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Our Thoughts on the Phrase "Community Over Competition"
146 Plays2 years ago
In today's episode, we're brining you one of our hottest takes on the show so far, diving DEEP into the idea of "Community over Competition," and the concept of gatekeeping. Is it wrong to keep certain business strategies and tactics to yourself? Is it okay to ask another photographer for their locations? What is the best way to reach out for help when starting your business? We share our views about maintaining some level of privacy in your business, and even share some real life stories regarding this topic. We also share our love and passion for TRUE community building within the photography industry, and exactly what that looks like.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Art of Intention Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Art of Intention podcast with Beth and Ayla. Two best friends turn creative entrepreneurs. This is a place for us to discuss everything business, friendships, and faith, and occasionally more. We're so excited for today's episode. We think you're going to love it. Stay tuned.
Debating 'Community Over Competition'
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to the art of intention. Okay, here's the deal. This is gonna be a hefty episode with perhaps one of our hottest takes on the show so far. We're gonna be talking about the phrase community over competition, also known as sharing your business tip with others. Is it gatekeeping if you don't share with others or is that allowed? We get down to the nitty gritty of this topic and explain why we run our businesses the way we do.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yep. We both have some personal experiences and opinions as far as being asked to share our business secrets. And while we know there is definitely some truth to community over competition, we are also here to offer our opinion that you absolutely do not have to share everything about your business operations and you don't have to share anything that you just don't want to share.
Community News Segment
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. We're going to get right into it. We're going to jump quickly into our community news and then we'll go to town.
00:01:20
Speaker
So for our community news today, I found this amazing article that I'm really excited to share.
Ayla's Mobile Darkroom Project
00:01:26
Speaker
This is a story that takes place in the Middle East. So some of the names, I did my best on looking up how to pronounce them, but if anything is pronounced incorrectly, I apologize, but I wanted to talk today. I found this project and it's called the Sir Connie dark room fundraiser.
00:01:42
Speaker
And what it is, is basically there's this individual, her name is Sylvester Sully, and she opened up, this actually opened in 2019, but it is a mobile darkroom that is, it's a mobile darkroom school
00:01:58
Speaker
that is teaching kind of vulnerable and low-income children in southeast Turkey and Syria and it gives them access to learn about photography through a mobile darkroom so like traditional film photography in a darkroom she's basically got it set up on a little trailer
00:02:14
Speaker
that she takes to these low income and just you know high war zone well not high war zone but just like you know distressed areas for kids to learn some of the arts and i know what you might be thinking why does that matter with these kids but as someone who's gotten to bring
00:02:29
Speaker
arts and kind of media to underprivileged kids. It's amazing how much joy they find from it. So I found this really cool. If you kind of Google at all Sir Connie, it's spelled S I R K H A N E darkroom fundraiser, all kinds of stuff comes up about about it. You can see what the mobile darkroom looks like. You can see some of the photos that the kids
00:02:51
Speaker
have taken which is really cool it's so cool to see what they've taken through their their little eyes and then you can if you they have like a fundraiser in a campaign open if anyone is so inclined to do research and donate to them so you just google Sir Connie Darkroom and a main
00:03:09
Speaker
Like.org page will pop up with ways to get more information and to donate to them. But I thought that was just some nice wholesome news that somebody back in 2019. Oh, and the reason it popped up in my feed today is because they're looking to expand and put down like a more physical school for these kids to attend. So.
00:03:27
Speaker
Wow. Oh my gosh. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing about that. I'd never heard of that. That's so amazing. Oh, and I just love that. All right.
Sharing vs. Gatekeeping in Photography
00:03:38
Speaker
So today we are going to be making some waves with this episode, you guys. We already know that. And of course we're going to preface this with this is our opinion and you may have a different one. We are by no means sending hate out to anyone who holds a different opinion about this topic or anything like that.
00:03:54
Speaker
We are super open to hearing your thoughts on this as well, actually. But this is a topic that we feel pretty passionate about. And we think it's important that more than one opinion on this topic be heard and be shared. So that's why we're doing this today.
00:04:08
Speaker
Community over competition has become a popular, and let's face it, possibly overused phrase, mostly in the photography world. Essentially what this means is we, talking about photographers, are expected to help each other to the top. It means don't worry about competing with other up and coming photographers, but continue to thrive in your niche and just work together. And while there is truth to the idea of not worrying about your competition and focusing on your own work,
00:04:36
Speaker
Beth and I have observed that this can translate into telling others in the industry all of your strategies and knowledge and being called a gatekeeper if you don't do so. Yeah, right. So the original idea was that you would be building each other up, right? But to be completely honest, realistically and unfortunately, over time, it's translated to asking other photographers for business strategies to the point where it crosses boundaries.
00:05:02
Speaker
Right? So I mean like sharing photographers, I mean like asking photographers like where their shooting locations are, asking exactly how they do workshops, installed shoots, their exact camera settings, presets they use and more. And of course there's different things you can ask about but it's to the point where people feel like they're being taken advantage of.
00:05:21
Speaker
Basically they're asking to be told things that they should be going out and learning through proper channels. And I say the word should because this is what the photographers who are being asked for this information did.
The Dangers of Oversharing Business Secrets
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely see what you mean. There's definitely a line between getting advice here and there. I don't really have a problem with that, but then blatantly not doing your own research. Now for me personally, I've even gotten a few DMs about what I do as a photo editor and I truly don't mind answering a question or two. It really doesn't bother me if it's just a quick
00:05:58
Speaker
Hey, what about and that's really it. Not a problem at all. However, early in my career, I had some long conversations where I disclosed a lot about my business pricing, how I get clients, how I edit quickly file sharing, like everything.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I kept answering them because I thought I was being nice. And I was like, oh, it's so cool someone trusts me with my information. But looking back, I think I experienced that line. And it's not like I'm trying to keep any great secrets or anything like that. I just, there's better resources out there than being in somebody's DMs like that.
00:06:32
Speaker
That's a good point, too. Yeah, there are better resources out there sometimes than just going to the first person that you think you can ask. Anyway, so as you can tell already, we have thoughts. And what all of these thoughts really boil down to is this. Successful business owners have done a
00:06:49
Speaker
a ton of work to get where they are today. They've invested in education, equipment, they've spent time and money, sometimes even physical blood, sweat and tears for these things. I mean, think about like, okay, let's talk about like two candy companies, for example, or something like this.
00:07:06
Speaker
You don't have one going to the other and asking for their best recipes. They have to coexist and continue to be the best that they can be and continue attracting their ideal clients. Not to drag on too long, but personally, like for example, working in Hawaii, we have one of the strongest gatekeeping communities in the photo world, specifically on locations, and it's for a purpose.
00:07:27
Speaker
it's to protect the land and to keep the very few quiet spots left on the island from getting overrun because we have a huge problem with spots in Hawaii being trashed, whether it's by tourists or by people who come and work there. We have a big, big problem with that. And I'm going to be honest with you guys, I have never once asked for a location from another photographer here in Hawaii. Wow. And I never will. I will always go out and find spots on my own. And yeah,
00:07:54
Speaker
Honestly, there's like a couple of spots right now that I cannot find to save my life. I have gone on multiple four plus hour hikes and gotten to the end and been like, this is the wrong spot. Oh my gosh. And it's frustrating, but guess what? I know that all the photographers or the people that do know about those spots work just as hard, if not harder than I did. And I hope genuinely that they're enjoying the solitude that they deserve up there.
00:08:18
Speaker
I find comfort in knowing that as long as those spots are lesser known, the land is being protected and the wildlife there is at peace. So just know as we go into this that there are sometimes bigger reasons for people to be gatekeeping certain information or locations that you may not understand. So just let's respect each other as people and respect that gatekeeping is not always based in just selfishness.
00:08:42
Speaker
That's such a good point. And we're going to talk more about location specifically, but I feel like locations is just a really big one and a really important one. And it's not to say that you're not allowed to ask for help when first starting out as a photographer. In fact, it's pretty expected that you invest in education and get advice from people in the business. And there's endless resources to do this when you're starting out both paid and free.
00:09:07
Speaker
There's podcasts, there's YouTube, and so many more free resources out there. Those people that are putting these free resources out there are giving you permission to access their free information legitimately just out of the goodness of their hearts.
Valuing Professional Knowledge
00:09:22
Speaker
And just remember successful business owners, especially not especially, but also in the editing and photo world work really hard to get where they are. And anyone can do it if they put in the work and if it's their calling, okay, it doesn't help you in the long run. And this is a point we really want to make.
00:09:39
Speaker
It doesn't help you in the long run to get your information from others who worked really hard for it and just by asking to certain information for free. First of all, you're not valuing the other professionals time, the money and possibly even the physical work they put into learning these things for themselves.
00:09:55
Speaker
but it also doesn't reflect well on you and your business. Depending on what you're asking for and how you're asking, it can come off as entitled or disrespectful and you can be hurting or even ruining a potential relationship with a vendor or a colleague that you might've really wanted down the road. Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point. You want to be a trustworthy business owner right off the bat and like have some experience under your belt before you
00:10:21
Speaker
before you just go asking around because I totally understand how if you haven't touched this topic you're trying to get into, people are like, come on, at least know something.
The Guilt Trip of 'Community Over Competition'
00:10:31
Speaker
And you know what? Honestly, this might ruffle feathers. It can straight up just annoy people when you ask them for free information. Their time is money. And if you don't understand that, then
00:10:44
Speaker
Here's what we recommend. You go out there, do your best to scale your business by your own creativity, your own time, your own money, and your hard work.
00:10:52
Speaker
Go find your own locations, get your own clients and you'll quickly learn what that means. I have a feeling you won't just want to turn and tell somebody how to do exactly the same thing right off the bat. And kind of like Beth said, large scale companies aren't sharing their secrets. And again, it's not even like we're keeping secrets, but large scale companies aren't sharing all of their strategies or everything with each other or else they'd be making the same product.
00:11:16
Speaker
They are finding ways to stand out and to attract certain people all the time. That's really nothing new in business.
00:11:23
Speaker
Mm hmm. Exactly. Oh my gosh. That's real talk right there though. Um, and I know we can sit here and talk, you know, it's easy for us to do that, but for some of you, this may not really make sense. We empathize with that. We understand, or you may not see the harm that this, okay, we're going to call it community guilt trip because in reality, unfortunately that's what it's become. You may not see the harm that this community guilt trip can cause. So we're going to try to put it in realistic terms by giving some real life examples. So if you want to start off with that, maybe with your
Investing in Education vs. Free Advice
00:11:52
Speaker
thoughts on that.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So like Beth said, we've both experienced kind of reaching the point in our businesses where interactions with people have kind of made us stop and go, Oh, wait, I think I overshared. I think I was kind of taken advantage of and it doesn't feel good. And experiences like this will honestly make you shift your business to start protecting your time and money.
00:12:11
Speaker
I suppose honestly I'm pretty lucky. I haven't had to deal with this too much as being a photo editor, but I have had occasions where people reach out to me for expertise on my business. So for a bit of context, I took a specific course for photo editing. Curious on which one, message us on Art of Intention. I'm happy to tell you all about it because I really support the people who created it.
00:12:36
Speaker
But I took the course, I learned editing, I learned client relations, marketing, setting up workflows, building your website, like everything done for you kind of course. And you know what? I paid $900 for it. I have of course made that back in my almost three years of editing now, so it was worth it. But I do understand that's a bit of a price tag for an education that I was willing to make.
00:13:00
Speaker
Part of this course and part of paying for it means I'm a member of one for the course, but also a member of multiple private Facebook groups where their whole purpose is editors all in the group helping each other. Fellow photo editors getting business advice, Lightroom advice, and that's okay. People post questions in there all the time.
00:13:19
Speaker
One, because they all paid to be there, and two, everyone else in the group can choose how much or how little they want to reach out and help. And the expectation is that you're giving help in return. So that's the part of community that actually makes sense to me, is everyone
00:13:38
Speaker
being a community with each other, conversing with each other and actually helping each other out because we're all taking this course along together. So we all know each other's putting in the work. So the kind of questions that are asked in there is like, hey, this part of the course didn't really make sense. Or hey, I had this client interaction. What would you guys do? That I think is amazing. So I've had other people who had not taken any kind of course.
00:14:00
Speaker
reach out to me for some tips which like I said is fine to an extent but they kind of started asking more and more things and this isn't the exact conversation and I'm not that bitter about it but it kind of started as like hey you seem really successful are you editing full-time and at the time I wasn't and I was like hey no I keep it pretty part-time as I work a day job but I've liked doing it on the side and they were like oh well about how many clients do you have to make it part-time and at the time I said however I have like this many clients
00:14:29
Speaker
And they're like, okay, so how many galleries are you getting per week to maintain part time? And that's when I started to get more vague. I was like anywhere from this number and this number, anywhere from two to five. And they're like, okay, about how many images and about how are you editing them quickly? And eventually I was like, all righty, what is this? Can you at least tell me the point of this conversation?
00:14:50
Speaker
and so after that after certain amount of questions i recommend my course i say hey i took this course created by this person highly recommend it i can't say enough good things about it they just dive into everything from editing to building your business i highly recommend you check it out if this is something you're looking into doing
00:15:08
Speaker
And the biggest response, without fail, every time I've had this conversation is, I can't pay for that at the time. And that's, I understand. That is fair. I understand not everyone has the capacity to take the course I took. And I actually took a less expensive one out there. Like photography and education courses can definitely have a price tag.
00:15:30
Speaker
that doesn't mean I'm just going to regurgitate all the same information for free. I've even had people offer to pay me a small amount for an hour of my time like a mentor session but that at this time doesn't sit right with me because again all the information I've already paid for and gotten from someone who can explain it better than me and who has
00:15:51
Speaker
video recordings and classes and all this stuff that's so much better. So I even say like I'm not offering mentor sessions on it. Like I don't want to profit off of something that this other person has worked so hard to create and did a better job at. It's information that's literally already out there.
00:16:08
Speaker
If you're serious about starting a business, education comes first and you have to spend money to make money.
Redirecting Requests for Free Advice
00:16:15
Speaker
Heck, even if you absolutely have to start for free, like I said, there's so many resources on that before you go into people's DMs.
00:16:24
Speaker
It wasn't that bad of an interaction, but now I just have a bit of a limit on what I'll share before recommending whoever's asking to go elsewhere. If anyone is listening who has reached out to me and asked the questions, don't worry, I'm not mad at you or I don't think you did anything wrong. Just understand the point of my story is to highlight the fact that investing in proper education
00:16:49
Speaker
not just DMing someone on Instagram will set you up for success in your business. It's almost out of love that I redirect you somewhere else. Exactly.
Challenges of Copied Workshop Ideas
00:16:59
Speaker
Our whole point of this is to kind of bring back the original meaning of community over competition, drawing out what that means. And again, we'll talk about that more in a second, but the dynamic has unfortunately shifted from, Oh, if you don't give me what I'm asking for, you're a gatekeeper and you're going to be shunned or you're mean. You're not a nice person.
00:17:16
Speaker
but the truth is there's so much more to that and that's so unhealthy and it doesn't help you in the long run. It totally hits me in the heart hearing that from you and hearing you describe your interactions with that because for me the interaction that or really it was multiple interactions with one individual in particular that changed my mindset for good a few years ago.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, I was in the beginning of starting a series of really successful workshops in a small town I was living in at the time and another photographer who had never spoken to me before I think we maybe knew of each other but would never had any interactions they asked to speak to me under the guise of wanting to rent something from my rental collection that I did also on the side and
00:17:59
Speaker
For photographers and once we were there looking through the items they proceeded to ask me like a million questions about my workshops Where I plan to do future ones what companies I partner with how I get people to come how I get partnerships How much I charge how I figure ever I mean every little detail you can imagine just asking me and they made it seem really casual So I answered I mean all their questions that I can remember and
00:18:22
Speaker
Um, and not more than three days later, it may have even been as soon as like two days later, they released, um, their own workshop. They had never said anything about it before online, but on social media, they announced they were starting their own workshop series and they proceeded to release, do an early release of four locations and four workshops. And each location was the exact spot I had told them I was going to do.
00:18:47
Speaker
No, and even similar themes. Yes. And oh my gosh, I just, I was so heartbroken and I felt an, a level of defeat that I honestly can't put into words and I couldn't find the energy to do another workshop for months. And I did not, by the way, I did not confront this person. And by the way, they'd never rented anything from me from the closet, from the client clauses. So that was pretty.
00:19:08
Speaker
It was pretty obvious what their motives were. Honestly, I just kept quiet and my response was on my end, quietly learning how I could protect my business in the future without being grumpy or mean because I didn't
Building Genuine Business Relationships
00:19:20
Speaker
want to be bitter. I want to help people. I do love when these communities can come together in our photo editing world. I like when we can have a real sense of community. So I didn't want to be bitter, but I lost some serious business because of this. Oh, and on top of it, by the way,
00:19:37
Speaker
I found out about a year later through a woman who came to one of my future workshops, once I found the motivation to do them again, that that person had also been going around telling people that we work together and using my credibility that I had built up with my workshops to elevate themselves in their workshops. And they unfortunately proceeded to rip off models. I had multiple models coming to me and complaining just through, again, it's a small, it was a small town. So I had used the same model. It was another thing. They used the same models that I used and then treated them very poorly.
00:20:04
Speaker
And people were thinking that we were somehow, exactly. And again, I had zero interactions outside of this with this person. And so it was just, unfortunately, just hurt my business in multiple ways. And I had to start doing some.
00:20:18
Speaker
some damage control on that, which was so, so sad. So unfortunately, because of that, it really brings up red flags for me. If someone is the kind of person who will just outright ask for things for free, ask for free, not things for free, but ask for free information from me without even trying to have
00:20:35
Speaker
a relationship first or without it being a give and take. What you were saying before, Ayla, struck me so strongly just in the way that people want information, but there's no give there. I'm happy to give, but if you're going to ask to take something from someone, there needs to also be a give, give and take or real relationship. I had someone else call me once
00:20:56
Speaker
and we did a phone interaction and this person I had never heard of before, never talked to before, they called me on the phone, they texted me first asking if we can set up a time to call, they had some ideas for me, so we did. We get on the phone and this person did not tell me anything about themselves, did not ask me
00:21:14
Speaker
How I was doing who I was asked me to just get that would note zero attempt to try to get to know me at all. And again, we did not know each other and went from zero to 60 straight asking me how I did my again, ask me about workshops, ask me if I wanted to partner with them all workshops. This is someone who had never done workshops was.
00:21:31
Speaker
Not very prominent in the community that that they are living in anyways So just a big red flag for me and it's just so sad But I think that the real way you can build a community With the community over competition kind of a thing is by having real relationships in the community that you're in real relationships And that's how we're going to fix this Damage that's been done of turning it into a guilt trip circle. I
00:21:58
Speaker
Oh my gosh. I remember a couple years back you had roughly kind of told me that but I just I didn't know the long-term effects of something like that and I feel like the photography niche kind of has more room for that like idea stealing and stuff like there's only so many things you can really do.
00:22:18
Speaker
with editing but it's just it's so crazy to me that intentions like that are still out there because you and I are so genuine and at least do our very best to be I just I don't know I couldn't picture I couldn't picture that and it's actually I this just recently came to my mind it's kind of what you said about how you
Self-Learning Podcasting
00:22:35
Speaker
haven't asked for help and you've
00:22:37
Speaker
done a lot of the groundwork on your business and stuff, even with us starting this podcast, not you know, even a month ago, and the months before that preparing when Beth and I learned like, what kind of software you need, what gear you need, you need to host your podcast on something, it was this whole monster we took on.
00:22:57
Speaker
And we didn't ask anybody about it. We just like, could it have been easier if someone out of the goodness of their heart was willing to give us that information? Sure. I can name at least three people that I know personally who have podcasts that I could have gone.
00:23:12
Speaker
and asked about. And knowing these people, they probably really kindly would have given me the information. But I just, I was really uncomfortable doing that. I didn't want to do that. I looked up a blog post that was step by step starting a podcast. And that's what we went off of. Step one, this. Step two, gear. Step three, hosting. And we just went step by step through that. And it was a bit of trial and error. It doesn't necessarily mean things are going to be easy, but we both just agreed like we're going to figure this out the best way we can do it. We don't need to know how other people got their podcasts.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's unnecessary to go and tell someone, hey, I don't value your time. Can you spend time answering every question I have about this topic that they are probably busy working on too? And it wasn't that hard. That was another thing too is sometimes it's really not that hard to, yeah, there was trial and error, but once we got into the swing of it, that's just what you do. I don't know. That's just where our mindset is. That's just what you do. You look it up online. You can always ask Google.
00:24:12
Speaker
And Google is, you know, there's real people behind there that are giving that information away. We don't have to have someone who didn't offer it. Yeah. Yes, exactly. People have already, like you said, I love what you said before. When you said the information you find on Google is from people who have already said, I consent to you having this information. I want to help you. Those are the resources that you can go after first and foremost, at least sometimes obviously you have to ask for help, but anyways, sorry, I'll let you go on. Well, yeah, it actually leads to wonder flame in my next point, something cause so.
00:24:42
Speaker
The point that we're making with this is it's not wrong to need extra help. It's not wrong to ask for help. All of these things.
Redefining 'Community Over Competition'
00:24:51
Speaker
And our opinion in the fact that community over competition has been used to guilt trip photographers or really any business into not sharing their information and not being helpful.
00:25:01
Speaker
The point we're making is that there is absolutely community in this business and it's give and take and it's interacting with each other. And it's also kind of goes along with create, don't consume. Like you're not always looking for what other people are doing. I'm trying to apply that, this is a side note, but I'm trying to apply that in my like socials. I'm not always the best at it. Sometimes I need to scroll reels and just get an idea, get a trend so I can make a post. But generally I'm trying to sit back and think like, what do I want to create?
00:25:29
Speaker
I don't care if it's over six seconds long and it's not really going to get viewed. I don't care if the sound I use isn't the top sound. What do I want to make and convey about my business? So going actually into my points, something I've noticed about myself and my business.
00:25:46
Speaker
In the last few months, like I said, I'm a part of many editing Facebook groups. The main one that I'm in that aligns with my course has been an excellent resource. Like in the beginning, when I first launched, I was able to get so much help in the beginning of my career, especially like technical Lightroom help, how to find my niche, branding, client problems. Like I was in that group for all the things. I was asking questions. And of course, I was actively helping other editors with their questions too.
00:26:14
Speaker
all the time even now people are like hey are we still in slow season and how are people getting clients and i'm happy to share a few things like that because that's why i'm a part of these groups that was great for the beginning of my career but in the last five months or so i've started to kind of experiment with slowly easing away from going to facebook groups like that and just trying my own things to see what sticks like i said the course i took is built for you kind of down to the point of like
00:26:42
Speaker
what every page on your website will look like, your exact workflows, which is great for starting out, but after a couple of years in business, I'm like, okay, what can I do to be different? I'm rebuilding my website now because I want it to be different than the one I was taught.
00:26:59
Speaker
And I don't even follow photo editors on socials really. There's a few I follow because we've kind of been in it together since the beginning of this course, but I don't go out there and follow photo editors all the time to see what they're doing. I actually don't even want to know what they're doing because I don't want to be doing the same thing every photo editor.
00:27:18
Speaker
doing and I of course won't I won't bore you with all the specifics but I found myself being kind of less active in these groups and trying things on my own I still like to offer help if it's a question I can offer help on because I just like to do that but I I haven't asked a question in there in months because I'm just trying to come up with my own answers and try things out and you know what sometimes it's a miss sometimes the idea doesn't stick one time I held a sale in the beginning of fall and I
00:27:47
Speaker
got so much work from that I tried a sale at a different time of year and it flopped and it was actually it was embarrassing because you know I put it out there and nothing came back and I was like oh I guess nobody else knew that but for me I was like geez but yeah no no that's the reality of trying your own stuff sometimes but at least I got to try it without having to go to like a council and
00:28:09
Speaker
get approval on it. It's quite freeing and empowering to actually get creative and step out on your own. Scary, sure, but absolutely worth it. If you end up finding success in it, then you will be the person that people book so they can experience you, not a photographer that you're trying to be like, or a photographer that you DMed for 20 minutes and got some advice for. They want to work with you and what that means for you.
00:28:38
Speaker
I love that. And you know what? Another thing I would say is that creativity has a snowball effect. So if you try to have the discipline to do this, you're going to find that it gets easier and easier. And yeah, we all have slumps that we fall into where we get kind of like writer's block, but whatever the form of that is for social media and creators. But yes, I love what you're saying because it will just build on itself and it will have a snowball effect. And the more you do that, the more creative you're going to get.
00:29:08
Speaker
and wow okay so we know it's been a lot so far at least maybe it feels that way i don't know but i hope our examples helped you see what this can look like in action with our community and we're not here to just vent even though we are like a little bit not gonna lie
00:29:24
Speaker
But we're also trying to really highlight the downsides of oversharing about your business without expecting anything in return. And if you are a fellow photographer, editor in the industry, and you're relating to this, you're listening to this and being like, I have had some of those conversations or
00:29:39
Speaker
I am scared to give out information because of something that's happened to me. We want to help you. We kind of wrote down and brainstormed some ways you can, what we call politely gate keep, essentially ways you can redirect people to other sources and protect your business with love.
00:29:56
Speaker
Yes, exactly. This is where we're trying so hard to bring back the heart of the original intent behind community over competition because that is a positive thing. The original meaning of it, the original intent was positive. It has just become an undeniable negative with it being a guilt trip now, like the most common guilt trip
Politely Declining Business Secrets Requests
00:30:21
Speaker
in this community. Yeah.
00:30:22
Speaker
Yeah, totally agreed. So first off, if someone is asking for say pricing or specific techniques, this kind of happens a lot with my niche. How many weddings do you edit per week? What kind of jobs do you say no to? What kind of people do you say your style is? Like all these things and you don't have the time or honestly simply don't want to give them this information. You can kindly redirect them to other sources.
00:30:46
Speaker
telling them that you watched some YouTube videos, paid for a course, etc. And you can tell them the name of it because then you're also supporting the people that you got that information from. And if you're if you're utilizing and actively partaking in that information, the least you can do is refer other people to it to help those people. And again, build that part of community. I actually wrote down in our notes like a little
00:31:09
Speaker
mini scripts for what you can say. So if you don't want to give out additional information, you can say something along the lines of, Hey, thanks for reaching out. It's so cool to hear that you're interested in whatever niche in editing and that my business stuck out to you. I actually got most of my editing education from blank course and I highly recommend it. Everything is set up for you and gives you step-by-step tools to really expand your business. And they word everything better than I could. I can send you the link directly to it.
00:31:40
Speaker
something like that. I love that. I love that. You know what? And let's make those into some Instagram graphics and we'll share that so you guys can see that and save it for the future use. So keep a lookout for that on our Instagram after this episode. So I would say if you are kind of on the other end of that too, and you don't just want to give away the resources, you feel like you can actually help. Maybe you want to offer this information, but you don't want to give it away for free. This is a good way to know that you're ready to offer mentorships.
00:32:10
Speaker
Okay. And it can mean something small like just zoom calls or it can be full on in-person meetings. And this is just, again, I know not everyone's comfortable with that, but look into that. If you feel like, yeah, I do want to be someone who helps people though. Well, let's keep building up the knowledge in the community that time needs to be respected and people's effort and knowledge needs to be respected. So you don't have to give away the information for free.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, and I wrote a script for that one too. Okay. I did. So if you're considering offering mentorship to someone, which if you've been in your industry for
00:32:46
Speaker
I don't know what the specific timeline would be because people gain experience so slowly or so quickly. But let's say if you've been a successful photographer for like two years and someone is consistently asking you for your advice, I'd say you are worth it to do a 30-minute or one-hour call with them. But if they're in your DMs asking all this information, you can totally, again, hey, thanks for reaching out. That tends to be my go-to. Thanks for reaching out.
00:33:12
Speaker
If you're not opposed to this, this is something that I learned working for a more like, corporate job at one point, if you're not opposed, it's just a good way to say like, if you want to or blah, blah, blah, it's just a stronger way. But anyway, Hey, thanks for reaching out. If you're not opposed, I'm currently offering 30 minute or however long coaching calls where you can ask me all your questions and we can find a good direction for your business. You can book in my calendar, assuming that you have some kind of scheduler.
00:33:38
Speaker
You can book in my calendar and secure a call spot and my current rate is this per hour. Here's the link to do so. And sending them the link so they actually take that action. If that puts a bad taste in their mouth, you're not the problem.
00:33:53
Speaker
Yes, thank you. That's the way to say it. Exactly. And the more people that value their own time and that have these kind of responses, it will be more normalized as it should be. So that's great. And just mentioning in that message, like you said, I love that message. I love that template. And you can just stress like, oh, those are great questions you have. This is the place where you can ask them and where I will happily answer them.
00:34:18
Speaker
If you're in the same town, let's get a coffee. Let's sit down. Let's actually decide a direction for your business to go instead of a 20-minute DM conversation.
00:34:29
Speaker
Exactly. Which is never as thorough. Let's be honest. It's never as thorough. And honestly, um, kind of on a similar note, because I know sometimes in our world it's asking for locations and that's so tricky. I understand that. I really do. It's so hard to say no, but if you really don't want to give away those locations, you can just tell them you're sorry to, sorry to disappoint, but that you were given that spot by someone else and they asked you not to share it.
00:34:52
Speaker
something like that. It's hard to say no, I know that it is, but that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying to change the mindset on this and trying to get people away from the guilt trip that's happening around people not wanting to share information that they worked really hard for. So let's do this together. Yeah, absolutely. It's always okay to stand up for yourself and say that you're not comfortable giving away certain information. Something about locations, what you said just now just reminds me of the area where Beth and I
00:35:19
Speaker
grew up. We're in a small town, but it's actually surprisingly a very touristy town, and we've watched it grow in popularity over the years, which is great. It boosts the economy. It does all these things, but Beth and I watched a lot of our childhood spots get busy and get crowded, which is fine. That's the natural progression of things, but we can both speak from experience. We know so many places that would be great for photos and stuff that will never be an option because of tourism.
00:35:45
Speaker
So that just strikes an extra chord outside of photography for me, if you have a place. My mom and I actually, we have so many hiking trails and stuff that we don't tell anybody about just to keep them quiet for tourism's sake and preserving the land and all of that stuff. But that's just like
Keeping Special Locations Private
00:36:01
Speaker
a side note. But basically, you don't even have to
00:36:05
Speaker
Excuse yourself for not sharing a location if someone's like, where was this you can be like, right? It's gorgeous It's this it's this little spot, you know around this general area because obviously you're probably sharing the general area this it's it's this little spot and Yosemite I found it's nice and private For now, I like to keep it that way and if they persist because you'd be surprised how many people persist be like I am NOT disclosing locations. I am sorry to disappoint you. I really encourage you to
00:36:33
Speaker
to hike this area and find it. There's probably spots I don't even know about that you might find, you know? Like always trying to spin it positively, I suppose.
00:36:44
Speaker
Exactly. And kind of like we were saying before, as far as information goes with that, you just redirect people to different resources. The way you redirect someone for locations is you say, how I find my spots as I go out and I hike these areas. I bring like a day backpack with me and my water and my snacks. It's actually a lot of fun. I think you'll really enjoy it if you try it. And I love what you just said, Ayla, about you'll find spots that I don't even know about too.
00:37:08
Speaker
So, and of course, just saying it nicely. You can always say this stuff kindly. You can always say it kindly. Just reach into your heart. If you want to be helpful, if you're a naturally helpful, kind person, just lean on to how you want to phrase it. Yep, totally. And yeah, like Beth said, you can always phrase something kindly. If you continue to find your boundaries getting pushed, you know, it's don't be afraid to be firm. Again, not mean, but you can say, you know, if, if you've kind of
00:37:35
Speaker
explained a time or two that you're not really disclosing that much about your business. You've tried to refer them to the course, you've tried to book a mentor session, you've tried to do all these things and they're still persisting.
00:37:46
Speaker
I'm not one for ghosting people, even if that would be the more fun option to do, but you can just say, I'm sorry, that's all I plan on sharing with you. I need to get back to work and I will not be disclosing any more information about my business. And of course that would be like your wit's end response, but you're not a bad person for doing that.
00:38:06
Speaker
No, you're not. And I think sometimes people don't realize when they're pushing your boundaries.
Asserting Boundaries in Business
00:38:10
Speaker
I know we keep kind of going off on this, but it's also okay to say, I'm sorry, but I feel like you are not respecting my time and my boundaries that I'm trying to put up. Sometimes people genuinely don't understand that like they're not respecting you and respect is really important. And so just say that and they usually go, oh, I'm so sorry, you're so right. And it will also help them with their interactions in the future with other people.
00:38:33
Speaker
So, it's okay to also say that you feel like you're not being respected.
00:38:38
Speaker
Anyways, why Mike my drop like don't actually drop it, but you know you could It might drop exactly Oh, seriously, we we really wanted to get this out there because we want to really see this change start happening But all that being said We know that all of us from time to time are gonna be on the side of needing to ask for information I need to ask for help Whatever it may be
00:39:07
Speaker
Don't worry, we're gonna also share the ways we can think of that are the most respectful for going about that.
Respectful Advice-Seeking in Business
00:39:13
Speaker
So Ayla, I'm gonna start by just asking you, how would you say is the best way for asking for advice in the editing industry? What do you like to see? Like I said, I'm kind of blessed that it's less complicated than photography. I feel like there's just a lot more ways for things to get sticky with photography.
00:39:34
Speaker
yeah luckily i haven't been in too many precarious situations but if you're considering something like what i do photo editing for photographers and making that your career i cannot recommend this enough if you didn't hear me say it like 10 times in this episode i'll say it again invest in education if you're just starting out even if it's youtube education i see a lot of photographers who are trying to step away from photography and into photo editing and if you're already familiar with like lightroom photoshop
00:40:00
Speaker
Just put together a little before and after portfolio and get yourself into Facebook groups. And along with taking a course, if you decide to do that, get into Facebook groups for your editing. That's where you can find clients. That's where you can find editing help, all this stuff.
00:40:14
Speaker
See, there's a resource just there, Facebook groups. There are even, like I said, there's many that are meant to just be for resources and editing help. These groups may ask for your website or may want to see that your experience. So just be prepared for that, even if you have to put together a quick portfolio on something like Wix. If you do join a group and go to ask advice, be prepared to give it as well.
00:40:38
Speaker
I've been in a few where once a week it's kind of the same person asking questions and then you never really see them again. They don't get kicked out or anything, but it's just kind of an unspoken, like Beth said, give and take. Honestly, it's not the worst thing to reach out to an editor themselves if you're really stuck and you really trust their work, but just know your limits and don't try to get all the information you need from them. Don't try to build your business.
00:41:01
Speaker
from this one person. Feel free to follow their socials and engage with their content. Build them up, comment on their stuff, build relationships, share their work. Someone who feels like they know you and is supported by you is much more likely to help you out because you seem like a friend. However, with that, just because you are active on somebody's page doesn't guarantee they have to share anything with you either. You can definitely support and be a friend to them, but don't do it with the mindset of they owe you now.
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah I like that and that honestly perfectly segues into how I like to see this happen personally because personally I like to connect with other people on a personal level. I like to actually become friends and I like if we can maybe explore together if it comes to locations that you want to know about let's explore together let's find new places together
00:41:55
Speaker
Naturally, as we become friends, we're going to both learn from
Fostering a Respectful Business Community
00:41:59
Speaker
each other. It's always about the give and take. That's the biggest thing that has been missing as this has changed over the years. It's the give and take people just want to take. The other thing, I've had people take me out to lunch. This happened to me once. Someone wanted to take me out to lunch and pick my brain.
00:42:15
Speaker
If you're gonna do that, I'm just gonna be honest if you intend to pick the person's brain specifically at that meal at least pay for the meal You know, that's I like the courtesy there the respect. That's a great rule. Love it like if that's the main point of the of the
00:42:31
Speaker
interaction of the lunch, just offer to pay for the food. Let's see. Of course, I like to see mentorships. I offer mentorships and I like to do them if I want information or if I want to learn from somebody. I was going to say, sorry to interrupt, but you have mentored people. I've worked with you in a second shooter of yours before. You have absolutely invested that time into people before, haven't you? And had really good work relationships like that.
00:42:58
Speaker
Exactly I love that I really love that because even if honestly you work so well one-on-one with people like it's if anyone has tried to reach out to Beth but doesn't want to do a mentorship with her she's really good at it so we're not just saying like do a mentorship if we've never done it before Beth's done it she's worked one-on-one with people and taught them a lot like
00:43:18
Speaker
Anyway, move. Anyway, that's so nice. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Well I just, I enjoy one being one on one with people and you know that being said, it doesn't always have to be a mentorship but like I like those friendships.
00:43:33
Speaker
meeting new second shooters I have a pretty small second shooter list people that I like to work with every time but those people I don't even care if they're not teaching me things I just like people and I like having that friendship and I like being able to go hey I want to go on a hike will you go with me and then they they I have someone to ask and go with so it doesn't I don't have to be getting like receiving
00:43:56
Speaker
um, knowledge or information or tricks or secrets in return. I just like that there at least be a genuine connection outside of, Oh, what can I get from you? And I mean, I think we all, I think we all, if we're honest with ourselves, we all have felt that way at one time or another, and we all understand what that feels like. And respect is just like my biggest thing. So I just want people respecting my time and my money.
00:44:19
Speaker
and my knowledge. And then you'll be doing that for them too. You don't want to waste their time either. Yeah, exactly. So just remember that experienced entrepreneurs will always have a good reason for why they do or don't do something. Even if you choose to do it differently and even if you do it differently for the rest of your life, they have their reasons. So let's just respect each other's reasons and try to go about things the right way. Amazing. Everything like seriously so good.
00:44:47
Speaker
I that's all our notes that wraps up today's episode I believe that was oh my gosh yeah we've been Beth and I've been talking about this topic for not like a long time but a few weeks now but I've just been itching to do it since then and right we hope you enjoyed hearing this and we hope that it gave you some hope if you're currently feeling kind of lost in what feels like
00:45:09
Speaker
a slowly more so disingenuous phrase nowadays if you've been confused on do I share stuff? Do I not? Do I engage? Do I keep it secret? We hope this brought some clarity of we truly do believe in community with everyone participating in it and you are worth not being taken advantage of. We know you have probably worked very hard to get to where you are today.
00:45:32
Speaker
and you're worth protecting yourself, essentially. Yes, exactly. All good stuff. Yeah, we hope you enjoyed it and we hope to see people draw out the original meaning of this phrase to once again start fostering a community that respects one another and grows alongside each other. To hear more from us, visit us on any podcast platform or on Instagram at art of intention podcast. We would love to hear from you. Until next time. Bye. Bye.