which is due to begin. But it is clear that it's due to start at 400 rotations tomorrow, which they know is the, I guess, piecing things together. And then there's that sudden kind of telepathic link between Kes and Janeway. She's like, she's there. Yeah, it's sort of ironic because
00:47:02
Speaker
That telepathic link will be the reason why, to a greater or lesser extent, they are aware of the fact that Janeway is there later on in the episode and continue trying to search for her. But also, the way in which things turn out at the end
00:47:21
Speaker
It is the one capacity of the cruise which has most doubt cast on it at the end, because rather than everyone remembering, well maybe I'm jumping ahead, how much value it bought and how actually her telepathic powers worked,
00:47:41
Speaker
At the end, you've got Kez having some sort of link and being the only one who actually knew what happened, coming into the crew and saying, oh, actually, I'm going to give it away. So let's carry on where we were. Sorry. Yeah, they kind of, and at that point, Janeway decides to be honest and gives her proper name and rank. So she says I'm the captain of the starship. Yeah. But I am from Janeway. Yeah. Meanwhile,
00:48:12
Speaker
are back, you know, in the future, I guess. Kids can feel their presence and knows that they've been in that specific area. So, to go to, it's like, you know, what does them start setting up the equipment? And we go back to pre-time. Well, I'm getting confused. And Jayway's contending with the truth. And Tom is actually a bit upset, you know. The kid is thrilled because the kid's like, I told you so, or I'm not sure what his exact line is, but he's like, he was right.
00:48:41
Speaker
And Janeway tries to warn about the explosion because she thinks the Patriots are going to cause the explosion, I guess, at that point. But the Patriot League is not buying Janeway's explanation. And the rescue crew managed to establish contact with Janeway through the commerce badge, but the commerce badge goes off in front of everyone, so it's confiscated.
00:49:01
Speaker
And then you just see them left behind on the table as everyone's leaving the room and you're like, oh no. Well, that's how I guess. Oh, well, no, I was, I was, I was like, oh no, I was, you know, relieved because you, you realize that point. Ah, they were separated from their comms badges. Then there's a chance that they survive. I mean, realistically, you know, they're going to survive, but you would say, yes, that's how they survive because their comms badges may have been destroyed, but they weren't. Ah, yes. Yeah. That's a good point. Um,
00:49:33
Speaker
So now I think we are heading towards the power facility. They are being, I guess, held at gunpoint and they've been, Janeway and Paris all being forced to help the Patriots break into the facility because they try to get Janeway to, you know, at this point, I am so disappointed in the response when Janeway, you know, she goes up, she's very brave and she says, I am a hostage.
00:49:59
Speaker
These men or whatever she says. Anyway, and then the one lone guard basically just sort of stumbles backwards. She's useless. And then, and not only that, but then the protester shouts at Janeway, their deaths are on you. Oh, yeah. This is when Tom dives in front of the kid. Yeah, Tom takes a bullet for the kid, doesn't he, in that scene?
00:50:28
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, also, sorry, just to go back a little bit, I think Tom, this is when we kind of have that discussion as they're walking along together, being forced towards the part where she, you know, why she went against the prime directive. And she's like, well, we broke it just by being here. And Tom is like, what? And then she explains the shift in their timeline or schedule, you know, this sabotage or whatever they're going to. You can say it in the episode. You have to put it in the title.
00:50:57
Speaker
I just feel that they're trying to position Tom as not a bad guy by the end of the episode, hence jumping in front of a bullet. Yeah, he has a character. But I feel like Tom speaks for all us laymen again, because you're saying we're responsible for an explosion, even though it occurred before our ship arrived, which was a lot like the last episode, right? When he's in the ready room, not the ready room or rather, and he's like,
00:51:26
Speaker
I can't remember what he says. He's like, oh, am I being stupid? Or am I wrong? And they're like, yes, you're wrong, Tom. Do you remember that? But we had that moment. He's kind of being positioned as like the dumb blonde, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. He just failed the temporal mechanics, you know, 101. I think he's still the equivalent of the face from the A team. Yeah. But again, Jamie's answer is kind of
00:51:50
Speaker
A bit short. She's like, yes, but because we traveled back in time before the explosion. So it's like, I still don't quite understand, but I can't really wrap my head around. Can I travel? Yeah, it's a weird one. And Tom argues that it would have happened anyway.
00:52:05
Speaker
But Janeway sees it as their problem to solve. It would have happened anyway, because it wouldn't have happened, because it would have happened. Yes, Janeway, what you said at the beginning of the episode. Well, no, I do follow Janeway and I do agree with Janeway to this point, because those protester people, they were going to do it in a week. And because of Janeway, they decided to move up to the next day. And so Janeway and Tom have directly impacted a
00:52:32
Speaker
the change in when the protesters were going to sabotage the power plant. And as she says, like, you just don't know all the things that could have happened if they'd done it a week later, like, all the different, it might have been time for them to, the authorities to find them out and stop it going ahead or, you know, multiple other factors that could have been involved. So I kind of, kind of soliologic, kind of agree with that. But now it's entirely your responsibility because, I mean, she didn't mean, obviously didn't mean to do it, but still,
00:53:02
Speaker
they're responsible. Yeah, no, I mean, I don't, I don't disagree, but it's just interesting conversation where she explains herself, I guess, and what's happening. Yeah, it is a shame because, like, as Jamie said earlier, I do rather enjoy the one, the element, if you imagine this, she didn't really have an explanation. She just wanted to fuck the prime director. Just decided to say fuck it. Police. Yeah.
00:53:31
Speaker
So back on Voyager, they're running out of time. And I think they come up with a theory that she might go back to the source of the explosion, because that's, I can't remember exactly why, but they're debating on whether she would do that or not, because that would violate or could violate the prime director. Do you not think that she's in her character? Yeah, she does not. And she shows immense personal growth to go beyond that, I think. Yeah. And as a jakota, he was like, well, I would. So he kind of
00:54:00
Speaker
He sets the course of action on what he would do, I think. But I think, too, there seems to be a little bit of nominalism to him because he says, I would. But I think there's also an acknowledgement that he's a different character to Captain Janeway in the D2 walk. So he's effectively saying that I don't necessarily think that Janeway necessarily would, but it is possible. Yeah.
00:54:26
Speaker
Maybe it's like a setting up sort of pre-code as well to showing actually how alike Janeway and Jacote really are and you know they have their sort of moment later and later seasons where they sort of get a bit closer you know and it's setting out for that saying actually they're not that different after all.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's, yeah, like, his natural instinct was that. Yes, that doesn't last very long. They're flirtatious. I wonder if the directors, they ever, they ever considered a Janeway 2 book. A fair. Yeah, that would have been, well, I guess he was married.
00:55:04
Speaker
That would have taken, I mean, I haven't really watched much of this, but I feel this would take this in a direction it never was going to go. They're very close, but they just, I do like it because I do like that depiction, I think, as we discussed before, friendship, especially male-female friendship. Yeah. Which, I don't know, I don't see, well, you see a lot of now, but maybe at the time.
00:55:29
Speaker
I think I, I kind of, I do not, for the record, that was a statement that does not represent my views and was said to deliberately send up those who do feel that way. Um, I will be handing myself in for reeducation shortly. Um, I think, sorry, we covered some of this a bit because I got a bit lost in my notes, but, um,
00:55:59
Speaker
This is actually what we see. They're like trying to get into the facility and this Tom dives away and they, but, um, so Jamie has to leave Tom with Latica and she pursues the Patriots into the power plant as I'm calling it. And she kind of can see that they're getting ready to sabotage.
00:56:18
Speaker
Well, they can't take some kind of device. We don't actually know what they're planning. It looks like sabotage, but it isn't that. What is it that they're planning? And this is, I think, the really sort of clever plot twist at the end. In everything that they have been doing to try and prevent the detonation, they've actually been bringing it to pass as the actual trigger for the detonation.
00:56:44
Speaker
isn't going to be jane way and co isn't going to be uh protesters and co sabotaging the plant it's going to be the subspace fracture being broken open by the star trek team device in that scene
00:57:03
Speaker
which then triggers the explosion and kills everyone as they try and rescue Janeway, who was caught in the explosion caused by her own presence there before she even got there. Which is nominal and tenuous, but hey, let's use another temporal loop that doesn't have a causal chain in it as a plot device twice in three episodes. But yeah, sorry, go on. Then that leads us to the denouement.
00:57:32
Speaker
There's a lot of questions about this, but I'd just like to add another one. See, I'm just wondering what caused the final
00:57:42
Speaker
final sort of twist of fate, as it were, that she took her phaser, whatever it was, trifles it, I don't know, and fired it at the hole they were trying to create to rescue her to stop the explosion, because presumably in an alternate reality where the explosion did go off, she decided not to do that. So what changed in this one to make her do that? I'm forever curious. That's a good question, because we're assuming that there was a previous version
00:58:11
Speaker
of time. Maybe the previous time that she was there she didn't know that, yeah, there are sort of some temporal logics and causal chain logics that don't work.
00:58:25
Speaker
But the previous time she was there, she didn't know that them breaking in to save her from the temporal loop caused by the explosion that she caused before being there was caused by rescue attempt to rescue her on the temporal loop.
00:58:52
Speaker
Whereas this time round, she was aware that her own rescue attempt was the thing that triggered the apocalyptic, polaric apocalypse. And therefore decided... But you know what? Can I just jump in there? They do have episodes in Star Trek where you realize, and the crew realizes, they're in this loop that they can't get up. I don't think this is one of those episodes. I don't think it's meant to be.
00:59:20
Speaker
I feel like maybe something else caused the explosion, but then they're going to rescue, cause the explosion, a different way to heart would have happened. Because the whole thing, this one is where she seals it with the phaser, that sort of entrance portal that the team are trying to blast in, where she seals that. What happens then is
00:59:47
Speaker
that means the explosion doesn't happen then or at all, which means there's no subspace fracture, which means she goes back to where she came from, temporally, originally, because causally, the explosion was more than ever happened. No, no, I understand what happened today, but I hadn't considered that maybe they had been through this loop a couple of times, but I had kind of assumed, well, I hadn't really thought about her. Well, yeah, because the first time this happened, because
01:00:15
Speaker
when they first arrived in the Arabian episode at the planet, they could see that the explosion did happen. Yeah, no, I know the explosion. So it makes you, yeah, it makes you think, well, what about it? How did it change this time? That is a really good point. And I just hadn't thought of the episode like that, I guess. But my only interjection or comment here is like when I was looking how to spell the Patriots names,
01:00:38
Speaker
It was a review for the episode. And the guy was like, this is one of the weakest temporal time travel, whatever. And I didn't read any further because I was like, do not say anything bad about Star Trek.
Kes' Character Arc and Conclusion
01:00:48
Speaker
It's still got a rating of seven or something. But I was like, so there could be some holes in this episode, but we might tie ourselves up to nuts trying to figure it out. So.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yes, but you can't have things being set up, I guess, but on the team trying to find the flashpoint of the explosion and finding it and setting up the equipment. Kez is there. She's like, this is the right spot.
01:01:16
Speaker
This is where she died. I think is the line she has. Yeah. You have Jane Lee in the facility and she's got her weapon and she's like seeing the Patriots and she thinks they're preparing to sabotage or create an explosion. But actually I think what's interesting is that one line because she has, she gets a weapon or she has a weapon and she points it at the Patriots and she's like,
01:01:41
Speaker
insisting that they just don't do anything until the time has passed the 400 rotations. And he's actually like,
01:01:47
Speaker
he hints that she's more of a risk to them and the planet, just with her weapon, because if she fires that, that will... So it's almost like a premonition of... She's actually bringing the danger into the situation. I just realised that since we were talking. When he points that out, I remember thinking the first time I watched this, that, oh, that's how it happened. This is the tragedy. It's because of that, and that's the twist, because it's a weapon that somehow goes off.
01:02:14
Speaker
But in fact, that isn't the twist. There's another twist. And yeah, when they're talking about it, then they see the evidence of them trying to cut through subspace or whatever they're trying to do. And then she has that, I guess, moment of realization of which like, it's a rescue that's going to cause the, the annihilation.
01:02:40
Speaker
I thought I wrote down the line. It's like the first nightmare, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And rescue attempt. That's attempt. That's what sets it off. And so she asks for her weapon back as she thinks in, and she manages to close the hole. And on the other side, they try to maximize generator. I'll put whatever I'm trying to come through. Like, no, stop. But Janeway succeeds. And that's,
01:03:08
Speaker
as you describe, takes us back as if nothing has happened. So we're back on the bridge.
01:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, so it's the familiar plot device of actually I'm not going to try and pretend like I can summarise the temporal loop caused by stuff that didn't happen when you weren't there because it did happen before you were there, after you were there. Because I mean, I don't know if you've seen the Spicer sketch, but who was the guy who directed Inception? Do you know Christopher Nolan?
01:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, there's a famous sort of sketch by Michael Spicer, which I'm going to paste in here, which is basically that moment you realize you don't understand the plot in a Michael, in a, what was the name of it? Christopher Nolan movie, which is basically that.
01:04:03
Speaker
But I did like the way you kind of see, you're like reliving the scene. It's almost exactly the same as what we saw in the beginning. But Kes does enter the bridge and she, Jamie, as you said earlier,
01:04:20
Speaker
She gets me to look like a crazy person, she gets gaslighted by the universe. And I hate that. She has a huge story arc, so I don't know why I feel so sorry for her right now. But she insists on seeing visual confirmation that the planet is fine, and then she seems very relieved when she gets that confirmation. Yes, yes. The problem with Kess's story arc, right, I find, is that inevitably, whenever I rewatch Voyager,
01:04:49
Speaker
I'm unfortunately for Kes, because she's an excellent actress, but she always signals when she leaves, the incoming of Seven of Nine. And I love Seven of Nine. So you're basically like, Kes, get out. Oh my goodness, you're so mean. How can you be so mean? It's only because Seven of Nine is so good.
01:05:19
Speaker
She is good. It's only because Seven of Nine is tall that you prefer her. I don't think that's how JD decides which character on a TV show to be proposed. I mean, I'm sure when I was a kid, well, actually probably not the kid, but as an adult, I'm like, why couldn't they just keep both? I don't understand. I know a little bit more about them. There are direct demographic proportions, formulas that they follow, Red.
01:05:45
Speaker
They could dye one of their hair brown or something. I don't know. I wonder what happened. Maybe that they only really got seven of nine in because they found out Kes was leaving. I think I did a bit of- Her character got written out. She didn't choose to leave. I mean, this is what I remember when I did the steep dive COVID, Star Trek things, but take it with a pinch of salt. But I think they did it really well. And I mean, that can happen, right? There's no, I mean, it's not like,
01:06:12
Speaker
I don't think it's because they didn't like the character, but they wanted someone, a foil for Janeway, like another strong, or maybe, maybe not even strong, but someone who has some conflict, I guess. Whereas Kes, you can't really have conflict with because, I mean, anyone who has a conflict with her is basically a massive bully. Yeah. It's a bit too nice, isn't she? Sort of nice, nice of light. Apart from that one episode where she turns in
01:06:41
Speaker
to a sort of alter ego. Don't you tell me, oh my word. Oh, I still have internet. Okay. My dad has a, I don't know, maybe the internet's still on. I'm not sure how it works actually. But, and also have some lamps that are somehow attached to something. I don't know. But Jamie, did we cover everything in your notes?
01:07:05
Speaker
I think so, yeah. I'm going to pretend like I'm able to tell but actually they're like 100 metres outside and I wasn't able to actually get them because they're in the car. Hopefully I sounded well enough informed without them. You did. The only thing I was going to mention was that I happened to see the name of the next week's one.
01:07:27
Speaker
It's a great storyline and it comes repeat several times, but I hate it because it's really disgusting. Which one is it? Help. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. I'm leaving. Goodbye. Goodbye. Don't renew spoilers. You can't guess from that. It's been lovely. It's been lovely. It's been lovely. It's been lovely, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye
01:07:57
Speaker
in a disease-ridden way. Oh, is this that species? No, wait, we'll see. Yes. Yeah, I think you got it. Okay, interesting. I have to write. Sometimes I skip these ones. Oh, sorry, Jenny. No skipping or not. I'm teasing. But I don't think I had like a theme or overwhelming message. What about you, Jenny?
01:08:23
Speaker
Um, no, yeah, I think it's not, I mean, I enjoy them all. It's not my, but not one of my favorite ones. But I do love, as I mentioned, the whole like, them not pushing a learning, you know, didactic, you know, lesson on you, but more just like sharing the different point of views, like, you know, you have questions about nuclear power and questions about should you interfere and, you know, the negatives, if you infer the negatives, if you don't interfere, and then it leaves you to just philosophize.
01:08:54
Speaker
come to your own, or not even come to conclusions. Just consider all the different perspectives. I have noticed, I mean, I spent a bit too much time on Twitter recently, so I'm sure this is not reflective of the silent majority, as I call the rest of the world. But it seems like, oh, Jenny, yeah, like, as you say, a lot of shows now push a certain agenda or message, or you have to, you know, it's very clear. And then some people even react badly to seeing kind of
01:09:23
Speaker
bad or gray things on screen. They're like, well, this show is, I don't know, let's say sexist because someone in the show is sexist. It's like, well, that's.
01:09:36
Speaker
I mean, there are people in reality who are sexist. But also a storytelling documentary. I mean, it's probably better to show, you know, what happens. Because stories are part of how people learn and learn to deal with monsters to quit your game. And also turns out, even if you only watch stuff where people act nobly and justly, like in Star Trek,
01:10:01
Speaker
You can still grow up to be not a very good person, so what is the point of having only good characters on TV? I don't know. We consider good characters. But yeah, I just was curious because I couldn't really pick up a theme. I mean, I guess we believed in the Prime Directive, but that's not something that affects me.
01:10:26
Speaker
Well, I guess it's, I kind of see the prime directive is a little bit, if you work in science and you're doing things like randomized placebo clinical trials and things, and, you know, in medicine, perhaps you, you know, the people doing the trials aren't really supposed to know who's on placebo and who's not. But say you're doing like a cancer trial, and you know that half of the people on it, if it's state-state cancer are going to die.
01:10:52
Speaker
the others might not because they're not on the placebo. And it's that kind of element. And the same if you're doing, if you're a journalist, or you're observing, like, anthropological studies or animal behaviours, this whole element, I see the private directors a bit as an analogy of in science, how you need to not be
01:11:11
Speaker
you need to be objective and not interfere to gather information and to not affect the course of, I don't know, an experiment, I guess. Yeah, that is a really interesting, I hadn't thought of that, but that makes a lot of sense. I guess it's not quite the same. No, but it is the same. I mean, the clinical trials and journalism, or I think are very good, because I that's, yeah, I mean,
01:11:40
Speaker
You have to keep as a narrow line, I would imagine, but you have to try stick to it for the greater good, not for the individual benefit of a few people.
01:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I think like another example is they do have an episode that I think is much personal stuff I'm talking about actually, is that applies not in a Star Trek world that's to do with there's a there's like a tribe on this planet that has been protected from the rest of the planet, which is all modernized and you know, it's got has the industrial revolutions and all this stuff has gone on
01:12:14
Speaker
the tribe that's protected has had none of that and they live really simply and they've retained that history as well and then they accidentally
01:12:28
Speaker
break the barrier which protects them. And the more modernized group of people that the culture, they believe that they're going to go in and help them because they're going to give them education and medicine and modern medicine and all these things. But it kind of leaves it open as to actually that kind of interference is that going to be to the benefit of this
01:12:50
Speaker
this tribe, not necessarily. So it's a question of, you know, interference again, whether it's for good or not. Yeah, interesting questions. So many more episodes to watch as well. So yeah, I think this was quite short for us. Well done, everybody. Not that it has to be short, as I said, as a fan of podcasts, the longer the better for me. But Jamie,
01:13:21
Speaker
Well, maybe I can stop recording, but I think the next one will be on the 16th, because the 9th is one of my last days in Cape Town, so I'll be on holiday. I have a question. Are we going to do one if and when we all go to our friend's wedding and we'll all be in Australia together? Yeah, we can record in Australia. What's the word when you do a recording on? On location. On location, that's it, yeah.
01:13:49
Speaker
on the other side of the world. That would be so cool. Oh, and the next time we do this, Jamie and I will no longer be in Spain, we'll be in France. Wow, you're on location every episode. Brilliant. Okay, well, I'm gonna stop recording, but we don't have to hang up.